[PVP] Heavy armor must have penalty for damage output?

SilverWF

Heavy armor provides a huge survivability bonus to it's wearer, with literally no disadvantages. And only because of this there is still unkillable builds exists.
What you would loose if no wear med or Light?
~10% cost reduction? Not a big deal. You don't need to sustain for ages in the PVP, everything else huge regen would fix.
~4k spell penetration or weapon damage boost? Not an option against 20-25k resists nearly everyone have nowadays.
Some bonuses to weapon crit? Say 'hello' to Impenetrable trait and CP passive, that would make your crits hits even lesser than non-crits.
Bonuses to roll-dodge or break-free? You don't really need this, because you have a shield.
Bonus to sneak? Why you need it if noone can kill you anyway?
What you would get? Tons of phys and spell res, that would allows you to survive - we all know that dead DD has zero DPS, right?
Yes, you wouldn't have bonuses to crit or penetration, but 90% of your opponents would be in med or light with low HP and you would easily outsurvive them.

Add here a shield, that would nearly doubles your resists and protect from any CC with absolutely no penalties for this.

So, heavy amour must have additional in-built penalties to damage output and skills cost.
Something like With 3 or more pieces of heavy armor: 2% damage and healing output reduced and skills cost increased per piece of heavy armor you wear. This bonus would work only in the PVP (all kinds).

So, what do you think?
Honestly, I can predict the results right now...

Qbiken

Biased poll is biased. There´re no such thing as "un-killable" builds. Some are just more difficult to kill than others. And by my experience the so called "un-killable" builds are often played by experienced players. So I would say the it´s the experince that keeps these builds alive, not Heavy armor.

OldGamerESO

Doesn't medium armor have a 12% weapon damage increase for wearing 5 pieces?

SilverWF

Yes - for cost increase and damage/healing reduced

Qbiken wrote: »

Biased poll is biased. There´re no such thing as "un-killable" builds. Some are just more difficult to kill than others. And by my experience the so called "un-killable" builds are often played by experienced players. So I would say the it´s the experince that keeps these builds alive, not Heavy armor.

Whole life is biased, so what?

Yesterday we've met with Templar, who survived unscratched against 15+ opponents. Yes, fifteen and more. It lasts for ~10 mins, until everyone just left him alone. If you interested, I can give you his name. (S)he is at PC EU tho in the CP campaign.

Even mega-experienced player must not have possibilites to create unkillable build.

SilverWF

Yes - for cost increase and damage/healing reduced

OldGamerESO wrote: »

Doesn't medium armor have a 12% weapon damage increase for wearing 5 pieces?

It's still sucks, really - it's increases your Weapon damage numbers, not raw damage output.

Qbiken

SilverWF wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Biased poll is biased. There´re no such thing as "un-killable" builds. Some are just more difficult to kill than others. And by my experience the so called "un-killable" builds are often played by experienced players. So I would say the it´s the experince that keeps these builds alive, not Heavy armor.

Whole life is biased, so what?

Yesterday we've met with Templar, who survived unscratched against 15+ opponents. Yes, fifteen and more. It lasts for ~10 mins, until everyone just left him alone. If you interested, I can give you his name. (S)he is at PC EU tho..

Even mega-experienced player must not have possibilites to create unkillable build.

Can agree with the biased part

I Think outnumbered 1vX situations says more about he X than the single player that manage to stay alive.
And the experienced players have no more access to gear/skills than less experienced players have. And Heavy armor itself doesn´t offer that much damage (aside from the Wrath passive). The damage comes from procsets :P

kongkim

Not - I like to survive against 5+ med/light opponents and kill them one by one. Balanse for loosers.

SilverWF wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Biased poll is biased. There´re no such thing as "un-killable" builds. Some are just more difficult to kill than others. And by my experience the so called "un-killable" builds are often played by experienced players. So I would say the it´s the experince that keeps these builds alive, not Heavy armor.

