Regeneration vs. Cost Reduction - the mathematical way with full sustain calculator

Masel

EDITED FOR Update.

Alpheu5

Where's the pictures with pretty colors and charts with arrows?

NightbladeMechanics

Alteration Mastery is 6% cost reduction on everything, and Marksman is 5% stamina ability cost reduction.

Don't forget non-regen resource return sources such as ele drain, shards/orbs, and Siphoning Attacks. In PvP, you'll want a balance of them, regen, and cost reduction.

Full regen builds will become inconsistent due to the creation of the siphoner CP passive, and full cost reduction builds will have trouble recovering resources once they inevitably run out of juice. Those non-regen recovery sources will give you consistent albeit limited resource return as you fight.

Cêltic421

Regen works during combat.

Masel

Cêltic421 wrote: »

Regen works during combat.

I never said otherwise

Masel

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Alteration Mastery is 6% cost reduction on everything, and Marksman is 5% stamina ability cost reduction.

Right those are there too. But doesn't make a lot of a difference in the sheet.

WhiteMage

Werewolf slotted is 15% stamina recovery.

casparian

Ugh...one thing I appreciate about the live server is that both Altmer and Dunmer are great races for endgame DPS. I hope the sustain changes aren't so drastic as to change this. I'd hate to see 10 Altmer in a raid. (And I main an Altmer!)

Masel

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Alteration Mastery is 6% cost reduction on everything, and Marksman is 5% stamina ability cost reduction.

Don't forget non-regen resource return sources such as ele drain, shards/orbs, and Siphoning Attacks. In PvP, you'll want a balance of them, regen, and cost reduction.

Full regen builds will become inconsistent due to the creation of the siphoner CP passive, and full cost reduction builds will have trouble recovering resources once they inevitably run out of juice. Those non-regen recovery sources will give you consistent albeit limited resource return as you fight.

I am a more PvE oriented player. In PvP those things that you mention will make a comparison rather diffcult. in PvE however the fights are similar, so that enables to compare the things mathematically..

NightbladeMechanics

Cêltic421 wrote: »

Regen works during combat.

For now.

3.0.4 changes inc

Cêltic421

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Cêltic421 wrote: »

Regen works during combat.

For now.

3.0.4 changes inc

I didn't know they were making it not work during combat.

usmcjdking

WhiteMage wrote: »

Werewolf slotted is 15% stamina recovery.

But then werewolf ult.

ADarklore

I think this thread needs further discussion now that Early Access has dropped. What are people finding for REAL-WORLD experience on their characters... is Cost Reduction better or higher Regen?

Masel

Updated with heavy attacks and other sources of sustain.

Masel

Updated with individual buff on/off buttons.

Chrlynsch

Ewwww A Math

Sheey

The problem with regen is as soon as you get poisoned, you can't recover anymore. With costreduction you can at least survive well with low cost skills.

Izaki

Sheey wrote: »

The problem with regen is as soon as you get poisoned, you can't recover anymore. With costreduction you can at least survive well with low cost skills.

What? When you're poisoned the recovery isn't affected at all.

danno8

It is interesting for sure since Morrowind. I would say that the introduction of the siphoner star makes the choice a bit closer for PvP, also the buff to resource returns from heavy attacks makes improves cost reduction since that resource return will go further the cheaper your skills. Although with all the people blocking and with that stopping heavy attack resource returns it may be a bit of a wash.

Also on my Templar the flat return from Channeled Focus goes further if you are using cost reduction, same with Elemental Drain and the aforementioned heavy attacks.

It really does not feel clear-cut to me, but what I do like is when you are out of combat or taking cover in PvP you recover your resources much faster with good regeneration.

Poisons are really not very fair, and if they have to exist they should reduce recovery by 15% and increase cost by 15% so they are not such a middle finger to low-cost builds. Same with the new siphoning star.

Sheey

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Sheey wrote: »

The problem with regen is as soon as you get poisoned, you can't recover anymore. With costreduction you can at least survive well with low cost skills.

What? When you're poisoned the recovery isn't affected at all.

Wrong. Your ability costs getting higher and you run out faster as whenn you stick to costreduction.

Masel

Sheey wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Sheey wrote: »

The problem with regen is as soon as you get poisoned, you can't recover anymore. With costreduction you can at least survive well with low cost skills.

What? When you're poisoned the recovery isn't affected at all.

Wrong. Your ability costs getting higher and you run out faster as whenn you stick to costreduction.

