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Nos's "Mirakuru" BowBow Stamina Warden (Wrathstone DLC ready)

hedna123b14_ESO
hedna123b14_ESO
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EDITS:

03/07/2019 - Updated for Wrathstone

Race:

Orc

Attributes:

All in Stamina

Food:

Artaeum Takeaway Broth

Mundus:

Shadow

Champion Point Distribution:

Blue tree:

Master at Arms 66, Mighty 56; Precise Strikes 66; Thaumaturge 40, Piercing 42

Gear choice (Bow):

7/7 Medium Divines

5 Tzogvin's Warband (Weapons and Jewelry)

1 Velidreth, 1 Kragh (Helm and Shoulders)

5 Perfected Arms of Relequen (Body)

Use the following weapon traits:

1 Precise Bow (Poison enchant) (Ravaging Poison)

1 Infused vMA Bow (Weapon Damage enchant)

All Armor with Stamina Enchants. All Jewelry Infused with Weapon damage enchants.

Bar Setup

https://imgur.com/z7Xe0Vc

Rotation:

Pre Rotation: Netch

Step 1: Subterranian Assault>LA>Barswap>Endless Hail>LA>Caltrops>Barswap>LA>Subterranian Assault>LA>Barswap>Poison Injection>Barswap>LA>Bear Ult

Step 2: (LA>Subterranian Assault>LA>Lethal Arrow>LA>Lethal Arrow) x 2

Step 3: Subterranian Assault>LA>Barswap>Endless Hail>LA>Caltrops>Barswap>LA>Subterranian Assault>LA>Barswap>Poison Injection>Barswap>LA>Lethal Arrow

Step 4: LA>Subterranian Assault>LA>Lethal Arrow>LA>Lethal Arrow>LA>Subterranian Assault>LA>Lethal Arrow>LA>Netch (or if you are good on stam use another Lethal Arrow)

Rotation Video



Questions:

1. Why Bow Bow?

The base damage of bow bow is not too far off from the melee version of the build, HOWEVER with the Shadow Silk morph of the Trapping Webs synergy the Bow Bow build surpasses melee damage by a far margin.

2.Will this build work without the tank/dps using Shadow Silk?

Absolutely! But don't expect to be beating melee in damage if your melee players are decent.

3. How do we maximize the damage of this build?

Besides ensuring that your group is pen capped and has a solid Aggressive Warhorn rotation, to fully mazimize the damage output of Bow/Bow in a raid setting, you need a minimum of 3 Bow Bow players. 1 Player in War Machine/Reloquen, 1 player in Morag Tong/Reloquen and 1 in full damage as this build shows. Those three together would get a good Major Slayer uptime and would get the highly desired Morag Tong (It buffs Subterranean Assault/ Poison Injection AND Lethal Arrow). Additionally the two players wearing Morag Tong and War machine can guard each other thereby maintaining Minor Force on par with the full damage build.

4. Why bear Ult?

Bear Ult offers the most damage per ultimate use and also serves to increase stamina regen, because you cast the ult every other rotation.

5.Why Lethal Arrow and not dive?

Lethal Arrow averages a lot more damage per second than dive and the fact that it does poison damage allows it an advantage of being buffed by Morag Tong.

6.You let your dots drop off for so long, is it really worth it?

After testing, it seems that the damage of both Lethal Arrow AND Subterranean Assault is so high that it warrants the loss of DoT uptime.

7.In execute which DoTs should I prioritize?

Your highest damage dealers - Hail and Poison Injection

8.Why Infused versus Bloodthirty?

Triple infused synergizes best with warden (bear doesnt get affected by bloodthirsty) as well as the synergy of Shadow Silk.

9. Why do it specifically on a Warden?:

While all classes are perfectly capable of doing Bow Bow setups, the Warden in my opinion is one one capable of getting the most out of this ranged setup.
A) Outside of Injection Caltrops and Hail Warden has a hard hitting direct damage poison ability which is an instant cast.
B) Warden has the most ranged abilities in the game that can be buffed by Morag Tong.
C) Warden front bar is filled with 5 skills which passively buff overall damaget by a total of 15%
D) Warden bear hits harder than any other ranged ultimate options that other classes have.
E) Warden passively gets Minor Berserk, without the need to refresh skills and lose global cooldowns.
F) Unlike Nightblade, Warden can stay in range the entire fight offering a true range class
G) 3 infused on jewelry synergizes best with warden, since bear is not buffed by bloodthirsty.
H) Warden is the only class that can run War Machine successfully from range.
I) Should the target be 1 instant cast away and you may not have time to cast a Lethal Arrow, you could spam Dive. Additionally if you need to block cast during a certain fight mechanic, block casting dive is always an option, versus not casting anything because of the channeled nature of Lethal Arrow.

10. Parses and Videos:

Edited by hedna123b14_ESO on March 13, 2019 3:42PM
  • Azikiel
    Azikiel
    ✭✭✭
    This build is way worse than the DPS suggests, you are benefiting from major fracture while other builds don't while DPS testing and would be applied in any serious setting by someone else. This alone accounts for at least. AT LEAST. 10% of your dps which brings you back down to more like 34k which is below avg for the gear level you are at. A DK or templar would do better. Also you provide 0 group utility. LOL because of that this isn't even a good warden build.
    Edited by Azikiel on August 2, 2017 3:17AM
  • hedna123b14_ESO
    hedna123b14_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Azikiel wrote: »
    This build is way worse than the DPS suggests, you are benefiting from major fracture while other builds don't while DPS testing and would be applied in any serious setting by someone else. This alone accounts for at least. AT LEAST. 10% of your dps which brings you back down to more like 34k which is below avg for the gear level you are at. A DK or templar would do better. Also you provide 0 group utility. LOL because of that this isn't even a good warden build.

    Idk cutie;) 50s in trials with no sustain issues beg to differ.. but please tell me more:)
  • Mojmir
    Mojmir
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    Yay, reliance on world skills.like every other stamina build.
    Raising floors and lower ceilings by zos standards has created an iron maiden.
    No matter how well you played,when the game is over,the king and pawn go back in the same box.
    Be careful what you ask for from zo$, you always get punished.
    Call me toxic,your the one being slowly poisoned by greed.
  • SoLooney
    SoLooney
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Having a tank applying major fracture is no different than healers providing ele drain. the point of these tests is to simulate an end trial raid. tanks will be applying major fracture and healers with major breach. His tests are legit and this guys builds are legit, git gud haters
  • Mojmir
    Mojmir
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mojmir wrote: »
    Yay, reliance on world skills.like every other stamina build.

    which world skills?

    Anything not class specific is a world skill
    Raising floors and lower ceilings by zos standards has created an iron maiden.
    No matter how well you played,when the game is over,the king and pawn go back in the same box.
    Be careful what you ask for from zo$, you always get punished.
    Call me toxic,your the one being slowly poisoned by greed.
  • Alpha-Lupi
    Alpha-Lupi
    ✭✭✭✭
    If you want a good warden build to try out in your spare time, Give the Mighty Were-Warden a spin, it does get updated periodically when needed.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/351953/updated-introducing-the-were-warden-build-for-wardens

    also, some words of wisdom to work with when explaining a build @hedna123b14_ESO

    offer a little more insight into your build, give it a complete in-depth analysis & people will be more than likely to try it out.
    Xbox LIVE: Skullstachio

    Timezone: (+10:00 AEST) (+11:00 AEDT During Daylight Saving Hours.)

