I'm Worried About Proc Sets

LeifErickson

For those who have played on the PTS or fought in battlegrounds against opponents wearing proc sets, you will know how powerful these now are. Everyone knows why they are so good and why they will be even better next patch, but if nothing is done to solve the issue, proc sets are going to be very bad news. Really the only solution I see that would completely solve the issue is to just straight up have proc sets not work in pvp. If not that, something needs to be done or next patch may be even worse than this patch.

Edit:
I posted this in another thread, but thought I would post it here as well.

"It seems some people . . . don't understand what is actually wrong with proc sets. Most people get the arguments that proc sets require little to no resources to use, are high damage, have short cooldowns, can stack with other proc sets blah blah blah. All those arguments are good, and they show why proc sets are overpowered, but they don't show what is actually wrong with proc sets.

The real problem with proc sets is similar to what the real problem with mechanics like evasion are. When major evasion was 20%, most people agreed that it was overpowered. Some might say that if it was reduced it wouldn't be a problem. But the real problem with evasion isn't that it was a high chance, but that it had little to no counterplay. It is a chance to dodge an attack. Even if major evasion was a 3% chance, it still would have the same problem in that a mechanic like that where you can passively dodge an attack does not belong in an action based combat system like ESO.

Lets look at Viper's Sting. This proc set provides "invisible" damage. By that I mean the damage comes from no where. There is nothing in this game (to my knowledge) that a player can do to another player that provides invisible damage like this except burning light and implosion which are two things that also don't belong in an action based combat system, but that is for another thread (did I forget something?). A player can play every class in this game and learn every skill and passive and will always know exactly what is happening to them because they can SEE IT. If I am fighting a stamblade, I can see exactly what is happening to me because I can see (or hear) what the other player is doing and react accordingly. Unless there is some animation cancelling god out there that I have never fought, even the best animation cancellers can't take this mechanic away. But Viper's Sting can. Now you might say that you can count the 4 seconds so you know when you will be hit by the Viper's Sting next, which is true, but there are other mechanics to take that away as well. For one, if the person hasn't attacked you yet, you won't know they are wearing the proc set. While there is potential to remember the motif of the set and play extra cautious against someone with that motif in case they MIGHT be wearing the set, that is also taken away by things like costumes and polymorphs. And if a player doesn't have addons to see when the Viper's Sting hits them, is it even possible to tell that they got hit by the proc except to guess? In that case, they wouldn't even be able to count it off.

Another powerful proc set is Selene's. This proc is different than Viper's Sting in that you can see it. However, it isn't a guarantee like Viper is. Yes you can count the cooldown off in your head, but it's a proc chance. Once you know the set is off cooldown, since it's a chance to proc the only real counterplay is to play extra defensively on the hard hitters and maybe even try to personally get hit by the soft hitters you can more easily outheal. However, that is much easier said than done. If that stamblade incaps you and you take the ult unblocked, if that Selene's procs, there is nothing you can do. You can make the argument that you should just never get hit by the incap, but as other people have pointed out, is it fair that that player is able to get that "free" damage like that? While you can actually see this proc set and hear it, it isn't as bad as sets like Viper, but still is probably overpowered in that it can be too strong when combined with heavy hitters like incap, making it basically unavoidable.

Valkyn Skoria is another powerful proc set. This set you can actually see and hear, unlike Viper's Sting. This set is strong for the other reasons people have stated, but it isn't the "invisible" damage like Viper's Sting is because you can actually listen for it and react accordingly. However, that's not to say that it isn't overpowered, it just isn't part of the problem I am specifically stating.

And then everyone's favorite set, Tremorscale. This set is a little weird in that it is instant like Viper's Sting, but different in that it is a proc chance (but insanely high!) and can only proc off taunts. This one isn't as bad as Viper because you can see it and you can also look for the taunt ability and count off the cooldown. Since it only procs off taunts, you can try to be extra cautious when you see the taunt ability come. While it may not have the same problem as Viper, it is still probably overpowered for the reasons others have stated.

