Why those that defend the resource management changes are wrong

kunquatb16_ESO

Maybe not all of you, I'm sure many are making good valid points in favour of the changes, but those using the following.

"whiners are just upset these changes end easy mode" - These changes do not end easy mode. In fact for some, easy mode just got even easier.
"Just upset you can't spam skills anymore" - Yes you can, changes don't stop that.
"You just need to adapt to the changes" - Perfectly good, varied skill specs need adaptation, but Spam spec don't, they can still spam just as before. This is back to front.
"You're just against change" - No, I like good changes that achieve what they set out to achieve. Placing a cost debuff on skills would be a big, and very welcome change (See: A better change is needed) Bring on the change.
"you need to learn to play" - After playing since closed beta, and all classes, with highly different skill sets, play styles, and resource management philosophies, I fail to see what I haven't learned. I've played leather wearing offtank sorc, Berserker warrior templars, blast fire and lightning mages, nightblade tanks, DK fire DW dps, NB buff healer, lock down frost sorc, and purespec templar healer, DK aoe poison specialist, NB stealther. In short, I doubt I need to learn to play.
"these changes stop sustained dps, at insane dps" - Nope, my sorc can still sustain at high dps. Can also one skill spam kill (very boring) with sustain and high dps.

Why These changes are bad.

The dev note state they are to end spamming of skills. Skills can still be spammed, effectively, and without any adaptation.
The dev notes state they are to increase Spec variation, and skill usage. Due to the asymmetric affect of stam based specs, and on large cost stam abilities, it decreases the range of viable spec, and therefore spec variation. Additionally, as lower cost skills now have an advantage as a result of these changes, skill usage variation will decrease. People are already saying just be a sorc, spam magicka skills. I however want to play in more than one way, with one spec, or be severely disadvantaged. One "king spec" does not make for fun, skillful, varied, or fair gameplay.

A better change is needed: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/346599/an-idea-to-improve-the-game-skill-spamming-solution#latest

Absolut_Turkey

You need to learn to play.

Qbiken

I´m against them simply because I feel they take the fun out of the game.

kunquatb16_ESO

Absolut_Turkey wrote: »

You need to learn to play.

lol, I need to learn to play Mahjong :P

Marto

Qbiken wrote: »

I´m against them simply because I feel they take the fun out of the game.

If doing one heavy attack every 10 seconds removes the "fun" out of the game...

Well, I don't know what to tell you.

Turelus

There is a difference though. Yes you can spam skills still but you can't spam skills and have the top DPS.

You have to make a choice somewhere now, sure the numbers for DPS haven't tanked but people are either using consumables, glyphs, sustains sets, more actively using skills etc.

The change has done a lot for what they wanted.

Jitterbug

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

Absolut_Turkey wrote: »

You need to learn to play.

lol, I need to learn to play Mahjong :P

nerf

kunquatb16_ESO

Turelus wrote: »

There is a difference though. Yes you can spam skills still but you can't spam skills and have the top DPS.

You have to make a choice somewhere now, sure the numbers for DPS haven't tanked but people are either using consumables, glyphs, sustains sets, more actively using skills etc.

The change has done a lot for what they wanted.

My sorc can spam, and very high dps, I already was making the choice of using lots of skill, layering ect. You can spam and have top dps. What you can't do, is that on a stam based spec. The vast majority of spam specs were already magicka based, these changes do not achieve what you claim. Nor do they achieve what the devs states as the aim.

Tommy_The_Gun

The changes are bad not because the whole idea of recurse management is bad... It is bad because it is poorly done.
Such changes should be done via soft & hard caps. For literally everything. Whatever it is max dmg, max health max magicka max stamina, magicka/stamina/health recovery - it should all be controlled.

Now we end up in a situation where racial passives are even more relevant that before. People will just go for their wallets and buy race change token and switch to Bosmer (+21% "free" stamina recovery) for stamina based builds or to Breton for magicka based builds (+3% "free" magicka cost reduction)....

Casterial

I'll say this again, some in my trade guild quit recently because they felt useless now.

