Incoming Scamp Nerf

SirDopey

I'm a little concerned that Zeni has decided the best option is to put this nerf through untested. This leads me to believe its either a) so minute it'll hardly affect it or b) its a massive nerf and they don't want to deal with the backlash and 500 threads it will create on the forums (I'm leaning towards B. ).

I agree with most people in saying that sorc's are OP at the moment but I'm not sure if targeting the scamp is the right answer. The more you think of it, the scamp should be one of the hardest hitting skills (if not the hardest hitting) in the game due to it's need to be on both bars and for decent DPS requires constant healing/warding.

If it's because the dev's simply haven't had time to make the changes and this is a real last minute knee jerk reaction then just wait, just wait until the next cycle. Putting a major change through untested is only going to blow up in your faces otherwise, won't be good for the community and certainly won't be good for the game.

MotokoKusanagi34

Are you Wroebels secret second account? Worried you're accidentally nerfing your favorite class?

Jokes aside, 25% pet damage reduction translates to roughly ~ 2000 DPS less. That's nothing and we haven't really figured out the next meta yet. The problem is sorcs are OP and pets are OP and it shows. I personally just don't think pets should be your main source of damage in a class which is already heavily dominating the PVE scene either way. Quite frankly I welcome any sorc nerf or buff of other classes so we can enjoy a somewhat balanced player environment. No need for another century of sorc dominance and build homogenization.

Witar

Would rather see 25% reduction on daedric prey. Scamp is a cute devil to have.

SirDopey

I use to think like you until guild mates "opened my eyes". I main a Templar but have a magic sorc I jump onto occasionally.

All bias aside, the combined DPS from Prey and the Scamp should be slightly under 3x the DPS of wall of elements. This takes into account the fact it requires 3 skill slots to use the combo (5 if you run overload). People keep comparing the DPS of the scamp to other skills in the game (which I was guilty of until getting schooled in guild chat) but it's not.

It's not my main so my figures probably arn't the most accurate but in all my testing liquid lighting was higher than the combined output of scamp + prey and blockade was a little bit below the combined output.

Sure, nerf the scamp but give it a cooldown before the pet becomes unsummoned so that it's not necessary to have it on both bars. There's no other damage ability in the game that requires 3 skill slots, so it makes sense that it's one of the hardest hitting.

And it's not like the scamp is summon and forget like it use to be. To get those high damage parses you need to make sure you have the pulse up 100% and Prey up 100% - so rotation is still important, plus you have to make sure the little buggar doesn't die or you're parse is wrecked.

If anything, I'd be more open to seeing the HP lowered before touching the damage

MotokoKusanagi34

SirDopey wrote: »

I use to think like you until guild mates "opened my eyes". I main a Templar but have a magic sorc I jump onto occasionally.

All bias aside, the combined DPS from Prey and the Scamp should be slightly under 3x the DPS of wall of elements. This takes into account the fact it requires 3 skill slots to use the combo (5 if you run overload). People keep comparing the DPS of the scamp to other skills in the game (which I was guilty of until getting schooled in guild chat) but it's not.

It's not my main so my figures probably arn't the most accurate but in all my testing liquid lighting was higher than the combined output of scamp + prey and blockade was a little bit below the combined output.

Sure, nerf the scamp but give it a cooldown before the pet becomes unsummoned so that it's not necessary to have it on both bars. There's no other damage ability in the game that requires 3 skill slots, so it makes sense that it's one of the hardest hitting.

And it's not like the scamp is summon and forget like it use to be. To get those high damage parses you need to make sure you have the pulse up 100% and Prey up 100% - so rotation is still important, plus you have to make sure the little buggar doesn't die or you're parse is wrecked.

If anything, I'd be more open to seeing the HP lowered before touching the damage

Well any class needs dedication, no one is saying it's simple but it doesn't have anything to do with sorc DPS. I can for instance perfect my NB currently as much as I want and yet I will always, no matter what do 10k less damage. I don't understand what kind of point you want to make when you say scamp takes your slots away. So what? It deals a *** ton of damage and even after a huge nerf it will continue to do so. You probably want to say that the hassle of playing a pet build justifies the high damage, which is just garbage.
There are more than enough classes which are harder to play or require special skills slotted at all time... like - why am I even writing this? It doesn't make sense from a balance perspective, it's unfair compared to all other classes, it literally destroys build diversity etc etc. When you're not looking at the greater picture and overall health of the game then you're biased, it's simple as that. Why does it matter to you if the damage gets nerfed and it's still the highest DPS class?

Waffennacht

MotokoKusanagi34 wrote: »

SirDopey wrote: »

I use to think like you until guild mates "opened my eyes". I main a Templar but have a magic sorc I jump onto occasionally.

