Putting the RP in MMORPG

vestahls

Zennie, when will I be able to quest-wise play a canonically pro-slavery Dunmer as per game choices and dialogue?

I say when because I'm a positive thinker.

Sincerely,

Rickter

vestahls wrote: »

Y tho?

Kindly explain without resorting to the pedestrian application of real life morality in fictive contexts.

This

dont give him a hard time. he is free to RP any way he would like, especially when it already exists in the game lore in a gme with an M rating.

These are mature themes. wanting to RP a slaver is no different than someone wanting to RP an assassin.

unless some how owning slaves is worse than killing people for a living?

its a game.

MythicEmperor

Yes, yes, yes, and a thousand more yeses!

This is something that has always bothered me, especially in the Morrowind chapter. For example, the Telvanni questline assumes you despise slavery. Now tell me, why would my traditional, xenophobic, and racist Dunmer want to free the slaves and help an ambitious scaleback? At the very least, add additional dialogue that supports pro-slavery responses.

In TES: III, the Dunmer see slavery as an ancestral right, and they live a long time. There isn't really enough time between ESO and then for that "ancestral right" to reach fruition. Just because slavery is wrong by today's standards doesn't mean it is wrong by the standards of the Dunmer, who have been shaped by their harsh environment.

KerinKor

Hopefully never.

Bouldercleave

So you want to RP a Slaver?

The real question I guess is WHY?

vestahls

KerinKor wrote: »

Hopefully never.

Y tho?

Kindly explain without resorting to the pedestrian application of real life morality in fictive contexts.

vestahls

Bouldercleave wrote: »

So you want to RP a Slaver?

The real question I guess is WHY?

I never thought of that actually - would be a cool idea, I remember loving that book about the Khajiit fur trader, and was struck by how limited the IG options would be to play a thing like that. I just want to play a Dunmer's Dunmer, who doesn't care about helping slaves and such. There are actually already options in the game, if you recieve quests from slaves to give them back to their masters or help kill them if they're plotting revenge. These are just few and farbetween, and apply to all characters funnily enough, not just the Dunmer, which makes it even more peculiar.

I mean, I suspect the reason is that the developers never had the time/resources to add more RP choices to the game. But it's a good topic to discuss, because the RP is supposed to be a significant aspect of this game and it isn't really.

vestahls

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Yes, yes, yes, and a thousand more yeses!

This is something that has always bothered me, especially in the Morrowind chapter. For example, the Telvanni questline assumes you despise slavery. Now tell me, why would my traditional, xenophobic, and racist Dunmer want to free the slaves and help an ambitious scaleback? At the very least, add additional dialogue that supports pro-slavery responses.

This is what prompted me to open this thread, actually. Deeply disappointed by such limitations, in an expansion called 'Morrowind' of all things. The Dunmer I play is very traditionalist as well, not actively involved in slavery but supporting the "ancestral right" side of things, and at the best of times indifferent to the 'beast races'. The RP side of things leaves you flapping like a stranded fish if you don't attempt to play the hero type of character.

I would be very happy to be able to play a hero, a villain, an anti-hero, an anti-villain, and everything else inbetween.

Danksta

Bouldercleave wrote: »

So you want to RP a Slaver?

The real question I guess is WHY?

But why is "why?" the real question? If I was an actor I'd like some of my roles to be the bad guy. I don't think rp'ing would be much different.

TheShadowScout

...
I could see something like that happening. Let them make a slavers guild, where you "capture" NPCs (possibly also defeated players in cyrodil) and "sell" them to a slaver camp (where of course captured players get an "escape" miniquest).
...
And in return... those who hate slavery can join an "abolitionist" guild, which gives them "free slaves" missions... and allows them to PvP all "slaver players", anywhere, anytime... with a perk that allows the use of Blade of Woe on slaver players!
...
I'd enjoy such a option, really...


But on a more serious side, you can play your character any way you like. But don't expect ZOS to allow the game into territory where they might have to fear an "Oh, noes, I am offended!" lawsuit...

Zardayne

Yea they can have quests where you can fetch flowers for some male elf's dead husband which is all PC and fine but good luck being able to RP or play a bad guy (slaver, necromancer, etc)..you're supposed to be a hero in the game according to ZOS, stick to the script man!

