Tie Increased Resource regen to Pausing Resource Pool Usage.

Avran_Sylt

Why?

Currently resource regen works by either regen stacking, or heavy attacking. Which, works. But since heavy attacks only restore one resource type, you're usually shoehorned into slotting abilities on that bar that correspond to that weapon resource return type. As well as being shoehorned into weapon types depending on what resource you want to choose.

So, my suggestion would be to increase Resource Regen by a fair amount while the player is not using a particular resource pool. This would completely separate resource regen from weapons entirely. Allowing players a much greater choice in how they wish to play.

Each pool would have its own timer. So, if the player wants to regen stamina faster, they could heavy attack (which costs no resources currently), they could light attack, they could use a magicka ability (using magicka and pausing magicka regeneration), or just do nothing, and vice versa for magicka.

Why would this be beneficial?

It would allow a greater variety of builds for players. That low magicka pool will regen more quickly so you can slot magicka abilities on a stamina character and use them more frequently instead of just heavy attacking. (the downside being that you can't cast as many spells before it runs dry and you have to stop for a bit as well as lower ability damage from a smaller resource pool) and vice versa for stamina.

It would function like this:

Stamina: Not consuming stamina or blocking for 0.5 seconds returns [x] stamina to the player. Being interrupted prior to this tick returns [x]/(T/0.5) where T is the time since the last tick.
Magicka: Not consuming Magick or blocking (Ice Staff) for 0.5 seconds returns [x] magicka to the player. Being interrupted prior to this tick returns [x]/(T/0.5) where T is the time since the last tick.
This is separate from the Regen Bonuses and is only effected by CP and converted armor/weapon passives that originally were heavy attack regen bonus passives

This regen would be considered separate from "Comabt Regen" in that it is unaffected by regen buffs.

However, you may say that this would re-introduce the infinite sustain issue that arose before, and while technically true, it would be so in a different way.
Infinite sustain would be attainable via balancing your build over hybrid skills that use magicka and stamina in conjunction with one another.

So, wouldn't this be detrimental to singe resource stacking builds?

Not quite, single resource builds would still gain a burst damage potential, but would have to fall back to heavy attacking to regain the resource. It would be a bit less interesting, but the burst damage would be higher than hybrid builds, but balancing it out with the "rest period".

All in all Hybrid builds would be better for sustain but deal lower overall burst damage (damage per ability) but have a higher ability usage uptime as a result in speccing into different areas (spreading out attribute points to gain an even level of damage on abilities) and not needing to heavy attack as much (if at all). While resource stacking would heavily benefit burst damage (damage per ability) while causing more frequent "pause" duration's. Over prolonged periods this should allow damage output to normalize adding even greater diversity to end-game content.

Drummerx04

Sounds Bad

Please stop. This is not the first time you have made this suggestion. It has been pretty widely shot down by everyone who cared enough to actually read it.

GuyNamedSean

Sounds Interesting

The concept is certainly interesting and I'd like them to try something to give the game more build variety, but I don't think it would work as you've suggested it. The regen increasing the longer you don't use the pool is something I think would be really good, but the rest of your system I don't really agree with.

Avran_Sylt

@Drummerx04

Just answer me this:

Why does an attack labeled "Heavy Attack" Restore Resources to the User? Why does a Light Attack not do the same?

Avran_Sylt

@GuyNamedSean

Care to delve deeper into the parts you don't agree with? Can't say that this is the best polished idea out there so constructive criticism would be appreciated.

theher0not

Other

This would just screw over stamina even more.


Since CC-break, dodge roll, block and sprint cost stam this would almost only benefit mag builds.(Stamina already lose all their regen when holding down their sprint or block button, this would make it even worse)



Maybe making it so using abillities of one sort reset the timer while other resource comsuming actions does not could work.

Ahzek

How to make sorc the only viable class in one simple step.

Avran_Sylt

@theher0not

Fair point. However with sprint now you'll regain stamina after sprinting more quickly and even more so with base regen without having to heavy attack. Stam builds would still have the advantage in that their resource pool is much greater and they can perform more of these actions while twining attacks between them. (not to mention stam users would have a greater incentive to use magicka based abilities as well instead of heavy attacks).

@Ahzek

How so?

Ahzek

@Avran_Sylt dark deal/conversion

Avran_Sylt

@Ahzek

Don't play sorc much, that been nerfed to be level based yet?

GuyNamedSean

Sounds Interesting

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@GuyNamedSean

Care to delve deeper into the parts you don't agree with? Can't say that this is the best polished idea out there so constructive criticism would be appreciated.

The heavy attack related buffs being moved over, for example, should stay as they are. I'm basically saying that the only part of the idea I think would be a good benefit would be the regen rate increasing over time.

theher0not wrote: »

This would just screw over stamina even more.