Whole life is biased, so what?

Yesterday we've met with Templar, who survived unscratched against 15+ opponents. Yes, fifteen and more. It lasts for ~10 mins, until everyone just left him alone. If you interested, I can give you his name. (S)he is at PC EU tho..

Even mega-experienced player must not have possibilites to create unkillable build.

There you said it yourself.
You were not able to kill him. But he did not kill you either and you left him alone. So his damage was not that good. So, all in all, he sacrificed damage for survivability.

TequilaFire

It is not the heavy armor tank that usually kills you as he has little to no damage output despite what you think.
Either you wear your own resources down so far attacking him that he can kill you or in most cases it is his medium armor weapon damage boosting friend he is grouped with kills you while the tank has your foolish attention.

Lesson is don't go off chasing tanks as that is their purpose.

Trashkan

Yup it's that dang viper it's bugged. Procs before melee damage ever occurs and the within another half second it procs again. How did this get through testing.

Qbiken

Trashkan wrote: »

Yup it's that dang viper it's bugged. Procs before melee damage ever occurs and the within another half second it procs again. How did this get through testing.

Wut?? it can 2x proc?

SilverWF

Yes - for cost increase and damage/healing reduced

kongkim wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Biased poll is biased. There´re no such thing as "un-killable" builds. Some are just more difficult to kill than others. And by my experience the so called "un-killable" builds are often played by experienced players. So I would say the it´s the experince that keeps these builds alive, not Heavy armor.

Whole life is biased, so what?

Yesterday we've met with Templar, who survived unscratched against 15+ opponents. Yes, fifteen and more. It lasts for ~10 mins, until everyone just left him alone. If you interested, I can give you his name. (S)he is at PC EU tho..

Even mega-experienced player must not have possibilites to create unkillable build.

There you said it yourself.
You were not able to kill him. But he did not kill you either and you left him alone. So his damage was not that good. So, all in all, he sacrificed damage for survivability.

Sadly, he did. When most of allies left (including healer) and there was only 4 left - he killed us all I was in med armor, full Impen...
And when I said 'unscratched' - this means "he never got down even to 50% HP and most of time he was at ~90+% HP"

Qbiken wrote: »

Trashkan wrote: »

Yup it's that dang viper it's bugged. Procs before melee damage ever occurs and the within another half second it procs again. How did this get through testing.

Wut?? it can 2x proc?

Doubt it
.

smokey13a

while I agree no build should be unkillable they are quite rare in cyro from my viewpoint and if ZOS nerfed heavy armour that much I don't think it would be good, I mean in normal pvp(cyro) unkillable tanks are quite rare and all other heavy builds which can be killed(often quite easily) would be dead.

~4k spell penetration or weapon damage boost? Not an option against 20-25k resists nearly everyone have nowadays.

I have to disagree with this, ~4k pen from armour passive ~5k from sharpened weapon ~5k from debuff = ~14k penetration so that 20-25k resist drops to 6-11k resist (with pen set another 5K pen so resist drops to 1-6k resist) and that's not including putting CP into penetration.

Anne_Firehawk

SilverWF wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Biased poll is biased. There´re no such thing as "un-killable" builds. Some are just more difficult to kill than others. And by my experience the so called "un-killable" builds are often played by experienced players. So I would say the it´s the experince that keeps these builds alive, not Heavy armor.

Whole life is biased, so what?

Yesterday we've met with Templar, who survived unscratched against 15+ opponents. Yes, fifteen and more. It lasts for ~10 mins, until everyone just left him alone. If you interested, I can give you his name. (S)he is at PC EU tho in the CP campaign.

Even mega-experienced player must not have possibilites to create unkillable build.

Syrabane + Bloodspawn + Reactive. Resto backbar with Champion of Light.
L2P, nice biased Poll.

TomLukman

Not - I like to survive against 5+ med/light opponents and kill them one by one. Balanse for loosers.