DO NOT BUILD WITH CP. Do what I did, I tested all of my characters heavily without CP in a no CP campaign to get pretty decent stats.
I then waited until Morrowind. Come Morrowind I ended up having a huge bonus from CP ontop of my no CP builds. CP is a crutch, you shouldn't build around it. You should build without it and then see CP as a bonus. It wouldn't hurt your toon. Resource management really didn't change for any of my toons, I still eat pots like candy because I love the additional regen, try it.

colig

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliché#Thought-terminating_clich.C3.A9

Epona222

You know what? I don't actually give much of a you know what about any of this. Maybe it's because I'm old, maybe it's because I've seen real tragedy in my life (you know, like people actually dying and stuff), but I just can't seem to work up as much anger about any of this as some of you seem to be able to manage. It's a game - play it while you enjoy it, if you stop enjoying it go do something else, but for the love of all that is good please stop acting like it's some massive life-altering tragedy. Because it isn't.

Tyrion87

Marto wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

I´m against them simply because I feel they take the fun out of the game.

If doing one heavy attack every 10 seconds removes the "fun" out of the game...

Well, I don't know what to tell you.

If you think that doing only ONE heavy attack every TEN seconds is enough then you clearly haven't played the harder content yet.

Besides, just look at most of the current builds - most of them are based on heavy attacks.

The truth is the game lost its fast-paced combat and in fact now it requires even less skill to get satisfying results.

kunquatb16_ESO

colig wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliché#Thought-terminating_clich.C3.A9

Nice psychobabble, did you read the entire post, including that last line? anything there stopping you thinking?

TheShadowScout

kunquatb16_ESO

Epona222 wrote: »

You know what? I don't actually give much of a you know what about any of this. Maybe it's because I'm old, maybe it's because I've seen real tragedy in my life (you know, like people actually dying and stuff), but I just can't seem to work up as much anger about any of this as some of you seem to be able to manage. It's a game - play it while you enjoy it, if you stop enjoying it go do something else, but for the love of all that is good please stop acting like it's some massive life-altering tragedy. Because it isn't.

You buy a product, invest you money into it. Invest your time beta testing, for free, giving feedback. You invest further money to subscribe, even after freeplay. You walk away without giving feedback on why? without trying to keep the game fun? without attempting to make them see a better way?

Having known tragedy doesn't have any baring whatso ever on whether these changes are good or bad, no baring on game enjoyment, and although on a human level, it saddens me to know you've known tragedy, in the context on this convo, it's entire irrelevant.

Marto

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

I´m against them simply because I feel they take the fun out of the game.

If doing one heavy attack every 10 seconds removes the "fun" out of the game...

Well, I don't know what to tell you.

If you think that doing only ONE heavy attack every TEN seconds is enough then you clearly haven't played the harder content yet.

Besides, just look at most of the current builds - most of them are based on heavy attacks.

The truth is the game lost its fast-paced combat and in fact now it requires even less skill to get satisfying results.

I can do well with only 1 heavy attack every 12 seconds
If you can't, then maybe you need to change your build.

This update changes things. Spec for damage, and you'll be punish. A build has to now have a decent balance of damage, recovery, and surviveability.

And honestly, I'm quite tired of this "fast paced combat" many min-maxers talk about. Having to do 1 skill every second, with one light attack in between. Every. Single Second...?

That's not fun. That's not dynamic. That is dull, repetitive, and honestly sounds like a chore.

me_ming

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

I´m against them simply because I feel they take the fun out of the game.

If doing one heavy attack every 10 seconds removes the "fun" out of the game...

Well, I don't know what to tell you.

If you think that doing only ONE heavy attack every TEN seconds is enough then you clearly haven't played the harder content yet.

Besides, just look at most of the current builds - most of them are based on heavy attacks.

The truth is the game lost its fast-paced combat and in fact now it requires even less skill to get satisfying results.

^^ Exactly this. To those people who say that everything is ok. Well, show evidence that you are not loosing anything after this patch. I honestly suspect that these guys who say, "just L2P" or "adapt to changes" are just doing quests and world bosses and whatnot. I heavy attacked even then even if my builds (then) did not require them. I use consumables, I never in my gaming life spam a skill (that is no fun at all), so don't tell me I am just spamming spells. I agree this game's fast-paced combat is no more. I honestly hope the game will survive after this "Chapter", but I highly doubt that.

taiji2078

So ... it is better to spam 3 buttons instead of 1 button ... Those spam builds are mostly coming from the console players, since they cannot use a keyboard like the rest of us here.

