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Thief Mundus+Recovery Glyph vs Damage Glyph+Serpent Mundus

Vapirko
Vapirko
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This is in no cp. I'm currently at 1900 stam regen, and I've got a wpn damage glyph on one jewelry piece and using the serpent mundus. My crit is very low, around 20. My question is, would I get potentially more damage swapping to thief mundus and using a stam recovery glyph on that last piece of jewelry to make up for the loss of Serpent?
  • Koensol
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    Difficult to say. Bit I think your consistency on dmg would go down, because you rely more on crit than weap dmg. But it would need to be tested.

    I'd go for serpent mundus. Then go for mag & stam recovery drink or max health+mag & stam recovery food. Depending on how many magicka buffs/utility you use. Then put all your glyphs in weap dmg. Then you need to get a set that boosts your crit rating to an acceptable level. I personally use senche's bite for this purpose, because it gives both crit and weapon damage. This way you'll get really good regen, potentially very high weapon dmg and a okay crit rating. I think this is the best way to go for an alround build with good damage and sustain.
    Edited by Koensol on June 30, 2017 11:59AM
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
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    Koensol wrote: »
    Difficult to say. Bit I think your consistency on dmg would go down, because you rely more on crit than weap dmg. But it would need to be tested.

    I'd go for serpent mundus. Then go for mag & stam recovery drink or max health+mag & stam recovery food. Depending on how many magicka buffs/utility you use. Then put all your glyphs in weap dmg. Then you need to get a set that boosts your crit rating to an acceptable level. I personally use senche's bite for this purpose, because it gives both crit and weapon damage. This way you'll get really good regen, potentially very high weapon dmg and a okay crit rating. I think this is the best way to go for an alround build with good damage and sustain.

    What's an acceptable crit level for pvp? It seems that in no cp it's just always pretty low especially on a 2h.
  • Brutusmax1mus
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    Thief is just so efficient. It gives 4 set bonuses worth of a stat. Serpent is only 1.5. Get your regen from a set like bone pirates and use thief. I too like more recovery, but don't underestimate cost reduction glyphs. They are a massive percent of each stamina skill cost.
  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    Thief is better than the 174 weapon damage, so yes, use a recovery glyph with the Thief.
    Edited by Izaki on June 30, 2017 2:10PM
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  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
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    Thief is just so efficient. It gives 4 set bonuses worth of a stat. Serpent is only 1.5. Get your regen from a set like bone pirates and use thief. I too like more recovery, but don't underestimate cost reduction glyphs. They are a massive percent of each stamina skill cost.

    Will do, I've only ever tried regen glyphs as apposed to cost reduction.
  • Koensol
    Koensol
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    Vapirko wrote: »
    Koensol wrote: »
    Difficult to say. Bit I think your consistency on dmg would go down, because you rely more on crit than weap dmg. But it would need to be tested.

    I'd go for serpent mundus. Then go for mag & stam recovery drink or max health+mag & stam recovery food. Depending on how many magicka buffs/utility you use. Then put all your glyphs in weap dmg. Then you need to get a set that boosts your crit rating to an acceptable level. I personally use senche's bite for this purpose, because it gives both crit and weapon damage. This way you'll get really good regen, potentially very high weapon dmg and a okay crit rating. I think this is the best way to go for an alround build with good damage and sustain.

    What's an acceptable crit level for pvp? It seems that in no cp it's just always pretty low especially on a 2h.
    I'd say anywhere above 30% is acceptable for non cp. As a nb this would be a bit higher. Like the other said, thief is nice. I have used it too for the longest time. But with the right sets you don't really need it imo, especially on nb. It's just that with the setup I posted, your stats will be very good all around. Killer regen and can get up to 4k weap dmg of you also add 1 weap dmg enchant to your weapon. It has no real weakness in terms of stats, except for maybe max stam being a bit lower on non cp. But your regen makes up for that.