Since CC-break, dodge roll, block and sprint cost stam this would almost only benefit mag builds.(Stamina already lose all their regen when holding down their sprint or block button, this would make it even worse)



Maybe making it so using abillities of one sort reset the timer while other resource comsuming actions does not could work.

This, Avran, is one of the issues I was hinting at. All builds make fairly consistent usage of their Stamina, but Stamina based builds make very little or no usage of their Magicka.

If we want hybrid builds to truly be viable and Stamina builds to be able to truly compete with Magicka, we'd have to have a system that makes up for that discrepancy. Maybe make a change so that Magicka builds have to use Magicka for roll-dodging, blocking, and break-free. I'm not saying that's absolutely the answer, but I am saying that we'd need systems like that before your suggestion is truly viable. Right now it's just an interesting idea.

Izaki

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Ahzek

Don't play sorc much, that been nerfed to be level based yet?

Its has always been level based since Dark Brotherhood

Avran_Sylt

@GuyNamedSean

Ah. well the heavy attack wouldn't necessarily be moved over, it's just that during the heavy attack you'd be gaining roughly the same amount as you would be if you landed a heavy attack currently (though that brings the discussion of should that even happen as now you can no longer get resource returns if the enemy blocks, a conversation to continue down later as it deals with if heavy attacks should consume stamina or not (should they allow for regen during the wind up but cost stamina?))

On the topic of roll-dodge and break free: That a solid point no one has brought up, so thank you for sharing.

hmmhmmmhmm. So need to have a way for the player to choose to use mag or stamina in order to break-free roll-dodge and block. And in a way such that it's similar to the current system and is easily mapped to a console controller. I'm gonna have to think about that for a bit

@IzakiBrotherSs

Ah, then I see what he means, since it costs stamina it'd allow for mag regen as well as the mag bonus during the cast time. Perhaps this could introduce a way for skills to cost multiple resources to be implemented down the road.

Avran_Sylt

@GuyNamedSean

How bout this? I know it's a long shot, but this may indirectly help the frost staff and tanking with other staves/magicka in general.

Add in a "Concentrate" Button.
In settings it can be set to a toggle or active while held (PC) and is only a Toggle on Console.

This button would be "CAPS LOCK" on Keyboard, and would be "Click Right Stick" on a Gamepad.
(That or replace the "Cycle Preferred Enemy Target" function with this and take control of TAB and Right Stick (Click/Held)).

While the player is concentrating, they can use magicka in order to use an active Barrier (block), Push themselves (roll dodge), or Pulse (break-free).

Drummerx04

Sounds Bad

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Drummerx04

Just answer me this:

Why does an attack labeled "Heavy Attack" Restore Resources to the User? Why does a Light Attack not do the same?

Why do you ask a question as if it has no satisfactory answer? The question is biased, so no answer would satisfy you.

The problems with your suggestions remain unchanged, and previous statements you have made such as "light attacking multiple times in a row makes combat feel faster" really suggests that you aren't in a position to comment on game combat mechanics.

You are forgetting many simple problems in your quest to I guess make hybrids more appealing (I guess that's what you are after). By linking resource returns to taking NO actions with that resource you are really limiting what can be done.

What if there is a lot of incoming damage and I need to shield or die? Well guess what, I need resources or I'm dead.
What about trial settings for healers? They won't be using much in the way of stam heals, so healers will need to do what exactly while waiting for resources? What about tanks? You want them to just not use any skills while bosses wail away on them?

In all these cases, linking resource returns to a heavy attack is at least a reliable way to get a little burst of resources to continue functioning successfully. You need to actually remain in combat (via heavy attacking) for the extra resource return.

Magicka builds would have basically unlimited stamina to dodge and break free WITHOUT EVEN HAVING TO BUILD FOR IT. Can you imagine a stamina DK that can build for full stam damage and sustain AND then have enough magicka to keep wings up 100% of the time? What about a sorc that streaks behind a tree then has full resources again after 2 seconds? PVP would be an unmitigated disaster and also frankly favor zergs even more. Just follow along in the zerg, spam skills as hard as you can, then retreat into the zerg for 10 seconds to fully regain all resources. Yeah, that's going to go well.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@GuyNamedSean

Ah. well the heavy attack wouldn't necessarily be moved over, it's just that during the heavy attack you'd be gaining roughly the same amount as you would be if you landed a heavy attack currently (though that brings the discussion of should that even happen as now you can no longer get resource returns if the enemy blocks, a conversation to continue down later as it deals with if heavy attacks should consume stamina or not (should they allow for regen during the wind up but cost stamina?))