All bias aside, the combined DPS from Prey and the Scamp should be slightly under 3x the DPS of wall of elements. This takes into account the fact it requires 3 skill slots to use the combo (5 if you run overload). People keep comparing the DPS of the scamp to other skills in the game (which I was guilty of until getting schooled in guild chat) but it's not.

It's not my main so my figures probably arn't the most accurate but in all my testing liquid lighting was higher than the combined output of scamp + prey and blockade was a little bit below the combined output.

Sure, nerf the scamp but give it a cooldown before the pet becomes unsummoned so that it's not necessary to have it on both bars. There's no other damage ability in the game that requires 3 skill slots, so it makes sense that it's one of the hardest hitting.

And it's not like the scamp is summon and forget like it use to be. To get those high damage parses you need to make sure you have the pulse up 100% and Prey up 100% - so rotation is still important, plus you have to make sure the little buggar doesn't die or you're parse is wrecked.

If anything, I'd be more open to seeing the HP lowered before touching the damage

Well any class needs dedication, no one is saying it's simple but it doesn't have anything to do with sorc DPS. I can for instance perfect my NB currently as much as I want and yet I will always, no matter what do 10k less damage. I don't understand what kind of point you want to make when you say scamp takes your slots away. So what? It deals a *** ton of damage and even after a huge nerf it will continue to do so. You probably want to say that the hassle of playing a pet build justifies the high damage, which is just garbage.
There are more than enough classes which are harder to play or require special skills slotted at all time... like - why am I even writing this? It doesn't make sense from a balance perspective, it's unfair compared to all other classes, it literally destroys build diversity etc etc. When you're not looking at the greater picture and overall health of the game then you're biased, it's simple as that. Why does it matter to you if the damage gets nerfed and it's still the highest DPS class?

Because for the pet version of the sorcerer class requires 3 slots to use 2 abilities. While a NB can have twisting path, blockade and swallow going in the exact same slots only familiar and prey are in.

You're right, perfect rotation is key, and if your rotation is perfect you'll always have more abilities firing at once than a sorc pet build, simply because you have access to them.

They are simply stating that scamp + prey should equal to at least *2 liquid lightnings, because it takes more slots and more buttons.

Maybe Sorcerers have higher parses because several different factors all lead into a slight advantage. It's insane to point to familiar alone in saying he is the only reason Sorcerers are doing well.

Vaoh

Volatile Familiar deals an enormous amount of damage, especially when effortlessly paired with Daedric Prey. Are you aware what kind of numbers that thing is putting out in PvE? It needs certainly needs a nerf.

My hope is that ZOS can balance the Magicka Warden (bringing it up) as well as Magicka Sorcerer (bringing it down) in Morrowind since the rest of the 8 other class specs have generally become much more balanced amongst each other.

As far as I am aware, these two are the outliers. I very much disagree with ZOS's decision to push big changes to these two classes directly onto Live rather than giving it time on PTS to undergo testing. Things could go well, sure. But the more common and believable case is that ZOS will not do a perfect job when this very issue could've been avoided so easily. Console players will also be stuck with whatever has been given to us for awhile, regardless of the changes to Mag Sorc/Mag Warden being good or not.

Morgul667

Im happy pet are nerfed as it they are way too strong at the moment and giving sorc a bad image.

This nerf hits the pets while letting sorcerer enjoy other playstyle, this is nice :-)

Dont know between A and B though

dpencil1

Balancing the pros and cons of various skills against each other is a tricky thing. Let's take the other big dot that the mSorc has, Liquid Lightning, as our point of comparison.

Liquid Lightning pros:
High AOE damage
Long duration
1 skill slot needed

Liquid Lightning cons:
Ground-based (so easily avoidable)
Small AOE radius

So the high damage of this skill is balanced against the small size and immobility of its effect.

Volatile Familiar pros:
High AOE damage when Pulse is used
Large AOE radius
Mobile pet follows enemies
Small additional single-target damage
Can aggro mobs not currently focused on the caster
Can obstruct caster when being targeted by enemy players
Must be killed to unsummon, has substantial health and resistance, and can easily be shielded by caster
Can be buffed by 55% by Daedric Prey
AOE stun on 5th pulse

Volatile Familiar cons:
Takes 2 bar slots
AI is stupid, so it will stand in red, walk into traps, die to boss mechanics
It can be CC'd and dies quickly to players who focus it down
It has a long summon time
It must be managed or else it can run off to enemies you do not intend to engage

So we can see that the list for Liquid Lightning is fairly straight forward, get high damage at the cost of immobility and small radius. With Familiar it's much more complex. Should the Familiar only do as much damage as another skill that only takes one slot, considering the other factors, or not? That's really the heart of the question.