    Of course you can run bone pirate for the regen, but I like to have more utility from my sets and bone pirate is just a stat buffer. All a matter of taste. Luckily we have more than 1 option ;)

  • Malamar1229
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    Thief is just so efficient. It gives 4 set bonuses worth of a stat. Serpent is only 1.5. Get your regen from a set like bone pirates and use thief. I too like more recovery, but don't underestimate cost reduction glyphs. They are a massive percent of each stamina skill cost.

    For a playstyle that involves spamming a skill/second (like my magicka sorc) I found one cost reduction glyph to be about as powerful as the seducers 5pc bonus (8% reduction) based on an avg 3k cost spell (comes to 240 cost reduction or approx 480 Magicka regen value)
  • Minno
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    Thief is just so efficient. It gives 4 set bonuses worth of a stat. Serpent is only 1.5. Get your regen from a set like bone pirates and use thief. I too like more recovery, but don't underestimate cost reduction glyphs. They are a massive percent of each stamina skill cost.

    For a playstyle that involves spamming a skill/second (like my magicka sorc) I found one cost reduction glyph to be about as powerful as the seducers 5pc bonus (8% reduction) based on an avg 3k cost spell (comes to 240 cost reduction or approx 480 Magicka regen value)

    This was my take as well! That cost reduction is hard to find in anything less than a 5pc so it makes sense to swap your dmg enchants for cost of you need sustain.
  • glavius
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    Thief value is reasonably easily calculated. On no cp, you can probably assume that on average you will do 25% more dmg on a crit (more vs. scrubs, but no increase vs. shields., and 50% more heal on a crit heal). This means a 2.75% dmg increase.
    Now compare this to weapon damage value you will get by going serpent+weapon dmg, which will increase damage by a fixed value. If the fixed value increase gives more than the % increase, serpent is better for you. (but bear in mind heals are affected more by thief).

    Generally for low weapon power / low stamina /proc damage setups, the serpent combination will be better. For high weapon power / high stamina setups thief will.

    Don't listen to the "thief mundus is always better because it is equal to 4 armor piece bonuses"
    Crit set bonuses are generally quite crappy in pvp, and therefore are not equal to other gear bonuses (for most builds).

    Also bear in mind if you are a NB, crit is slightly more effective because they have 5% more crit dmg. (i know the passive says 10% but it doesn't give full value for some reason)
    Edited by glavius on June 30, 2017 8:57PM
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
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    glavius wrote: »
    Thief value is reasonably easily calculated. On no cp, you can probably assume that on average you will do 25% more dmg on a crit (more vs. scrubs, but no increase vs. shields., and 50% more heal on a crit heal). This means a 2.75% dmg increase.
    Now compare this to weapon damage value you will get by going serpent+weapon dmg, which will increase damage by a fixed value. If the fixed value increase gives more than the % increase, serpent is better for you. (but bear in mind heals are affected more by thief).

    Generally for low weapon power / low stamina /proc damage setups, the serpent combination will be better. For high weapon power / high stamina setups thief will.

    Don't listen to the "thief mundus is always better because it is equal to 4 armor piece bonuses"
    Crit set bonuses are generally quite crappy in pvp, and therefore are not equal to other gear bonuses (for most builds).

    Also bear in mind if you are a NB, crit is slightly more effective because they have 5% more crit dmg. (i know the passive says 10% but it doesn't give full value for some reason)

    Thanks for this. I'm running a stam sorc, including automoton in looking at around 3k wpn damage in no cp. I mixed things up last night cost reduction is indeed an interesting choice over regen glyphs, and the theif gives me more burst. But where I really noticed it is in my rally burst heal. Also slotting evil hunter so my crit is around 45 now.
    Edited by Vapirko on July 1, 2017 3:26AM
  • NightbladeMechanics
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    Vapirko wrote: »
    glavius wrote: »
    Thief value is reasonably easily calculated. On no cp, you can probably assume that on average you will do 25% more dmg on a crit (more vs. scrubs, but no increase vs. shields., and 50% more heal on a crit heal). This means a 2.75% dmg increase.
    Now compare this to weapon damage value you will get by going serpent+weapon dmg, which will increase damage by a fixed value. If the fixed value increase gives more than the % increase, serpent is better for you. (but bear in mind heals are affected more by thief).

