ZOS, Adjust Melee DPS to do more than Ranged (risk/reward)

HeroOfNone

Dear ZOS,

Please increase the TOP stamina melee DPS potential to be 10% (non-VMA) to 20% (VMA) to the top Magicka ranged DPS build (magicka Sorcerer). Further, please increase magicka melee DPS builds to be 5% more damage than ranged magicka DPS builds. These should be the guidelines for future buffs/nerfs.

A breakdown example:
Build type Base | VMA
Magicka Ranged DPS: 0% | 10%
Magicka Melee DPS: 5% | 15%
Stamina Ranged DPS: -3% | 7%
Stamina Melee DPS: 10% | 20%

This is a basic breakdown where the top damage dealer (a sorcerer ranged DPS) is used as baseline and where other builds should fall.

The reason for this is risk/reward, which is entirely skewed in favor of ranged magicka DPS right now. Min/max guilds, even casual guilds, don't want to bring in stamina DPS into trials on live. In the next patch, several nerfs to certain abilities and no nerfs to the Magicka sorcerer make them the strongest and safest class to play for PVE. Several reasons include:
- anti-stack mechanics discourage many melee from getting close to bosses
- stamina DPS builds typically have less heals and no damage shields
- "boss is loose" situations melee builds have little time to dodge or run away compared to range
- Weak stamina weapon ultimates that are limited range and low DPS to its ranged counter part
- Stamina builds are using up the same resource they need to block or dodge with for boss mechanics
- Stamina builds are typically less damage and more narrow without VMA weapons and checking that sets like NMG aren't bring double stacked.


Some of these differences were understandable up to now, given the crit damage bonus from stealth for PVP, but now that it's removed there is no point. Way back when the bow was nerfed since it had high damage out of stealth and could 3 to 4 shot burst players, the reason given was there was all the reward and none of the risk. Now magicka ranged builds have reduced risk and they have the high DPS, so reward with no risk again.

It's time to adjust the damage and follow the philosophy of risk/reward again. I don't care if we nerf ranged abilities or buff melee, but the baselines above should show where the average needs to be to complete harder content.


Thank you for your time.

HeroOfNone

Based on the above, supporters of this philosophy feel free to deep dive skills, sets, and other mechanics that might need adjustments.

Avran_Sylt

Maybe they can look at this by increasing/decreasing crit chance (or damage) depending on if an ability is projectile based or is considered a melee attack (think how viper's looks at attacks).

spiiros

The biggest problem isn't the single target factor. It's the cleave factor, that's it and survivability. Stam DK's hit very strong, but have little to no cleave damage, Stam Sorcs have a lot better cleave damage, but less single target damage, etc. A lot of trial based situations is cleave damage. If all you had to do is hit a single target, stam wouldn't be as bad as a choice, which they weren't in the past. I agree they need a buff, but a huge factor is still the cleave aspect, which the new caltrop "buff" isn't going to help either, especially with sustain... unfortunately.

They should just honestly buff everything to hit about the same, so there is more variety in what you can choose for endgame content, so it's not just running the min/max meta.

Minno

Could be there staff buffs to AOE/single target DMG from last patch are helping close the gap.

Though in PvP, I'm seeing 8k-9k frags/dark flares, 9k wrecking blows, 9k Snipes, 9k incaps, 6k surprise attacks. All while my fire staff heavy crits for 4k, eclipse bursts for 3k and 1k Vamps bane . I'd say the DMG is there currently, depending on if the ability is instant cast or a cast time.

In Bgs, I was seeing similar results. I can't say for pve, I never run it willingly.

HeroOfNone

spiiros wrote: »

The biggest problem isn't the single target factor. It's the cleave factor, that's it and survivability. Stam DK's hit very strong, but have little to no cleave damage, Stam Sorcs have a lot better cleave damage, but less single target damage, etc. A lot of trial based situations is cleave damage. If all you had to do is hit a single target, stam wouldn't be as bad as a choice, which they weren't in the past. I agree they need a buff, but a huge factor is still the cleave aspect, which the new caltrop "buff" isn't going to help either, especially with sustain... unfortunately.

They should just honestly buff everything to hit about the same, so there is more variety in what you can choose for endgame content, so it's not just running the min/max meta.

Therein is a difference between single target and AOE, but if your in the thick of it doing AOE damage then there is even more reason that melee range abilities should be doing more than ranged.