It's posts and followups like these that lead me to think that you really haven't thought any of this out at all. You want more options while gaining resources than just heavy attacking? Great okay, so I'm a magsorc, what stamina skills should I be putting on my bars that I can cast while I'm not using magicka skills... or better yet, what skills do you expect me to take off my bars for stamina skills instead? Oh, so heavy attacking will now drain resources too, so my only option is to gimp myself with stamina skills on my bar which will be mostly useless and pathetically weak, light attack multiple times in a row while casting no skills, or literally take no f***ing actions at all. Even @Wrobel would be ashamed of your design choices.

Avran_Sylt

@Drummerx04

In terms of your concern about resource regen, you could still light or heavy attack (currently) while the passive resource regen ticks (so you can still deal damage and do stuff). Not only that, but the value would be based on the current heavy attack resource return values, but divided based on a tick rate of 0.5 seconds and conditionally based on when you next use a resource cost, meaning that time that you usually use for a heavy attack while tanking will still be the same damned thing but it isn't the heavy attack that's granting you a resource return (but rather the ticks). Stacking resources would just be to allow the player to spam more attacks of that resource type (and damage increase).

If you need resources and it's shield or die, if you already didn't have resources it wouldn't save you then nor would it now. Well, it might actually now since the ticks happen faster so in the edge case that you're near empty but only a slight bit away from the needed magicka to shield you could use it.

And your concerns about rapid resource return: Now it won't just be a simple goddamned slug-fest to see who can out-deal damage facefirst into an enemy. If you're losing but have the resources left to retreat and get away (or re-positioning yourself after winning), you can restore some resources while waiting for the enemy to make a move.

magicka builds would be able to more consistently dodge, but they can't continually use it because of the dodge-fatigue, and their low stamina pool. Limiting them on how often they can actually use it leaving them more vulnerable.

Magsorc, what skills could you use? Rearming Trap, you could be one that dual wields and uses blade cloak or has a 2H and uses momentum or uppercut for the CC. Use a 2H and wrecking blow on backbar to empower every attack that comes after your "rest" period or use bloodcraze for more hp regen. *** reliable empower while gaining magicka?

fukin hell I'm telling ya that this is unpolished.

Drummerx04

Sounds Bad

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Drummerx04

In terms of your concern about resource regen, you could still light or heavy attack (currently) while the passive resource regen ticks (so you can still deal damage and do stuff). Not only that, but the value would be based on the current heavy attack resource return values, but divided based on a tick rate of 0.5 seconds and conditionally based on when you next use a resource cost, meaning that time that you usually use for a heavy attack while tanking will still be the same damned thing but it isn't the heavy attack that's granting you a resource return (but rather the ticks). Stacking resources would just be to allow the player to spam more attacks of that resource type (and damage increase).

If you need resources and it's shield or die, if you already didn't have resources it wouldn't save you then nor would it now. Well, it might actually now since the ticks happen faster so in the edge case that you're near empty but only a slight bit away from the needed magicka to shield you could use it.

And your concerns about rapid resource return: Now it won't just be a simple goddamned slug-fest to see who can out-deal damage facefirst into an enemy. If you're losing but have the resources left to retreat and get away (or re-positioning yourself after winning), you can restore some resources while waiting for the enemy to make a move.

magicka builds would be able to more consistently dodge, but they can't continually use it because of the dodge-fatigue, and their low stamina pool. Limiting them on how often they can actually use it leaving them more vulnerable.

Magsorc, what skills could you use? Rearming Trap, you could be one that dual wields and uses blade cloak or has a 2H and uses momentum or uppercut for the CC. Use a 2H and wrecking blow on backbar to empower every attack that comes after your "rest" period or use bloodcraze for more hp regen. *** reliable empower while gaining magicka?

fukin hell I'm telling ya that this is unpolished.

I don't need you to explain your mechanic again, I understood it the first several times you've tried selling it in other threads.

If you think that that is all pvp is, then you need to get back out into cyrodiil or battle grounds and gain more experience. With two equal players fighting, USUALLY the battle can go on for quite a long time ending only when one of the players runs out of resources. With your mechanic, good players in pvp would almost never run out of resources even when building mostly for damage.

If after not using dodge or break free or whatever stam skill for 2 seconds, i passively gained around 500 extra stam per second, I would literally never run out of stamina in pvp even playing fast and lose with my stam usage. That's kind of a problem, if I could do it, then so could every other magicka build, and pvp would suck.

I think you entirely missed my point about magsorc in pve. Most of your suggestions has me equipping a stam weapon instead of 2 destro staves. So I equip a two hander on my backbar for the 5.5k magsorc uppercut (yes, literally tooltips for less than a light attack AND has a cast time) or momentum (which heals for a whopping 382 health every two seconds)... that is such a massive dps loss. Probably around 30% dps loss if I'm lucky. On top of that, I can't have Wall of Elements on my back bar, so I lose a skill on my front bar which commonly has two toggle skills anyway. Basically, no sane person would gimp themselves this badly.

