Can we now replace Khajiit and Wood Elfs near useless "Stealthy" Passive

Twohothardware

With damage from Stealth being majorly nerfed in Morrowind and since the only class that even really uses Stealth is Nightblade and since Stealth serves no real purpose in end-game PvE content can we replace this "Stealthy" passive on the Khajiit and Wood Elf with something/anything that's more viable across all Classes? Because even with Redguards nerf it will still have the best sustain so some of these other Stamina classes will be somewhat lacking competitively in Battlegrounds.

It doesn't have to be a big bonus that then makes the two races unbalanced but something like +4% max Stamina and +10% increased Sprint speed on Khajiit and bonus Bow damage on Wood Elf would both be great.

Darkdex

Bonus bow damage to woodelf would be nice, I can be a real Archer in endgame PvE with that juicy % increased dmg

Avran_Sylt

Hell no. I love that passive.

Alllllllssooooooo, would love some feedback on this:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/334445/idea-racial-passives-character-traits-updated-4-29/p1

imenace

sure lets nerf ganking some more shall we? why the *** would they remove the passive? not everyone is a PVE only player you know.

Twohothardware

imenace wrote: »

sure lets nerf ganking some more shall we? why the *** would they remove the passive? not everyone is a PVE only player you know.

Well I'm mostly a PvP only player and I'm asking for the change because the passive has no purpose on now 4 other classes. You rarely if never attack from stealth while playing a StamDK, StamSorc, Stamplar, or now StamWarden. That leaves a single class playing a single way (gank builds) where an entire passive skill line has value.

Things like increased max stamina, increased sprint speed, increased bow damage, increased poison damage, ect would all make more of a difference on Khajiit and Wood Elf than this Stealthy passive, even on a Nightblade, and they would be bonuses that make the two races better alternatives in PvP to Redguard for all 5 Stamina classes.

SanTii.92

I would actually like to be able to play khajiit or bosmer.

It's time.

NightbladeMechanics

One nerf to stealth damage does not suddenly make stealth "useless." Do the math.

Twohothardware wrote: »

imenace wrote: »

sure lets nerf ganking some more shall we? why the *** would they remove the passive? not everyone is a PVE only player you know.

Well I'm mostly a PvP only player and I'm asking for the change because the passive has no purpose on now 4 other classes. You rarely if never attack from stealth while playing a StamDK, StamSorc, Stamplar, or now StamWarden. That leaves a single class playing a single way (gank builds) where an entire passive skill line has value.

Things like increased max stamina, increased sprint speed, increased bow damage, increased poison damage, ect would all make more of a difference on Khajiit and Wood Elf than this Stealthy passive, even on a Nightblade, and they would be bonuses that make the two races better alternatives in PvP to Redguard for all 5 Stamina classes.

First paragraph: stam DKs actually make harder hitting gankers than nightblades. Nightblade is preferred because of cloak escapes, not the gank damage itself. I've also seen nasty damage from gank stamplars and one stam sorc. It's possible, just not optimal. That's how class diversity works.

Second paragraph: I would love to see unique racial bonuses added to these races, as long as they aren't represented on other races and don't imbalance PvP or PvE. Also, redguard has already been nerfed next patch. It's actually in a competitive place compared to the other stamina races. Again, do the math.

Twohothardware

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Also, redguard has already been nerfed next patch. It's actually in a competitive place compared to the other stamina races. Again, do the math.

I have done the math as have others and it is still clearly ahead for Stamina sustain and gets +10% max stamina on top of it which makes more damage difference than Khajiit's 8% crit bonus.

Here's a post from today showing the results of a Redguard vs Khajiit and other races in heavy armor.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4128671#Comment_4128671

Results:

Redguard:
Normal stam regen: 1074
Adrenaline rush: 316,8 every 2 seconds if I do meele damge.
Constitution 270,5 every 2 seconds if I take damage.

Total: 1661,3 stam regen in a combat situation.

I run out of stamina in 50 seconds.

Khajiit:
Normal stam regen: 1082
Constitution 270,5 every 2 seconds if I take damage.

Total: 1352,5 stam regen in a combat situation.

I run out of stamina in 37 seconds.

