Hidden Nerfs: Breton, Seducer, Wormcult, Light Armor, etc.

Siliziumdioxid

First of some explanation:
Let's say you have some passives that give Spell cost reduction.
For Example one gives 5% another gives 4% and another 10%. The way the resulting Spellcost reduction is calculated is by adding those numbers: 5%+4%+10%=19%.
This may seem trivial but it is in that the strength of cost reduction lies:

For example you already have for some reason 95% cost reduction. What would you choose:
Something that increases your resource gain by 100% or a passive that reduces your cost by an additional 5%?
I would choose the 5% because 95%+5%=100% therefore you would have no cost at all and those 5% would give you a relative spell cost reduction of 100%.
Fact is:
The more cost reduction you already have the better the relative cost reduction of further cost reduction becomes.
(Magician on Live and Spellcost reduction Glyphs are exceptions since the cost reduction of the first applies multiplicatively and the second basically reduces the basecost additively)

Now since Light and Medium armor has been nerfed and give less cost reduction we can reevaluate the relative cost reduction of a few examples:
Let's say we play a Templar so therefore we gain 4% cost reduction.
Breton:

I often read or hear people stating that breton is the king in sustain this is true to some extend though i can give counterexamples where Altmer clearly outperforms Breton resource wise on current live server. When you compare Altmer and Breton on PTS i highly doubt that Breton will be BiS sustainwise, this is also due to the changes to Arcanist, Constitution, etc..
So in the current state of the patch notes there is not much reason to pick a Breton except for the look or the spell resist.

Wormcult:
Now this set is meant for a dungeon/trial group to support their ressource management. now concerning that most magicka dps are sorcerers wear 5 light and are Altmer or Dumner the relative spell cost reduction is: 6.25% with the nerfs to light armor it is: 5.882% with the nerf to the set itself: 4.705%.

Now the same holds true for Seducer, Alteration Mastery, etc. but i'm too lazy to calculate the exact values

All that may seem like some minor nerfs but the thing is for everything that lasts let's say over a minute the last few percent really decide whether you run dry or not. especially in situations where you heavily rely on casting abilities this is an issue. Due to the fact that Magician falls away and they want to nerf Light and Medium Armor(Why?) so that resource management becomes a real issue (which it already is depending on the situation) they also nerfed the tools to resource Management further.

(By the way spell cost reduction glyphs has been nerfed too now they subtract directly from the base cost instead of the 16% reduced base cost.)
Sorry for my bad English

Minalan

Nice one ZOS. Well played. That makes Seducer closer to 6-7% depending on how many glyphs you have stacked?

Thanks @ZOS_RichLambert you've also sort of screwed the whole Breton cost reduction passive.

Siliziumdioxid

Not exactly

Minalan wrote: »

Nice one ZOS. Well played. That makes Seducer closer to 6-7% depending on how many glyphs you have stacked?

Not exactly other cost reduction can only make other cost reduction better so it is definitely not in the 6-7% range but just not anymore in the 11% cost reduction range. It is independent to how many cost reduction glyphs you have.

By the way the exact formula how cost reduction works can be found here:
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/

It is basically Cost= (Basecost*(Magician)-Cost reduction Glyphs)*(Abilities+Gear)

Masel

I said this in another thread lately too and did a calculation. That is why I think that it might be better to go with regeneration instead of cost reduction, as the percentage values become less efficient when flat values are already applied. It works the other way around with regen, which is why I think increasing the effectiveness of regeneration with buffs and passives is better than cost reduction.

If course not if you have to sprint and block a lot...

Jamascus

Masel92 wrote: »

I said this in another thread lately too and did a calculation. That is why I think that it might be better to go with regeneration instead of cost reduction, as the percentage values become less efficient when flat values are already applied. It works the other way around with regen, which is why I think increasing the effectiveness of regeneration with buffs and passives is better than cost reduction.

If course not if you have to sprint and block a lot...

Since spell cost reduction won't be available as much as it used to, does it make sense to roll a Breton for that racial passive since you can get regen on gear sets? I think we only get spell cost. red. from Breton passive and jewelry now, right?

Siliziumdioxid

Jamascus wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

I said this in another thread lately too and did a calculation. That is why I think that it might be better to go with regeneration instead of cost reduction, as the percentage values become less efficient when flat values are already applied. It works the other way around with regen, which is why I think increasing the effectiveness of regeneration with buffs and passives is better than cost reduction.

If course not if you have to sprint and block a lot...