If you want a game where you don't spam, play something else. There are plenty of other games where you need to hit 20 keys in 30 seconds of gameplay.

No matter how you put it, ESO is a VERY SIMPLE game. Spamming 1 button or 3 buttons makes no difference. At all. Why one who spams 3 buttons feels superior to one spamming only 1 ...??? Play druid in wow where you need to hit 100 times / minute half keyboard and then come back here to complain about skill spamming.

Stop nerfing this freakin' game classes. Adjust classes by buffing not nerfing ... It's all dev's fault if you ask me.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Marto wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

I´m against them simply because I feel they take the fun out of the game.

If doing one heavy attack every 10 seconds removes the "fun" out of the game...

Well, I don't know what to tell you.

Welcome to the World of Werwolf Gameplay..... High ability cost + nice passives for heavy attacks, trust me you'll get use to it and btw i don't think its boring

Qbiken

Marto wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

I´m against them simply because I feel they take the fun out of the game.

If doing one heavy attack every 10 seconds removes the "fun" out of the game...

Well, I don't know what to tell you.

More like constantly doing Heavy attacks......

dsalter

noticed the resource changes most impact defensive play, my magicka sorc can still do his job with almost little to no change (and no it's not a typical build it's an AoE cluster buster setup for crowds) where as my tanky setup DK and Templar alts can only do their jobs at half the efficiency.
gank builds on the otherhand are doing things at twice the efficiency as i'v experienced on my stam NB alt and my death recount...

Voxicity

Went into vWGT for the first time on my magdk since morrowind dropped with my wife tanking and 2 pugs from group finder.

Same build as before patch, all I did was change from health and mag food to witch mothers potent brew

I use 5 BSW front bar and 5 BSW Moon back bar and had absolutely 0 problems sustaining through vWGT, vCoH 1 or vDS1 while pulling pretty much the exact same dps as before patch

Of course vTrials might feel different, but for the love of god the resource 'problems' have really been blown out of proportion by people who either 1) Don't know how to build their character properly 2) Spam shields or heals and waste their resources because they can't move out of red

(Not aimed at OP by the way)

Turelus

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

There is a difference though. Yes you can spam skills still but you can't spam skills and have the top DPS.

You have to make a choice somewhere now, sure the numbers for DPS haven't tanked but people are either using consumables, glyphs, sustains sets, more actively using skills etc.

The change has done a lot for what they wanted.

My sorc can spam, and very high dps, I already was making the choice of using lots of skill, layering ect. You can spam and have top dps. What you can't do, is that on a stam based spec. The vast majority of spam specs were already magicka based, these changes do not achieve what you claim. Nor do they achieve what the devs states as the aim.

Stamina still needs some love and attention and that's going to be the case for a very long time. The game was never build with "stam builds" in mind, in fact it seems the base assumption was hybrids would be used. We the players pushed the game into this meta of Stam vs Mag though.

Sorcerer does indeed still need some addressing but that's sure to come with future updates. Of the damage parses I have seen so far there was a loss of DPS and those wishing to maintain the upper levels had to make some concessions with gear and builds.

If as you claim sorcerers didn't have to change a thing to have massive DPS, or "you can spam and have top DPS. What you can't d, is that on a stam based spec" then the changes are not the issue but overall stamina damage numbers.

If you have parse numbers for testing please post them up, I am interested to see what you've done and am more than willing to admit I am wrong.

kunquatb16_ESO

KaiVox22 wrote: »

Went into vWGT for the first time on my magdk since morrowind dropped with my wife tanking and 2 pugs from group finder.

Same build as before patch, all I did was change from health and mag food to witch mothers potent brew

I use 5 BSW front bar and 5 BSW Moon back bar and had absolutely 0 problems sustaining through vWGT, vCoH 1 or vDS1 while pulling pretty much the exact same dps as before patch

Of course vTrials might feel different, but for the love of god the resource 'problems' have really been blown out of proportion by people who either 1) Don't know how to build their character properly 2) Spam shields or heals and waste their resources because they can't move out of red

Not the point. The point is the changes don't stop spamming, the devs stated aim in making the changes. Spamming does need to be tackled, to keep variation in the game, these changes achieve the exact opposite.

