What's the case against using Frost staff when Morrowind comes?

Bladerunner1

I'm still hearing that the optimized tanking build will be one hand and shield on both bars instead of running Frost staff on the back bar, even after all the nerfs to sustain and blocking. There hasn't been much brought up to explain it, though. Does anyone know?

From what I gather if someone were to slot a frost staff and a sword/shield they could split up their blocking resources between burning up magicka and burning up stamina. They could also use a defending-traited staff to get approximately the same resistance as a defending sword+shield. They could also be the one in the group who casts elemental drain for free to give everyone free magic regen. They could also have access to a free ranged taunt that returns back a chunk of magicka. The heavy staff attack is unlikely to be used in the middle of a boss fight, but it's still an option for an opening to every fight or during a lull in fighting.

I know one-hand/shield has a better blocking buff, but don't people slot defensive posture on just one bar anyway?

*Edit* forgot to add frost staff can debuff things with minor maim, and adds 20% more mitigation to a block, just the same as a shield.

*Edit 2* I'm also looking for feedback on weighing the new PTS changes: few DK magicka tanking abilities are getting cheaper. Ice staff heavies are faster and restore more magicka.

s7732425ub17_ESO

Because good tanks use their magicka to buff the group.

Weps

There is no PvE nerf to blocking.

Bladerunner1

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Because good tanks use their magicka to buff the group.

That makes perfect sense as long as the tank isn't dead from running low on stamina. So I take it the nerfs to blocking cooldowns, reduced stamina cost and class stamina maintenance can still be managed with regen or cost glyphs.

Weps wrote: »

There is no PvE nerf to blocking.

That's true as long as the tank is tactical with their blocking, but it was nerfed for noobs like me who are learning when to block. The devs reduced the cooldown for being charged Stamina or Magicka to block an attack to 0.25 seconds from 0.5 seconds.

Weps

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

That's true as long as the tank is tactical with their blocking, but it was nerfed for noobs like me who are learning when to block. The devs reduced the cooldown for being charged Stamina or Magicka to block an attack to 0.25 seconds from 0.5 seconds.

Exactly.
Unless you are tanking ALL the mobs and the adds in the dungeons and the DPS you're running with have less DPS than you, you won't have no in game mechanic where you have to block every 0.25 seconds.

Rungar

I have a magic tank with frost staff and shield on the other bar. For dragonknights it works great, though I haven't done any trials so I cant speak to that.

if your set up right you basically cannot run out even with no regen because you can switch between mana and stam on the fly and cast earthen heart abilities all day long with cost reduction glyphs.

in dungeons its awesome because you can use stonefist and fossilize to your hearts content

if you do go magic/hybrid tank for group content my favorite is vampire cloak, magicka furnace and chudan, Which works better than it sounds.

Gan Xing

With the Warden, you also have some CC abilities (cost mag/ obviously) that immobilizes enemies. I can imagine a sturdy tank that provides healing reduction (with one of the green skill lines) and cc. I know the warden skills after messing around with him, but I've been trying to find a setup that I like. (mostly for PvP, but capable in PvE)

Kerioko

1. All the best group support skills tanks have cost magicka. Some good examples are DK talons, chains, and ign. shield. NB refreshing path, funnel health, and shades. Even optional group support skills like purge and orbs.

2. Frost staff causes you to lose an item set bonus, meaning less options for optimization. Perfect example, the generic beginner end-game tank build, 5 tevas/5 ebon/2 bloodspawn, you would have to choose to give up the 5 piece on one of those sets while you are on frost staff bar.

3. Frost staff makes you lose out of stats and an extra trait. By having SnB on both bars, you can get that extra reinforced/sturdy trait and also get an extra stat bonus. This stat bonus is irrelevant if you are losing it on bar swap to frost staff due to stat desync.

4. Frost staff has no viable method to quickly taunt and debuff multiple adds. You are forced to run inner fire to have a viable taunt. Also, while ele. drain is a useful skill, it only debuffs spell resistance and not physical resistance, meaning you need 3 skill slots to do what pierce armor from SnB line does.

The only time I run something other than duel SnB is on my magNB tank. I will run master resto on off-bar as this allow me to preform the roles of both tank and healer in pledges, meaning I can run the dungeons with 3 dps!

DocFrost72

Weps wrote: »

There is no PvE nerf to blocking.

Axes may disagree, depending. Does blocking MoL's last boss' mini gun charge stam? (Second one I genuinely don't know)

Bladerunner1

Kerioko wrote: »

1. All the best group support skills tanks have cost magicka. Some good examples are DK talons, chains, and ign. shield. NB refreshing path, funnel health, and shades. Even optional group support skills like purge and orbs.

2. Frost staff causes you to lose an item set bonus, meaning less options for optimization. Perfect example, the generic beginner end-game tank build, 5 tevas/5 ebon/2 bloodspawn, you would have to choose to give up the 5 piece on one of those sets while you are on frost staff bar.

3. Frost staff makes you lose out of stats and an extra trait. By having SnB on both bars, you can get that extra reinforced/sturdy trait and also get an extra stat bonus. This stat bonus is irrelevant if you are losing it on bar swap to frost staff due to stat desync.