    Generally for low weapon power / low stamina /proc damage setups, the serpent combination will be better. For high weapon power / high stamina setups thief will.

    Don't listen to the "thief mundus is always better because it is equal to 4 armor piece bonuses"
    Crit set bonuses are generally quite crappy in pvp, and therefore are not equal to other gear bonuses (for most builds).

    Also bear in mind if you are a NB, crit is slightly more effective because they have 5% more crit dmg. (i know the passive says 10% but it doesn't give full value for some reason)

    Thanks for this. I'm running a stam sorc, including automoton in looking at around 3k wpn damage in no cp. I mixed things up last night cost reduction is indeed an interesting choice over regen glyphs, and the theif gives me more burst. But where I really noticed it is in my rally burst heal. Also slotting evil hunter so my crit is around 45 now.

    Seems you've found the right path.

    The simple answer to your question is to build as close to 50% crit in PvP as you can, no matter what, and then build enough sustain after that to function comfortably, and then build however much base damage you can after that.

    If you can hit 67% crit, that works too. It's those fractional thresholds that make your heals strong and your quick burst combos consistently lethal: 1/2, 2/3, 3/4 hits critting, etc. It's just really hard to build those high crit levels. 50% is the golden rule for PvP. :)
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  • Brutusmax1mus
    Brutusmax1mus
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    glavius wrote: »
    Thief value is reasonably easily calculated. On no cp, you can probably assume that on average you will do 25% more dmg on a crit (more vs. scrubs, but no increase vs. shields., and 50% more heal on a crit heal). This means a 2.75% dmg increase.
    Now compare this to weapon damage value you will get by going serpent+weapon dmg, which will increase damage by a fixed value. If the fixed value increase gives more than the % increase, serpent is better for you. (but bear in mind heals are affected more by thief).

    Generally for low weapon power / low stamina /proc damage setups, the serpent combination will be better. For high weapon power / high stamina setups thief will.

    Don't listen to the "thief mundus is always better because it is equal to 4 armor piece bonuses"
    Crit set bonuses are generally quite crappy in pvp, and therefore are not equal to other gear bonuses (for most builds).

    Also bear in mind if you are a NB, crit is slightly more effective because they have 5% more crit dmg. (i know the passive says 10% but it doesn't give full value for some reason)

    You're thinking of the shadow.
    Edited by Brutusmax1mus on July 1, 2017 2:48PM
  • Brutusmax1mus
    Brutusmax1mus
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    Vapirko wrote: »
    glavius wrote: »
    Thief value is reasonably easily calculated. On no cp, you can probably assume that on average you will do 25% more dmg on a crit (more vs. scrubs, but no increase vs. shields., and 50% more heal on a crit heal). This means a 2.75% dmg increase.
    Now compare this to weapon damage value you will get by going serpent+weapon dmg, which will increase damage by a fixed value. If the fixed value increase gives more than the % increase, serpent is better for you. (but bear in mind heals are affected more by thief).

    Generally for low weapon power / low stamina /proc damage setups, the serpent combination will be better. For high weapon power / high stamina setups thief will.

    Don't listen to the "thief mundus is always better because it is equal to 4 armor piece bonuses"
    Crit set bonuses are generally quite crappy in pvp, and therefore are not equal to other gear bonuses (for most builds).

    Also bear in mind if you are a NB, crit is slightly more effective because they have 5% more crit dmg. (i know the passive says 10% but it doesn't give full value for some reason)

    Thanks for this. I'm running a stam sorc, including automoton in looking at around 3k wpn damage in no cp. I mixed things up last night cost reduction is indeed an interesting choice over regen glyphs, and the theif gives me more burst. But where I really noticed it is in my rally burst heal. Also slotting evil hunter so my crit is around 45 now.

