Is it possible to have 'endgame' content without a meaningless gear grind?

Caligamy_ESO

I've been thinking about ESO endgame lately, or any MMO's endgame really, and they all have one thing in common. You do the hardest toughest dungeons for exclusive and difficult to obtain equipment, but what is it for? You just cleared what is considered the most difficult content in the game and got better loot, ..for what exactly? To go do lesser content faster in it looking fancier? There has got to be another way to motivate players to do interesting challenging content other than shiny gear rewards that are ultimately meaningless in the end.

I've seen a few MMORPGs out there that gate some amazing content behind the challenges such as story lines and whole zones which in turn them offer you more gear, but that seems like it is an impossible task in Elder Scrolls Online. Which is sad really, in those types of areas there is a certain intrigue and excitement at seeing what you worked so hard to finally reach. A true sense of exploration but that is nearly absent in ESO, as there is nowhere that you cannot go simply by sprinting past the hordes of mobs until they leash back to their spawn points. But nobody wants to have to unlock the ability to reach a destination in this game, or at least that's the way it now seems with One Tamriel.

I keep looking at upcoming DLC scheduled for ESO and it is in no way breaking this really old mold that's been used ad nauseam for 20 years now. Coming up we have Horns of the Reach which will offer 2 new dungeons, 2 new monster sets, and 6 new equipment sets spread out through the light medium and heavy armor lines. But its the same old story, we'll get those helms and gear then we'll stand around in it doing the same thing we did three months ago while we wait for the next DLC to offer up more of the same. The main challenge of it all is repeating it over and over again relentlessly in order to beat RNG.

Maybe it's just me and I am getting burnt out on the MMORPG model but I wish someone would set a new trend in this market and change things up a bit, give me a real reason to chase the carrot.

ccfeeling

NO

Keep_Door

The gear grind is part of the endgame.....

Are you new to MMOs ??


I didnt read your post just saying.

starkerealm

Generally speaking, endgame in MMOs means offering something that can engage most players for an hour or two every couple days. You're kind of expected to hit it once in awhile, and not burn yourself out. Of course, when you put rewards in front of players, they will grind themselves to a pulp chasing it. So, we're back where we started.

You can have endgames built around other forms of progression than just gear. Including achievement unlocks, or other systems. The problem is, MMOs are still designed around the idea of a monthly subscription, where wasting the player's time is money in your pocket. It's a fundamental element of the genre, and one that would need to be seriously reevaluated if you wanted to start over.

There are a lot of ways you could address this, including getting rid of gear entirely, but it would involve a complete reinterpretation of how to approach an MMO.

Caligamy_ESO

Keep_Door wrote: »

The gear grind is part of the endgame.....

Are you new to MMOs ??


I didnt read your post just saying.

Then why are you commenting? I wouldn't exactly go around boasting that you can't be bother to read for 1-2 minutes. Plus this isn't the kind of question one new to MMOs would ask is it?

idk

Granted, the RNG in ESO is atrocious, but I think it is a little much to expect we can get whatever gear we want by waving a wand around.

In ESO, like other MMOs I have played the top raiding gear is locked behind the top content, though for ESO. Every dps raid build I see includes a set with minor slayer which is only obtain able via trials and the best way to gear full gold is via gold jewelry for those sets by completing it in the vet difficulty level. The only difference with ESO is beyond one set from the trials we have much more choice for the remaining pieces and can obtain that via a myriad of ways.

In ESO the issue is the grind for the right traits, and for weapons.

technohic

Keep_Door wrote: »

The gear grind is part of the endgame.....

Are you new to MMOs ??


I didnt read your post just saying.

Think the question is why should it be. Accepting the simple minded idea that "its the way things are " is what keeps MMOs in this rut. Is it so hard to think outside the box?

MornaBaine

I like to have gear that helps me get through most of the PvE content. And I like to to be pretty. And to dye well. I long for the day that there is a true MMO sandbox and that what keeps you playing is new storyline content that adds to the depth and complexity of the world. I long for an MMO where every single character is NOT "the one true hero" but rather begins their journey in a racial home zone and has many possible paths to take from there. I felt like ESO was maybe headed in the right direction with TG and DB but have been disappointed with all other DLC. I keep hoping for similar DLC focused on vampires and werewolves and DLC that focuses on "the good guy" angle once more. After being forced to be the "good guy" all the way through the Main Story for the game it was kind of refreshing to see Ledgermain, TG and DB come along. But it's high time for the pendulum to swing the other way now.