In conclusion, proc sets specifically like Viper's Sting (they proc instantly off damage and provide no animation) have little to zero counterplay because it is almost impossible to identify them (especially if you have no addons). However, all proc sets are probably overpowered because of reasons like they require little to no resources to use, are high damage, have short cooldowns, can stack with other proc sets, etc. Proc sets like Viper's Sting should straight up not exist in an action based combat system like ESO, even if they only did 1k damage, because they are "invisible." Other proc sets are still too powerful and need to be changed.

Some might say that ESO isn't a competitive enough game for what I said to matter. You may be right and I guess I can't really argue with that. But we want this game to be the best it can possibly be, right?

Also, anyone have the link to that one article about how proc sets are worth about 3000 weapon damage? I think it was a Tamriel Foundry article, but I don't remember exactly what it said and I can't find it."

FlyLionel

I'm not on PTS but if by simply wearing tremor or skoria/veli is allowing you to get consistent kills while fully going into sustain+heavy attack mode..smh.

Ragnaroek93

Agreed. Stamblade with proc sets will be so OP

Zvorgin

Defiler + viper...

Beardimus

I agree with the no Proc damage sets in PvP, or make them use resource when they trigger otherwise they kinda wreck the point of the sustain changes!!

I do feel for some of the old proc sets, same as the crit change in Update 13 like Trimiacs Valor or Mal of Infernal etc it made them more useless but the potent ones something should have happened a while ago for PvP. Weopons kill. Armour shouldnt

NightbladeMechanics

Hmmmm I was worried this would happen. Thanks Leif.

Strider_Roshin

Zvorgin wrote: »

Defiler + viper...

How to spot someone who doesn't play on the PTS: They think Defiler is good

Strider_Roshin

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Agreed. Stamblade with proc sets will be so OP

Now imagine if a class had access to minor Berserk and had a passive that increases their physical damage by say... 6%. That would just be crazy now wouldn't it?

starlizard70ub17_ESO

Zvorgin wrote: »

Defiler + viper...

I thought of the same combo for my stamina nightblade, (who's already wearing the viper set), as soon as I saw the stats for Defiler. Those 2 sets with 50 - 60 CPs pumped into the defile passive, good times for gankers.

Drishtan

They need to add the line Can on be used only dungeon and trial mobs and problem fixed...

Marabornwingrion

LeifErickson wrote: »

For those who have played on the PTS or fought in battlegrounds against opponents wearing proc sets, you will know how powerful these now are. Everyone knows why they are so good and why they will be even better next patch, but if nothing is done to solve the issue, proc sets are going to be very bad news. Really the only solution I see that would completely solve the issue is to just straight up have proc sets not work in pvp. If not that, something needs to be done or next patch may be even worse than this patch.

I haven't played in Battlegrounds and I don't know why they will be so powerful. They already were nerfed so they can't ctit anymore. Can someone explain please?

Qbiken

They´ve been nerfed so much.Stop complaining just because players find new "metas" or old ones

Minalan

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Agreed. Stamblade with proc sets will be so OP

To offset that some, nightblades already lost additional damage on attacking out of stealth.

I'll miss that...

Strider_Roshin

Astrid_V wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

For those who have played on the PTS or fought in battlegrounds against opponents wearing proc sets, you will know how powerful these now are. Everyone knows why they are so good and why they will be even better next patch, but if nothing is done to solve the issue, proc sets are going to be very bad news. Really the only solution I see that would completely solve the issue is to just straight up have proc sets not work in pvp. If not that, something needs to be done or next patch may be even worse than this patch.

I haven't played in Battlegrounds and I don't know why they will be so powerful. They already were nerfed so they can't ctit anymore. Can someone explain please?

CP regulates them with the resistances. Defense passives are stronger than the offense ones. For example say due to CP your damage is increased from 100 to 125, well someone that has 20% mitigation from CP will only take 100 damage. Meaning even though you invested way more into your damaging passives (25% damage increase) the person who only invested enough to get 20% will counter your 25%. In non CP you'll take the full 100 damage. This is why being able to double dip, or even triple double from CP can potentially make you weaker than the person who's build revolves around one CS passive.

Strider_Roshin

Minalan wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Agreed. Stamblade with proc sets will be so OP

To offset that some, nightblades already lost additional damage on attacking out of stealth.

I'll miss that...