    Blood Moon's Champion Build:
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/443924/new-build-released-blood-moons-champion/p1


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  • hedna123b14_ESO
    hedna123b14_ESO
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    Alpha-Lupi wrote: »
    If you want a good warden build to try out in your spare time, Give the Mighty Were-Warden a spin, it does get updated periodically when needed.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/351953/updated-introducing-the-were-warden-build-for-wardens

    also, some words of wisdom to work with when explaining a build @hedna123b14_ESO

    offer a little more insight into your build, give it a complete in-depth analysis & people will be more than likely to try it out.

    I keep my builds really short. The main goal is to provide the absolute best gear set/ CP/rotation combination for the top 1% endgame player to use in trials. Thus it isnt targetting casual players or players just learning the game. I will add that there is absolutely nothing wrong with making those types of guides, it just isnt my thing. Thus I only leave the info in my guides that may not be common knowledge. For example I would never recommend to use healing morphs of damage abilities if the other morph does damage, nor would I ever recommend Selene as a dps set for trials. I also dont offer tips on why Redguard is best and then rank the subsequent race choices, I assume that the player is of a caliber to know that redguard is BiS. If any of the info is unclear people usually ask in the comment section and I reply promptly.

    Bottom line is I hate overly verbose build guides, so this is the direction I took:) additionally I have tried multiple rotations and approaches to warden and the one I have here gave me the most damage while sustaining well. If you notice the video I posted is a 6 mil skele which is a much better way to ascertain sustain in boss fights.
    Edited by hedna123b14_ESO on August 2, 2017 2:58PM
  • Mazbt
    Mazbt
    ✭✭✭✭
    it looks like dive was left off of your back bar for testing. Wouldn't that effect the dps at all assuming you have the damage passive from having an animal companion slotted?
    Mazari the Resurrected (AD)- PVP stamplar main, rank 43
    Maz the Druid - PVP group stam warden, tribune
    - many others
    ____________
    Fantasia
  • Artis
    Artis
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Azikiel wrote: »
    This build is way worse than the DPS suggests, you are benefiting from major fracture while other builds don't while DPS testing and would be applied in any serious setting by someone else. This alone accounts for at least. AT LEAST. 10% of your dps which brings you back down to more like 34k which is below avg for the gear level you are at. A DK or templar would do better. Also you provide 0 group utility. LOL because of that this isn't even a good warden build.
    Major Fracture is provided in DPS tests anyway, just like Major Breech. The idea of a DPS test is not to show what DPS you will have in trials, but to show DPS in a controlled reproducible environment. All classes are tested in these conditions, so you have an etalon you can use. So no problem with Major Fracture.

    It is also pointless to compare warden with other classes here. Compare this build to other stam warden builds. If this isn't a good warden build, show your good build and how much DPS you pull in the same environment. If you can't - then maybe your words aren't relevant. Then again, if there is no good build for stam warden at all, there's still interest in finding the best possible build, so there's no reason not to present this build.
    Alpha-Lupi wrote: »
    If you want a good warden build to try out in your spare time, Give the Mighty Were-Warden a spin, it does get updated periodically when needed.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/351953/updated-introducing-the-were-warden-build-for-wardens

    also, some words of wisdom to work with when explaining a build @hedna123b14_ESO

    offer a little more insight into your build, give it a complete in-depth analysis & people will be more than likely to try it out.

    Honestly, it has to be something in the middle. But if I had to choose between your build that has "in-depth analysis" (i.e. just you feeling that you have to write your opinion about everything and that people want to know it. I mean, you considered tanking, healing, and DPS monster sets in 1 build. What is this build even supposed to do? ) and a short build with a video demonstrating typical rotation and numbers that can be achieved - I'll choose the latter every time. But I get it, you're just getting more views for your build posting the link under another build.

    Also, the idea is not to convince people to try it out. The idea is to show how it works and people can decide for themselves if they want to use it or use another build that they can compare to this one (that's why showing DPS is must have, and your build doesn't have it btw).

    Instead of posting that link (or some irrelevant criticism like the first guy), you could post, for example, this

    and then discuss why numbers there are higher and which build is better etc.
  • KingYogi415
    KingYogi415
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    Shout out to OP for not only taking the time to build this rotation seemingly from scratch, but then be willing to share it with a community that has more mouths then brains.

    Having a flex spot for dive really makes the stam warden attractive for vet trials. I do miss bloodthirst tho, weaving three heavy attacks looks boring AF. Not to mention the time I spent farming vma to get said weapons...

    Cheers!
    Edited by KingYogi415 on August 2, 2017 9:12PM
    Lord of the Vale Templar V16 Master Crafter VMA VDSA VAA
    Fancy Tiger of Cornwood Nightblade V8
    Zedd Zorander Fist Order Sorc V6
    Unreasonable Lobster DragonKnight V6
    Lobster Boi MagBladeV4
    Thor Odinson PoisonKnight V2
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    Azikiel wrote: »
    This build is way worse than the DPS suggests, you are benefiting from major fracture while other builds don't while DPS testing and would be applied in any serious setting by someone else. This alone accounts for at least. AT LEAST. 10% of your dps which brings you back down to more like 34k which is below avg for the gear level you are at. A DK or templar would do better. Also you provide 0 group utility. LOL because of that this isn't even a good warden build.

    Ignorant comment that adds nothing to the convo. Good job at being useless. EVERYONE TESTS WITH MAJOR BREACH/FRACTURE
    Alpha-Lupi wrote: »
    If you want a good warden build to try out in your spare time, Give the Mighty Were-Warden a spin, it does get updated periodically when needed.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/351953/updated-introducing-the-were-warden-build-for-wardens

    also, some words of wisdom to work with when explaining a build @hedna123b14_ESO

    offer a little more insight into your build, give it a complete in-depth analysis & people will be more than likely to try it out.

    Nos has more current builds out there than anyone except maybe Alcast. All of them are vetted before they get posted with a lot of testing. Do you really need some deep insight about to the theory that went behind it? A good build guide has Gear/Bars/CP/Attributes/Race/Mundus/Rotation/Results. This has it all. If you need more insight into the skills themselves, read the tooltips.

    I am not one to criticize overly verbose posts, god knows I tend to ramble, but the guide you posted reads like a phone book mated with an encyclopedia. Furthermore, I see no results. I wish more guides would just get to the point.

    Nice build as always, bud.
    Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on August 2, 2017 9:18PM
    Alliance/Platform: Ebonheart Pact - PC/NA - CP 1,100ish

    My Toons:
    DKs: Oreyn ßearclaw - Dunmer, Bear-m'Athra - Redguard, Bearzilla - Argonian
    Sorcs: Beary Jane - AR37- Breton, Bearricane - Orc, Molag Bear - Altmer (AD)
    NBs: Bearclaw Oreyn - Breton, Bearblade - Bosmer, ßearblade - Dunmer (DC)
    Temps: Gandalf Likes To Party - Altmer, Bearplar - Redguard, Bearamedic - Argonian
    Wardens: Warden Bearclaw - Altmer, Bear Jordan - Redguard, Bear's Hippie Girlfriend - Bosmer

    vAS+2, vHOFHM, vMOLHM, vSOHM, vHRCHM, vAAHM, vDSA, Flawless Conqueror, Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
  • hedna123b14_ESO
    hedna123b14_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Shout out to OP for not only taking the time to build this rotation seemingly from scratch, but then be willing to share it with a community that has more mouths then brains.

    Having a flex spot for dive really makes the stam warden attractive for vet trials. I do miss bloodthirst tho, weaving three heavy attacks looks boring AF. Not to mention the time I spent farming vma to get said weapons...