Caff32

Khajiit needs a max stam. They were going to do it a few patches ago but decided to give it to Wood Elf instead. They should revisit that and get Khajiit the stam bonus they deserve.

miteba

Sorry OP, i hope they dont listen to you.
I may use a niche build, but it is focused on stealth.
They almost ruined it last time, when they changed the inner light skill to automatically take they players out of the shadows ...

Rouven

I'd say we take away all racial passives that have any impact on PvE or PvP endgame to make sure we raise the bar and lower the ceiling. That way we will have a more racial diverse population which will bring more flavour to the game and more flexibility to the builds.

All "unimportant" existing passives which are purely cosmetic will now go into a pool upon character creation and you can pick and chose up to five regardless of race.

Gilvoth

if a change must happen then, i would like to see 25% sneak speed increase on wood elf and Khajiit.

GreenSoup2HoT

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

if a change must happen then, i would like to see 25% sneak speed increase on wood elf and Khajiit.

Yeah and force every ganker in game to play 1 race.... nty. I like my Imperial gankster ty.

Floki_Vilgerdarson

How about we all stop asking for changes and let this train wreck come to a full stop.

Asking Zos for changes usually ends in a bad way.

Hurika

Floki_Vilgerdarson wrote: »

How about we all stop asking for changes and let this train wreck come to a full stop.

Asking Zos for changes usually ends in a bad way.

In all fairness though, not asking for changes ends up in a bad way too.

Twohothardware

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

if a change must happen then, i would like to see 25% sneak speed increase on wood elf and Khajiit.

Anything would be a buff from the current Stealthy passive. The 10% damage bonus in Stealth is useless for every class but Nightblade because it's a bonus for a single ranged attack and then you're not able to enter stealth again without Cloak. There doesn't need to be two different races with this exact same perk, especially with them both being on the same Alliance.

Khajiit needs a bonus to max Stamina as it is the only Stamina race that doesn't have one or it needs a different unique perks that makes it better suited to play on all 5 Stamina classes instead of only Nightblade.

QuebraRegra

the nerf is a nerf to nightblades... that were already the bottom of the totem poll in terms of performance.

That said, I'd like some kinda animal related Bosmer racial that would be in keeping with the lore and the other TES games. Maybe a % chance to summon a wolf, rat, bat, etc.? Maybe anytime an animal attacks a Bosmer it will turn friendly for x amout of time on a long cooldown?

Not terribly PVP useful, but in keeping with the game series, lore.

NightbladeMechanics

Twohothardware wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Also, redguard has already been nerfed next patch. It's actually in a competitive place compared to the other stamina races. Again, do the math.

I have done the math as have others and it is still clearly ahead for Stamina sustain and gets +10% max stamina on top of it which makes more damage difference than Khajiit's 8% crit bonus.

Here's a post from today showing the results of a Redguard vs Khajiit and other races in heavy armor.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4128671#Comment_4128671

Results:

Redguard:
Normal stam regen: 1074
Adrenaline rush: 316,8 every 2 seconds if I do meele damge.
Constitution 270,5 every 2 seconds if I take damage.

Total: 1661,3 stam regen in a combat situation.

I run out of stamina in 50 seconds.

Khajiit:
Normal stam regen: 1082
Constitution 270,5 every 2 seconds if I take damage.

Total: 1352,5 stam regen in a combat situation.

I run out of stamina in 37 seconds.

There were other variables at play. Given those stats, the Redguard would sustain longer. This test, according to just the numbers here, chalks up to human error.

NightbladeMechanics

I'm going to add that the Stealthy passive on Khajiits and Wood Elves will actually become more valuable / necessary for PvP gankers next patch than it is now following the nerf to stealth crit damage.

The reason being because you need to maximize your damage to continue killing following the nerf, and this is still one of the highest multiplicative damage amplifiers in the game.

SodanTok

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I'm going to add that the Stealthy passive on Khajiits and Wood Elves will actually become more valuable / necessary for PvP gankers next patch than it is now following the nerf to stealth crit damage.

The reason being because you need to maximize your damage to continue killing following the nerf, and this is still one of the highest multiplicative damage amplifiers in the game.

That is true. That is why ZoS should have never go with such global change. It was one small wheel in the whole ganking machine that is stupidly fragmented all over the place.

