Doubtful regarding non pet sorc build

RazielSR

So I was following alcast mystic build. I lack some netch pieces so I use Moondancer instead,with Julianos.

He puts Iceheart I suppose for the crit and he is not going monster set build.

My question is...so Ilambris is not that good anymore? Better going without monster set?

Is 5 julianos/4moondancer a good choice and replace moondancer by netch when possible?

Having stam templar/magicka templar/stamina dk/stamina nb/magicka nb still being better magsorc for pve?

Defilted

What did you find out when you tested the Lambris VS the Iceheart?

RazielSR

I havent tested both yet

Lorajet

I am also running Mystic, so would be very interested in what you find out about this.

I have a sorc running another build using 2 pets. I'm finding out:

1. Tormentor wanders off and doesn't do the job, but when he shows up it is helpful.
2. Can't slot enough skills to do a proper rotation, so bummed out on that.
3. 2 pets help with giving you enough time to try rotation timing.
4. But, sorta feels like I'm using training wheels with the build

s7732425ub17_ESO

I personally find that Ilambris won't proc enough to be usable unless you are running a fire staff and are using fire wall. But most Sorcs use two lightning staffs nowadays, so Ilambris procs much less because you are lacking fire damage.

RazielSR

Well that is true...now Im going lightning too...I guess netch is really needed with this build.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Ilambris needs fire and shock damage to be viable. The only place you are getting fire damage on Alcasts mystic build is Force Pulse, which in my experience is not enough to really proc the fire buff. It's also the reason you want netch with this build. It's designed around lighting damage.

If you really want to pull max DPS on a sorc, your will run a pet build with Necro. Ilambris and Maw are both viable 2 Piece sets with that build.

Lorajet wrote: »

I am also running Mystic, so would be very interested in what you find out about this.

I have a sorc running another build using 2 pets. I'm finding out:

1. Tormentor wanders off and doesn't do the job, but when he shows up it is helpful.
2. Can't slot enough skills to do a proper rotation, so bummed out on that.
3. 2 pets help with giving you enough time to try rotation timing.
4. But, sorta feels like I'm using training wheels with the build

@Lorajet
You dont run both pets. You only run Volatile familiar. There is nothing training wheels about it. It's the best damage on a sorc. You run Familiar on both bars. That leaves room for: Inner Light (front bar only), FP, Frags, Shield, LL, Blockade, Daedric Prey, and Mages wrath (or flex like power surge). That leaves basically the same rotation sorcs have been running for the last 4 patches.

Lorajet

@Oreyn_Bearclaw Thanks Oreyn. Appreciate the advice and info.

RazielSR

Well i have changed to pet build with necro+julianos+1 iceheart. Dont like pets but well...as Oreyn says...is the best dps magsorc build now.

Invincible

Pet AI is pretty bad, your theoretical dps might be higher but your pets are ususlly somewhere out in Africa trying to solo mobs .Mystic is a blast right now. Not sure I'm a huge fan of the apprentice mundus though.

RazielSR

Thats the problem yes...for testing maybe pet build is ok but when real game happens...can be a bit messy.

Anyway you want the pet active just for bosses so what they attack wont be a problem I suppose?

Morgul667

I have been looking for a good petless build for a while now

as i dislike the pets builds. If anyone has good results with a build, feel free to share

SoLooney

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

I personally find that Ilambris won't proc enough to be usable unless you are running a fire staff and are using fire wall. But most Sorcs use two lightning staffs nowadays, so Ilambris procs much less because you are lacking fire damage.

use scalding rune from mages guild skill lime

RazielSR

OMG...then what is the best dps build? mystic or pet? I think you can have more dps peaks with pet but not constant good dps as per mystic?
And u remove the pet annoyance?
Not sure now.

MyrddinEmrys

Morgul667 wrote: »

I have been looking for a good petless build for a while now

as i dislike the pets builds. If anyone has good results with a build, feel free to share

RazielSR wrote: »

OMG...then what is the best dps build? mystic or pet? I think you can have more dps peaks with pet but not constant good dps as per mystic?
And u remove the pet annoyance?
Not sure now.

The answers to these questions will be the same, sort of... Pet builds sound good, but they don't ever perform as well as they theoretically should. On the other hand, non-pet sorc builds can be calculated very easily and as long as your skill is average you can achieve the same results as the math. If this topic really interests you, I suggest reading this: tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/

The best answer I can give you is "It depends". What I mean by this is the "best" build depends on what you want to do. Do you want to max out your DPS for trials? Will you be running with a group? Or are you looking for a solo build? And are you wanting max damage for single target or AoE. If its AoE, you are in the right to use a MagSorc. If you want Single Target DPS, look to other classes and stam builds, at least at the moment.

Assuming that most people want to max out DPS in the case of trials and dungeons, the math says the best DPS build out there is 5 Julianos + 4 Infallible + 2 Ilambris (yes, even with the nerf). This is not hard and fast though because, depending on your skill, you may push past the point where Ilambris is useful and instead be better off using a 5th piece of Infallible (Currently my math shows the break even point at 23922 DPS, however I have yet to test that).