Voxicity

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

KaiVox22 wrote: »

Went into vWGT for the first time on my magdk since morrowind dropped with my wife tanking and 2 pugs from group finder.

Same build as before patch, all I did was change from health and mag food to witch mothers potent brew

I use 5 BSW front bar and 5 BSW Moon back bar and had absolutely 0 problems sustaining through vWGT, vCoH 1 or vDS1 while pulling pretty much the exact same dps as before patch

Of course vTrials might feel different, but for the love of god the resource 'problems' have really been blown out of proportion by people who either 1) Don't know how to build their character properly 2) Spam shields or heals and waste their resources because they can't move out of red

Not the point. The point is the changes don't stop spamming, the devs stated aim in making the changes. Spamming does need to be tackled, to keep variation in the game, these changes achieve the exact opposite.

Yeah I completely agree with you. Honestly I didn't read the post properly before I posted, just assumed you were crying about the changes, my bad

supaskrub

Marto wrote: »

And honestly, I'm quite tired of this "fast paced combat" many min-maxers talk about. Having to do 1 skill every second, with one light attack in between. Every. Single Second...?

That's not fun. That's not dynamic. That is dull, repetitive, and honestly sounds like a chore.

That sounds like a job for a macro... Oh wait!

Turelus

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

KaiVox22 wrote: »

Went into vWGT for the first time on my magdk since morrowind dropped with my wife tanking and 2 pugs from group finder.

Same build as before patch, all I did was change from health and mag food to witch mothers potent brew

I use 5 BSW front bar and 5 BSW Moon back bar and had absolutely 0 problems sustaining through vWGT, vCoH 1 or vDS1 while pulling pretty much the exact same dps as before patch

Of course vTrials might feel different, but for the love of god the resource 'problems' have really been blown out of proportion by people who either 1) Don't know how to build their character properly 2) Spam shields or heals and waste their resources because they can't move out of red

Not the point. The point is the changes don't stop spamming, the devs stated aim in making the changes. Spamming does need to be tackled, to keep variation in the game, these changes achieve the exact opposite.

You keep saying that, I don't remember them saying it was to stop spamming (will concede I am wrong if linked evidence).

I believe it was to bring the game away from "all damage, no sustain issues" builds, bring the top level down damage wise, make people consider other builds, have phases in fights (damage and regen) etc.

me_ming

Marto wrote: »

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

I´m against them simply because I feel they take the fun out of the game.

If doing one heavy attack every 10 seconds removes the "fun" out of the game...

Well, I don't know what to tell you.

If you think that doing only ONE heavy attack every TEN seconds is enough then you clearly haven't played the harder content yet.

Besides, just look at most of the current builds - most of them are based on heavy attacks.

The truth is the game lost its fast-paced combat and in fact now it requires even less skill to get satisfying results.

I can do well with only 1 heavy attack every 12 seconds
If you can't, then maybe you need to change your build.

This update changes things. Spec for damage, and you'll be punish. A build has to now have a decent balance of damage, recovery, and surviveability.

And honestly, I'm quite tired of this "fast paced combat" many min-maxers talk about. Having to do 1 skill every second, with one light attack in between. Every. Single Second...?

That's not fun. That's not dynamic. That is dull, repetitive, and honestly sounds like a chore.

lol it's not people can't do it. Just because you can't AC doesn't mean the game isn't dynamic. If some people can weave light attack I'm sure they can weave a heavy attack, it's not the most difficult thing to do. Weaving a heavy attack is the most laborious "skill" to do. On the contrary doing a heavy attack every 12 seconds make the game dull, repetitive and more like a chore. lol.

Coilbox

Marto wrote: »

And honestly, I'm quite tired of this "fast paced combat" many min-maxers talk about. Having to do 1 skill every second, with one light attack in between. Every. Single Second...?

That's not fun. That's not dynamic. That is dull, repetitive, and honestly sounds like a chore.

"Combat in ESO is, and has always been, about fast-paced action where resource management plays a large part in performing effectively"

This has been copied and pasted here straight from Gina's patch note's post.

Who's talking about fast-paced combat again...? Min-maxers? You are wrong...

colig

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

colig wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliché#Thought-terminating_clich.C3.A9

Nice psychobabble, did you read the entire post, including that last line? anything there stopping you thinking?

I was referring to the people going l2play, not you.