As for hitting about the same, no, that won't do. You have a lot more risk being in melee range, and double that as a stamina build with few self heals or shields. It's time to raise the reward.

HeroOfNone

Minno wrote: »

Could be there staff buffs to AOE/single target DMG from last patch are helping close the gap.

Though in PvP, I'm seeing 8k-9k frags/dark flares, 9k wrecking blows, 9k Snipes, 9k incaps, 6k surprise attacks. All while my fire staff heavy crits for 4k, eclipse bursts for 3k and 1k Vamps bane . I'd say the DMG is there currently, depending on if the ability is instant cast or a cast time.

In Bgs, I was seeing similar results. I can't say for pve, I never run it willingly.

PVP will have to be balanced, but most of the skills you're listing aren't used in PVE DPS builds (frags, incaps, and surprise attacks maybe). The burst abilities aren't my focus here, though it's important to note them since the original reason for nerfing bow was the burst combo it had in PVP. With the removal of stealth damage bonuses though a lot of those combos won't work now, or at least, not as well as the magicka counter parts.

Destruent

Melee should all be about the same DPS, doesn't matter if magicka or stamina. Same for ranged which should be a little bit lower imo...like 2 or 3k.
If you want to increase Stam-DPS over magicka DPS bc of survivability, then ZOS should buff survivability of stambuilds...not DPS. If you don't survive, your DPS doesn't matter at all...

Feanor

I don't think risk is really a thing. Certainly not in PvP where range has no distinct advantage because of gap closer galore (apart from NB cloak maybe). In PvE the "risk" is not inherent to playing melee but it's bad game design. Some encounters have just so bad telegraphs and tells that it's hard to react to the damage unless you've done the same fight a hundred times. It's why mechanics are easier when you're ranged in PvE - because even the bad telegraphs take longer to connect.

I'd rather have ZOS fix PvE rather than increase melee damage which will cause severe issues in PvP.

Destruent

Feanor wrote: »

I don't think risk is really a thing. Certainly not in PvP where range has no distinct advantage because of gap closer galore (apart from NB cloak maybe). In PvE the "risk" is not inherent to playing melee but it's bad game design. Some encounters have just so bad telegraphs and tells that it's hard to react to the damage unless you've done the same fight a hundred times. It's why mechanics are easier when you're ranged in PvE - because even the bad telegraphs take longer to connect.

I'd rather have ZOS fix PvE rather than increase melee damage which will cause severe issues in PvP.

You can adjust PvE-DPS by adjusting DoTs which won't have that much of an impact in PvP.

Feanor

@Destruent

They'd have to significantly reduce the cost of purges then or it's all Templars in Cyro.

Destruent

Feanor wrote: »

@Destruent

They'd have to significantly reduce the cost of purges then or it's all Templars in Cyro.

I don't think they'll have to change the values by that much...just some minor adjustements. Increasing the length of the DoT from acid spray to something like 8...10 Seconds would be an example to increase stam-cleave-DPS and could help.
Most DoTs you don't even notice that much (atleast that was my experience when i pvped last time).

wimhwimladimf

I can agree with OP only after they remove all kind of gap closers and pulls. You aint "melee dps" when you jump in your enemy face in seconds and make kitting non-existent.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

Granted I don't even think I've done every dungeon yet, and only one vet dungeon, but from what I've seen of endgame bosses, they're very melee prohibitive. This is disappointing, since MMO developers have been making this simple mistake ever since the early days of WoW.

Simply put, there are far more mechanics, especially bad aoe, happening to players in melee range of the boss than those at range. Melee players have more to move out of the way of, and less time to react. Rift had this problem as well, but they at least buffed all the melee souls (trees) to be ~15-20% stronger.

Having melee and ranged do roughly the same dps in a game where playing melee is like pulling your own teeth doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, so I'd be on board with any changes to improve this. I'd love to be able to make my stamdk viable lol

Feanor

Destruent wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Destruent

They'd have to significantly reduce the cost of purges then or it's all Templars in Cyro.

I don't think they'll have to change the values by that much...just some minor adjustements. Increasing the length of the DoT from acid spray to something like 8...10 Seconds would be an example to increase stam-cleave-DPS and could help.
Most DoTs you don't even notice that much (atleast that was my experience when i pvped last time).

Try out noCP PvP. When you don't have all that free mitigation from CP DoTs become very noticeable. Not stage 7 vMA poison plant noticeable but still very annoying without purge or harness.