    Sounds like you've got a mean build now. Fyi, glavius was thinking of the shadow mundus, not the thief. Shadow is niche and not as huge of an increase. You need high crit, in the high 60s and up, before you start seeing shadow be effective. He is correct though. High impen builds will impact damage... but then again that is the point of those builds. They are sacrificing to do it as well.
  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
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    glavius wrote: »
    Thief value is reasonably easily calculated. On no cp, you can probably assume that on average you will do 25% more dmg on a crit (more vs. scrubs, but no increase vs. shields., and 50% more heal on a crit heal). This means a 2.75% dmg increase.
    Now compare this to weapon damage value you will get by going serpent+weapon dmg, which will increase damage by a fixed value. If the fixed value increase gives more than the % increase, serpent is better for you. (but bear in mind heals are affected more by thief).

    Generally for low weapon power / low stamina /proc damage setups, the serpent combination will be better. For high weapon power / high stamina setups thief will.

    Don't listen to the "thief mundus is always better because it is equal to 4 armor piece bonuses"
    Crit set bonuses are generally quite crappy in pvp, and therefore are not equal to other gear bonuses (for most builds).

    Also bear in mind if you are a NB, crit is slightly more effective because they have 5% more crit dmg. (i know the passive says 10% but it doesn't give full value for some reason)

    You're thinking of the shadow.
    Vapirko wrote: »
    glavius wrote: »
    Thief value is reasonably easily calculated. On no cp, you can probably assume that on average you will do 25% more dmg on a crit (more vs. scrubs, but no increase vs. shields., and 50% more heal on a crit heal). This means a 2.75% dmg increase.
    Now compare this to weapon damage value you will get by going serpent+weapon dmg, which will increase damage by a fixed value. If the fixed value increase gives more than the % increase, serpent is better for you. (but bear in mind heals are affected more by thief).

    Generally for low weapon power / low stamina /proc damage setups, the serpent combination will be better. For high weapon power / high stamina setups thief will.

    Don't listen to the "thief mundus is always better because it is equal to 4 armor piece bonuses"
    Crit set bonuses are generally quite crappy in pvp, and therefore are not equal to other gear bonuses (for most builds).

    Also bear in mind if you are a NB, crit is slightly more effective because they have 5% more crit dmg. (i know the passive says 10% but it doesn't give full value for some reason)

    Thanks for this. I'm running a stam sorc, including automoton in looking at around 3k wpn damage in no cp. I mixed things up last night cost reduction is indeed an interesting choice over regen glyphs, and the theif gives me more burst. But where I really noticed it is in my rally burst heal. Also slotting evil hunter so my crit is around 45 now.

    Sounds like you've got a mean build now. Fyi, glavius was thinking of the shadow mundus, not the thief. Shadow is niche and not as huge of an increase. You need high crit, in the high 60s and up, before you start seeing shadow be effective. He is correct though. High impen builds will impact damage... but then again that is the point of those builds. They are sacrificing to do it as well.

    No, his analysis was correct for the Thief. You also don't need more than 40-45% crit before you start seeing big returns from the Shadow in PvP. The Shadow is a HUGE increase in burst damage, and it becomes consistent as you near 50% crit. Unless you somehow manage to pass 67% crit, any additional crit above 50% is largely wasted for PvP builds focused on quick burst combos containing few instances of damage, from a mathematical perspective.

    The Shadow is the ideal mundus to run in PvP. People run the Thief instead when they can't get their crit above 40-45%, such as in non CP, as running the Shadow with low crit chance is inconsistent.

    Again, this is for builds using quick burst combos containing few instances of damage (i.e. any PvP build aiming to kill with burst...), NOT dps parses over long durations of time.
    Edited by NightbladeMechanics on July 1, 2017 3:44PM
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  • Brutusmax1mus
    Brutusmax1mus
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    glavius wrote: »
    Thief value is reasonably easily calculated. On no cp, you can probably assume that on average you will do 25% more dmg on a crit (more vs. scrubs, but no increase vs. shields., and 50% more heal on a crit heal). This means a 2.75% dmg increase.
    Now compare this to weapon damage value you will get by going serpent+weapon dmg, which will increase damage by a fixed value. If the fixed value increase gives more than the % increase, serpent is better for you. (but bear in mind heals are affected more by thief).