SirDopey

MotokoKusanagi34 wrote: »

SirDopey wrote: »

I use to think like you until guild mates "opened my eyes". I main a Templar but have a magic sorc I jump onto occasionally.

All bias aside, the combined DPS from Prey and the Scamp should be slightly under 3x the DPS of wall of elements. This takes into account the fact it requires 3 skill slots to use the combo (5 if you run overload). People keep comparing the DPS of the scamp to other skills in the game (which I was guilty of until getting schooled in guild chat) but it's not.

It's not my main so my figures probably arn't the most accurate but in all my testing liquid lighting was higher than the combined output of scamp + prey and blockade was a little bit below the combined output.

Sure, nerf the scamp but give it a cooldown before the pet becomes unsummoned so that it's not necessary to have it on both bars. There's no other damage ability in the game that requires 3 skill slots, so it makes sense that it's one of the hardest hitting.

And it's not like the scamp is summon and forget like it use to be. To get those high damage parses you need to make sure you have the pulse up 100% and Prey up 100% - so rotation is still important, plus you have to make sure the little buggar doesn't die or you're parse is wrecked.

If anything, I'd be more open to seeing the HP lowered before touching the damage

Well any class needs dedication, no one is saying it's simple but it doesn't have anything to do with sorc DPS. I can for instance perfect my NB currently as much as I want and yet I will always, no matter what do 10k less damage. I don't understand what kind of point you want to make when you say scamp takes your slots away. So what? It deals a *** ton of damage and even after a huge nerf it will continue to do so. You probably want to say that the hassle of playing a pet build justifies the high damage, which is just garbage.
There are more than enough classes which are harder to play or require special skills slotted at all time... like - why am I even writing this? It doesn't make sense from a balance perspective, it's unfair compared to all other classes, it literally destroys build diversity etc etc. When you're not looking at the greater picture and overall health of the game then you're biased, it's simple as that. Why does it matter to you if the damage gets nerfed and it's still the highest DPS class?

Dude chill. I'm talking about one skill not the entire class. The most OP sorcs I see in trials don't use pets, you're taking an easy swipe at the scamp cause the entire class is unbalance. Like I said, no other damage ability in the game requires 2 skill slots to be used.

Vaoh wrote: »

Volatile Familiar deals an enormous amount of damage, especially when effortlessly paired with Daedric Prey. Are you aware what kind of numbers that thing is putting out in PvE? It needs certainly needs a nerf.

My hope is that ZOS can balance the Magicka Warden (bringing it up) as well as Magicka Sorcerer (bringing it down) in Morrowind since the rest of the 8 other class specs have generally become much more balanced amongst each other.

As far as I am aware, these two are the outliers. I very much disagree with ZOS's decision to push big changes to these two classes directly onto Live rather than giving it time on PTS to undergo testing. Things could go well, sure. But the more common and believable case is that ZOS will not do a perfect job when this very issue could've been avoided so easily. Console players will also be stuck with whatever has been given to us for awhile, regardless of the changes to Mag Sorc/Mag Warden being good or not.

Yes I'm aware, I've seen the parses. I've also noticed that in those parses the player's liquid ligthning and blockade are doing very high DPS and it's not the pets alone giving those juicy numbers.

This tells me that its the class passives and gear that need to be looked at more than the scamp

100% Agree with you on the changes going straight to live though, which was the main concern of this thread. Given ZOS's strike rate at balance to even think that they could get it close to being right on the first attempt is just cray cray

Iyas

Option b ist my guess

Hempyre

Pet pve builds do about as much damage as any other pve build. Nothing special, and they suck for pvp.

They get no room for any real skills due to the toggles. Pets are notoriously buggy... They have *** controls, basically attack and passive. They don't travel vertically properly, eg: the web drop in selenes. So quite often you lose that dps, or have to recast in the middle of a fight while staying alive...

Ya the one pet does decent damage but all the time buffing it and rotations... The lose of dps with none of the other sorc skills...

There are better dps builds for non pet sorcs.

This is a non-issue.

Dagoth_Rac

The issue with pet builds are that they require too much micromanagement and hassle to do similar DPS to non-pet builds. If they "balance" pet builds, they will go back to being useless and never used. People were willing to put in the extra work of managing the pet when it was a major DPS advantage. If pet builds become no better or worse than non-pet builds, why bother? Who wants to put up with the general pain in the neck of a pet build if there are other, easier to manage, options that offer similar DPS?