    Cheers!

    Thanks! Also note that there are 4 HA...i tried with 3 but couldnt sustain on a 6 mil:(((
  • Mojmir
    Mojmir
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mojmir wrote: »
    Mojmir wrote: »
    Yay, reliance on world skills.like every other stamina build.

    which world skills?

    Anything not class specific is a world skill

    I mean thats how stam works...blame zos for that:)

    Exactly,I wasn't directing hate at the OP.ive used one of his other builds before.
    Raising floors and lower ceilings by zos standards has created an iron maiden.
    No matter how well you played,when the game is over,the king and pawn go back in the same box.
    Be careful what you ask for from zo$, you always get punished.
    Call me toxic,your the one being slowly poisoned by greed.
  • Amdar_Godkiller
    Amdar_Godkiller
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Feel like your CP distribution is not ideal for a stam Warden. 3 of your top damage-dealing skills (Subterranean, Endless Hail [albeit somewhat counter-intuitively], Dive) are driven by Master at Arms and Mighty almost exclusively, and get absolutely nothing from Thaumaturge; and since MaA increases damage faster than mighty, it should always be highest, with no less than 56 CP invested. SA and EH would be way under-powered with this CP distribution, and for most stam wardens, they are the top two damage-dealing skills in PVE.

    Personally, I like about 66 CP in MaA with another 10 in Physical weapons Expert because it scales so well, and because heavy attacks are becoming a much bigger part of our damage distribution. Then 56 in mighty, 56 in precise strikes, 6 in piercing, and 26 in thaumaturge.

    Rotation wise, I feel like you aren't utilizing Subterranean as efficiently as possible. It has to be cast every 3-3.5 seconds or you're missing out on a large percentage of potential damage, but I know it is difficult to sustain in combat. Nothing throws a warden rotation out of whack more than mandatory heavy attacks due to the need to fill-in subterranean's cooldown with as many abilities as possible

    Tip: Listening to music with a 6/8 time signature while practicing your rotation for Warden helps a lot, I've found. Tool's "Schism", the Animals "House of the Rising Sun", Queen's "We are the Champions", Perfect Circle's "The Hollow", and the Beatles' "Happiness is a Warm Gun" all work really well.



  • hedna123b14_ESO
    hedna123b14_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Feel like your CP distribution is not ideal for a stam Warden. 3 of your top damage-dealing skills (Subterranean, Endless Hail [albeit somewhat counter-intuitively], Dive) are driven by Master at Arms and Mighty almost exclusively, and get absolutely nothing from Thaumaturge; and since MaA increases damage faster than mighty, it should always be highest, with no less than 56 CP invested. SA and EH would be way under-powered with this CP distribution, and for most stam wardens, they are the top two damage-dealing skills in PVE.

    Personally, I like about 66 CP in MaA with another 10 in Physical weapons Expert because it scales so well, and because heavy attacks are becoming a much bigger part of our damage distribution. Then 56 in mighty, 56 in precise strikes, 6 in piercing, and 26 in thaumaturge.

    Rotation wise, I feel like you aren't utilizing Subterranean as efficiently as possible. It has to be cast every 3-3.5 seconds or you're missing out on a large percentage of potential damage, but I know it is difficult to sustain in combat. Nothing throws a warden rotation out of whack more than mandatory heavy attacks due to the need to fill-in subterranean's cooldown with as many abilities as possible

    Tip: Listening to music with a 6/8 time signature while practicing your rotation for Warden helps a lot, I've found. Tool's "Schism", the Animals "House of the Rising Sun", Queen's "We are the Champions", Perfect Circle's "The Hollow", and the Beatles' "Happiness is a Warm Gun" all work really well.



    1. Endless hail is not bufded by MaA, its buffed by Thaum.
    2. I dint use Dive except as a filler skill, its not even in my rotation...simply there if I need to hit something from range.
    3. I dont guess my CP distributions, I use Combat Metrics and Constellations addons which allow me calculate the best distribution based on my rotation and gear.
    4. Points in heavy attacks are not an efficient way to distribute CP.
    5. Lots of points into Precise strikes is a waste. With a nerf to thief and shadow, our crit is lower and we therefore we benefit less from boosting crit damage versus other damage bonuses.
    6. Subterranian with my rotation is cast almost on cooldown, so Im not sure what you mean.
    Can you please post a parae on your warden so that I can see what numbers your ideas are getting?
    Edited by hedna123b14_ESO on August 29, 2017 3:19PM
  • Amdar_Godkiller
    Amdar_Godkiller
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    1. Endless hail is not bufded by MaA, its buffes by Thaum.

    I tested it before Horns of the Reach, and it definitely only was buffed by Master at arms and Mighty. As I posted, its incredibly counter-intuitive, but unless that champion point was changed for HotR and I missed it in the patch notes, it gets nothing from Thauma.
    2. I dint use Dive except as a filler skill, its not even in my rotation...simoly there if I need to hit something from range.

    If you had 66 CP in MaA, you might use it more...
    3. I dont guess my CP distributions, I use Combat Metrics and Constellations addons which allow me calculate the best distribution based on my rotation and gear.
    4. Points in heavy attacks are not an efficient way to distribute CP.

    I'm only passing on what I've found from personal experimentation on my own stam warden.

    If you are heavy attacking every 3-4 seconds on average, and light attacking weaving 2-3 times between heavy attacks, then it's definitely more efficient than investing in thaumaturge to boost just your poison injection, trap beast, and (maybe) caltrops. A 10% increase to LA/HA will usually add 0.6%-0.8% total DPS to your rotation. That's more than you will get from other champion point possibilities at a certain point.
    5. Lots of points into Precise strikes is a waste. With a nerf to thief and shadow, our crit is lower and we therefore benefit less from boost in crit damage versus other damage bonuses.

    I don't disagree on this one, but if you are optimizing for trials in an environment where all the physical resistance debuffs are up, then you'll only really need about 600 penetration to fully penetrate, so anymore than 6 CP in piercing will be overkill, and with over 50 points in mighty and MaA, the next best booster for damage will be precise strikes. It affects all of your skills and assuming you aren't using the shadow, crit damage bonuses are stronger when you have less of it and lots of crit chance. This amount of CP would put your modfier a little under 1.7x without trap beast, which at 100% crit chance would be equivalent to a roughly 13.3% increase to damage done; more than you are getting from the same amount in mighty. With trap beast up it's slightly less compared to mighty, but essentially the two are equally beneficial for non-stamblades and non-stamplars.
    6. Subterranian with my rotation is cast almost on cooldown, so Im not sure what you mean.
    Can you please post a parae on your warden so that I can see what numbers your ideas are getting?

    I'm at work, so it would be difficult, but I'm ultimately working towards that. I built my Warden on my girlfriend's account and she had yet to reach level 50 on either of her toons, so I've only gotten to CP 240 on this account as of yesterday after starting this character maybe 7 weeks ago at level 1 She has just leveled her first character to max level on my account which is currently at CP 632. In other words, my build still needs optimization, but what I can do is post a video showing my unbuffed tooltips as I increase CP in Thauma, Mighty, and MaA in increments of 3%.
  • hedna123b14_ESO
    hedna123b14_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    1. Endless hail is not bufded by MaA, its buffes by Thaum.

    I tested it before Horns of the Reach, and it definitely only was buffed by Master at arms and Mighty. As I posted, its incredibly counter-intuitive, but unless that champion point was changed for HotR and I missed it in the patch notes, it gets nothing from Thauma.
    2. I dint use Dive except as a filler skill, its not even in my rotation...simoly there if I need to hit something from range.