4. Frost staff has no viable method to quickly taunt and debuff multiple adds. You are forced to run inner fire to have a viable taunt. Also, while ele. drain is a useful skill, it only debuffs spell resistance and not physical resistance, meaning you need 3 skill slots to do what pierce armor from SnB line does.

The only time I run something other than duel SnB is on my magNB tank. I will run master resto on off-bar as this allow me to preform the roles of both tank and healer in pledges, meaning I can run the dungeons with 3 dps!

Thanks for that response. I figured it had a lot to do with the lost set bonus and stat enchantment.

I was assuming elemental drain is going to be a big deal after Morrowind since it gives the DPS 400 magicka per second for 24 seconds, yet it does no damage and might feel like a waste of a slot for a DPS.

And yeah the staff heavy attack is ridiculously long on live, it's not much use for grabbing aggro on the fly, but I'd still use other skills for that part.

Kerioko

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

I was assuming elemental drain is going to be a big deal after Morrowind since it gives the DPS 400 magicka per second for 24 seconds, yet it does no damage and might feel like a waste of a slot for a DPS.

Considering most healers run a destro/resto build, healers usually have ele. drain slotted, it is just to good for them to not use it. And for healers that run duel resto, they can slot siphon spirit for the magsteal (or as a templar can use the AOE magic steal) and the magicka steal is the only real use of ele drain. The spell resistance debuff is pointless as pierce armor gives you both debuffs.

I can see one instance where a frost staff would come in handy and that would be a warden offtank/off heals, running frost staff/resto staff, for beginner vet trials groups where having an extra tank/healer helps to prevent constant wipes. Still I think SnB/Resto would be the better way to go with this, as you need you magicka pool to cast your heals/support skills, so you would want your stam for blocking.

Off topic, I did try a frost/resto ult. gen tank build on my mNB when the change went live. I ran 5 shalk/5 dragon/2 bloodspawn (shalk ice staff/dragon resto with warhorn). For the pledge groups I didn't get immediately kicked from (not DK, and no SnB the main reason), it was successful, but a lot more challenging then my usual SnB/Resto pledge build with Ebon/SPC/Sentinel and master resto offbar.

Rinmaethodain

Because tanking with a stick is humiliating and disgusting.

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Because good tanks use their magicka to buff the group.

That makes perfect sense as long as the tank isn't dead from running low on stamina. So I take it the nerfs to blocking cooldowns, reduced stamina cost and class stamina maintenance can still be managed with regen or cost glyphs.

Weps wrote: »

There is no PvE nerf to blocking.

That's true as long as the tank is tactical with their blocking, but it was nerfed for noobs like me who are learning when to block. The devs reduced the cooldown for being charged Stamina or Magicka to block an attack to 0.25 seconds from 0.5 seconds.

Weps wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

That's true as long as the tank is tactical with their blocking, but it was nerfed for noobs like me who are learning when to block. The devs reduced the cooldown for being charged Stamina or Magicka to block an attack to 0.25 seconds from 0.5 seconds.

Exactly.
Unless you are tanking ALL the mobs and the adds in the dungeons and the DPS you're running with have less DPS than you, you won't have no in game mechanic where you have to block every 0.25 seconds.

Please tell that to vAA HM where 4 axes hit you constantly or vMOL HM where rakkhat minigun ticks damage every 0.3 sec or in vHRC HM where Warriors Channeled Swipes deliver 60k+ damage in matter of few seconds.

SienneYviete

Weps wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

That's true as long as the tank is tactical with their blocking, but it was nerfed for noobs like me who are learning when to block. The devs reduced the cooldown for being charged Stamina or Magicka to block an attack to 0.25 seconds from 0.5 seconds.

Exactly.
Unless you are tanking ALL the mobs and the adds in the dungeons and the DPS you're running with have less DPS than you, you won't have no in game mechanic where you have to block every 0.25 seconds.

Have you ever tanked a trial?

Autolycus

Mage's axes in vAA do not attack in a synchronized fashion. The rate at which you block each axe will not necessary fall at standard intervals. What this means is that you may get hit by all the axes at the same time, or at completely odd intervals. The nature of their light vs. heavy attack mechanic means that their attack pattern will typically (if not always) be different at the end of the fight vs. the beginning. Tanks should plan accordingly; One should be able to sustain if being charged at quarter-second intervals, but one will not be charged every quarter-second. It varies due to the independent attack patterns of each axe.

Regarding managing the cost, there will be times where the tank is depleting stamina while blocking these axes at a faster rate than currently on live, and there will be times where there is barely or no noticeable difference. In large part, the changes to block cost do not have a major impact on the tank's ability to manage their stamina if the tank is already used to the fight. There are many situations in which managing these costs will be substantially more difficult, but for most situations in trials, it's not a huge change. The changes to block cost have the most dramatic effect on tanking vet dungeons and in Cyrodiil.

Edit: Someone mentioned Rhakkat's chaingun mechanic above; These changes will likely make managing stamina during this mechanic more difficult, as the chaingun has the potential to charge us for blocking more frequently than currently on live. However, it is not the only thing being blocked. There are meteors and adds that the main tank will be dealing with as well, and this occurs during the whole fight. Thus, tanking Rhakkat will be more difficult to manage overall anyway from these changes, not just the chaingun mechanic.