So, in other words, "end game" which consists of just doing the same thing over and over again like a rat hitting a switch to get a pellet, is of no interest to me. An immersive world is what is of interest to me. I wish ESO were that game.

Caligamy_ESO

MornaBaine wrote: »

I like to have gear that helps me get through most of the PvE content. And I like to to be pretty. And to dye well. I long for the day that there is a true MMO sandbox and that what keeps you playing is new storyline content that adds to the depth and complexity of the world. I long for an MMO where every single character is NOT "the one true hero" but rather begins their journey in a racial home zone and has many possible paths to take from there. I felt like ESO was maybe headed in the right direction with TG and DB but have been disappointed with all other DLC. I keep hoping for similar DLC focused on vampires and werewolves and DLC that focuses on "the good guy" angle once more. After being forced to be the "good guy" all the way through the Main Story for the game it was kind of refreshing to see Ledgermain, TG and DB come along. But it's high time for the pendulum to swing the other way now.

So, in other words, "end game" which consists of just doing the same thing over and over again like a rat hitting a switch to get a pellet, is of no interest to me. An immersive world is what is of interest to me. I wish ESO were that game.

Yeah I get this feeling on occasion too, breaking out of the good guy shell on occasion would be nice. For some reason this reminded me of all the Necromancer wish threads where the main argument against it is, "You're the good guy, so this breaks lore." Doing something that truly lets players go down their own path whether good or evil though seems like it would just be an impossible task in this game. As every quest in this game is written and designed with only one focus, you are the hero and contrary to what you choose in your speech dialogues there is only one outcome.

It becomes glaringly awkward when you are a vampire in Rivenspire doing quests with vampires deciding whether they are good or evil and need to be destroyed, and the dialog doesn't account for your affliction in any way shape or form.

Electrone_Magnus

Its not possible since most people( endgame I mean) only play the game to grind. Like one of my friends ran vma 300 times and got his required weapons and then ran vmol 10 times maybe to get moondancer staff and jewellery and then quit cos there's nothing else for him to grind for.

Knootewoot

For me endgame is never about gear grind. In ESO for me PvP is the endgame. A never ending war which is fun to play. Sadly I do need gear for it and the best gear is dropped in PvE land. But I wear half crafted mostly.

I played many mmo's and mostly people think gear grind is the endgame. But I had lots of fun in those games without doing the same dungeon over and over and over and over again for some gear. But the game must have something else to offer.
For Warhammer is was the PvP, for SWG it was the sandbox environment and also to some extend Vanguard did that right. And ESO has PvP for me.

Mojmir

Knootewoot wrote: »

For me endgame is never about gear grind. In ESO for me PvP is the endgame. A never ending war which is fun to play. Sadly I do need gear for it and the best gear is dropped in PvE land. But I wear half crafted mostly.

I played many mmo's and mostly people think gear grind is the endgame. But I had lots of fun in those games without doing the same dungeon over and over and over and over again for some gear. But the game must have something else to offer.
For Warhammer is was the PvP, for SWG it was the sandbox environment and also to some extend Vanguard did that right. And ESO has PvP for me.

Pvp is a grind

MLGProPlayer

I like the idea of leader boards. Most top guilds do trials for that reason.

I'd like to see leader boards for dungeons as well.

Morgul667

I used to grind for BiS, now I have too many alts and dont feel like grinding anymore.

I now settle for the best performance/grinding time ratio

KingYogi415

NO!

Enjoy the journey, the destination is not as great as it seems...

UrbanMonk

1. End game gear grind is absolutely horrendous in ESO for sure but with that being said, the gear dropping from that content (while we've already cleared it) is to make content easier and then to compete for the leaderboard scores.
2. In my opinion (and I'm sure many would agree) if Jewellery crafting was an option here, gear grind if not absolutely over will at least be lessened by a lot.
3. A proper Transmog system with Trait Change option for weapons (and yes style change too) will be the last nail in coffin to the gear grind. It might need some tweaking as not being easily doable for everyone such as being 9trait crafter for one ( but it is not the time to discuss how transmog should be implemented) can be put so even though you have the weapon but with some time spent you can the gear you want.
4. BOP should be removed entirely. There are so many gear everyone have that they can't use or have no need to use but they can't trade or sell it because of stupid BOP system.

Earning your items / weapons is nice but isn't not grinding is what we were talking about here?