    If you had 66 CP in MaA, you might use it more...
    3. I dont guess my CP distributions, I use Combat Metrics and Constellations addons which allow me calculate the best distribution based on my rotation and gear.
    4. Points in heavy attacks are not an efficient way to distribute CP.

    I'm only passing on what I've found from personal experimentation on my own stam warden.

    If you are heavy attacking every 3-4 seconds on average, and light attacking weaving 2-3 times between heavy attacks, then it's definitely more efficient than investing in thaumaturge to boost just your poison injection, trap beast, and (maybe) caltrops. A 10% increase to LA/HA will usually add 0.6%-0.8% total DPS to your rotation. That's more than you will get from other champion point possibilities at a certain point.
    5. Lots of points into Precise strikes is a waste. With a nerf to thief and shadow, our crit is lower and we therefore benefit less from boost in crit damage versus other damage bonuses.

    I don't disagree on this one, but if you are optimizing for trials in an environment where all the physical resistance debuffs are up, then you'll only really need about 600 penetration to fully penetrate, so anymore than 6 CP in piercing will be overkill, and with over 50 points in mighty and MaA, the next best booster for damage will be precise strikes. It affects all of your skills and assuming you aren't using the shadow, crit damage bonuses are stronger when you have less of it and lots of crit chance. This amount of CP would put your modfier a little under 1.7x without trap beast, which at 100% crit chance would be equivalent to a roughly 13.3% increase to damage done; more than you are getting from the same amount in mighty. With trap beast up it's slightly less compared to mighty, but essentially the two are equally beneficial for non-stamblades and non-stamplars.
    6. Subterranian with my rotation is cast almost on cooldown, so Im not sure what you mean.
    Can you please post a parae on your warden so that I can see what numbers your ideas are getting?

    I'm at work, so it would be difficult, but I'm ultimately working towards that. I built my Warden on my girlfriend's account and she had yet to reach level 50 on either of her toons, so I've only gotten to CP 240 on this account as of yesterday after starting this character maybe 7 weeks ago at level 1 She has just leveled her first character to max level on my account which is currently at CP 632. In other words, my build still needs optimization, but what I can do is post a video showing my unbuffed tooltips as I increase CP in Thauma, Mighty, and MaA in increments of 3%.

    1. Just tested it....definitely scales with thaum as it always did...
    2. I dont use it because i dont think its a DPS gain...as you mentioned above making sure that Subterranian Assualt is always up is key and you cant keep it up without heavy attacking 4 times...
    3. It does not...these things are not estimated or guessed man, they are mathematically calculated by an addon...
    4. Total penetration necesary - 18100
    Sunderflame - 3340
    Major Fracture - 5280
    Minor Fracture (80% uptime) - 1056
    Nightmothers - 2580
    Infused Crusher (75%) - 1581
    Alkosh (80%) - 2408
    Total pen - 16245
    Difference - 1855

    In my group we dont have a stamplar so our pen is short by 3k on easy trials...on harder trials sunderflame, infused crusher are a lot lower than 100%, so we are around 4k short...hence why CP is necessary...so not sure what you mean...
    5. I can tell you that in my opinion the skill, set and CP distribution is the best possible one, calculated and tested meticulously. But you are welcome to prove me wrong by posting a parse:)
  • Amdar_Godkiller
    Amdar_Godkiller
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    1. Endless hail is not bufded by MaA, its buffes by Thaum.

    I tested it before Horns of the Reach, and it definitely only was buffed by Master at arms and Mighty. As I posted, its incredibly counter-intuitive, but unless that champion point was changed for HotR and I missed it in the patch notes, it gets nothing from Thauma.
    2. I dint use Dive except as a filler skill, its not even in my rotation...simoly there if I need to hit something from range.

    If you had 66 CP in MaA, you might use it more...
    3. I dont guess my CP distributions, I use Combat Metrics and Constellations addons which allow me calculate the best distribution based on my rotation and gear.
    4. Points in heavy attacks are not an efficient way to distribute CP.

    I'm only passing on what I've found from personal experimentation on my own stam warden.

    If you are heavy attacking every 3-4 seconds on average, and light attacking weaving 2-3 times between heavy attacks, then it's definitely more efficient than investing in thaumaturge to boost just your poison injection, trap beast, and (maybe) caltrops. A 10% increase to LA/HA will usually add 0.6%-0.8% total DPS to your rotation. That's more than you will get from other champion point possibilities at a certain point.
    5. Lots of points into Precise strikes is a waste. With a nerf to thief and shadow, our crit is lower and we therefore benefit less from boost in crit damage versus other damage bonuses.

    I don't disagree on this one, but if you are optimizing for trials in an environment where all the physical resistance debuffs are up, then you'll only really need about 600 penetration to fully penetrate, so anymore than 6 CP in piercing will be overkill, and with over 50 points in mighty and MaA, the next best booster for damage will be precise strikes. It affects all of your skills and assuming you aren't using the shadow, crit damage bonuses are stronger when you have less of it and lots of crit chance. This amount of CP would put your modfier a little under 1.7x without trap beast, which at 100% crit chance would be equivalent to a roughly 13.3% increase to damage done; more than you are getting from the same amount in mighty. With trap beast up it's slightly less compared to mighty, but essentially the two are equally beneficial for non-stamblades and non-stamplars.
    6. Subterranian with my rotation is cast almost on cooldown, so Im not sure what you mean.
    Can you please post a parae on your warden so that I can see what numbers your ideas are getting?

    I'm at work, so it would be difficult, but I'm ultimately working towards that. I built my Warden on my girlfriend's account and she had yet to reach level 50 on either of her toons, so I've only gotten to CP 240 on this account as of yesterday after starting this character maybe 7 weeks ago at level 1 She has just leveled her first character to max level on my account which is currently at CP 632. In other words, my build still needs optimization, but what I can do is post a video showing my unbuffed tooltips as I increase CP in Thauma, Mighty, and MaA in increments of 3%.

    1. Just tested it....definitely scales with thaum as it always did...
    2. I dont use it because i dont think its a DPS gain...as you mentioned above making sure that Subterranian Assualt is always up is key and you cant keep it up without heavy attacking 4 times...
    3. It does not...these things are not estimated or guessed man, they are mathematically calculated by an addon...
    4. Total penetration necesary - 18100
    Sunderflame - 3340
    Major Fracture - 5280
    Minor Fracture (80% uptime) - 1056
    Nightmothers - 2580
    Infused Crusher (75%) - 1581
    Alkosh (80%) - 2408
    Total pen - 16245
    Difference - 1855

    In my group we dont have a stamplar so our pen is short by 3k on easy trials...on harder trials sunderflame, infused crusher are a lot lower than 100%, so we are around 4k short...hence why CP is necessary...so not sure what you mean...
    5. I can tell you that in my opinion the skill, set and CP distribution is the best possible one, calculated and tested meticulously. But you are welcome to prove me wrong by posting a parse:)

    Torug's Infused crusher?

    If thauma is moving it now, it wasn't before. I'll test it when I get home. Either way, it's still going to boost your DPS, at worst, on an even level with thauma.

    I personally put a lot more in penetration, but since you were optimizing your build for full penetration scenarios, that's why I went with lower CP in piercing.