Danksta wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

So you want to RP a Slaver?

The real question I guess is WHY?

But why is "why?" the real question? If I was an actor I'd like some of my roles to be the bad guy. I don't think rp'ing would be much different.

This guy gets it. RP is acting. Sometime you just want to play the role of the villian and get all of the goodie goodies all flustered...The actor playing the part in real life isn't a raging psychopath that loves gutting people, he's just playing a part..

Sheva I 7 I

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/343525/pet-kjahiits-argonian-slaves-with-morrowind#latest

Bombashaman

Rickter wrote: »

dont give him a hard time. he is free to RP any way he would like, especially when it already exists in the game lore in a gme with an M rating.

These are mature themes. wanting to RP a slaver is no different than someone wanting to RP an assassin.

unless some how owning slaves is worse than killing people for a living?

its a game.

This.

TheShadowScout

Zardayne wrote: »

This guy gets it. RP is acting. Sometime you just want to play the role of the villian and get all of the goodie goodies all flustered...The actor playing the part in real life isn't a raging psychopath that loves gutting people, he's just playing a part..

True. And also true for RP. Some people who roleplay "evil jerk" type of characters are really nice out of character... of course, others use the "I am just roleplaying an evil jerk" to cover that they are indeed a jerk out of character, but that's besides the point.

Now, take what else some of our characters get up to... thievery, burglary, murder... the occasional world saving, which may make it a bit better in the big picture...

As I kept posting while only half-joking, I truly would not mind seeing player slavers in the game - as long as those who hate such could go adfter them. And yes, I personally would have liked the justice system PvP part to be implemented, make those criminal scum fear the righteous wrath of player enforcers... and those who prefer not to be PK'ed, just would have to remain law abiding citizens... (or at least close to, the player enforcers certainly would only have been able to PvP people when they have "kill on sight" bounty level after all)
But alas, the powers that be choose otherwise.

Now slavery is a bit of a more emotionally volitale topic then "normal crime"... especially over in the US I suppose. So I can see that they might not want to let their players have too much freedom in that - notice how one of Molag Bals titles and pretty much anything associated with it is also absent from the game (unless you read very carefully between the lines)?

And while I personally would love a game where all that is there... I can see why developers may be a little cautious to go to some parts with their games, as to avoid bad press or worse, lawsuits.

But hey, find the right people to play with, and you can still roleplay whatever you want!

platonicidealgirlfriend

The original Morrowind had one (1) quest in which you can aid a slaver, but otoh included an entire storyline centered around freeing slaves, optionally murdering every slaveholder you found even when they were plot significant, and rewarded you for doing so, so I'm not really following how this isn't in the spirit of Morrowind to not implicitly condone slavery.

DerAlleinTiger

Funny, I'm wondering why I wasn't able to play an anti-slavery KHAJIIT. You know, the race that's actually being enslaved. Yet somehow I couldn't really play an anti-slavery Khajiit in Morrowind. So you know, *** for tat? Just get railroaded dialogue forcing you into shrugging and turning your back on your own people being STABBED IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES and enslaved. Not a single option for us either until far, far, far later in the questline after killing more slaves through our own forced actions in another quest. So, you know, I guess do what we do and deal with it. As much as they continuously try to push that they've made an RPG and not an MMO, they don't have much RP in their quest choices or dialogue options.

nhisso

Would be awesome to play as an actual bad guy. But we live in a society of idiots who decided violence is all good but other things are uber taboo.

vestahls

nhisso wrote: »

Would be awesome to play as an actual bad guy. But we live in a society of idiots who decided violence is all good but other things are uber taboo.

Yeah, I too get the feeling ESO sometimes does the equivalent of covering a naked arse with blood and gore to make it more PC.

Hallothiel

The Dark Brotherhood questline is all about being an assassin, a murderer for hire. No redeeming world saving qualities whatsoever. So you can be 'bad' in this game.

Have been thinking about points raised and trying to work out why I seem to find it ok to kill randoms but slavery gets me upset. Perhaps because I like Khajiits & Argonians - might not feel the same if were, say, Bosmer.