Destruent

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Granted I don't even think I've done every dungeon yet, and only one vet dungeon, but from what I've seen of endgame bosses, they're very melee prohibitive. This is disappointing, since MMO developers have been making this simple mistake ever since the early days of WoW.

Simply put, there are far more mechanics, especially bad aoe, happening to players in melee range of the boss than those at range. Melee players have more to move out of the way of, and less time to react. Rift had this problem as well, but they at least buffed all the melee souls (trees) to be ~15-20% stronger.

Having melee and ranged do roughly the same dps in a game where playing melee is like pulling your own teeth doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, so I'd be on board with any changes to improve this. I'd love to be able to make my stamdk viable lol

You generalize too much imo. Some Bosses are harder for melee, some are easier. Easiest DPS-position for vMoL/Hm is for example one of the 2 melee-only spots. Playing ranged on this boss is definitely harder. On 2nd boss it doesn't matter that much. On the first boss ranged is easier to play bc of the cleansing pads, but other than this it doesn't matter.
Mantikora, Warrior and Stone-Attronach are kinda "harder" for melee...for the other bosses i didn't notice a real difference tbh.
edit says, lightning attro is also melee-unfriendly

Artis

Bad idea. If someone's DPS is higher - everyone will only take that. Risk vs reward is not an argument for endgame groups, they will simply practice and there will be minimal risk. Also, stamina dps is fine, it's not DPS that's their problem. Melee dps should be equal to ranged DPS with the uptime on the target taken into account.

Destruent

Artis wrote: »

Bad idea. If someone's DPS is higher - everyone will only take that. Risk vs reward is not an argument for endgame groups, they will simply practice and there will be minimal risk. Also, stamina dps is fine, it's not DPS that's their problem. Melee dps should be equal to ranged DPS with the uptime on the target taken into account.

Which target? Ozara? Serpent? StormAttro? Warrior?
If meelee-dps is a little bit higher than ranged DPS you will have the maximum number of melee-DD and fill the rest with ranged-DPS, which is ok imo.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

Destruent wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Granted I don't even think I've done every dungeon yet, and only one vet dungeon, but from what I've seen of endgame bosses, they're very melee prohibitive. This is disappointing, since MMO developers have been making this simple mistake ever since the early days of WoW.

Simply put, there are far more mechanics, especially bad aoe, happening to players in melee range of the boss than those at range. Melee players have more to move out of the way of, and less time to react. Rift had this problem as well, but they at least buffed all the melee souls (trees) to be ~15-20% stronger.

Having melee and ranged do roughly the same dps in a game where playing melee is like pulling your own teeth doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, so I'd be on board with any changes to improve this. I'd love to be able to make my stamdk viable lol

You generalize too much imo. Some Bosses are harder for melee, some are easier. Easiest DPS-position for vMoL/Hm is for example one of the 2 melee-only spots. Playing ranged on this boss is definitely harder. On 2nd boss it doesn't matter that much. On the first boss ranged is easier to play bc of the cleansing pads, but other than this it doesn't matter.
Mantikora, Warrior and Stone-Attronach are kinda "harder" for melee...for the other bosses i didn't notice a real difference tbh.
edit says, lightning attro is also melee-unfriendly

Maybe trials are different, but from what I've seen of dungeons anyway, there aren't really any fights where it's better or easier to play melee. It's often much harder. If they are designed better, then that's fine and my complaint isn't as valid but I think still merits discussion.

And I can speak a bit about everyone jumping on board with the melee meta if it does get buffed. Yes, all the top tier players will play melee for pretty much everything, but that's just how it is. They are skilled enough (presumably) to pull off their frame-perfect rotations even while avoiding all the aoe, and by taking those risks they are able to do higher dps. This isn't a bad thing, but again, I'm only speaking from dungeon experience for this game.

LonePirate

Feanor wrote: »

I'd rather have ZOS fix PvE rather than increase melee damage which will cause severe issues in PvP.

I couldn't disagree more with this. There is absolutely no reason why a mobile and ranged class like Sorcs should have better class DPS and shields than a stationary and melee class like DKs. The current ESO combat system is a complete joke.