So either your mechanic needs to be powerful enough to replace weapon heavy attacks in the same timeframe, giving magicka builds infinite stamina usage, or it will need to be so weak as to be almost unhelpful leading to more resource problems than we have now.

Either way, it just isn't a good suggestion, I'm sorry.

Avran_Sylt

Drummerx04 wrote: »

So either your mechanic needs to be powerful enough to replace weapon heavy attacks in the same timeframe, giving magicka builds infinite stamina usage, or it will need to be so weak as to be almost unhelpful leading to more resource problems than we have now.

Either way, it just isn't a good suggestion, I'm sorry.

@Drummerx04 Excellent Constructive Criticism! As well as the supporting arguments above it while also being very insightful!

So, fast ticks wont work due to balancing issues. Low ticks can't justify the fast ticks. People also want to have large instant returns for a more 'in control' feel of combat. So, what might you be able to do? (I need to put more thought to this)
Do you prefer the current system where heavy attacks restore a fixed resource based on weapon type, or would you have it independent (just curious).

Drummerx04

Sounds Bad

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

So either your mechanic needs to be powerful enough to replace weapon heavy attacks in the same timeframe, giving magicka builds infinite stamina usage, or it will need to be so weak as to be almost unhelpful leading to more resource problems than we have now.

Either way, it just isn't a good suggestion, I'm sorry.

@Drummerx04 Excellent Constructive Criticism! As well as the supporting arguments above it while also being very insightful!

So, fast ticks wont work due to balancing issues. Low ticks can't justify the fast ticks. People also want to have large instant returns for a more 'in control' feel of combat. So, what might you be able to do? (I need to put more thought to this)
Do you prefer the current system where heavy attacks restore a fixed resource based on weapon type, or would you have it independent (just curious).

With the current system, you have two options for sustain, since group sustain tools were gutted to be next to worthless.

1. Specifically gear with sets and/or enchants to help with sustain
2. Place heavy attacks in your rotation

Even in the current meta, the overall sustained dps is usually better when you build for maximum damage and then use heavy attacks. Personally, I use witch mothers, then otherwise build for maximum damage.

It may be worth explaining what exactly irks the end game community about the morrowind changes, and why your suggestion doesn't really solve any problems for them. Average players that go around in the overworld questing or whatever probably don't even notice that any skills changed and probably wouldn't even notice if your sustain changes were implemented.

Anyway, it's not that heavy attacks are boring, it's that the group sustain tools got gutted into near uselessness. Before we could build for maximum damage and then healers could supply resources. This really rewarded good groups with good healers. In the current meta, healers pretty much only heal and buff the group. Ele drain is still nice, but even that got nerfed.

Orbs/shards do help a little, but basically when I synergize an orb it only affects me (before the mag regen buff applied to 6 allies), and I only get around 5k mag. That's two or three spells. A healer can provide enough magicka for 2-3 spells every 15-20 seconds via orbs. Otherwise I am completely on my own for resource management. It's less about how good your group is this patch, and more like 12 people that just happen to be in the same instance fighting things at the same time... Like literally, I feel like it's every man for himself in trials. Oh did you need that orb for resources? sorry, so did I, tough luck.

THAT is the problem that should be solved. And honestly, if ZOS just undid the changes to orbs and shards OR just changed them to affect nearby allies for half resource return or something, EVERY other sustain change would be 100% acceptable and reasonable.

Another issue that I personally have, the resource regen passive is exactly that. passive. But with personal resource management being such a big deal at the moment, I can't afford to sit around waiting for this passive thing to kick in so I can function. At least with the heavy attacks, I know I can reliably and actively generate resources at a time I choose.

And as I said before, for this new mechanic to come close to the sustain provided by heavy attacks, it would have to be pretty powerful, and that would be a nightmare for balancing between pvp and pve. And since ZOS 100% refuses to separate the balancing between the two, either pvp or pve or more likely both would suffer.

HatchetHaro

Sounds Interesting

I say "sounds interesting" because it's a very interesting idea. That doesn't mean that it's a particularly good idea, lets be real.

Still, kudos to OP for actually suggesting something that's worth looking at, however radical it may be.

Avran_Sylt

@Drummerx04

Interesting.

So ZoS first wanted to address the problem of one synergy restoring all mag/stam to the entire group from just a single person slotting the ability and using it during trials. However, with their nerf hammer they trashed the functionality to really only be functional if everyone slots it and uses it consistently.

So, what if shards/orbs functioned in a similar fashion to how the new Hall of Fabrication sets work? The user who activates the synergy restores mag/stam but this also effects up to [x] (prolly 2) number of nearby allies.

This would require both healers to slot it for it to be effective, and maybe the tank/off-tank so it's no longer the easymode one and done. The random few target selection would require players to position themselves in Trials more knowledgeably rather than just a full stack (stam/mag in their own group for best effectiveness if activating player determines what resource is restored) adding a bit more depth to positioning for best results.