Since spell cost reduction won't be available as much as it used to, does it make sense to roll a Breton for that racial passive since you can get regen on gear sets? I think we only get spell cost. red. from Breton passive and jewelry now, right?

Not really. The Breton 3% cost reduction stands against a 9% regen increase from Altmer.
On the first look the Altmer passive looks way stronger but there are things to consider:

First: Regeneration is not the only source of Magicka, you can get lots of Magicka from Orbs, Eledrain, Destrokills, Channeled Focus, Siphoning strikes, etc. so the Altmer passive is not that strong because it does not increase the overall resource gain by 9% but only the regeneration. Now on the PTS the way to get resources aside from regen has been tuned down(Orbs Eledrain). Especially if you run a pvp build with let's say 5 piece Lich then the Altmer passive is way more beneficial.

Second: As i tried to explain up in the original post that cost reduction becomes more effective the more cost reduction you already have. On PTS you can't get that high cost reduction anymore.

Third: The Altmer passive was never giving a multiplicative 9% regen increase. This was due to the additive nature of regen increase passives. So let's say you have 25% from Arcanist, 15% from 5 Light Armor, 4% from 2 Mages guild Abilities and 9% from Altmer. You calculate the regen increase now by adding the percent values: 25%+15%+4%+9%=53%. A non Altmer would have a 44% regen increase, which gives that passive a 6.25% multiplicative increase. Now Arcanist is on PTS tuned down to 15% thus the Altmer passive gives a multiplicative increase of 6.71% thus making this passive more viable.

So no i don't think that Breton is better than an Altmer resourcewise on Pts.

If you cast skills on global cooldown then the cost reduction is definitely better if you cast every 2-4 seconds at average then regen becomes better.

NightbladeMechanics

Masel92 wrote: »

I said this in another thread lately too and did a calculation. That is why I think that it might be better to go with regeneration instead of cost reduction, as the percentage values become less efficient when flat values are already applied. It works the other way around with regen, which is why I think increasing the effectiveness of regeneration with buffs and passives is better than cost reduction.

If course not if you have to sprint and block a lot...

Siphoner cp passive too.

Magıc

Siliziumdioxid wrote: »

Jamascus wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

I said this in another thread lately too and did a calculation. That is why I think that it might be better to go with regeneration instead of cost reduction, as the percentage values become less efficient when flat values are already applied. It works the other way around with regen, which is why I think increasing the effectiveness of regeneration with buffs and passives is better than cost reduction.

If course not if you have to sprint and block a lot...

Since spell cost reduction won't be available as much as it used to, does it make sense to roll a Breton for that racial passive since you can get regen on gear sets? I think we only get spell cost. red. from Breton passive and jewelry now, right?

Not really. The Breton 3% cost reduction stands against a 9% regen increase from Altmer.
On the first look the Altmer passive looks way stronger but there are things to consider:

First: Regeneration is not the only source of Magicka, you can get lots of Magicka from Orbs, Eledrain, Destrokills, Channeled Focus, Siphoning strikes, etc. so the Altmer passive is not that strong because it does not increase the overall resource gain by 9% but only the regeneration. Now on the PTS the way to get resources aside from regen has been tuned down(Orbs Eledrain). Especially if you run a pvp build with let's say 5 piece Lich then the Altmer passive is way more beneficial.

Second: As i tried to explain up in the original post that cost reduction becomes more effective the more cost reduction you already have. On PTS you can't get that high cost reduction anymore.

Third: The Altmer passive was never giving a multiplicative 9% regen increase. This was due to the additive nature of regen increase passives. So let's say you have 25% from Arcanist, 15% from 5 Light Armor, 4% from 2 Mages guild Abilities and 9% from Altmer. You calculate the regen increase now by adding the percent values: 25%+15%+4%+9%=53%. A non Altmer would have a 44% regen increase, which gives that passive a 6.25% multiplicative increase. Now Arcanist is on PTS tuned down to 15% thus the Altmer passive gives a multiplicative increase of 6.71% thus making this passive more viable.

So no i don't think that Breton is better than an Altmer resourcewise on Pts.

If you cast skills on global cooldown then the cost reduction is definitely better if you cast every 2-4 seconds at average then regen becomes better.

Well in pvp and pve you're casting every 1s (global CD) so basically you're saying Breton is better unless you're just not attacking for 2 seconds at a time?