    Also, I'm not guessing. I've already tested this mathematically and in the game, AND SO HAVE YOU. Look at the fight recap on your video. 14% of your damage came from light attacks and heavy attacks. light and heavy attacks make up between 5%-15% of damage for most DPS builds. That's 0.5%-1.5% more damage done with a 10% increase. It's basic arithmetic, and you're build would be on the high side of that DPS increase range. All you'd need to increase your total DPS by 1% is a 7% increase from CP to LA/HA.
  • hedna123b14_ESO
    hedna123b14_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    1. Endless hail is not bufded by MaA, its buffes by Thaum.

    I tested it before Horns of the Reach, and it definitely only was buffed by Master at arms and Mighty. As I posted, its incredibly counter-intuitive, but unless that champion point was changed for HotR and I missed it in the patch notes, it gets nothing from Thauma.
    2. I dint use Dive except as a filler skill, its not even in my rotation...simoly there if I need to hit something from range.

    If you had 66 CP in MaA, you might use it more...
    3. I dont guess my CP distributions, I use Combat Metrics and Constellations addons which allow me calculate the best distribution based on my rotation and gear.
    4. Points in heavy attacks are not an efficient way to distribute CP.

    I'm only passing on what I've found from personal experimentation on my own stam warden.

    If you are heavy attacking every 3-4 seconds on average, and light attacking weaving 2-3 times between heavy attacks, then it's definitely more efficient than investing in thaumaturge to boost just your poison injection, trap beast, and (maybe) caltrops. A 10% increase to LA/HA will usually add 0.6%-0.8% total DPS to your rotation. That's more than you will get from other champion point possibilities at a certain point.
    5. Lots of points into Precise strikes is a waste. With a nerf to thief and shadow, our crit is lower and we therefore benefit less from boost in crit damage versus other damage bonuses.

    I don't disagree on this one, but if you are optimizing for trials in an environment where all the physical resistance debuffs are up, then you'll only really need about 600 penetration to fully penetrate, so anymore than 6 CP in piercing will be overkill, and with over 50 points in mighty and MaA, the next best booster for damage will be precise strikes. It affects all of your skills and assuming you aren't using the shadow, crit damage bonuses are stronger when you have less of it and lots of crit chance. This amount of CP would put your modfier a little under 1.7x without trap beast, which at 100% crit chance would be equivalent to a roughly 13.3% increase to damage done; more than you are getting from the same amount in mighty. With trap beast up it's slightly less compared to mighty, but essentially the two are equally beneficial for non-stamblades and non-stamplars.
    6. Subterranian with my rotation is cast almost on cooldown, so Im not sure what you mean.
    Can you please post a parae on your warden so that I can see what numbers your ideas are getting?

    I'm at work, so it would be difficult, but I'm ultimately working towards that. I built my Warden on my girlfriend's account and she had yet to reach level 50 on either of her toons, so I've only gotten to CP 240 on this account as of yesterday after starting this character maybe 7 weeks ago at level 1 She has just leveled her first character to max level on my account which is currently at CP 632. In other words, my build still needs optimization, but what I can do is post a video showing my unbuffed tooltips as I increase CP in Thauma, Mighty, and MaA in increments of 3%.

    1. Just tested it....definitely scales with thaum as it always did...
    2. I dont use it because i dont think its a DPS gain...as you mentioned above making sure that Subterranian Assualt is always up is key and you cant keep it up without heavy attacking 4 times...
    3. It does not...these things are not estimated or guessed man, they are mathematically calculated by an addon...
    4. Total penetration necesary - 18100
    Sunderflame - 3340
    Major Fracture - 5280
    Minor Fracture (80% uptime) - 1056
    Nightmothers - 2580
    Infused Crusher (75%) - 1581
    Alkosh (80%) - 2408
    Total pen - 16245
    Difference - 1855

    In my group we dont have a stamplar so our pen is short by 3k on easy trials...on harder trials sunderflame, infused crusher are a lot lower than 100%, so we are around 4k short...hence why CP is necessary...so not sure what you mean...
    5. I can tell you that in my opinion the skill, set and CP distribution is the best possible one, calculated and tested meticulously. But you are welcome to prove me wrong by posting a parse:)

    Torug's Infused crusher?

    If thauma is moving it now, it wasn't before. I'll test it when I get home. Either way, it's still going to boost your DPS, at worst, on an even level with thauma.

    I personally put a lot more in penetration, but since you were optimizing your build for full penetration scenarios, that's why I went with lower CP in piercing.

    Also, I'm not guessing. I've already tested this mathematically and in the game, AND SO HAVE YOU. Look at the fight recap on your video. 14% of your damage came from light attacks and heavy attacks. light and heavy attacks make up between 5%-15% of damage for most DPS builds. That's 0.5%-1.5% more damage done with a 10% increase. It's basic arithmetic, and you're build would be on the high side of that DPS increase range. All you'd need to increase your total DPS by 1% is a 7% increase from CP to LA/HA.

    Our tanks dont use torugs. Thaum was always moving it...as for CP I said this above, I guess yoi didnt underatand, I have an addon that calculates the CP...its better than what you or I could do by hand....to clarify why heavy weapons is garbage you have to understand that weapon attacks only buffs you weapon attacks. On the other hand mighty, precise strikes and penetration buff all of your damage. Thaum buffs all of your DoTs which is quite a bit of your damage and Master at Arms buffs all of your direct damage including your heavy attacks...meaning each star buffs multiple sources of damage, while heavy weapons buff a single source. The addon uses an algorithm to plot the best fit CP distribution.
    Again parses plz...
  • Amdar_Godkiller
    Amdar_Godkiller
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    1. Endless hail is not bufded by MaA, its buffes by Thaum.

    I tested it before Horns of the Reach, and it definitely only was buffed by Master at arms and Mighty. As I posted, its incredibly counter-intuitive, but unless that champion point was changed for HotR and I missed it in the patch notes, it gets nothing from Thauma.
    2. I dint use Dive except as a filler skill, its not even in my rotation...simoly there if I need to hit something from range.

    If you had 66 CP in MaA, you might use it more...
    3. I dont guess my CP distributions, I use Combat Metrics and Constellations addons which allow me calculate the best distribution based on my rotation and gear.
    4. Points in heavy attacks are not an efficient way to distribute CP.

    I'm only passing on what I've found from personal experimentation on my own stam warden.

    If you are heavy attacking every 3-4 seconds on average, and light attacking weaving 2-3 times between heavy attacks, then it's definitely more efficient than investing in thaumaturge to boost just your poison injection, trap beast, and (maybe) caltrops. A 10% increase to LA/HA will usually add 0.6%-0.8% total DPS to your rotation. That's more than you will get from other champion point possibilities at a certain point.
    5. Lots of points into Precise strikes is a waste. With a nerf to thief and shadow, our crit is lower and we therefore benefit less from boost in crit damage versus other damage bonuses.

    I don't disagree on this one, but if you are optimizing for trials in an environment where all the physical resistance debuffs are up, then you'll only really need about 600 penetration to fully penetrate, so anymore than 6 CP in piercing will be overkill, and with over 50 points in mighty and MaA, the next best booster for damage will be precise strikes. It affects all of your skills and assuming you aren't using the shadow, crit damage bonuses are stronger when you have less of it and lots of crit chance. This amount of CP would put your modfier a little under 1.7x without trap beast, which at 100% crit chance would be equivalent to a roughly 13.3% increase to damage done; more than you are getting from the same amount in mighty. With trap beast up it's slightly less compared to mighty, but essentially the two are equally beneficial for non-stamblades and non-stamplars.
    6. Subterranian with my rotation is cast almost on cooldown, so Im not sure what you mean.
    Can you please post a parae on your warden so that I can see what numbers your ideas are getting?