I often outheal groups of 10+ with my templar wearing all light armor +1m/h for undaunted passive.
So, yes - blame heavy armor for that...

I have a good heavy set on side but I rarely use it because it doesn't seem to be that much of improvement - it feels like a sacrifice of healing for more HP and nothing more.

Kay1

Not - I like to survive against 5+ med/light opponents and kill them one by one. Balanse for loosers.

Heavy is complete *** right now, I wouldn't wear it if you paid me.

You just got rekt by a good 1vXr running points into health, my nb on med can reach 31k health while tanking like a stam dk with a shield.

It's clearly a L2P issue and bad behavior because no one is running heavy, only people with no clue about min max, heavy is no longer competitive and if someone disagree I would duel you at any time and I bet you can't even last 1 minute.

Vapirko

There already is a downside. Greatly reduced resource cost for medium armor. Heavy armor is no longer the meta. And there are very few if any unkillable builds now except for tanks, but they can do no damage. It comes down to skill. For example my tank build can hold off a good handful of noobs indefinitely no prob. But I ran up agaisnt two really strong players who rekt me in under a minute.

ExcaliburESO

Not - I like to survive against 5+ med/light opponents and kill them one by one. Balanse for loosers.

LOL, this thread xD u must realise that there is 2 classes that dont have a crazy burst dmg and cannot afford going for light or medium armor otherwise they wont be able to perform at all, if u playing a sorc u can use light armor and u will have surviability if u play nb u can roll dodge alot u have good stamina sustain and u have cloack which helps surviving in medium armor and also u got crazy burst dmg that dont require u to fight in long sustained fights. then we come to templars and dks who perfrom well mostly in heavy armor do to lack of surviability, escape skills only thing this 2 classes can do to survive is block and heal(tough on dk def heal ability sucks). after heavy armor nerf the sustain in heavy armor is rly bad so saying something like nerf the dmg or nerf that is just plain stupid , maybe u should make a templar or dk put on them light or medium and then go pvp with that and gl.
p.m. U will notice that u dont have 1 click 15k-20k shields and also no 3k stam recovery to keep roll dodging and cloaking. So L2p and dont cry about heavy armor

idk

Qbiken wrote: »

Biased poll is biased.

This is very true and the OP statement is also incorrect. While polls here are entertainment value only, OP is not really looking to even attempt to get an opinion from the poll.

HA is not on par with medium and light armor damage wise. spell pen, crit, cost reduction and increased regen to name just a few benefits HA lacks. Though I would not be upset about weapon/spell damage being changed back to a tank stat, though it does not put it on par with MA/LA.

Inpen merely reduces the bonus damage crit attacks do, it does not reduce the base damage and it is not possible to reduce crit damage bonus 100%. WIth full inpen gold armor and full CP I believe the reduced crit damage is 50%. Again, does not affect base damage.

The actual issues with some HA PvP builds are not even mentioned by OP.

Magıc

Think it's quite clear that heavy armour needs a nerf. It shouldn't give WD/SD at all. It should only be there if you want to tank, not to tank and do damage.

@Qbiken You realise HA (+ unbalanced sets) gives more WD than medium armour? You clearly don't pvp much. In fact I've never seen you in pvp at all and everytime I look in guild roster you're pveing so I don't know why you're trying to comment on pvp stuff.

@smokey13a 5k from a sharp weapon assuming you're actually using a staff/2h as your main bar. I use SnB so 2.5k pen only (not everyone uses staff/2h as main bar lol).
5k from what debuff? Pierce armour? How many people actually run it? Only guys I know who run it are the very few SnB stamDK/Stam Sorcs left (because that playstyle has also been overly nerfed too, and heroic slash is much stronger but costs 1k more so it's not viable to use anymore in pvp). Stamblades don't run SnB, nor do stamplars because it isn't viable or meta. In fact it isn't viable or meta on stamDK/stam sorc either, but there are still a few of us persisting with the SnB playstyle.
Putting cp into penetration has always been and still is inefficient. You can't put enough points into without hurting your overall damage cause you're missing out in other stars.
4k pen is only for magicka users. 12% WD is only for medium armour stamina users which funnily enough is nothing compared to the meta sets of Fury for stamDKs, Ravager for stamplars and Viper/Selenes for stamblades.