Default stealth behavior. Racial passives. Medium Armor passives. Legerdemain passives. Class passives. CP. Gear bonuses. Vampire.

Everything has small part that boosts stealth, forcing every ganker to go almost the same route and forcing everyone that is unfortunately on similar (but non stealth) path to have so many useless bonuses while others, using "different path" enjoy the full package.

It is stupid design, but will unfortunately never be priority. Making threads to change one small part by part is probably the only way (way with better chances than zero) that something will change.

The CP system should have been about this. Allowing people to branch. Stealthy ganker putting points where they will get benefit to stealth and gank. Not everyone just putting points to the same damage passives. Who even uses stealth cost reduction passive. There is 40% of it in Legerdemain and 49% in Medium armor. Who uses that 120CP star with stealth on heavy attack kill...

tldr;
CP Shade (Shadow Tree) -> Reduces your detection radius in Stealth
CP Shadowstrike (Shadow Tree) -> Increases damage done while in Stealth by 10%

Witar

Would trade that passive for my dunmer lava resistance

makreth

Witar wrote: »

Would trade that passive for my dunmer lava resistance

True but the racial you mention is the initial passive (something like "cosmetic") all classes have. Khajiit has the lockpicking bonus, bosmer fall damage reduction etc. Those are the equivalent.

Magıc

Seeing as ganking shouldn't even be apart of the game, I say let's take away this passive and give it w/e else aslong as it has nothing to do with stealth.

NightbladeMechanics

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I'm going to add that the Stealthy passive on Khajiits and Wood Elves will actually become more valuable / necessary for PvP gankers next patch than it is now following the nerf to stealth crit damage.

The reason being because you need to maximize your damage to continue killing following the nerf, and this is still one of the highest multiplicative damage amplifiers in the game.

Who even uses stealth cost reduction passive. There is 40% of it in Legerdemain and 49% in Medium armor. Who uses that 120CP star with stealth on heavy attack kill...

Um....

Every magicka ganker ever used Shade. Stam gankers use a combination of Shade and Tumbling.

Every ganker who uses heavy attacks as part of their combo uses Shadowstrike. Like literally every single one. If you're not, then you're like a year behind the times and missing a crucial component of your build. Have you ever watched Sribes or my ganking before?

SodanTok

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I'm going to add that the Stealthy passive on Khajiits and Wood Elves will actually become more valuable / necessary for PvP gankers next patch than it is now following the nerf to stealth crit damage.

The reason being because you need to maximize your damage to continue killing following the nerf, and this is still one of the highest multiplicative damage amplifiers in the game.

Who even uses stealth cost reduction passive. There is 40% of it in Legerdemain and 49% in Medium armor. Who uses that 120CP star with stealth on heavy attack kill...

Um....

Every magicka ganker ever used Shade. Stam gankers use a combination of Shade and Tumbling.

Every ganker who uses heavy attacks as part of their combo uses Shadowstrike. Like literally every single one. If you're not, then you're like a year behind the times and missing a crucial component of your build. Have you ever watched Sribes or my ganking before?

Well, that is magicka ganking. Haven't seen much of that for like a year. But my point still stands. There are so many stealthy passives all over the place which could easily by reduced to lesser amount (while keeping the effects). I would disagree that every ganker uses Shadowstrike. Maybe you meant "many" and "magicka gankers". And even of that part I would say many use it because it simply is there.

I would also assume magicka gankers dont wear 5 medium body pieces or use bosmer or khajiit races. So if someone made some design decision that would distribute these passives somewhere else, everybody including magicka gankers would only profit.
(Putting detection reduction in legerdemain, greatly buffing stealth reduction cost CP while removing that part from medium or even giving it to vampire, putting bonus stealth damage to CP or just giving it globally to everyone, ...)

NightbladeMechanics

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I'm going to add that the Stealthy passive on Khajiits and Wood Elves will actually become more valuable / necessary for PvP gankers next patch than it is now following the nerf to stealth crit damage.

The reason being because you need to maximize your damage to continue killing following the nerf, and this is still one of the highest multiplicative damage amplifiers in the game.

Who even uses stealth cost reduction passive. There is 40% of it in Legerdemain and 49% in Medium armor. Who uses that 120CP star with stealth on heavy attack kill...