Lum1on

I don't play as a magicka Sorcerer that much, but when I do, of course I use pets because they are so ridiculously strong in PvE. Why? It's basically not because of Necropotence (no matter it gives you a huge amount of max. magicka). It's because pets scale from max. magicka only, not spell damage. If you look at the DPSpC (damage-per-second per cost) of the most essential class skills with 40,000 max. magicka it seems fine, but if you jump to 50,000 max. magicka you can see that pet is overpowered. And that's (damage scaling) the problem as far as I can tell.

SirDopey wrote: »

1. Sure, nerf the scamp but give it a cooldown before the pet becomes unsummoned so that it's not necessary to have it on both bars. There's no other damage ability in the game that requires 3 skill slots, so it makes sense that it's one of the hardest hitting.

2. And it's not like the scamp is summon and forget like it use to be. To get those high damage parses you need to make sure you have the pulse up 100% and Prey up 100% - so rotation is still important, plus you have to make sure the little buggar doesn't die or you're parse is wrecked.

1. No matter how many slots it takes but if the damage is too high it's broken and should be fixed. And actually it doesn't matter it requries 3 skill slots because;

• Without a pet you'd still be running Haunting curse (so basically it takes 2 skill slots, and without pet you'd have something, so technically speaking it takes 1 slot away from you)
• Yes, the combo requires 3 skill slots but if the damage from 3 skill slots (2 different skills) is a lot (and I mean A LOT) higher than any other combination you've access to with 3 different skills - it's broken.

2. I know players who sometimes "forget" to control their pet in vMoL's first boss when you need to get behind the pillars and their pet die. They simply resummon it and continue, still they have approximately 4-7k more DPS than everyone else. And I don't really understand your reasoning about having Familiar pulse and Daedric prey 100,0% uptime - you need to have those numbers basically on all the important skills, DoT's on every class to get good numbers?

Hempyre wrote: »

Pet pve builds do about as much damage as any other pve build. Nothing special, and they suck for pvp.

They get no room for any real skills due to the toggles. Pets are notoriously buggy... They have *** controls, basically attack and passive. They don't travel vertically properly, eg: the web drop in selenes. So quite often you lose that dps, or have to recast in the middle of a fight while staying alive...

Ya the one pet does decent damage but all the time buffing it and rotations... The lose of dps with none of the other sorc skills...

There are better dps builds for non pet sorcs.

This is a non-issue.

And we have a player who obviously mains magicka Sorcerer in PvE and don't want this precious class/build/playstyle to be nerfed. Or my previous sentence was completely sarcastic meaning that he/she has no idea about it because of whatever reason.

Magicka Sorcerers running pet build deal the most DPS in the game today - by a lot! There are no other builds you can achieve so high numbers, and it is an issue because of the scaling. It's a fact stated by ZOS itself.

So... Sorry, but you're wrong this time.

EDIT: Oops, accidentally double quoted.

Erasure

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

The issue with pet builds are that they require too much micromanagement and hassle to do similar DPS to non-pet builds. If they "balance" pet builds, they will go back to being useless and never used. People were willing to put in the extra work of managing the pet when it was a major DPS advantage. If pet builds become no better or worse than non-pet builds, why bother? Who wants to put up with the general pain in the neck of a pet build if there are other, easier to manage, options that offer similar DPS?

Me

I don't think they'll do anything too harsh. Systemic changes would hit Wardens as well, and ZoS can't have that. Either Prey will lose % increase or the scamp's aoe range and tooltip will be reduced, or perhaps both. Hopefully not both.

Hempyre

@Lum1on

Actually I do have one, along with a magplar, and a DK, and it's not my main and they don't do the most pve dps in game, not by a margin. Go look at a few youtube vids buddy.

Non pet sorcs pull way better dps. What they're good for is solo content, which is what I use it for.

Clearly if there's someone here that doesn't know what they're talking about, it's you my friend...

BohnT

Hempyre wrote: »

@Lum1on

Actually I do have one, along with a magplar, and a DK, and it's not my main and they don't do the most pve dps in game, not by a margin. Go look at a few youtube vids buddy.

Non pet sorcs pull way better dps. What they're good for is solo content, which is what I use it for.

Clearly if there's someone here that doesn't know what they're talking about, it's you my friend...

I guess you send that post with Internet Explorer. This isn't early 2016 pet sorcs are ahead of anything. There is nothing that can keep up with the
-survivability
-single target
-aoe damage
Of a pet sorc.
The additional work you have to put in is laughably small in comparison to a magblade that has absolutely no chance to be even close to a pet sorc

SirDopey

@Lum1on. - if I get a chance I'll jump on tonight and do some parses on a skele to show my previous points - it seems its a little too difficult for your brain to wrap around. My point about the 100% up time is that it's not like you can pull high DPS numbers if you're only getting 70, 60 or 50% up times - given that both have relatively short up times you need to focus on your rotation to get those DPS numbers. It's not just click and forget. Understand this time?