Ahh you mean drain resource poisons, not the poisoned status effect. That makes sense, yes.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Hircine is 12% increase in stam recovery and worm cult is only 4% now too.

Izaki

Sheey wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Sheey wrote: »

The problem with regen is as soon as you get poisoned, you can't recover anymore. With costreduction you can at least survive well with low cost skills.

What? When you're poisoned the recovery isn't affected at all.

Wrong. Your ability costs getting higher and you run out faster as whenn you stick to costreduction.

Poisoned status effect (aka poisoned) =/= cost increase poisons. And either way, your recovery isn't directly affected by the cost increase poisons, the only thing that can debuff recovery directly is the Siphoner CP star.

Sheey

Recovery = 100 + (15 Cp) - 60% poisons --> 160% Ability cost increase.

Skillcosts are are 160% higher, the regen you get from Cp is almost irelevant.Your base costs are still 100%. 15% more regen wont save you from poisons. The time your 15% regen fills up to use your next ability is 16 seconds. (15x8=100x2=Time)

Lets take a look what seducer does.

100 + (-8%) + 60%
92 is our new Base cost (100%)

Add +60% poison to 92 and your Ability costs will be at ~ 144 with poisons. (16 costs saved from 160)

Costreduction works backwards, instead of every 2 seconds you regen XXamount, you save the costs of your abilities by procentual 50% of what your reduced basecost to original basecost is. (100-92=8x2= 16)

This was just a simple example with only 1 impact on ur stats but the difference is noticeable.

Lowering Basecosts of Abilities, makes you sustain longer when getting poisoned.

Inarre

Is the higher net recovery/drain the better?

If that's true, maybe I'm misunderstanding what I'm doing. Using your calculator I tested several builds. As a Templar Healer (testing with 6L-1H... 5H/1L/1M... various skill recovery boons and magica recovery/reduction set bonuses) i am seeing a common theme that is cost reduction is ALWAYS better for me according to the calculator. Even trying an altmer in the same builds vs breton, the breton is winning out regardless of whether there is either more reduction or regeneration added to the build. Likewise, cost reduction on jewelry seems to be substantially better.

Even if I stack as much recovery as possible (amberplasm, 20% skill recovery bonus, 3 recovery glyphs, altmer) doing the same (seducers 8% reduction, 3 reduction glyphs, breton with the recovery bonus) which in theory should be less effective still beats out a full recovery build with an altmer (unless I stack much more recovery such as adding vampire and slotting more magica aid skills than the breton build)

This seems in direct contradiction to your statement; "This also implies that flat cost reductions diminish the return of % reductions and flat recovery bonuses empower the strength of % recovery increases."

I wonder what I am messing up xD Or is it just that at max CP recovery and sufficient recovery bonuses from skills and gear that investing in reduction elsewhere is always better? Hmm.

Sheey

Yes, you need to understand in a fast-paced game, how the developers eso want to be, the less powerfull recovery gets.

Sheey

Regen was better im the time of capped resources.

Inarre

I think I see why I am seeing what I am seeing. Currently i left the default in for casting times

Recovery ticks every 2 seconds but also works while you are not in combat, so if you cast a skill every second cost reduction has basically double the effectiveness per flat point.

Masel

@Inarre

There is an error in the calculator that takes cost reduction twice as much as recovery and flat buffs, I upadted the Calculator, it functions fully automatically now. It should be error-free now. Once i'm finished qith my guide for it I will erase the OP in this thread and make a new one in the combat section. Now you'll see that cost reduction is actually worse in many scenarios, e.g. Seducer is worse than Lich.

Updated Calculator can be found here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5rszf39l3mj6nlw/Sustain Analyser.xlsm?dl=0

You need to activate the Macros so the Buttons work, otherwise its mostly the same as before.

Inarre

@Masel92 Thanks, I just redid all of my sets with the adjusted attacks per second and came out the same. I will try your updated calculator now

Inarre

Reporting back - I tried the set up again and the numbers seem closer, but still showing that reduction is better, even if stacking huge amounts (Ex: Breton templar with seducers/cost reduction glyphs etc will win out over altmer with all the same stats except recovery glyphs instead of cost, and with an 8% additional regeneration bonus instead of seducers)

In my set up I was testing with PVP in mind, so I did not involve group buffs such as elemental drain, shards/orbs etc, I also have max Arcanist and only about 8% in Tenacity.

Here's my set up. Maybe it really is just that I am so spam-happy in big fights?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jg0hgifgm2x8bwy/Sustain Analyser -- Inarre.xlsm?dl=0