Um....

Every magicka ganker ever used Shade. Stam gankers use a combination of Shade and Tumbling.

Every ganker who uses heavy attacks as part of their combo uses Shadowstrike. Like literally every single one. If you're not, then you're like a year behind the times and missing a crucial component of your build. Have you ever watched Sribes or my ganking before?

Well, that is magicka ganking. Haven't seen much of that for like a year. But my point still stands. There are so many stealthy passives all over the place which could easily by reduced to lesser amount (while keeping the effects). I would disagree that every ganker uses Shadowstrike. Maybe you meant "many" and "magicka gankers". And even of that part I would say many use it because it simply is there.

I would also assume magicka gankers dont wear 5 medium body pieces or use bosmer or khajiit races. So if someone made some design decision that would distribute these passives somewhere else, everybody including magicka gankers would only profit.
(Putting detection reduction in legerdemain, greatly buffing stealth reduction cost CP while removing that part from medium or even giving it to vampire, putting bonus stealth damage to CP or just giving it globally to everyone, ...)

It would by fun to get the Stealthy passive on a high elf gankblade, but that might be op. Magicka gankers already deal more damage than stamina.

And condensing stealth bonuses into fewer places seems arbitrary. There will always be a mathematically optimal and widely replicated setup for each ganking archetype, and a few diverse ones are already successful. Why change what isn't broken?

Actually I said that every ganker who uses a heavy attack as part of his combo uses Shadowstrike. Those who don't are not running optimized builds. These are true statements.

Here's some of my One Tamriel mageblade ganking. You can look up Sribes for the stamina counterpart. This is why Shadowstrike is so necessary. If your combo kills them, they'll never even see you. Heavy attack ganking will only get stronger next patch, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl8hWqztL8g

alexkdd99

Rouven wrote: »

I'd say we take away all racial passives that have any impact on PvE or PvP endgame to make sure we raise the bar and lower the ceiling. That way we will have a more racial diverse population which will bring more flavour to the game and more flexibility to the builds.

All "unimportant" existing passives which are purely cosmetic will now go into a pool upon character creation and you can pick and chose up to five regardless of race.

Or just place the passives into tiers and allow people to pick 3 passives, 1 from each tier when they create their characters. That way everyone can keep their passives and zos can quit buffing and nerfing them.

All races would have the same opportunity to have any of the passives without having to do anymore balancing around racial passives.

Basically your idea except leave the important passives to choose from.

SodanTok

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I'm going to add that the Stealthy passive on Khajiits and Wood Elves will actually become more valuable / necessary for PvP gankers next patch than it is now following the nerf to stealth crit damage.

The reason being because you need to maximize your damage to continue killing following the nerf, and this is still one of the highest multiplicative damage amplifiers in the game.

Who even uses stealth cost reduction passive. There is 40% of it in Legerdemain and 49% in Medium armor. Who uses that 120CP star with stealth on heavy attack kill...

Um....

Every magicka ganker ever used Shade. Stam gankers use a combination of Shade and Tumbling.

Every ganker who uses heavy attacks as part of their combo uses Shadowstrike. Like literally every single one. If you're not, then you're like a year behind the times and missing a crucial component of your build. Have you ever watched Sribes or my ganking before?

Well, that is magicka ganking. Haven't seen much of that for like a year. But my point still stands. There are so many stealthy passives all over the place which could easily by reduced to lesser amount (while keeping the effects). I would disagree that every ganker uses Shadowstrike. Maybe you meant "many" and "magicka gankers". And even of that part I would say many use it because it simply is there.

I would also assume magicka gankers dont wear 5 medium body pieces or use bosmer or khajiit races. So if someone made some design decision that would distribute these passives somewhere else, everybody including magicka gankers would only profit.
(Putting detection reduction in legerdemain, greatly buffing stealth reduction cost CP while removing that part from medium or even giving it to vampire, putting bonus stealth damage to CP or just giving it globally to everyone, ...)

It would by fun to get the Stealthy passive on a high elf gankblade, but that might be op. Magicka gankers already deal more damage than stamina.

And condensing stealth bonuses into fewer places seems arbitrary. There will always be a mathematically optimal and widely replicated setup for each ganking archetype, and a few diverse ones are already successful. Why change what isn't broken?