To say that it doesn't require an additional skill because you'd run it anyway is just flawed rational - really its just silly talk. Arguments like that allow the pro pet players to say that the scamp alone should do twice the DPS as average skills because they shouldn't have to run prey for the extra damage but are forced to run the scamp on both bars.

Scamp + prey should = close to or a little less than Skill A + Skill b + Skill C of the other classes. You seem to believe that the 2 already out perform 3 skills from other classes but I don't.

The fact that being are running around with 50K max magicka (which I believe has been nerfed on pts?) creates more problems than simply the "scamp". The reason those people are pulling 7k more DPS than you is because all their skills are hitting for slightly more, not just the scamp.

What little has been said on this thread only reinforces it's main point, major nerfs need to be tested on the PTS instead of going straight to live as the chances are ZOS will get it wrong the first time.

Izaki

MotokoKusanagi34 wrote: »

Are you Wroebels secret second account? Worried you're accidentally nerfing your favorite class?

Jokes aside, 25% pet damage reduction translates to roughly ~ 2000 DPS less. That's nothing and we haven't really figured out the next meta yet. The problem is sorcs are OP and pets are OP and it shows. I personally just don't think pets should be your main source of damage in a class which is already heavily dominating the PVE scene either way. Quite frankly I welcome any sorc nerf or buff of other classes so we can enjoy a somewhat balanced player environment. No need for another century of sorc dominance and build homogenization.

Wait what? Non-pet Sorc is overperforming? Nice joke.

Transairion

Why? It's basically not because of Necropotence (no matter it gives you a huge amount of max. magicka). It's because pets scale from max. magicka only, not spell damage. If you look at the DPSpC (damage-per-second per cost) of the most essential class skills with 40,000 max. magicka it seems fine, but if you jump to 50,000 max. magicka you can see that pet is overpowered. And that's (damage scaling) the problem as far as I can tell.

Oh right so it's because of the scaling that's been in the game since it launched that made pets OP.... wait what everyone called them trash-tier?

So it was Necropotence... wait wasn't that nerfed from 12% max magicka to 10% max magicka to 4000 magicka flat?

So it's the ability to crit that made them OP... wait that was added in 1.6 and didn't change anything?


Volatile Familiar became a Meta skill after it was bugfixed, previous it's Pulses weren't boosted +55% by Daedric Prey at all. Before that bugfix, pets were still considered "worthless skills" because of all the downsides. For once the DPS provided actually outweighed the negatives of using them, so they became meta. But how can something that was "worthless" before the bugfix possibly have been OP as well? It was the bugfix, and only the bugfix that caused this. Not any nonsense about scaling or Daedric Prey.

Pure and simple that is what happened, don't try and swing it any other way. I'm getting pretty riled up about all these sudden "pet sorc experts" claiming this and that... I bet most of you didn't even know what any of the Daedric Summoning skills outside Ward even did until a few months ago and Familiar became meta.

Feanor

It's funny. First people QQ that pets are too weak. Which they were for the entirety of the game. Then after 3 consecutive buffs people complain that pets are too strong. When it's actually not pets being that strong but the other classes meanwhile having received significant nerfs. But sure, nerf pets again. Then it's just back to where we were for most of the game where pet builds were niche for either soloing content or 1v1 PvP. Why would you put up with all the nonsense (pets getting constantly stuck in game world objects, don't attack or withdraw properly, have no UI whatsoever) if it's not worth it.

What I find hilarious is that everyone is on the Sorc nerf train now. There's always some kid in town that gets all the hate, this time it's Sorcs. I'll be here to remind you when [insert your favorite class] gets touched next time by the devs again, which is a sure thing to come. To ZOS balancing always means nerfing.

Hempyre

@BohnT

Actually, properly geared they're about the same. Pet sorc maybe a bit better if they're only running the scamp and frags or whatev. Someone has to be on top.

Seriously, go look at a few of Asayre's vids, or Gilliam's, dps is pretty well clear with a bis build setup.

Otherwise there's only an HA/pet build. Go look at theorycrafting on foundry. There are better dps builds by a huge margin. A pet does enough, but it's not the king by a long shot.

And seriously, three slots main bar / two the other to maintain pets + petbuff, then a shield... Not a lot of room left over. No blink, no bound arms, no mines, no extras at all...

Gotta ask why the hate for pve? Really, who gives a ***... Not like they're on you in pvp and super op...