But like the idea above. If you want to RP as a slaver then I want to be able to RP as one who liberates.

stewhead2ub17_ESO

The idea of slavery as it pertains to ESO should be no more repugnant or distasteful to people as murder or thieving for the Dark Brotherhood or Thieve's Guild. This is fantasy. It is a game with a mature theme and title. Nothing wrong with OP's idea of being a RP Slaver. I enjoy RP. Each of my 12 current char's are different from the other, with different ideologies and moral compasses.

vestahls

stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »

Nothing wrong with OP's idea of being a RP Slaver.

One correction in that I never said I want to RP a slaver. I just want to RP a slavery indifferent or abetting Dunmer with high in-group loyalty, as opposed to being defaulted to an abolitionist type with out-group loyalty.
But otherwise, yes to all. Happy to see so many RP oriented people, it greatly enriches the game imo.

TheShadowScout

Generally I have to say, more options are always a good thing. Even when they are merely "window dressing" dialouge options.

Personally I have felt the quibe of a missing option myself, though more often when the game railroads you into an "let the guilty go free" scenario (that mercenary leader in Alik'r... not only extorting the citizens with the harpy scam, but actually comitting murder, as evidenced by the trail of bodies you follow during the quest... and she gets to walk??? Or the covenant soldier captured in that school where they messed up and released the ghosts... 'just following orders' did not count for much at Nürnberg, why should I have to let that one go? etc.)
What can I say? I guess I am not the forgiving type, and neither are most of my characters...

But be that as it may, it would be nifty to have dialougei options. Possibly with consequences as well... I'd have loved it if you could have choices between condemning slavery, and supporting it in your dialouge choices - and if you support it, you might miss out on a special "save the slaves" quest, while getting offered an "help recapture figitive slaves" quest instead...
Choices.
Consequences.
Chances to make things different for different characters, thus raising replay value!

notimetocare

vestahls wrote: »

KerinKor wrote: »

Hopefully never.

Y tho?

Kindly explain without resorting to the pedestrian application of real life morality in fictive contexts.

Slavery is frowned upon by the vast majority of the world. Most people going into Vvardenfell would side with anti-slavers. Real life morality is mirrored in Tamriel apart from the disgusting Dunmer and Altmer bigots. Even then, few Dunmer and Altmer practice slavery. Indeed most Dunmer are despised by other dunmer (includes most PC dunmer because they arr tainted)

vestahls

TheShadowScout wrote: »

But hey, find the right people to play with, and you can still roleplay whatever you want!

DerAlleinTiger wrote: »

So, you know, I guess do what we do and deal with it.

To clarify for people who miss the point a little bit, this isn't about asking for brand new questlines for some specific thing, and it's not about giving up either, because that is never the solution, not on a product that keeps growing and evolving. This thread is about this:

MythicEmperor wrote: »

For example, the Telvanni questline assumes you despise slavery. Now tell me, why would my traditional, xenophobic, and racist Dunmer want to free the slaves and help an ambitious scaleback? At the very least, add additional dialogue that supports pro-slavery responses.

Playing with my Dunmer main, my reaction as an RPer to an Argonian wanting to climb the ranks of House Telvanni would be hitting Goodbye and never looking back. That's a whole part of the game I would not have access to on that character out of principle - this, in a game which bends over backwards lore-wise to allow you to experience the questlines for all three alliances regardless of the one you come from.
Now, I wouldn't like to say that ESO is an MMORPG that penalises players for RPing, because that would be ridiculous.

bebynnag

as an actor
please stop comparing acting to role playing
acting is bringing a character in a script to life on stage, or on the screen
roleplaying is creating a character, that is usually an extention of your real life personality however exagerated & bringing it to 'life'

i am not saying that people who want to role play a slaver are slavers in real life, im saying they are probablly so sick of doing what they are told to by parent/boss/partner rl that they want to roleplay someone with ultimate control.