HeroOfNone

Feanor wrote: »

I don't think risk is really a thing. Certainly not in PvP where range has no distinct advantage because of gap closer galore (apart from NB cloak maybe). In PvE the "risk" is not inherent to playing melee but it's bad game design. Some encounters have just so bad telegraphs and tells that it's hard to react to the damage unless you've done the same fight a hundred times. It's why mechanics are easier when you're ranged in PvE - because even the bad telegraphs take longer to connect.

I'd rather have ZOS fix PvE rather than increase melee damage which will cause severe issues in PvP.

Telegraphs are part of the issue, but even then when DPS needs to move in and out (melee avoiding an AOE), verses staying relatively still (ranged DPS) that melee dps is going to lose DPS.

But risk is a big factor, keep in mind most magicka builds have shields, heal abilities, stamina to block/roll dodge, and time to rescue them. It's stacked in favor of magicka ranged at the moment.

Destruent wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Granted I don't even think I've done every dungeon yet, and only one vet dungeon, but from what I've seen of endgame bosses, they're very melee prohibitive. This is disappointing, since MMO developers have been making this simple mistake ever since the early days of WoW.

Simply put, there are far more mechanics, especially bad aoe, happening to players in melee range of the boss than those at range. Melee players have more to move out of the way of, and less time to react. Rift had this problem as well, but they at least buffed all the melee souls (trees) to be ~15-20% stronger.

Having melee and ranged do roughly the same dps in a game where playing melee is like pulling your own teeth doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, so I'd be on board with any changes to improve this. I'd love to be able to make my stamdk viable lol

You generalize too much imo. Some Bosses are harder for melee, some are easier. Easiest DPS-position for vMoL/Hm is for example one of the 2 melee-only spots. Playing ranged on this boss is definitely harder. On 2nd boss it doesn't matter that much. On the first boss ranged is easier to play bc of the cleansing pads, but other than this it doesn't matter.
Mantikora, Warrior and Stone-Attronach are kinda "harder" for melee...for the other bosses i didn't notice a real difference tbh.
edit says, lightning attro is also melee-unfriendly

Well let's break down a few bosses and adds

Vet AA
Over chargers - favors ranged, since stacking melee will kill a group quick
Storm attro - favors ranged, since you get a short melee window and you don't want to get hit with multiple storm
Stone attro - after 80% summons rocks that hit you and anyone around you, forcing you to spread out, another ranged favored fight
Wisp mother - good melee range on her, but the moon drop aoe and the split favor ranged for mobility and hitting targets.
The Mage - the entire thing is highly in favor of ranged. You have the chain lightening that will kill people too close together, the black hole subtance, and the axes you want to stay away from. The attros and mini mages also need quick kill time.

Vet Hel Rah
Air Attro- the gusts of wind, the sword throws, and the spinning when they hit 20%, definitely range preferred
Gargoyles - that nasty ground pound kills even tanks that stay in it, melee has little time to get away.
Welmas- strong back kick can one shot any DPS, keeping players back.
Top boss - massive AOE makes it recommended you block cast to reduce damage, also big meteors. Again, ranged saves the day.
The warrior - a dps area you can sit in and do more damage, a nasty cleave that will probably one shot you, and a variety of AOE abilities that will target at least one player. Oh, and those gargoyles are back in hard mode, so groups will probably need to stack far behind the tank to make sure he shield throws to kill em. Again, ranged favored

Vet SO
Over chargers - they're back! And there are more of them, so avoid stacking because you also have to deal with....
Trolls! - anyone in melee range gets a nasty poison as well, encouraging you to spread out.
Mantikora - it's better to spread out so only one person gets sucked down at a time instead of a random group. Also nasty front cleave, best to kerp your distance
Troll king - the pound is nasty, but the over chargers spawning makes it worse, ahain, spreading out a bit helps
Serpent - probably the only close range friendly fight in the dungeon, so melee or range, it doesn't matter, though ranged won't be doing any less damage then normal.

Vet MoL
First boss - what's his name? I've forgotten, but he does have a nasty curse that makes you need to spread out, also the hiding and clensing also favor ranged.
Sun eaters - ranged caster that likes to stand in their own negsting AOE.
2nd boss - Mr half and half, the ranged dps let's them damage ranged DPS and adds without risking aggro or having either rank waste time trying to pull.
Final boss - if the pads all fill up you may need to to up in the middle and fight adds out on the outside, again favoring range.


Over all, most end game content favors ranged DPS for safety reasons. But that safety doesn't hurt their DPS, or flipping it around, it doesn't reward those taking a risk.