Lum1on

Hempyre wrote: »

Non pet sorcs pull way better dps. What they're good for is solo content, which is what I use it for.

Clearly if there's someone here that doesn't know what they're talking about, it's you my friend...

I'm not saying that pet Sorcerers deal more DPS than others because I get so high numbers. I'm saying that because that's what I've seen from my guild mates' parses and top PvE guild members. If you can prove me wrong, go ahead. But just remember that if you're not able to deal more damage with non-pet build vs. someone with pet build your argument is wrong.

But if you can prove me wrong, I'm more than happy to say I was misinformed - and I'll admit it.

SirDopey wrote: »

1. My point about the 100% up time is that it's not like you can pull high DPS numbers if you're only getting 70, 60 or 50% up times - given that both have relatively short up times you need to focus on your rotation to get those DPS numbers. It's not just click and forget. Understand this time?

2. To say that it doesn't require an additional skill because you'd run it anyway is just flawed rational - really its just silly talk. Arguments like that allow the pro pet players to say that the scamp alone should do twice the DPS as average skills because they shouldn't have to run prey for the extra damage but are forced to run the scamp on both bars.

3. Scamp + prey should = close to or a little less than Skill A + Skill b + Skill C of the other classes. You seem to believe that the 2 already out perform 3 skills from other classes but I don't.

4. The fact that being are running around with 50K max magicka (which I believe has been nerfed on pts?) creates more problems than simply the "scamp". The reason those people are pulling 7k more DPS than you is because all their skills are hitting for slightly more, not just the scamp.

5. What little has been said on this thread only reinforces it's main point, major nerfs need to be tested on the PTS instead of going straight to live as the chances are ZOS will get it wrong the first time.

1. I still don't understand why this is any different from any other rotation because it all takes practice and focus. Sorry, I don't mean to be rude or anything, but I just can't understand your point of view.

2. / 3. That's now how I meant it and I'm sorry if my wording was misleading. Of course something deals always more damage than something else, or less, but the difference is too big and it creates problems.

4. If you're talking about capping the magicka gain from CP's it's not nerfed. The cap on Live (with 600 CP) is 19,88% and on PTS it's capped at 20,0% (at 300 CP) but because of how the scaling was reworked it's not a nerf and (basically) not a buff because of a 0,12% difference.

And about the skills hitting harder? Sure, of course all the skills are hitting harder when you're gaining more resources. But that extra (almost) 10k you get from necropotence benefits pets way more than other skills. The reason for that is simply because other skills scale from max. magicka and spell damage while pets scale from max. magicka only. And the difference is huge, go and test it and you'll see.

5. I haven't said it's a good thing that they are pushing the Sorcerer's pet damage nerf to Update 14 only - and, believe it or not, I agree that it should be introduced on PTS to see it's not nerfed too much. I like playing with pets but nerfing them too hard makes them useless and it's not right. But also, keeping them as they are, is wrong as well because of the scaling.

Transairion wrote: »

Oh right so it's because of the scaling that's been in the game since it launched that made pets OP.... wait what everyone called them trash-tier?

So it was Necropotence... wait wasn't that nerfed from 12% max magicka to 10% max magicka to 4000 magicka flat?

So it's the ability to crit that made them OP... wait that was added in 1.6 and didn't change anything?

Volatile Familiar became a Meta skill after it was bugfixed, previous it's Pulses weren't boosted +55% by Daedric Prey at all. Before that bugfix, pets were still considered "worthless skills" because of all the downsides. For once the DPS provided actually outweighed the negatives of using them, so they became meta.

Pure and simple that is what happened, don't try and swing it any other way.

Sorry if my wording was somewhat "misleading". But I never said that scaling broke it. I said it's the problem. Like I mentioned, if you look at the Volatile familiar's Familiar pulse damage with, for example, 40k magicka and 3k spell damage it's DPS/DPSpC is nowhere near broken. But the fact that usually skills scale from max. magicka and spell damage keeps them somewhat "balanced". And because pets scale only from max. magicka, this makes it too overpowered. If they only nerf the damage it would make pets too weak with "basic setup" and good (as it should be) with Necropotence.

Feanor

@Lum1on

What's the correct power level then? And how do you determine it? Is it watching parses by top raiders? Or should the power level be determined more towards average players? In the hands of a great player something will always look OP. As I said before, if you look at the 99% of the player base who do not get vMoL HM clears on pad 5 you see that the fabled 50k+ Sorcs are not really as common as we're led to believe.

