Let this thread die

firedrgn

We can not solve our problems with the same level of thinking that created them
Albert Einstein

Mumyo

JackDaniell wrote: »

Thank you for the shout out Liam! And yes this is a TERRIBLE change!

From the patch notes: Bow
Heavy Attacks now automatically fire when they are fully charged.

Developer Comment:
Fully-charged Heavy Attacks will be more important with the resource changes coming in this update, so we want to make sure there are no gameplay barriers to using them.

I have allot of trouble seeing how this change does anything but ADD BARIERS to using a UNIQUELY FUNCTIONING HEAVY ATTACK. zeni max seems determined to water down all playstyles to be the same.

couldn´t agree more. @ZOS u are placing a barrier right there!

DRXHarbinger

Sharee wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

ZoS did you genuinely sit there and think people were actually forgetting to release the arrow or something?

I think it's pretty obvious: Since managing your resources with heavy attacks will be much more important now, having bow heavy attacks not auto-release when fully charged would make people either misjudge and release the attack too soon (thus getting no resources back) or releasing it too late, lowering their resource gains. (if you release a 1 sec charge heavy just 100ms later, you just nerfed your resource regen by 10%).

Yes but how many of us will actually be managing resources with a bow now. Fighting at range with a bow in pvp...99% of instances you won't be low on stamina, also from a pvp stance youll want that kill with a 2h equipped for the regen passive. If you're fighting melee you aren't going to back away and charge a bow attack now are you? The needs of the very very few here are vastly outweighing the needs of the many.

From a dev standpoint: there are X weapons in his game, and one of them returns less resources over time than the others because it requires a manual release of heavy attacks while the others don't. So he fixes it. He doesn't give rat's ass about your fighting preferences. You do not balance game fundamentals around what the "current hottest meta" is.

It's got nothing to do with meta whatsoever. No one in this game uses bow like this new intended method either for combat or managing resources. Can you imagine the conversation that follows next time you wipe as a Stam dps your leader saying...well Bro you should have backed off and used your bow to gain resources??? Or standing at the back "managing resources" with a bow in a Trial or relatively hard hm dungeon boss? No thanks. Completely pointless change. Benefits barely anyone.

ixie

Well at least the bots will be able to use bows now

timidobserver

Bad change but I get why they did it.

They need to come up with a way to preserve the bow style in PvP while also making bow usable as a weaving weapon in PvE. One band-aid fix would be to apply the auto fire to PvE and leave it as it is in PvP.

STEVIL

ixie wrote: »

Well at least the bots will be able to use bows now

Those bots won't be as happy if they do now.

STEVIL

Tholian1 wrote: »

Can anyone tell me if the change to bows now makes it possible to just hold down the button and allow the bow to continuously auto-fire heavy attacks like with the melee weapons? I hope that is not the case.

tested and yes... hold down and it builds and auto-fires just like inferno staves, ice staves, dagger, sword, axe, mace, great axe, greatsword and maul do. Really, its also like lightning and resto, they auto-release and restart too, just they channel in between.

Toc de Malsvi

You should never have to fire with a bow. There is a base problem with this, holding or not, you should be able to release the draw.

EDIT: If a toggle version was to come about and people were worried about immersion, you could have stamina drain occur after 3-5s of holding it fully drawn.

OutLaw_Nynx

I'm fine with these changes

Xsorus

This is going to improve constant fire Bow builds DPS while reducing gank builds in my opinion.

CatchMeTrolling

This is one of those changes that make you wonder what was going through their mind at the time, especially since no one asked for it.

And I don't even use a bow.

firedrgn

Something like this seems like a third morph would be nice. Just let the player decide. Unless the explanation is like the buff explanation and they really want to nerf PvP. Because no one cares if someone gank an NPC.

Sharee

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

ZoS did you genuinely sit there and think people were actually forgetting to release the arrow or something?

I think it's pretty obvious: Since managing your resources with heavy attacks will be much more important now, having bow heavy attacks not auto-release when fully charged would make people either misjudge and release the attack too soon (thus getting no resources back) or releasing it too late, lowering their resource gains. (if you release a 1 sec charge heavy just 100ms later, you just nerfed your resource regen by 10%).

Yes but how many of us will actually be managing resources with a bow now. Fighting at range with a bow in pvp...99% of instances you won't be low on stamina, also from a pvp stance youll want that kill with a 2h equipped for the regen passive. If you're fighting melee you aren't going to back away and charge a bow attack now are you? The needs of the very very few here are vastly outweighing the needs of the many.

From a dev standpoint: there are X weapons in his game, and one of them returns less resources over time than the others because it requires a manual release of heavy attacks while the others don't. So he fixes it. He doesn't give rat's ass about your fighting preferences. You do not balance game fundamentals around what the "current hottest meta" is.