Actually I said that every ganker who uses a heavy attack as part of his combo uses Shadowstrike. Those who don't are not running optimized builds. These are true statements.

Here's some of my One Tamriel mageblade ganking. You can look up Sribes for the stamina counterpart. This is why Shadowstrike is so necessary. If your combo kill them, they'll never even see you. Heavy attack ganking will only get stronger next patch, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl8hWqztL8g

Obviously there will always be optimal way for ganking. My point was more these "steps" for ganking all over the place. If you walk them without intent to gank, you quickly collect several useless passives. Everytime you play nonganker as khajiit/bosmer in medium armor you are not using 2 high impact passives (pretend to remove 1 passive from your light armor and 1 from high elf). When it could easily be done by just 1 or moved somewhere else even benefiting other setups in different armor/race.

ccfeeling

Exhange with delf and helf , let them feel it

NightbladeMechanics

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I'm going to add that the Stealthy passive on Khajiits and Wood Elves will actually become more valuable / necessary for PvP gankers next patch than it is now following the nerf to stealth crit damage.

The reason being because you need to maximize your damage to continue killing following the nerf, and this is still one of the highest multiplicative damage amplifiers in the game.

Who even uses stealth cost reduction passive. There is 40% of it in Legerdemain and 49% in Medium armor. Who uses that 120CP star with stealth on heavy attack kill...

Um....

Every magicka ganker ever used Shade. Stam gankers use a combination of Shade and Tumbling.

Every ganker who uses heavy attacks as part of their combo uses Shadowstrike. Like literally every single one. If you're not, then you're like a year behind the times and missing a crucial component of your build. Have you ever watched Sribes or my ganking before?

Well, that is magicka ganking. Haven't seen much of that for like a year. But my point still stands. There are so many stealthy passives all over the place which could easily by reduced to lesser amount (while keeping the effects). I would disagree that every ganker uses Shadowstrike. Maybe you meant "many" and "magicka gankers". And even of that part I would say many use it because it simply is there.

I would also assume magicka gankers dont wear 5 medium body pieces or use bosmer or khajiit races. So if someone made some design decision that would distribute these passives somewhere else, everybody including magicka gankers would only profit.
(Putting detection reduction in legerdemain, greatly buffing stealth reduction cost CP while removing that part from medium or even giving it to vampire, putting bonus stealth damage to CP or just giving it globally to everyone, ...)

It would by fun to get the Stealthy passive on a high elf gankblade, but that might be op. Magicka gankers already deal more damage than stamina.

And condensing stealth bonuses into fewer places seems arbitrary. There will always be a mathematically optimal and widely replicated setup for each ganking archetype, and a few diverse ones are already successful. Why change what isn't broken?

Actually I said that every ganker who uses a heavy attack as part of his combo uses Shadowstrike. Those who don't are not running optimized builds. These are true statements.

Here's some of my One Tamriel mageblade ganking. You can look up Sribes for the stamina counterpart. This is why Shadowstrike is so necessary. If your combo kill them, they'll never even see you. Heavy attack ganking will only get stronger next patch, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl8hWqztL8g

Obviously there will always be optimal way for ganking. My point was more these "steps" for ganking all over the place. If you walk them without intent to gank, you quickly collect several useless passives. Everytime you play nonganker as khajiit/bosmer in medium armor you are not using 2 high impact passives (pretend to remove 1 passive from your light armor and 1 from high elf). When it could easily be done by just 1 or moved somewhere else even benefiting other setups in different armor/race.

I use Stealthy on my non-ganker wood elf nightblade all the time. Any attack from cloak benefits from the passive, so I make a point to burst from cloak whenever possible.

Imryll

QuebraRegra wrote: »

the nerf is a nerf to nightblades... that were already the bottom of the totem poll in terms of performance.

That said, I'd like some kinda animal related Bosmer racial that would be in keeping with the lore and the other TES games. Maybe a % chance to summon a wolf, rat, bat, etc.? Maybe anytime an animal attacks a Bosmer it will turn friendly for x amout of time on a long cooldown?

Not terribly PVP useful, but in keeping with the game series, lore.

Time for me to repeat my suggestion that Bosmer get a bonus to pet damage?