    I'm at work, so it would be difficult, but I'm ultimately working towards that. I built my Warden on my girlfriend's account and she had yet to reach level 50 on either of her toons, so I've only gotten to CP 240 on this account as of yesterday after starting this character maybe 7 weeks ago at level 1 She has just leveled her first character to max level on my account which is currently at CP 632. In other words, my build still needs optimization, but what I can do is post a video showing my unbuffed tooltips as I increase CP in Thauma, Mighty, and MaA in increments of 3%.

    1. Just tested it....definitely scales with thaum as it always did...
    2. I dont use it because i dont think its a DPS gain...as you mentioned above making sure that Subterranian Assualt is always up is key and you cant keep it up without heavy attacking 4 times...
    3. It does not...these things are not estimated or guessed man, they are mathematically calculated by an addon...
    4. Total penetration necesary - 18100
    Sunderflame - 3340
    Major Fracture - 5280
    Minor Fracture (80% uptime) - 1056
    Nightmothers - 2580
    Infused Crusher (75%) - 1581
    Alkosh (80%) - 2408
    Total pen - 16245
    Difference - 1855

    In my group we dont have a stamplar so our pen is short by 3k on easy trials...on harder trials sunderflame, infused crusher are a lot lower than 100%, so we are around 4k short...hence why CP is necessary...so not sure what you mean...
    5. I can tell you that in my opinion the skill, set and CP distribution is the best possible one, calculated and tested meticulously. But you are welcome to prove me wrong by posting a parse:)

    Torug's Infused crusher?

    If thauma is moving it now, it wasn't before. I'll test it when I get home. Either way, it's still going to boost your DPS, at worst, on an even level with thauma.

    I personally put a lot more in penetration, but since you were optimizing your build for full penetration scenarios, that's why I went with lower CP in piercing.

    Also, I'm not guessing. I've already tested this mathematically and in the game, AND SO HAVE YOU. Look at the fight recap on your video. 14% of your damage came from light attacks and heavy attacks. light and heavy attacks make up between 5%-15% of damage for most DPS builds. That's 0.5%-1.5% more damage done with a 10% increase. It's basic arithmetic, and you're build would be on the high side of that DPS increase range. All you'd need to increase your total DPS by 1% is a 7% increase from CP to LA/HA.

    Our tanks dont use torugs. Thaum was always moving it...as for CP I said this above, I guess yoi didnt underatand, I have an addon that calculates the CP...its better than what you or I could do by hand....to clarify why heavy weapons is garbage you have to understand that weapon attacks only buffs you weapon attacks. On the other hand mighty, precise strikes and penetration buff all of your damage. Thaum buffs all of your DoTs which is quite a bit of your damage and Master at Arms buffs all of your direct damage including your heavy attacks...meaning each star buffs multiple sources of damage, while heavy weapons buff a single source. The addon uses an algorithm to plot the best fit CP distribution.
    Again parses plz...

    You're wrong about thauma. I'm on XBOX and tested it yesterday. Endless Hail got nothing from it. I will look into how it is working now after work.

    I'm only trying to give you some advice to improve your build, man. I think you've done really well with it, but we all should be receptive to constructive feedback because the goal is getting better.

    Here's why I disagree on PWE. 10% of 14% is 1.4%, so when you reach the point where it costs less to increase heavy and light attacks by 10% than it does to increase your damage done by 1.4% in some other way, physical weapons expert becomes the best CP option, regardless of what your add-on says.

    With 50 CP in mighty, you only have a total potential gain of 3.75% left to upgrade.

    In thauma and MaA, you have 6.25% more that can be gained after you've placed 50 CP in them, but they affect only some skills or a part of some skills. As you pointed out thauma gets nothing from LA/HA, but MaA does help. You're most heavily used skills will typically benefit most from MaA as well, and most of your DOTs will get slightly buffed by it on the initial hit.

    Precise strikes gets the sharpest diminishing returns as even with 100% crit chance, it only gets you an increase of 3.7% damage done with the final 50 CP. Realistically, it's more like 2%-3% (for those in the 53%-80% weapons critical range), and the number is less for nightblades, templars, and anybody who uses Trap Beast (which is everyone).

    The first 50 CP in Physical weapons expert for your build would increase your total damage done by more than the last 50 CP in precise strikes for any stam build. It also should beat out thauma on most builds because it doesn't affect the direct damage portion of an ability, but rather just the DOT.

    Mighty's last 50 CP are still slightly more valuable, as are MaA's, but once you get to 60, they are virtually the same. So realistically you want about 60 in MaA and Mighty, about 40 in precise strikes and thauma; and about 6 in piercing for optimization without ever over-penetrating in a raid environment.

    Once this is achieved, you will be getting a better return from heavy weapons expert. if you put those final 15 into it and MaA, however, you unlock the light attack 5% bonus execute damage though, as well, which is basically a free 1.25% damage increase to your light attacks, meaning you only need about a 6% increase from physical weapons expert for you to hit the 1% increase to damage done. At 9 CP in PWE, you achieve a 6% increase to light attacks, making it the best investment.
  • KingYogi415
    KingYogi415
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Watch him post like a 18k parse then still try to tell you how to play...

    Lol at people these days!
    Edited by KingYogi415 on August 29, 2017 7:20PM
    Lord of the Vale Templar V16 Master Crafter VMA VDSA VAA
    Fancy Tiger of Cornwood Nightblade V8
    Zedd Zorander Fist Order Sorc V6
    Unreasonable Lobster DragonKnight V6
    Lobster Boi MagBladeV4
    Thor Odinson PoisonKnight V2
  • hedna123b14_ESO
    hedna123b14_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Watch him post like a 18k parse then still try to tell you how to play...

    Lol at people these days!

    Thats the thing though...im not saying Im always right, but damn you have to show me that you have something decent...Ill even take a competitive parse on another toon, but at thia point its just a random person with no credentials.
  • Amdar_Godkiller
    Amdar_Godkiller
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    1. Endless hail is not bufded by MaA, its buffes by Thaum.

    I tested it before Horns of the Reach, and it definitely only was buffed by Master at arms and Mighty. As I posted, its incredibly counter-intuitive, but unless that champion point was changed for HotR and I missed it in the patch notes, it gets nothing from Thauma.
    2. I dint use Dive except as a filler skill, its not even in my rotation...simoly there if I need to hit something from range.

    If you had 66 CP in MaA, you might use it more...
    3. I dont guess my CP distributions, I use Combat Metrics and Constellations addons which allow me calculate the best distribution based on my rotation and gear.
    4. Points in heavy attacks are not an efficient way to distribute CP.

    I'm only passing on what I've found from personal experimentation on my own stam warden.

    If you are heavy attacking every 3-4 seconds on average, and light attacking weaving 2-3 times between heavy attacks, then it's definitely more efficient than investing in thaumaturge to boost just your poison injection, trap beast, and (maybe) caltrops. A 10% increase to LA/HA will usually add 0.6%-0.8% total DPS to your rotation. That's more than you will get from other champion point possibilities at a certain point.
    5. Lots of points into Precise strikes is a waste. With a nerf to thief and shadow, our crit is lower and we therefore benefit less from boost in crit damage versus other damage bonuses.