Qbiken

Magıc wrote: »

Think it's quite clear that heavy armour needs a nerf. It shouldn't give WD/SD at all. It should only be there if you want to tank, not to tank and do damage.

@Qbiken You realise HA (+ unbalanced sets) gives more WD than medium armour? You clearly don't pvp much. In fact I've never seen you in pvp at all and everytime I look in guild roster you're pveing so I don't know why you're trying to comment on pvp stuff.

@smokey13a 5k from a sharp weapon assuming you're actually using a staff/2h as your main bar. I use SnB so 2.5k pen only (not everyone uses staff/2h as main bar lol).
5k from what debuff? Pierce armour? How many people actually run it? Only guys I know who run it are the very few SnB stamDK/Stam Sorcs left (because that playstyle has also been overly nerfed too, and heroic slash is much stronger but costs 1k more so it's not viable to use anymore in pvp). Stamblades don't run SnB, nor do stamplars because it isn't viable or meta. In fact it isn't viable or meta on stamDK/stam sorc either, but there are still a few of us persisting with the SnB playstyle.
Putting cp into penetration has always been and still is inefficient. You can't put enough points into without hurting your overall damage cause you're missing out in other stars.
4k pen is only for magicka users. 12% WD is only for medium armour stamina users which funnily enough is nothing compared to the meta sets of Fury for stamDKs, Ravager for stamplars and Viper/Selenes for stamblades.

Low quality bait.......once again...

No I don´t PvP a lot, prefer PvE. I play PvP 1-2 days a week at most these days. Used to do a lot more PvP a year back. Sure more time in Cyrodil gives you more insight on things but still you don´t have to spend weeks in Cyrodil to get a hunch on how the state of PvP is (But please name the exact amount of hours I need in PvP otherwise before I´m allowed to talk about PvP on the forums.....). Still not sure why you aim to attack me on the forums on a otherwise very friendly thread?

Magıc

Qbiken wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Think it's quite clear that heavy armour needs a nerf. It shouldn't give WD/SD at all. It should only be there if you want to tank, not to tank and do damage.

@Qbiken You realise HA (+ unbalanced sets) gives more WD than medium armour? You clearly don't pvp much. In fact I've never seen you in pvp at all and everytime I look in guild roster you're pveing so I don't know why you're trying to comment on pvp stuff.

@smokey13a 5k from a sharp weapon assuming you're actually using a staff/2h as your main bar. I use SnB so 2.5k pen only (not everyone uses staff/2h as main bar lol).
5k from what debuff? Pierce armour? How many people actually run it? Only guys I know who run it are the very few SnB stamDK/Stam Sorcs left (because that playstyle has also been overly nerfed too, and heroic slash is much stronger but costs 1k more so it's not viable to use anymore in pvp). Stamblades don't run SnB, nor do stamplars because it isn't viable or meta. In fact it isn't viable or meta on stamDK/stam sorc either, but there are still a few of us persisting with the SnB playstyle.
Putting cp into penetration has always been and still is inefficient. You can't put enough points into without hurting your overall damage cause you're missing out in other stars.
4k pen is only for magicka users. 12% WD is only for medium armour stamina users which funnily enough is nothing compared to the meta sets of Fury for stamDKs, Ravager for stamplars and Viper/Selenes for stamblades.

Low quality bait.......once again...