It's got nothing to do with meta whatsoever. No one in this game uses bow like this

That would be the "meta" i was talking about.

worsttankever

waitwhat wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno

The bow change is an excellent gift for bow users, gankers, and those who like to be prepared when the enemy rounds the corner alike.

As someone who has spent a great deal of time practicing the animation cancelling with heavy attacks in Cyrodiil, I've long since run up against the limitations of animation cancelling with a bow due to the hold-until-release mechanic.

This change better allows me to animation cancel not only Lethal Arrow and Poison Injection, the two previously weavable skills, but also allows me to weave in a wider skillset from the bow line and elsewhere. It will also allow me to animation cancel across bars, as I could with DW/2H, but cannot presently do.

The argument that one must have a heavy attack charged in preparation for the enemy rounding the corner or what have you is ridiculous. Instead, the bow user should be activating Lethal Arrow from crouch, so as to achieve 1) the immobilization from stealth, 2) equipped poison activation applying hindrance or resource drain, and 3) MAJOR DEFILE. This activation of Lethal Arrow would then be followed by a weaved heavy attack, and from there, poison injection. If crouched stealth is not an option, the bow user should apply lethal arrow when the enemy comes into view, followed by bombard/acid spray to apply hindrance, and then a roll dodge to remove themselves from the attacker's gap-close range.

Allowing for more varied, and efficient, weaving with the bow is of course a boon to stam dps in PvE, but it must be noted that it opens up a world of possibilities for ability barrages from stamina users.

I am baffled as to why this, of all things, was greeted with derision, when there's so much else for stamina users to justifiably hate.

As a stamblade bow/bow user in Cyrodiil (been that way since the beginning), this change is a dream come true for me, and you know that I would be screaming bloody murder if it were otherwise.

@waitwhat I just want to say - I was initially tepid / against the heavy attack change. Mostly because my NB uses bow heavy attacks from stealth. Thank you for your constructive and eloquent advice. It's insights like this (opening with lethal arrow) which is why I read the forums.

Sydria

Personally I'm very happy about the Bow Heavy Attack change for my playstyle.
BUT I know many people liked the old style, so I'd prefer it to be a toggle to make both sides happy.

To be honest a toggle for all Weapon Heavy Attacks would be even better of cause.

altemriel

Liam12548 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert

PLEASE CONSIDER REVERTING THIS CHANGE. "Fully charged heavy attacks from bow now fire when charged".

In pvp, a huge part of using bow is charging a heavy attack and holding it until an opponent comes around a corner, within range, etc. This change will completely remove this ability and make the bow even more useless than it already is.

I understand the concern for ease of use with the new importance of heavy attacks, but you are destroying an entire playstyle with this change. Please consider either making this option a toggle or reverting it entirely. It is VERY easy to tell when a bow is fully charged, there is no reason to harm the playstyle in the name of "Streamlining" gameplay.

Please reference the below video for a strong example of this playstyle, and why it will be ruined if this change hits live. This video is from the youtube channel "KristoferESO", run by a player who goes by the forum name "JackDaniell".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi_zGhNgpW8

@JackDaniell

ZOS please re-consider the change!!!!


@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober @Wrobel @ZOS_MattFiror @ZOS_RichLambert

technohic

I just can't see a legitimate reason against reverting it. If you really want to heavy attack weave a bow, then you are activating an ability which triggers the release anyway. Only thing I can think of is if you want to just heavy attack spam and doing this will not change the fact that you suck.

Anne_Firehawk

Love the change, less ganktards in PVP

STEVIL

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

This is one of those changes that make you wonder what was going through their mind at the time, especially since no one asked for it.

And I don't even use a bow.

incorrect. During the period before this was changed, on pts, there were posts saying that bows needed auto-release due to the delay reducing resource return. Wasn't a huge hue and cry by any means but i recall seeing at least one such post in the hvy attack threads and i only skimmed a few of them.

Kalante

I am so sick and tired of people who think us stam nb users only use it as a ganking character. This Ganking/assassin mentality is a problem that has plagued and limited the nb in many different aspects of the game imo. I wish they could get rid of it.

CatchMeTrolling

STEVIL wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

This is one of those changes that make you wonder what was going through their mind at the time, especially since no one asked for it.

And I don't even use a bow.

incorrect. During the period before this was changed, on pts, there were posts saying that bows needed auto-release due to the delay reducing resource return. Wasn't a huge hue and cry by any means but i recall seeing at least one such post in the hvy attack threads and i only skimmed a few of them.

I've never seen anyone say that, holding the bow helps people set up combos & when they choose to attack. And by anyone I mean a large enough portion of people to warrant a change. I'm confident most will disagree with the change or not care at all, the only real reason I could think of is reducing bow gank set ups but you don't need a bow to gank.

sdtlc

Add 1-2 secs on fully drawn, then autorelease, since you won't be able to hold a bow drawn while walking trought your town.
DO NOT TRY THIS, you'll probably get shot by your local police officer

QuebraRegra

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Any vids about holding fireball on the edge of inferno staff?