Siliziumdioxid

Magıc wrote: »

Siliziumdioxid wrote: »

Jamascus wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

I said this in another thread lately too and did a calculation. That is why I think that it might be better to go with regeneration instead of cost reduction, as the percentage values become less efficient when flat values are already applied. It works the other way around with regen, which is why I think increasing the effectiveness of regeneration with buffs and passives is better than cost reduction.

If course not if you have to sprint and block a lot...

Since spell cost reduction won't be available as much as it used to, does it make sense to roll a Breton for that racial passive since you can get regen on gear sets? I think we only get spell cost. red. from Breton passive and jewelry now, right?

Not really. The Breton 3% cost reduction stands against a 9% regen increase from Altmer.
On the first look the Altmer passive looks way stronger but there are things to consider:

First: Regeneration is not the only source of Magicka, you can get lots of Magicka from Orbs, Eledrain, Destrokills, Channeled Focus, Siphoning strikes, etc. so the Altmer passive is not that strong because it does not increase the overall resource gain by 9% but only the regeneration. Now on the PTS the way to get resources aside from regen has been tuned down(Orbs Eledrain). Especially if you run a pvp build with let's say 5 piece Lich then the Altmer passive is way more beneficial.

Second: As i tried to explain up in the original post that cost reduction becomes more effective the more cost reduction you already have. On PTS you can't get that high cost reduction anymore.

Third: The Altmer passive was never giving a multiplicative 9% regen increase. This was due to the additive nature of regen increase passives. So let's say you have 25% from Arcanist, 15% from 5 Light Armor, 4% from 2 Mages guild Abilities and 9% from Altmer. You calculate the regen increase now by adding the percent values: 25%+15%+4%+9%=53%. A non Altmer would have a 44% regen increase, which gives that passive a 6.25% multiplicative increase. Now Arcanist is on PTS tuned down to 15% thus the Altmer passive gives a multiplicative increase of 6.71% thus making this passive more viable.

So no i don't think that Breton is better than an Altmer resourcewise on Pts.

If you cast skills on global cooldown then the cost reduction is definitely better if you cast every 2-4 seconds at average then regen becomes better.

Well in pvp and pve you're casting every 1s (global CD) so basically you're saying Breton is better unless you're just not attacking for 2 seconds at a time?

Sorry there is some error in my wording of the last statement i made: I was referring to the costreduction glyphs but i did not wrote it down for some reason

Ultimate_Overlord

Wrong. Cost reductions are multiplicative with each other. So if youre, for example, a breton with seducer your cost is 1*0.97*0.92. Returns on spell cost reduction are diminising, not increasing, at least they used to be.

Masel

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

Wrong. Cost reductions are multiplicative with each other. So if youre, for example, a breton with seducer your cost is 1*0.97*0.92. Returns on spell cost reduction are diminising, not increasing, at least they used to be.

Percentage values in ESO aren't multiplicative.

Simply put, eso stat calculation is Sum of Flat bonuses*(1+Sum of percentage bonuses)

So e.g. 400 regen and 100 regen with two 10% bonuses is 500*1.2=600, not 500*(1.1)^2=500*1.21=605.

Same goes for cost reduction, in that case it's a good thing as you lose less than if the percentage values stacked.

So for cost reduction, stacking percentage values is better than mixing flat and percentage values as flat cost decrease jewellery enchants diminish the return of percentage based cost reduction.

danno8

Masel92 wrote: »

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

Wrong. Cost reductions are multiplicative with each other. So if youre, for example, a breton with seducer your cost is 1*0.97*0.92. Returns on spell cost reduction are diminising, not increasing, at least they used to be.

Percentage values in ESO aren't multiplicative.

Simply put, eso stat calculation is Sum of Flat bonuses*(1+Sum of percentage bonuses)

So e.g. 400 regen and 100 regen with two 10% bonuses is 500*1.2=600, not 500*(1.1)^2=500*1.21=605.

Same goes for cost reduction, in that case it's a good thing as you lose less than if the percentage values stacked.

So for cost reduction, stacking percentage values is better than mixing flat and percentage values as flat cost decrease jewellery enchants diminish the return of percentage based cost reduction.

Not sure if that's global though. Damage reduction for example. If I could get 50% DR from armour, 30% DR from Major Protection and then the 15%+change from say the Templat Empowering Sweep, then I could very easily get 100% DR. But that's not what happens.

Are we all very sure about the maths in this thread?

Minno

Minalan wrote: »

Nice one ZOS. Well played. That makes Seducer closer to 6-7% depending on how many glyphs you have stacked?