    I don't disagree on this one, but if you are optimizing for trials in an environment where all the physical resistance debuffs are up, then you'll only really need about 600 penetration to fully penetrate, so anymore than 6 CP in piercing will be overkill, and with over 50 points in mighty and MaA, the next best booster for damage will be precise strikes. It affects all of your skills and assuming you aren't using the shadow, crit damage bonuses are stronger when you have less of it and lots of crit chance. This amount of CP would put your modfier a little under 1.7x without trap beast, which at 100% crit chance would be equivalent to a roughly 13.3% increase to damage done; more than you are getting from the same amount in mighty. With trap beast up it's slightly less compared to mighty, but essentially the two are equally beneficial for non-stamblades and non-stamplars.
    6. Subterranian with my rotation is cast almost on cooldown, so Im not sure what you mean.
    Can you please post a parae on your warden so that I can see what numbers your ideas are getting?

    I'm at work, so it would be difficult, but I'm ultimately working towards that. I built my Warden on my girlfriend's account and she had yet to reach level 50 on either of her toons, so I've only gotten to CP 240 on this account as of yesterday after starting this character maybe 7 weeks ago at level 1 She has just leveled her first character to max level on my account which is currently at CP 632. In other words, my build still needs optimization, but what I can do is post a video showing my unbuffed tooltips as I increase CP in Thauma, Mighty, and MaA in increments of 3%.

    1. Just tested it....definitely scales with thaum as it always did...
    2. I dont use it because i dont think its a DPS gain...as you mentioned above making sure that Subterranian Assualt is always up is key and you cant keep it up without heavy attacking 4 times...
    3. It does not...these things are not estimated or guessed man, they are mathematically calculated by an addon...
    4. Total penetration necesary - 18100
    Sunderflame - 3340
    Major Fracture - 5280
    Minor Fracture (80% uptime) - 1056
    Nightmothers - 2580
    Infused Crusher (75%) - 1581
    Alkosh (80%) - 2408
    Total pen - 16245
    Difference - 1855

    In my group we dont have a stamplar so our pen is short by 3k on easy trials...on harder trials sunderflame, infused crusher are a lot lower than 100%, so we are around 4k short...hence why CP is necessary...so not sure what you mean...
    5. I can tell you that in my opinion the skill, set and CP distribution is the best possible one, calculated and tested meticulously. But you are welcome to prove me wrong by posting a parse:)

    Torug's Infused crusher?

    If thauma is moving it now, it wasn't before. I'll test it when I get home. Either way, it's still going to boost your DPS, at worst, on an even level with thauma.

    I personally put a lot more in penetration, but since you were optimizing your build for full penetration scenarios, that's why I went with lower CP in piercing.

    Also, I'm not guessing. I've already tested this mathematically and in the game, AND SO HAVE YOU. Look at the fight recap on your video. 14% of your damage came from light attacks and heavy attacks. light and heavy attacks make up between 5%-15% of damage for most DPS builds. That's 0.5%-1.5% more damage done with a 10% increase. It's basic arithmetic, and you're build would be on the high side of that DPS increase range. All you'd need to increase your total DPS by 1% is a 7% increase from CP to LA/HA.

    Our tanks dont use torugs. Thaum was always moving it...as for CP I said this above, I guess yoi didnt underatand, I have an addon that calculates the CP...its better than what you or I could do by hand....to clarify why heavy weapons is garbage you have to understand that weapon attacks only buffs you weapon attacks. On the other hand mighty, precise strikes and penetration buff all of your damage. Thaum buffs all of your DoTs which is quite a bit of your damage and Master at Arms buffs all of your direct damage including your heavy attacks...meaning each star buffs multiple sources of damage, while heavy weapons buff a single source. The addon uses an algorithm to plot the best fit CP distribution.
    Again parses plz...

    You're wrong about thauma. I'm on XBOX and tested it yesterday. Endless Hail got nothing from it. I will look into how it is working now after work.

    I'm only trying to give you some advice to improve your build, man. I think you've done really well with it, but we all should be receptive to constructive feedback because the goal is getting better.

    Here's why I disagree on PWE. 10% of 14% is 1.4%, so when you reach the point where it costs less to increase heavy and light attacks by 10% than it does to increase your damage done by 1.4% in some other way, physical weapons expert becomes the best CP option, regardless of what your add-on says.

    With 50 CP in mighty, you only have a total potential gain of 3.75% left to upgrade.

    In thauma and MaA, you have 6.25% more that can be gained after you've placed 50 CP in them, but they affect only some skills or a part of some skills. As you pointed out thauma gets nothing from LA/HA, but MaA does help. You're most heavily used skills will typically benefit most from MaA as well, and most of your DOTs will get slightly buffed by it on the initial hit.

    Precise strikes gets the sharpest diminishing returns as even with 100% crit chance, it only gets you an increase of 3.7% damage done with the final 50 CP. Realistically, it's more like 2%-3% (for those in the 53%-80% weapons critical range), and the number is less for nightblades, templars, and anybody who uses Trap Beast (which is everyone).

    The first 50 CP in Physical weapons expert for your build would increase your total damage done by more than the last 50 CP in precise strikes for any stam build. It also should beat out thauma on most builds because it doesn't affect the direct damage portion of an ability, but rather just the DOT.

    Mighty's last 50 CP are still slightly more valuable, as are MaA's, but once you get to 60, they are virtually the same. So realistically you want about 60 in MaA and Mighty, about 40 in precise strikes and thauma; and about 6 in piercing for optimization without ever over-penetrating in a raid environment.

    Once this is achieved, you will be getting a better return from heavy weapons expert. if you put those final 15 into it and MaA, however, you unlock the light attack 5% bonus execute damage though, as well, which is basically a free 1.25% damage increase to your light attacks, meaning you only need about a 6% increase from physical weapons expert for you to hit the 1% increase to damage done. At 9 CP in PWE, you achieve a 6% increase to light attacks, making it the best investment.

    As soon as you said that you are on xbox you were done...and not because I think that PC players are better...because you dont have any tools that helps you understand damage and therefore proper CP distribution..
    As far as giving me a way to improve my build, you should start by showing me proof that your opinion is worthy of consideration. I have played the game since beta, and have a buid for every class with competitive parses. If you would like me to listen to you please post any evidence of the fact that you know what you are talking about. This may be coming off as insulting but Im honestly not trying to do that...if you post a 40k parse on a 6 mil skeleton I promise Ill try any suggestions you make...until that happens I will assume that you have no idea what you are talking about. As far as Cp suggestions...yet again for the 5th time now...I have a computer algorithm that calculates the optimal CP...im not sure how to explain to you that a computer is better than you at calculating things...

    I don't have any tools... but you do, and based on your own tools which show that you deal 14% of your damage from LA/HA, you're CP optimizer is incorrect. I have max level characters of every class except Templar and have been playing since console release. I only have the 55 million HP dummy, but I'll see what I can do DPS wise at 240 CP with my 30K+ crit subterranean assault, and post a clip with it as well as the tooltip effects of Warden skills based on different CP distributions.
  • hedna123b14_ESO
    hedna123b14_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    1. Endless hail is not bufded by MaA, its buffes by Thaum.

    I tested it before Horns of the Reach, and it definitely only was buffed by Master at arms and Mighty. As I posted, its incredibly counter-intuitive, but unless that champion point was changed for HotR and I missed it in the patch notes, it gets nothing from Thauma.
    2. I dint use Dive except as a filler skill, its not even in my rotation...simoly there if I need to hit something from range.

    If you had 66 CP in MaA, you might use it more...
    3. I dont guess my CP distributions, I use Combat Metrics and Constellations addons which allow me calculate the best distribution based on my rotation and gear.
    4. Points in heavy attacks are not an efficient way to distribute CP.

    I'm only passing on what I've found from personal experimentation on my own stam warden.