HeroOfNone

Also, to be clear, I'm talking PVE DPS. Which is generally your low and slow DOT builds, most burst damage used in PVP wouldn't be affected. The guidelines above also don't need to be a "buff" to melee dps, but it could be s nerf to ranged DPS. With either change though, DPS requirements for hard mode trisls and dungeons should continue to pivot around the magicka sorc ranged DPS build as a baseline. It may take more than one skill or boss to be adjusted.

Destruent

I'm playing mostly meelee DPS and only on mantikora, warrior, lightning/stone-attro and maybe first boss vmol i feel really penalized for doing so. On all other bosses proper tactis/positioning solve most of your problems or will make melee-live more enjoyable than ranged.
Sidenote: vHRC boss on the reight side: You have to be in meele-range for interrupts, you'll also get less meteors in melee-range...

old_mufasa

Hmm.. most range wear light armor.. most melee wear med and heavy.. you have more protection.. most boss fights have ranged one shot mechanics...

In pvp.. melee have extremely fast and spam able gap closer, most are stamina based so that can run ranged down, dodge more, bock more... and you can have a bow to do range and melee dps.

It easy to over exaggerate issues.. I mean we should buff range if the above is true.. as stamina melee have more defense, more maneuverability, and sustain movement....

Destruent

old_mufasa wrote: »

Hmm.. most range wear light armor.. most melee wear med and heavy.. you have more protection.. most boss fights have ranged one shot mechanics...

In pvp.. melee have extremely fast and spam able gap closer, most are stamina based so that can run ranged down, dodge more, bock more... and you can have a bow to do range and melee dps.

It easy to over exaggerate issues.. I mean we should buff range if the above is true.. as stamina melee have more defense, more maneuverability, and sustain movement....

Most stupid thing i've ever heard.

atm: ranged wears light, melee wears light. there are no ranged-one-shotmechanics which are unavoidable...

Ghost-Shot

There isn't much more risk to melee in this games instances though.

Potenza

Sure but get rid of the gap closers - then it'll be fair.

LonePirate

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

There isn't much more risk to melee in this games instances though.

Yes there is. In Cyrodiil if I see another player in the distance, that distance will need to be reduced significantly before I am in any danger if that player is a DK or Templar as most DKs in the vet campaigns do not use chains and Magicka players of both classes have few ranged skills. If that player in the distance is a Sorc, the danger is imminent. Not only that but Stamina melee weapon skills hit harder than ranged weapon skills for the most part.

Perhaps your comment was directed at the PVE aspects, though.

Avran_Sylt

Then PvE End Game guys will just figure out ways to stack through most damage. Though given enough forethough into dungeon layout and Boss AoE attacks, you could probably make it such that half and half (melee/ranged) is the preferred method.

Melee:
DW Focus on ST Damage
- Faster
2H Focus on AoE Damage
- Slower
1H&S Focus CC
================
- Swords are General
- Axes are DoT
- Maces are better against heavy armor
- Daggers are faster

Magic:
Fire Focus on ST Damage
- Faster
Lightning Focus on AoE Damage
- Slower
Frost Focus CC
=================
Focus is Freely interchangeable on Staves at Enchanting Tables.
- No Focus is General
- Expansive Focus increases AoE
- Piercing Focus ignores some Resistances
- Channeled Focus Increases duration.

Ranged:
Longbow Focus ST Damage
- Slower
Shortbow Focus AoE Damage
- Faster
==================
- Broadhead is General
- Crescent is DoT
- Bodkin is better against heavy armor
- Blunt Tips focus CC
-

Bladerunner1

I can see where melee stamina DPS is badly lagging behind ranged magicka in PVE, but it seems like nerfs tend to be happening more than buffs lately. If ZOS chooses to buff stamina builds, I hope stamina DOTs aren't all that get buffed, it'll place stamblades further from the pack than ever.

Now that heavy attacks deal less damage and damage from crouch is reduced in PVP, an overall buff to other types of Stamina damage couldn't hurt. Bow damage needs a lift along with the rest. They were nerfed long ago because of the risk/rewards theme, but it seems like their bit of extra armor doesn't come anywhere close to matching the effectiveness of shields.

Bazfaps

I would just be happy to get blade cloak or other similar melee aoe reduction shields to provide the same benefit that casters get with those overshields

The new change may just be enough