No I don´t PvP a lot, prefer PvE. I play PvP 1-2 days a week at most these days. Used to do a lot more PvP a year back. Sure more time in Cyrodil gives you more insight on things but still you don´t have to spend weeks in Cyrodil to get a hunch on how the state of PvP is (But please name the exact amount of hours I need in PvP otherwise before I´m allowed to talk about PvP on the forums.....). Still not sure why you aim to attack me on the forums on a otherwise very friendly thread?

Where exactly am I attacking you? Please point it out.

And I don't think you can get a hunch on the state of pvp through 1-2 days a week of pvping seeing as you think heavy armour is balanced. Either you're a heavy armour player yourself and are desperate for it to not be nerfed because you've realised heavy armour alone can carry players, just like proc sets, or you just don't know what pvp is really like because you don't actually pvp. Personally I'm guessing on the former, if you do in fact pvp (which as I've said, I've never seen you in pvp nor have I ever seen you in cyrodiil or IC in guild roster).

Arundo

Not - I like to survive against 5+ med/light opponents and kill them one by one. Balanse for loosers.

lol biased poll is biased

taiji2078

Yes - for cost increase and damage/healing reduced

What I'm telling you is that this game is PVE. Elder Scrolls was never a pvp game and will never be as it is now.
That people are trying to pvp in it, it's comendable, but that's it. The game mechanics can be abused in so many ways, that nobody (not even ZOS) could ever balance this for pvp.

I left ESO pvp years ago ... too bad the Imperial City is forcing me to pvp once in a while. Anyway, I have all the stealth bonuses and I'm opening the chests in 1 second so I don't care much about pvp.

They should rework everything from scratch for a true pvp experience, like Blizzard did with WoW. As you see from my answer, I agree to change the way things work now, but better for you, just take the best armor and have fun. This game's pvp it is broken beyond repair as it is now - the first thing, they should disable ALL armor bonuses in pvp ( ...and this would be just to start with ... )

Qbiken

Magıc wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Think it's quite clear that heavy armour needs a nerf. It shouldn't give WD/SD at all. It should only be there if you want to tank, not to tank and do damage.

@Qbiken You realise HA (+ unbalanced sets) gives more WD than medium armour? You clearly don't pvp much. In fact I've never seen you in pvp at all and everytime I look in guild roster you're pveing so I don't know why you're trying to comment on pvp stuff.

@smokey13a 5k from a sharp weapon assuming you're actually using a staff/2h as your main bar. I use SnB so 2.5k pen only (not everyone uses staff/2h as main bar lol).
5k from what debuff? Pierce armour? How many people actually run it? Only guys I know who run it are the very few SnB stamDK/Stam Sorcs left (because that playstyle has also been overly nerfed too, and heroic slash is much stronger but costs 1k more so it's not viable to use anymore in pvp). Stamblades don't run SnB, nor do stamplars because it isn't viable or meta. In fact it isn't viable or meta on stamDK/stam sorc either, but there are still a few of us persisting with the SnB playstyle.
Putting cp into penetration has always been and still is inefficient. You can't put enough points into without hurting your overall damage cause you're missing out in other stars.
4k pen is only for magicka users. 12% WD is only for medium armour stamina users which funnily enough is nothing compared to the meta sets of Fury for stamDKs, Ravager for stamplars and Viper/Selenes for stamblades.

Low quality bait.......once again...

No I don´t PvP a lot, prefer PvE. I play PvP 1-2 days a week at most these days. Used to do a lot more PvP a year back. Sure more time in Cyrodil gives you more insight on things but still you don´t have to spend weeks in Cyrodil to get a hunch on how the state of PvP is (But please name the exact amount of hours I need in PvP otherwise before I´m allowed to talk about PvP on the forums.....). Still not sure why you aim to attack me on the forums on a otherwise very friendly thread?

Where exactly am I attacking you? Please point it out.