Hmm, I think I like this... would this be a good feature?

QuebraRegra

jakeedmundson wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

Thank you for the shout out Liam! And yes this is a TERRIBLE change!

From the patch notes: Bow
Heavy Attacks now automatically fire when they are fully charged.

Developer Comment:
Fully-charged Heavy Attacks will be more important with the resource changes coming in this update, so we want to make sure there are no gameplay barriers to using them.

I have allot of trouble seeing how this change does anything but ADD BARIERS to using a UNIQUELY FUNCTIONING HEAVY ATTACK. zeni max seems determined to water down all playstyles to be the same.

I also have a terrible time seeing it from a real life application too. Bow hunters boast how accurate they can be with how long they can hold the how's draw. Some people can hold abow string pull for 2 minutes before firing off an accurate shot.

Edit:
Source = https://forums.bowhunting.com/threads/how-long-can-you-honestly-hold-your-bow-back-and-still-shoot-accurately.34465/

(From google)How to fire a bow:

1. Stance. Stance prior to shooting the bow: Stand upright with feet shoulder width apart, and feet at 90 degrees to the target.
2. Grip. ...
3. Place The Arrow On The Bow. ...
4. Finger Position. ...
5. Draw. ...
6. Aiming. ...
7. Release.

Notice step 5. DRAW coming in before aiming and release.

https://youtu.be/wESnn1ox85U

In this instructional video on firing an arrow the instructor STRESSES THE IMPORTANCE OF DRAWING YOUR SHOT AND SETTING IT BEFORE RELEASING THE ARROW.

ZENIMAX MY IMMERSION. ZENIMAX MY UNIQUE GAMEPLAY.

seriously though, only a tard would fire arrows like they are proposing.

I know this is just a joke... but people want to talk about immersion and making it seem realistic or ruining some random niche build...it's insane... get over it. This style fits with every other weapon in the game now.

To prove your immersion concept doesn't fit...

first - Go out and find a bow... not a compound bow... find a recurve bow or a long bow... 50lb draw weight is pretty average for an adult. I use a 55lb when i target shoot (i have a friend that hunts with a 70lb draw and he's a monster)

second - do a full draw all the way to anchor... if you're even able to

third - attempt to HOLD that draw while you aim at something indefinitely....just like you are wanting to do in this game.

come back and let me know how long you could hold it... here's a hint, it won't be very long. Most people only hold it for a couple seconds. (compound bows like the one in the video... are MUCH easier to hold - we dont' have those in ESO)

Sorry, did that ruin your "immersion"?

I shoot with a 70lb draw bow and can hold it for a while.

Maybe add a timer forcing release/un-nock after x time? Maybe have a held bow prevent stam regen? Maybe have a held bow, consume stam after "x" time?

Tholian1

technohic wrote: »

I just can't see a legitimate reason against reverting it. If you really want to heavy attack weave a bow, then you are activating an ability which triggers the release anyway. Only thing I can think of is if you want to just heavy attack spam and doing this will not change the fact that you suck.

Yeah. They are trading their light attack spam for a hold the button down heavy attack spam. SMH

QuebraRegra

Xvorg wrote: »

Is there any player who doesn't feel that with MW ZoS has gone too far touching certain area of his body not to be named and shamed?

http://imgur.com/rpHiNJm

BAD TOUCH!

Moglijuana

Oh no...jk I've been having to time my destro heavies for 2+ years. You can do it on a bow. It's not that hard.

STEVIL

Moglijuana wrote: »

Oh no...jk I've been having to time my destro heavies for 2+ years. You can do it on a bow. It's not that hard.

Well, for staff users it isnt a big deal but for some bow users it seems to be more of a challenge if we go on outrage as a metric.

waitwhat

technohic wrote: »

I just can't see a legitimate reason against reverting it. If you really want to heavy attack weave a bow, then you are activating an ability which triggers the release anyway. Only thing I can think of is if you want to just heavy attack spam and doing this will not change the fact that you suck.

@technohic

There are only two bow abilities (snipe and poison injection) that allow you to trigger the release without losing the heavy attack, and it takes a lot of very good timing.

We don't really want to heavy attack spam, although as stamina's only ranged 2h weapon that's a pretty good idea in PvP, but these stamina changes pretty much force us to do heavy weaving.

technohic

waitwhat wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I just can't see a legitimate reason against reverting it. If you really want to heavy attack weave a bow, then you are activating an ability which triggers the release anyway. Only thing I can think of is if you want to just heavy attack spam and doing this will not change the fact that you suck.

@technohic

There are only two bow abilities (snipe and poison injection) that allow you to trigger the release without losing the heavy attack, and it takes a lot of very good timing.

We don't really want to heavy attack spam, although as stamina's only ranged 2h weapon that's a pretty good idea in PvP, but these stamina changes pretty much force us to do heavy weaving.

There's always class abilities and bombard although expensive, and silver shards