Regarding Netch's touch (because I see people talk about it a lot) - The problem with this set it that it only buffs shock spell damage. In order to compete with Julianos, you would have to have 75% of all of your damage output to be from shock damage in order for them to be equal. Anything less than 75% and Julianos wins. Now think about trying to really get 75% of all of your damage output to be shock based... We can easily show this is unreasonable by examining only the main spam attack of the magsorc - force pulse. Force pulse gives ~ 40% shock damage, 30% fire, 30% ice (it should be equal but the shock damage gets a buff from passives), also, on the average sorc rotation, approximately 50% of all damage comes from direct spell attacks (force pulse or crystal frags). We will entirely ignore crystal frags for now, giving NT the benefit of the doubt (since NT would not buff CF). Even in this best case, assuming ALL other forms of damage other than 60% of force pulse were delivered as shock, we still deliver 0.5 * 0.6 = 30% of our damage as non-shock, leaving only 70% to shock (and in reality it would be lower because of crystal frags, curse, etc.) and since this is below the break even point for NT vs. Juli, NT can not be as effective and Julianos, even in the best case.

There are other sets that can come somewhat close to Infallible, but the 8% damage done (if kept at 100% uptime in a careful rotation) on top of the 5% DD bonus to D&T monsters is just too good to pass up.

I hope this helps. If it is desired I could write up a more specific build guide, but that is probably best left to the experts.

Disclaimer & Credit: I am NOT an expert. The experts in this matter are Asayre and Decay, and credit for this knowledge should go to them, as I have only expanded on what they have done, not invented the tools or uncovered the math myself.

Cheers.

RazielSR

Many thanks for your awesome post.

I think I will stay 5 juli,4 moondancer and 1 iceheart.

MyrddinEmrys

No Problem.

I ran the numbers on Moondacer really quick and, as a 4 piece, it is 0.6% under-performing in comparison to Infallible (So it is essentailly the same). As a 5 piece set, even if you maintain 100% uptime on the spell dmage buff (nearly impossible, but good as an example) it under-performs by 1%, and that goes to ~4% with a more realistic 70% uptime. This in turn drives the break-even with Ilambris up to ~ 36k DPS. That being said, my suggestion is that if you are going to keep moondancer, stick to a 4 piece set with it.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Invincible wrote: »

Pet AI is pretty bad, your theoretical dps might be higher but your pets are ususlly somewhere out in Africa trying to solo mobs .Mystic is a blast right now. Not sure I'm a huge fan of the apprentice mundus though.

@Invincible
Pet AI is noticeably better this patch. They will now reliably target anything you do a full heavy attack on, so you really dont need to worry as much. The only commands I give anymore are recall, and that usually works pretty well. If you are not getting good results with apprentice, there is a decent chance you arent at the Pen cap, which would make lover your better option.

RazielSR wrote: »

Thats the problem yes...for testing maybe pet build is ok but when real game happens...can be a bit messy.

Anyway you want the pet active just for bosses so what they attack wont be a problem I suppose?

@RazielSR

Pet is definitely more damage any way you slice it. The usefulness in trash is even better because it's AOE damage. The trick to pets is to recall them when moving and once things are stacked, put down your DoTs, do a full heavy and the pet will go where it needs to.

Where some raid leaders get justifiably upset is when people dont recall pets and they stay behind the group and aggro adds that were never taunted. This is 100% a L2P issue, you just need to know when to recall them. No way a tank can taunt every single add in most pulls. This causes confusion because people think they are stealing aggro, which is untrue. The adds in question never had aggro to begin with. On bosses, this is a non issue.

MyrddinEmrys wrote: »

No Problem.

I ran the numbers on Moondacer really quick and, as a 4 piece, it is 0.6% under-performing in comparison to Infallible (So it is essentailly the same). As a 5 piece set, even if you maintain 100% uptime on the spell dmage buff (nearly impossible, but good as an example) it under-performs by 1%, and that goes to ~4% with a more realistic 70% uptime. This in turn drives the break-even with Ilambris up to ~ 36k DPS. That being said, my suggestion is that if you are going to keep moondancer, stick to a 4 piece set with it.

@MyrddinEmrys

For people complaining about pets, Moondancer is a nightmare to keep up in practice. I know people that use it, but even a 70% uptime is wildly optimistic.

dickeybarret

To say nothing that some of us want to play a sorc and not be forced into being a dammed daedric babysitter.

Invincible

@Oreyn_Bearclaw What's the cap for vet dungeon set ups now? I'm at about 13k on my dps bar. I did switch one stave to infused per alcast. Here's a screen of my current set up, self buffed.

I'm running a slimeclaw instead of iceheart and I do not have rank 10 undaunted yet on this toon., so 7 light.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

dickeybarret wrote: »

To say nothing that some of us want to play a sorc and not be forced into being a dammed daedric babysitter.

@dickeybarret
That is certainly a valid concern. I would prefer myself not to run a pet and it's one reason why builds like the mystic exist. That said, it's more damage, which is what many people are after. You also have an entire skill tree called "daedric summoning." Maybe a bit of an extreme, but would you suggest a DK skip the Ardent Flame line because he didnt like playing with fire? It is an integral component to the class. Choose to use it or not, but you must accept that if you choose the latter, you will pull lower DPS than the guy next to you with his pet.