Vagabond_Outcast

puffytheslayer wrote: »

roleplaying is creating a character, that is usually an extention of your real life personality however exagerated & bringing it to 'life'

As a roleplayer
Your idea about how roleplaying works is very narrow, to put it mildly

OP, thanks for bringing up this question, I share your feels.

stewhead2ub17_ESO

@puffytheslayer "i am not saying that people who want to role play a slaver are slavers in real life, im saying they are probablly so sick of doing what they are told to by parent/boss/partner rl that they want to roleplay someone with ultimate control."
lol wow...such a wanton and baseless allegation. Online correspondence psychology level stuff. I would submit to you that roleplaying is indeed a form of acting, but that could be another forum topic altogether. If you start one I will happily engage you in that topic. I have 12 different characters
I'm currently playing in ESO. Each is very different from the other. Some are pro slavery, some are anti. Some are racist. Some are not. Some are good, some evil, and some neutral. None of their personalities stems from my RL beliefs or a need to "roleplay someone with ultimate control".

notimetocare

vestahls wrote: »

stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »

Nothing wrong with OP's idea of being a RP Slaver.

One correction in that I never said I want to RP a slaver. I just want to RP a slavery indifferent or abetting Dunmer with high in-group loyalty, as opposed to being defaulted to an abolitionist type with out-group loyalty.
But otherwise, yes to all. Happy to see so many RP oriented people, it greatly enriches the game imo.

This assumes your Dunmer would have in-group status.

bebynnag

stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »

@puffytheslayer "i am not saying that people who want to role play a slaver are slavers in real life, im saying they are probablly so sick of doing what they are told to by parent/boss/partner rl that they want to roleplay someone with ultimate control."
lol wow...such a wanton and baseless allegation. Online correspondence psychology level stuff. I would submit to you that roleplaying is indeed a form of acting, but that could be another forum topic altogether. If you start one I will happily engage you in that topic. I have 12 different characters
I'm currently playing in ESO. Each is very different from the other. Some are pro slavery, some are anti. Some are racist. Some are not. Some are good, some evil, and some neutral. None of their personalities stems from my RL beliefs or a need to "roleplay someone with ultimate control".

ok 1st of all i didnt say all roleplaying was a need for ultimate control - i said people who would want to roleplay a slaver are probablly so sick of having no control in RL they want ultimate controle as a character


roleplaying is not acting, you create those characters, you decide what they do & how they do it.


when i am cast in a role i am given a script, a director (typically|) tells me how to play it, i sometimes have to stand where the camera operator or lighting department tells me, the whole time bringing life to that character.

so yes my understanding of roleplay is limited and maybe i am projecting my world view on to your hobby. just like you are injecting your world views & experiences into the characters you roleplay, diffrences is i acknowledge what im doing.

if you were to compare roleplaying to improv i wouldnt say anything, because the comparison is a valid one.

vestahls

DerAlleinTiger wrote: »

i am not saying that people who want to role play a slaver are slavers in real life, im saying they are probablly so sick of doing what they are told to by parent/boss/partner rl that they want to roleplay someone with ultimate control.

as someone with an MA in Psychology
please stick to acting



Sorry about that, not to be mean but, for the Nth time that's not what this is about. I mean I can't speak for others, but personally I just want accuracy in attitudes because I'm a stickler. If my main weren't a Dunmer, I probably never would've thought about opening this thread. And also I'm the type that evaluates a game based on replayability - play once with the good choices to get the good ending, then play the bad choices to get the bad ending, and I don't get this so much in ESO. Indeed, playing more than one character is not even encouraged since you can experience everything with one char. That is no bueno if you want to keep people playing.

I stated at the beginning of this thread that I'm a positive thinker, and I am. I believe that ZOS is constantly working to improve the game. Their idea of improvement might conflict with the community's idea of improvement sometimes, but at the end of the day it's in their interest to increase the quality => value of their product, and imo expanding on the RP aspect of the game would be a way to do that. They already dip their toe in this by putting irreversible choices in quest dialogue here and there.

and yes, I also support a thread for a discussion on acting vs RP

Fodore

People complaining about how OP wants to RP a slaver, what's the difference between having the telvanni, a pro slavery great house in the game and being a slaver yourself? It's a game, get over it. If he had slaves in rl then maybe we should be concerned for for the time being I'm not bothered