Transairion

Sorry if my wording was somewhat "misleading". But I never said that scaling broke it. I said it's the problem. Like I mentioned, if you look at the Volatile familiar's Familiar pulse damage with, for example, 40k magicka and 3k spell damage it's DPS/DPSpC is nowhere near broken. But the fact that usually skills scale from max. magicka and spell damage keeps them somewhat "balanced". And because pets scale only from max. magicka, this makes it too overpowered. If they only nerf the damage it would make pets too weak with "basic setup" and good (as it should be) with Necropotence.

How can scaling be the problem if said scaling has existed since launch and Necropotence provided more max magicka back then than it does now?

Dumping every single possible point, armor glyph etc into max magicka to boost Sorc pets has always been an option. It's never been OP, dare I say it's never even be viable because then ONLY your pet damage is being boosted and all your other spells have no spell damage at all. Every other Magicka Sorc meta I've seen has been based around spell damage and crits.

The Pet Sorc Meta is based around Familiar Pulse being spammed with Prey's +55% boost AND having so much crit said Pulse is critting nearly 50% of the time (~49% is what I saw more recently). Familiar Pulse critting isn't new either, it has done so since 1.6 but nobody built for that either. Nobody will build for it after Volatile nerf either, since you could just not slot the pet and go back to crit/spell damage stacking actual spells and get higher output.

I mean, dumb it down even more for me: you think nerfing the only real scaling pets have, period, is the best way to deal with the results of one bugfix? So **** Twilight and Antronach and gut the entire Daedric Summoning line? There's a reason Bound Armor is in the skill-line with it's +% magicka option, since that's the only reason for a Summoning user to actually slot it. Necropotence should be an option for pet users, not the only option "because their DPS will be trash tier otherwise".


I'd rather have pets be unable to crit again, rather than have them gutted so that their "viable state" involves having 50% crit chance and terrible base damage. That just completely changes their scaling.

Chilly-McFreeze

I think the easiest solution would be to go the atronach-way with the familiar. Let the clannfear and the twilight recieve +55% dmg from prey and tone down to the bonus for familiar - at least for the pulse, base dmg doesn't do too much - down to +40% or whatever brings pulse to a reasonable level.
With that the other pets wouldn't be rendered as useless as with changing the scaling for everyone just bc one morph performs too good.

What that reasonable level is, is up for discussion. Not everyone is a 1% elite player, runs with 50k+ max magicka or whatever. And the micromanagement + bar space occupance are issues to count in as well.

While we're add it, I'd like to see the Clannfear get changes too. Either change the physical dmg to something that benefits from magicka sorc's cp distribution or make him scale with max stamina so stam sorcs could use it (even if I doubt they would, yet alone for the lack of shields to keep him alive). But to be honest, I haven't made my homeworks and don't know if and how cp contributes pets.

Rex-Umbra

Pet sorcs can't even control their scamp. It's useless open world just runs all over the place

Lum1on

Feanor wrote: »

@Lum1on

What's the correct power level then? And how do you determine it? Is it watching parses by top raiders? Or should the power level be determined more towards average players? In the hands of a great player something will always look OP. As I said before, if you look at the 99% of the player base who do not get vMoL HM clears on pad 5 you see that the fabled 50k+ Sorcs are not really as common as we're led to believe.

I'm not looking for balance towards the top 1% of community and I can't say on the top of my head what the ratio or scaling should be - but it's common sense that if your pet deals (more than) average damage with 40k magicka and 3k spell damage, just like other skills, it's not a problem. But as soon as you put on Necropotence the Volatile familiar (or to be more precise, the Familiar pulse) deals too much damage. And because it scales purely from max. magicka only (spell damage does not affect it in any way) it should be changed.

I don't have all the time in the world to do the testings and calculations how it should be changed, but I can definitely see it as a problem. And if the damage is "only" reduced but the scaling stays the same it makes the whole skill basically useless because with 40k max. magicka you deal almost zero damage and with 50k it becomes useful. That's why I'd like to see a complete rework for the skill so that it (or all pets, actually) scale from both; max. magicka and spell damage.

Transairion wrote: »

How can scaling be the problem if said scaling has existed since launch and Necropotence provided more max magicka back then than it does now?

Scaling became the problem when all the other things you've already mentioned took in place; it's the sum of it all. Pets don't deal too much damage when you're not running Necropotence. They do better than other skills, but it requires more skill to use and it takes one slot from each bar - and I'm fine with. But as soon as you're able to hit that 50k magicka Volatile familiar starts doing too much damage (critical hits, Daedric prey, ... it doesn't matter, because it wasn't a problem with 40k magicka - without Necropotence).