    Generally for low weapon power / low stamina /proc damage setups, the serpent combination will be better. For high weapon power / high stamina setups thief will.

    Don't listen to the "thief mundus is always better because it is equal to 4 armor piece bonuses"
    Crit set bonuses are generally quite crappy in pvp, and therefore are not equal to other gear bonuses (for most builds).

    Also bear in mind if you are a NB, crit is slightly more effective because they have 5% more crit dmg. (i know the passive says 10% but it doesn't give full value for some reason)

    You're thinking of the shadow.
    Vapirko wrote: »
    glavius wrote: »
    Thief value is reasonably easily calculated. On no cp, you can probably assume that on average you will do 25% more dmg on a crit (more vs. scrubs, but no increase vs. shields., and 50% more heal on a crit heal). This means a 2.75% dmg increase.
    Now compare this to weapon damage value you will get by going serpent+weapon dmg, which will increase damage by a fixed value. If the fixed value increase gives more than the % increase, serpent is better for you. (but bear in mind heals are affected more by thief).

    Generally for low weapon power / low stamina /proc damage setups, the serpent combination will be better. For high weapon power / high stamina setups thief will.

    Don't listen to the "thief mundus is always better because it is equal to 4 armor piece bonuses"
    Crit set bonuses are generally quite crappy in pvp, and therefore are not equal to other gear bonuses (for most builds).

    Also bear in mind if you are a NB, crit is slightly more effective because they have 5% more crit dmg. (i know the passive says 10% but it doesn't give full value for some reason)

    Thanks for this. I'm running a stam sorc, including automoton in looking at around 3k wpn damage in no cp. I mixed things up last night cost reduction is indeed an interesting choice over regen glyphs, and the theif gives me more burst. But where I really noticed it is in my rally burst heal. Also slotting evil hunter so my crit is around 45 now.

    Sounds like you've got a mean build now. Fyi, glavius was thinking of the shadow mundus, not the thief. Shadow is niche and not as huge of an increase. You need high crit, in the high 60s and up, before you start seeing shadow be effective. He is correct though. High impen builds will impact damage... but then again that is the point of those builds. They are sacrificing to do it as well.

    No, his analysis was correct for the Thief. You also don't need more than 40-45% crit before you start seeing big returns from the Shadow in PvP. The Shadow is a HUGE increase in burst damage, and it becomes consistent as you near 50% crit. Unless you somehow manage to pass 67% crit, any additional crit above 50% is largely wasted for PvP builds focused on quick burst combos containing few instances of damage, from a mathematical perspective.

    The Shadow is the ideal mundus to run in PvP. People run the Thief instead when they can't get their crit above 40-45%, such as in non CP, as running the Shadow with low crit chance is inconsistent.

    Again, this is for builds using quick burst combos containing few instances of damage (i.e. any PvP build aiming to kill with burst...), NOT dps parses over long durations of time.

    His analysis was for the shadow, but thinking it was the thief. Either way, this was directed at some one asking would it be best to go regen on crit chance on the mundus. That answer is the thief. He had 20%crit. Shadow shouldn't even be in discussion.

    If you're out you get higher crit, thief is the most efficient way to do it.
    Edited by Brutusmax1mus on July 1, 2017 6:53PM
  • glavius
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    No I was analyzing thief mundus damage/healing increase on no cp campaign:

    Damage increase will be around 11%*1.25 crit modifier (assuming the opponent has full impenetrable armor) =2.75% damage increase.

    Healing increase will be 11%*1.50 crit modifier=5.5% healing increase.

    Shadow mundus damage/healing increase would be rather low since he has 20% crit chance only.
    Edited by glavius on July 1, 2017 7:19PM
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