Invincible wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw What's the cap for vet dungeon set ups now? I'm at about 13k on my dps bar. I did switch one stave to infused per alcast. Here's a screen of my current set up, self buffed.

I'm running a slimeclaw instead of iceheart and I do not have rank 10 undaunted yet on this toon., so 7 light.

@Invincible
Sorry, Cap for what? Not sure I understand the question. Not sure what you mean by 13k.

Invincible

@Oreyn_Bearclaw

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

there is a decent chance you arent at the Pen cap

Invincible wrote: »

What's the cap for vet dungeon set ups now? I'm at about 13k on my dps bar

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Sorry, Cap for what? Not sure I understand the question. Not sure what you mean by 13k.

dickeybarret

@Oreyn_Bearclaw your right, that's why I've given up the sorc after maining it for two years. But I have a personal thing with pets and forced playstyles. If mines worked they could be made into a very powerful petless build, but alas...

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Invincible wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw pen

Ah... The pen cap in trials and 4 man content is 18.2k. Getting to the cap should always be your first goal. It is the best way to boost damage until you are there. You should be getting help from your group. If you have 13k by yourself, you are over-penetrating anytime there is major breach (by 80), and even more with everything else.

Sources of Penetration that affect the group:
For Magic:
Major Breach is 5280, Minor Breach is 1320, Alkosh is 3010, Infused Crusher with Torugs pact is 2740, without is 2108. Major breach should be up 100%, Torugs pact Crusher should also be close to 100, Regular infused crusher, Alkosh, and Minor Breach are all reliable in the 80s for uptime.

For Stamina:
All of the above are there (fracture instead of breach, same values), and you also have Sunderflame 3440, and NightMothers 2580. These two can also be kept up close to 100% by a single person if they run both sets.

A stamina user should run with a bit lower base pen than magic these days because of sunder and night mother (only affect stamina), which works well because light armor gives a pen buff and medium does not, but the goal is to figure out how to consistently get to 18.2k with your group.

Invincible

@Oreyn_Bearclaw

So I should be sitting at around 10k pen before buffs in order to not over penetrate? Thanks for the info. I guess I'll switch my other stave to Nirnhorned then.

Betsararie

Sorc is a lot worse off in PvE than it was before.

The illambris nerf was a direct nerf to sorcs, they were the only ones running it. 10% is a big decrease so it is not good any more.

I picked up the new Mystic build too, had all pieces required for the build before the patch even hit.

The aoe damage is nothing like before because we don't have the pet, and since it isn't a HA build sustain is a big issue now, wasn't as bad before.

Honestly I would say ZOS has all but killed mag sorcs in PvE. Maybe now will be a good time to switch to tanking, you get faster queues anyway.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Invincible wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw

So I should be sitting at around 10k pen before buffs in order to not over penetrate? Thanks for the info. I guess I'll switch my other stave to Nirnhorned then.

In 4 man stuff, that is probably pretty safe. In a good trial, that seems a touch high for magic. If you have Major/Minor Breach, Alkosh, and Infused Crusher (not torugs) up at all times (not realistic I know), you only need base 6482 to get to the cap, after your light armor passive, you only need 1598 from CP or mundus. But again, you have to know your raid. If noone is running Alkosh or PotL (minor breach), 10k is probably about right.

On stamina, I literally run with about 4k base pen. I know I am going to have Major/Minor Fracture, Sunder, NM, Alkosh, And Crusher all between 80-100%. When all are up, you only need 462 base pen to hit the cap, but you always want to go a bit over because you will never have all of them up all of the time, especially on trash.

That is the biggest take away from this patch now that nobody runs sharp weapons. You need to coordinate with your group. If that is not realistic, I would error on the side of extra base pen.

As to staff trait, you definitely want a front bar infused staff. I am not 100% confident as to whether nirn or infused makes a better back bar staff. I like nirn because I execute from my back bar on a sorc.

dpencil1

I did some parsing today on pet and non-pet. Using Julianos+Netch I got 32k on non-pet. I didn't have great uptime on Concussed and was not super clean with the rotation, so I think 33-34k is certainly doable. I got better results with vMA Infused backbar instead of backbar Nirnhoned Julianos.

On my pet Sorc (5 Necro + 4 Architect, Infused vMA backbar), I topped out at 37k, but most rotations were 35-36k. Maw still does a lot of damage, even after the crit nerf. I tested on PTS where Maw is still crit enabled and got a 39k parse with 4.4k dps from Maw. If I subtracted the crits from the parse, I would have done 2.2k with Maw and about 37k dps.

Ilambris did 1.4k dps with the Lightning proc alone on another parse, so I think running back bar Fire staff with Ilambris (if others can cover getting to 100% Concussed uptime for you) could potentially net 2.5-3k dps on stationary fights.

Grothdarr is a pretty solid 1.5k now, so a good choice for stuff like vMA where you will be face tanking and everything is constantly moving.