Lum1on

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

I think the easiest solution would be to go the atronach-way with the familiar. Let the clannfear and the twilight recieve +55% dmg from prey and tone down to the bonus for familiar - at least for the pulse, base dmg doesn't do too much - down to +40% or whatever brings pulse to a reasonable level.
With that the other pets wouldn't be rendered as useless as with changing the scaling for everyone just bc one morph performs too good.

What that reasonable level is, is up for discussion. Not everyone is a 1% elite player, runs with 50k+ max magicka or whatever. And the micromanagement + bar space occupance are issues to count in as well.

While we're add it, I'd like to see the Clannfear get changes too. Either change the physical dmg to something that benefits from magicka sorc's cp distribution or make him scale with max stamina so stam sorcs could use it (even if I doubt they would, yet alone for the lack of shields to keep him alive). But to be honest, I haven't made my homeworks and don't know if and how cp contributes pets.

First problem is that this skill works well with 40k max. magicka - it's not overpowered. With Necropotence (50k max. magicka) it becomes problematic. So I don't think that would work.

You don't nee to be an "elite player" to get that 50k max. magicka. If you use Necropotence and Willpower with Ilambris and random staff you should easily get around 50k with 600 CP and "correct" race.

And about Clannfear; yes, I hate that one pet (one morph of it, actually) is able to do so much more. And I agree that because of stamina pet sets available there should be stamina based morphs (or skills). But I would still like one (morph) to be a heal based.

Transairion

Scaling became the problem when all the other things you've already mentioned took in place; it's the sum of it all. Pets don't deal too much damage when you're not running Necropotence. They do better than other skills, but it requires more skill to use and it takes one slot from each bar - and I'm fine with. But as soon as you're able to hit that 50k magicka Volatile familiar starts doing too much damage (critical hits, Daedric prey, ... it doesn't matter, because it wasn't a problem with 40k magicka - without Necropotence).

But... all of this has existed for years? Things have been shuffled around (+% pet damage used to be on Ward), but we've had years of these mechanics. None of this is new, and given how quickly the meta changes I refuse to believe "it was OP all this time and nobody noticed".


Necropotence used to be stronger, no Pet Meta.

Pets have been able to crit since 1.6, no Pet Meta.

You've been able to stack max magicka and spam pet abilities since they were added. No Pet Meta.

Daedric Prey has been +55% pet damage for years. No Pet Meta.

+55% damage on Volatile Familiar Pulse bugfix, SUDDENLY PET META OUT OF NOWHERE


Sorc pets barely saw the light of day until the bugfix allowed Pulse to get a +55% boost it (erroneously) never got previously. Before this bugfix popular opinion was still that pets as a whole were bad.


How can you blame scaling, the scaling has been in the game since launch. This pet meta only occured AFTER the (relatively) recent bugfix to Scamp not benefitted from Prey. The same setup that is meta now was always possible, but Scamp was bugged thus the DPS from spamming Pulse was far lower. Low enough that nobody even considered it a valid option due to pet downsides, let alone a meta pick.

I really can't comprehend how you're calling scaling the problem: pet scaling is one of the few unique parts about them, and effects all the NON-META pets like Twilight and Antronach.

Literally the only offender at present is Volatile Familiar morph, and specifically it's spammable active ability.

Merlin13KAGL

SirDopey wrote: »

The fact that being are running around with 50K max magicka (which I believe has been nerfed on pts?) creates more problems than simply the "scamp". The reason those people are pulling 7k more DPS than you is because all their skills are hitting for slightly more, not just the scamp.

I'll give you this: it's the overall synergy between Prey, Scamp, and Necropotence that's currently OP, though scamp is likely the highest single DPS contributor in a given parse.

The trick is, how to adjust one without invalidating the others.

Necropotence without a familiar is just another 4 pc set.

Personally, I liked the old version where the scamp stunned when it died. Made it an interesting niche use for PvP. As Dagoth mentioned earlier, there needs to be some benefit, as it takes two slots, or it will cease to be useful.

Any time a single build set up is vastly outperforming the average build set up, in a single class or among classes, they need to look at all aspects and determine the real root cause.

EDIT: Full disclosure - I do play Sorc (and all other classes, as well). I do not run a 'pet build' except in certain solo instances.

Unfortunately, even with all the stats at their disposal, I'm not sure it's something they do.

Ideally, they could have a mechanism internally that could do perfect scenario parses with every gear combo and every skill combo and outright see what best obtainable numbers could be.

1. Take the human factor out of it entirely.
2. Take the RNG factor out of it entirely.
3. Adjust, and expect top end player characters to hit 80%-90% of that mark eventually.

They could eventually expand on this and factor in how obtainable the newly determined BiS gear is and base adjustments on that, as well. They've got all this processing power in the PTS - why not use it?