Thanks @ZOS_RichLambert you've also sort of screwed the whole Breton cost reduction passive.

They should just give back the templar's "resource return on spells used" passive. I doubt they will adjust the breton in time.

Masel

danno8 wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

Wrong. Cost reductions are multiplicative with each other. So if youre, for example, a breton with seducer your cost is 1*0.97*0.92. Returns on spell cost reduction are diminising, not increasing, at least they used to be.

Percentage values in ESO aren't multiplicative.

Simply put, eso stat calculation is Sum of Flat bonuses*(1+Sum of percentage bonuses)

So e.g. 400 regen and 100 regen with two 10% bonuses is 500*1.2=600, not 500*(1.1)^2=500*1.21=605.

Same goes for cost reduction, in that case it's a good thing as you lose less than if the percentage values stacked.

So for cost reduction, stacking percentage values is better than mixing flat and percentage values as flat cost decrease jewellery enchants diminish the return of percentage based cost reduction.

Not sure if that's global though. Damage reduction for example. If I could get 50% DR from armour, 30% DR from Major Protection and then the 15%+change from say the Templat Empowering Sweep, then I could very easily get 100% DR. But that's not what happens.

Are we all very sure about the maths in this thread?

I'm talking about STAT calculation. The equation holds for character stats such as max stamina, weapon damage, critical damage modifiers etc (critical damage modifier was different before the warhorn nerf, now it's like that). Mitigation is more complex due to all the factors that influence it (blocking, set bonuses, resistance values, skills). I suggest looking at a thread from @paulsimonps if you want details on that.

paulsimonps

Masel92 wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

Wrong. Cost reductions are multiplicative with each other. So if youre, for example, a breton with seducer your cost is 1*0.97*0.92. Returns on spell cost reduction are diminising, not increasing, at least they used to be.

Percentage values in ESO aren't multiplicative.

Simply put, eso stat calculation is Sum of Flat bonuses*(1+Sum of percentage bonuses)

So e.g. 400 regen and 100 regen with two 10% bonuses is 500*1.2=600, not 500*(1.1)^2=500*1.21=605.

Same goes for cost reduction, in that case it's a good thing as you lose less than if the percentage values stacked.

So for cost reduction, stacking percentage values is better than mixing flat and percentage values as flat cost decrease jewellery enchants diminish the return of percentage based cost reduction.

Not sure if that's global though. Damage reduction for example. If I could get 50% DR from armour, 30% DR from Major Protection and then the 15%+change from say the Templat Empowering Sweep, then I could very easily get 100% DR. But that's not what happens.

Are we all very sure about the maths in this thread?

I'm talking about STAT calculation. The equation holds for character stats such as max stamina, weapon damage, critical damage modifiers etc (critical damage modifier was different before the warhorn nerf, now it's like that). Mitigation is more complex due to all the factors that influence it (blocking, set bonuses, resistance values, skills). I suggest looking at a thread from @paulsimonps if you want details on that.

Can confirm that the math of cost reduction, without CP is as follows:

(Base-(enchantments strength*number of enchantments))*(100-(passive#1+passive#2+passive#3......))/100=Cost of skill.

And so while in theory if you had enough cost reduction passives you could get no cost at all, but in practice there is not enough such passives to get you to that. But yea the percentage cost reductions are not multiplicative, aka, there is no diminishing returns, they add together and then reduces the cost with their combined percent.

And so as @Masel92 mentioned its nothing like the damage mitigation calculations.

Lucky28

yeah pretty much. this patch is such a *** mess.

ZOS really should scrape these "balance" changes before it's too late, but they won't.

Subversus

I am not a very intelligent individual when it comes to theory crafting... can someone please put it plain and simple for me: am I obligated to reroll my sexy breton magblade and sorc to altmer next patch?

Lucky28

Subversus wrote: »

I am not a very intelligent individual when it comes to theory crafting... can someone please put it plain and simple for me: am I obligated to reroll my sexy breton magblade and sorc to altmer next patch?

if you want to get the best out of your character, then yes.

Subversus

Lucky28 wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I am not a very intelligent individual when it comes to theory crafting... can someone please put it plain and simple for me: am I obligated to reroll my sexy breton magblade and sorc to altmer next patch?

if you want to get the best out of your character, then yes.

Feelsbadman

Lucky28

Subversus wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I am not a very intelligent individual when it comes to theory crafting... can someone please put it plain and simple for me: am I obligated to reroll my sexy breton magblade and sorc to altmer next patch?

if you want to get the best out of your character, then yes.