And I don't think you can get a hunch on the state of pvp through 1-2 days a week of pvping seeing as you think heavy armour is balanced. Either you're a heavy armour player yourself and are desperate for it to not be nerfed because you've realised heavy armour alone can carry players, just like proc sets, or you just don't know what pvp is really like because you don't actually pvp. Personally I'm guessing on the former, if you do in fact pvp (which as I've said, I've never seen you in pvp nor have I ever seen you in cyrodiil or IC in guild roster).

@Magıc
Just because you´ve never seen me through the guildrooster in PvP-areas doesn´t mean I don´t PvP, think we can both agree on that?;) Am I the best player to make assumptions on things in PvP?? 120% sure I´m not and I´m not on the forums to solve all balance issues with the game either.

Still I can only talk from my own experience in PvP (you can´t argue with perceptions), but it still doesn´t make my opinions about PvP invalid. It doesn´t relfect a big part of the "truth" but after playing the game for over 3 years (mainly PvE as I´ve said before)I´ve have a hunch on some parts of the PvP aspect of the game.

But I can agree that the views and opinions from players that do more PvP (As yourself perhaps?) gives a better hint on the state of PvP (that´s one of the reasons I actually visits the forums, to get a better understanding on how players Thinks about the game in PvP and PvE). I´ve nothing against being enlightend by more experienced people, regardless if it´s PvE or PvP, but to say that people shouldn´t comment/discuss on topics that they don´t have a lot of experience with feels just strange to me

paulsimonps

Not - I like to survive against 5+ med/light opponents and kill them one by one. Balanse for loosers.

Heavy armor does not need a nerf in the Damage department. It wasn't all too long ago that the community begged and pleaded to have them buff heavy armor users damage capabilities. Heavy Armor already has their sustain nerfed, that was enough.

Also you said you came across someone that was unkillable, question, did they kill anyone?

SilverWF

Yes - for cost increase and damage/healing reduced

paulsimonps wrote: »

did they kill anyone?

Yes, he did.

IcyDeadPeople

Yes - for something else

Heavy armor is still a bit too strong currently, with of course high resistances, very good sustain (even after Morrowind patch) thanks to Constitution that does not rely on recovery stat and relatively high damage output.

Rather than nerf heavy armor I'd suggest slight buffs to light and medium to bring them in line with heavy. Something like simply adding spell damage buff to light passive and physical penetration buff to medium would make the choice of which armor to use much more interesting.

A change like this would perhaps give magicka users with large shields a bit of an edge, so I'd also suggest slight reduction in the size of hardened ward.

rfennell_ESO

Yes - for something else

The problem with heavy armor is how it's augmented by proc sets. That's probably another discussion entirely.

The only issue I have with heavy armor is mobility. Heavy armor should have limited mobility; Cap max movement speed or something of the sort.

acw37162

Not - I like to survive against 5+ med/light opponents and kill them one by one. Balanse for loosers.

Biased polls constructed to belittle or shame those who disagree you are sad.

BossXV

Not - I like to survive against 5+ med/light opponents and kill them one by one. Balanse for loosers.

This is so bias it's pathetic

SilverWF

Yes - for cost increase and damage/healing reduced

And don't get me wrong. Tanks in the PVE sometimes are must (this is sucks, but this is another story) but in PVP? Players are not dumb bots, that can be easily taunted.
And in the most cases that builds are focused on 1vsX situations.
Maybe, I've played DnD too much and ESO is another universe, but...

If you are wearing heavy, then you sacrificing damage, right? And vice versa.
But in the current Cyro we all see situations where you, wearing offensive sets just can't even scratch some heavy armor users, while their "low" damage is pretty enough to kill you.

IMO if heavy would fight with med they must die at the same time (if both are just not bad): heavy - because his damage is not enough to kill you earlier, Medium - because his defense is not enough to survive heavy user attacks.
But it is happens not like this atm: medium "big" damage are just scratches a dye at the heavy armor, while heavy user attacks hits extremely hard on the literally no defense and low HP medium user
.