    If you are heavy attacking every 3-4 seconds on average, and light attacking weaving 2-3 times between heavy attacks, then it's definitely more efficient than investing in thaumaturge to boost just your poison injection, trap beast, and (maybe) caltrops. A 10% increase to LA/HA will usually add 0.6%-0.8% total DPS to your rotation. That's more than you will get from other champion point possibilities at a certain point.
    5. Lots of points into Precise strikes is a waste. With a nerf to thief and shadow, our crit is lower and we therefore benefit less from boost in crit damage versus other damage bonuses.

    I don't disagree on this one, but if you are optimizing for trials in an environment where all the physical resistance debuffs are up, then you'll only really need about 600 penetration to fully penetrate, so anymore than 6 CP in piercing will be overkill, and with over 50 points in mighty and MaA, the next best booster for damage will be precise strikes. It affects all of your skills and assuming you aren't using the shadow, crit damage bonuses are stronger when you have less of it and lots of crit chance. This amount of CP would put your modfier a little under 1.7x without trap beast, which at 100% crit chance would be equivalent to a roughly 13.3% increase to damage done; more than you are getting from the same amount in mighty. With trap beast up it's slightly less compared to mighty, but essentially the two are equally beneficial for non-stamblades and non-stamplars.
    6. Subterranian with my rotation is cast almost on cooldown, so Im not sure what you mean.
    Can you please post a parae on your warden so that I can see what numbers your ideas are getting?

    I'm at work, so it would be difficult, but I'm ultimately working towards that. I built my Warden on my girlfriend's account and she had yet to reach level 50 on either of her toons, so I've only gotten to CP 240 on this account as of yesterday after starting this character maybe 7 weeks ago at level 1 She has just leveled her first character to max level on my account which is currently at CP 632. In other words, my build still needs optimization, but what I can do is post a video showing my unbuffed tooltips as I increase CP in Thauma, Mighty, and MaA in increments of 3%.

    1. Just tested it....definitely scales with thaum as it always did...
    2. I dont use it because i dont think its a DPS gain...as you mentioned above making sure that Subterranian Assualt is always up is key and you cant keep it up without heavy attacking 4 times...
    3. It does not...these things are not estimated or guessed man, they are mathematically calculated by an addon...
    4. Total penetration necesary - 18100
    Sunderflame - 3340
    Major Fracture - 5280
    Minor Fracture (80% uptime) - 1056
    Nightmothers - 2580
    Infused Crusher (75%) - 1581
    Alkosh (80%) - 2408
    Total pen - 16245
    Difference - 1855

    In my group we dont have a stamplar so our pen is short by 3k on easy trials...on harder trials sunderflame, infused crusher are a lot lower than 100%, so we are around 4k short...hence why CP is necessary...so not sure what you mean...
    5. I can tell you that in my opinion the skill, set and CP distribution is the best possible one, calculated and tested meticulously. But you are welcome to prove me wrong by posting a parse:)

    Torug's Infused crusher?

    If thauma is moving it now, it wasn't before. I'll test it when I get home. Either way, it's still going to boost your DPS, at worst, on an even level with thauma.

    I personally put a lot more in penetration, but since you were optimizing your build for full penetration scenarios, that's why I went with lower CP in piercing.

    Also, I'm not guessing. I've already tested this mathematically and in the game, AND SO HAVE YOU. Look at the fight recap on your video. 14% of your damage came from light attacks and heavy attacks. light and heavy attacks make up between 5%-15% of damage for most DPS builds. That's 0.5%-1.5% more damage done with a 10% increase. It's basic arithmetic, and you're build would be on the high side of that DPS increase range. All you'd need to increase your total DPS by 1% is a 7% increase from CP to LA/HA.

    Our tanks dont use torugs. Thaum was always moving it...as for CP I said this above, I guess yoi didnt underatand, I have an addon that calculates the CP...its better than what you or I could do by hand....to clarify why heavy weapons is garbage you have to understand that weapon attacks only buffs you weapon attacks. On the other hand mighty, precise strikes and penetration buff all of your damage. Thaum buffs all of your DoTs which is quite a bit of your damage and Master at Arms buffs all of your direct damage including your heavy attacks...meaning each star buffs multiple sources of damage, while heavy weapons buff a single source. The addon uses an algorithm to plot the best fit CP distribution.
    Again parses plz...

    You're wrong about thauma. I'm on XBOX and tested it yesterday. Endless Hail got nothing from it. I will look into how it is working now after work.

    I'm only trying to give you some advice to improve your build, man. I think you've done really well with it, but we all should be receptive to constructive feedback because the goal is getting better.

    Here's why I disagree on PWE. 10% of 14% is 1.4%, so when you reach the point where it costs less to increase heavy and light attacks by 10% than it does to increase your damage done by 1.4% in some other way, physical weapons expert becomes the best CP option, regardless of what your add-on says.

    With 50 CP in mighty, you only have a total potential gain of 3.75% left to upgrade.

    In thauma and MaA, you have 6.25% more that can be gained after you've placed 50 CP in them, but they affect only some skills or a part of some skills. As you pointed out thauma gets nothing from LA/HA, but MaA does help. You're most heavily used skills will typically benefit most from MaA as well, and most of your DOTs will get slightly buffed by it on the initial hit.

    Precise strikes gets the sharpest diminishing returns as even with 100% crit chance, it only gets you an increase of 3.7% damage done with the final 50 CP. Realistically, it's more like 2%-3% (for those in the 53%-80% weapons critical range), and the number is less for nightblades, templars, and anybody who uses Trap Beast (which is everyone).

    The first 50 CP in Physical weapons expert for your build would increase your total damage done by more than the last 50 CP in precise strikes for any stam build. It also should beat out thauma on most builds because it doesn't affect the direct damage portion of an ability, but rather just the DOT.

    Mighty's last 50 CP are still slightly more valuable, as are MaA's, but once you get to 60, they are virtually the same. So realistically you want about 60 in MaA and Mighty, about 40 in precise strikes and thauma; and about 6 in piercing for optimization without ever over-penetrating in a raid environment.

    Once this is achieved, you will be getting a better return from heavy weapons expert. if you put those final 15 into it and MaA, however, you unlock the light attack 5% bonus execute damage though, as well, which is basically a free 1.25% damage increase to your light attacks, meaning you only need about a 6% increase from physical weapons expert for you to hit the 1% increase to damage done. At 9 CP in PWE, you achieve a 6% increase to light attacks, making it the best investment.

    As soon as you said that you are on xbox you were done...and not because I think that PC players are better...because you dont have any tools that helps you understand damage and therefore proper CP distribution..
    As far as giving me a way to improve my build, you should start by showing me proof that your opinion is worthy of consideration. I have played the game since beta, and have a buid for every class with competitive parses. If you would like me to listen to you please post any evidence of the fact that you know what you are talking about. This may be coming off as insulting but Im honestly not trying to do that...if you post a 40k parse on a 6 mil skeleton I promise Ill try any suggestions you make...until that happens I will assume that you have no idea what you are talking about. As far as Cp suggestions...yet again for the 5th time now...I have a computer algorithm that calculates the optimal CP...im not sure how to explain to you that a computer is better than you at calculating things...

    I don't have any tools... but you do, and based on your own tools which show that you deal 14% of your damage from LA/HA, you're CP optimizer is incorrect. I have max level characters of every class except Templar and have been playing since console release. I only have the 55 million HP dummy, but I'll see what I can do DPS wise at 240 CP with my 30K+ crit subterranean assault, and post a clip with it as well as the tooltip effects of Warden skills based on different CP distributions.

    I anxiously await your video
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