Feelsbadman

hmm, instead of balancing the game ZOS is just making a mess of new problems. leaves me with little hope for the future of this game.

Magıc

Lucky28 wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I am not a very intelligent individual when it comes to theory crafting... can someone please put it plain and simple for me: am I obligated to reroll my sexy breton magblade and sorc to altmer next patch?

if you want to get the best out of your character, then yes.

Interesting. Recovery will still be *** next patch with the nerfs to that too so I assume they difference between Breton and Altmer sustain wise will be minimal.

Lucky28

Magıc wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I am not a very intelligent individual when it comes to theory crafting... can someone please put it plain and simple for me: am I obligated to reroll my sexy breton magblade and sorc to altmer next patch?

if you want to get the best out of your character, then yes.

Interesting. Recovery will still be *** next patch with the nerfs to that too so I assume they difference between Breton and Altmer sustain wise will be minimal.

nah. because there is no cost reduction CP at all anymore. where there is still magicka recovery CP. Bretons cost reduction passive really isn't worth anything anymore. High elf is already (on live) better than breton, this just makes the gap bigger.

altemriel

bleh bleh

Narvuntien

They should remove the Mag and stam regen from CP as well and un-nerf light and medium armor.

Lord_Hev

Subversus wrote: »

I am not a very intelligent individual when it comes to theory crafting... can someone please put it plain and simple for me: am I obligated to reroll my sexy breton magblade and sorc to altmer next patch?

They are pretty much identical. Breton gets an edge next patch if you want to incorporate 5pc seducer and or cost reduction glyphs. Altmer is better if your build uses 5pc lich.

Now, you were a khajiit stamblade that wanted to convert to magic build, commit to it and strive for competitive minmax, then it would be worth the cost of your money.


The decision between breton and altmer is utterly irrelevant, plain and simple.

Subversus

@Lord_Hev guess I'll stick with breton, can't play anything that isn't a human or a cat

Magıc

Lucky28 wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I am not a very intelligent individual when it comes to theory crafting... can someone please put it plain and simple for me: am I obligated to reroll my sexy breton magblade and sorc to altmer next patch?

if you want to get the best out of your character, then yes.

Interesting. Recovery will still be *** next patch with the nerfs to that too so I assume they difference between Breton and Altmer sustain wise will be minimal.

nah. because there is no cost reduction CP at all anymore. where there is still magicka recovery CP. Bretons cost reduction passive really isn't worth anything anymore. High elf is already (on live) better than breton, this just makes the gap bigger.

And if I'm building around seducer for example? Hev says if that's the case then Breton is still the better choice. I don't do much number crunching on this game, so I have no clue, but I am wondering how much of a difference it'll be.

Subversus

Magıc wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

I am not a very intelligent individual when it comes to theory crafting... can someone please put it plain and simple for me: am I obligated to reroll my sexy breton magblade and sorc to altmer next patch?

if you want to get the best out of your character, then yes.

Interesting. Recovery will still be *** next patch with the nerfs to that too so I assume they difference between Breton and Altmer sustain wise will be minimal.

nah. because there is no cost reduction CP at all anymore. where there is still magicka recovery CP. Bretons cost reduction passive really isn't worth anything anymore. High elf is already (on live) better than breton, this just makes the gap bigger.

And if I'm building around seducer for example? Hev says if that's the case then Breton is still the better choice. I don't do much number crunching on this game, so I have no clue, but I am wondering how much of a difference it'll be.

Breton should be if not better at least as good as high elf in that case. It only seems logical tbh. The difference, however, should be very minimal. I for one would rather ditch the pointy ears for an extra heavy attack or two.

Lord_Hev

The thing to remember is that cost reduction in-fact, does not have diminishing returns. So seducer on Breton would be 11% cost reduction.

The loss of 16% cost reduction from CP is a major component to overall sustain. Getting any of it back is a big plus.

Zander98

I've played a Breton sorc on non Cp for over a year now.
Last summer for fun I ran a CC sorc with 5 seducers 5 alt mastery.
I hit like a wet noodle but couldn't run out of magical. Like couldn't. On non Cp.
I got efficient purge under 3K like that on Azuras. Lol.

Masel

Lord_Hev wrote: »

The thing to remember is that cost reduction in-fact, does not have diminishing returns. So seducer on Breton would be 11% cost reduction.

The loss of 16% cost reduction from CP is a major component to overall sustain. Getting any of it back is a big plus.

It does when you pair it with flat jewellery glyphs.