Good riddance, now we might actually get a buff outside of stealth.

Moglijuana

Astrid_V wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

For those who have played on the PTS or fought in battlegrounds against opponents wearing proc sets, you will know how powerful these now are. Everyone knows why they are so good and why they will be even better next patch, but if nothing is done to solve the issue, proc sets are going to be very bad news. Really the only solution I see that would completely solve the issue is to just straight up have proc sets not work in pvp. If not that, something needs to be done or next patch may be even worse than this patch.

I haven't played in Battlegrounds and I don't know why they will be so powerful. They already were nerfed so they can't ctit anymore. Can someone explain please?

In no cp your stats are already limited as is. Everyone has lower crit/health/stam/mag etc. A proc set like viper basically becomes extremely powerful because it does two main things.


1) It grants FREE GUARANTEED damage every time it procs (Viper has CD of 4 seconds) in a campaign where damage is already pretty limited as well as the resources needed to do said damage. There is absolutely no downside to an offensive player getting guaranteed damage especially when it costs them nothing to do said damage.

2) So while the free damage comes at no cost from the attacker, the defending player is essentially doubling their resource usage to simply try and outheal/outshield that guaranteed free damage. So while one player is skill-lessly whacking away getting absurd amounts of damage the other is "skillfuly" trying to simply stay alive burning most of their resources in the process.

TL;DR: GUARANTEED FREE DAMAGE is never good for any pvp game. Especially in a game mode where damage is meant to be toned down in the first place. But that's just my opinion.

Drishtan

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

For those who have played on the PTS or fought in battlegrounds against opponents wearing proc sets, you will know how powerful these now are. Everyone knows why they are so good and why they will be even better next patch, but if nothing is done to solve the issue, proc sets are going to be very bad news. Really the only solution I see that would completely solve the issue is to just straight up have proc sets not work in pvp. If not that, something needs to be done or next patch may be even worse than this patch.

I haven't played in Battlegrounds and I don't know why they will be so powerful. They already were nerfed so they can't ctit anymore. Can someone explain please?

CP regulates them with the resistances. Defense passives are stronger than the offense ones. For example say due to CP your damage is increased from 100 to 125, well someone that has 20% mitigation from CP will only take 100 damage. Meaning even though you invested way more into your damaging passives (25% damage increase) the person who only invested enough to get 20% will counter your 25%. In non CP you'll take the full 100 damage. This is why being able to double dip, or even triple double from CP can potentially make you weaker than the person who's build revolves around one CS passive.

BATTLE GROUNDS ARE NO CP???? HOW IS CP GOING TO BALANCE THEM????

Drishtan

Moglijuana wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

For those who have played on the PTS or fought in battlegrounds against opponents wearing proc sets, you will know how powerful these now are. Everyone knows why they are so good and why they will be even better next patch, but if nothing is done to solve the issue, proc sets are going to be very bad news. Really the only solution I see that would completely solve the issue is to just straight up have proc sets not work in pvp. If not that, something needs to be done or next patch may be even worse than this patch.

I haven't played in Battlegrounds and I don't know why they will be so powerful. They already were nerfed so they can't ctit anymore. Can someone explain please?

In no cp your stats are already limited as is. Everyone has lower crit/health/stam/mag etc. A proc set like viper basically becomes extremely powerful because it does two main things.


1) It grants FREE damage every time it procs (Viper has CD of 4 seconds) in a campaign where damage is already pretty limited as well as the resources needed to do damage. There is absolutely no downside to an offensive player getting free damage especially when it costs them nothing to do said damage.

2) So while the free damage comes at no cost from the attacker, the defending player is essentially doubling their resource usage to simply try and outheal/outshield that guaranteed free damage. So while one player is skill-lessly whacking away getting absurd amounts of damage the other is "skillfuly" trying to simply stay alive.

TL;DR: GUARANTEED FREE DAMAGE is never good for any pvp game. But that's just my opinion.

Yes this!!! Also these proc sets should already be on a 10 sec cooldown to be in line with their old destructive mage set that had a 10 sec cooldown.

Strider_Roshin

Drishtan wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

For those who have played on the PTS or fought in battlegrounds against opponents wearing proc sets, you will know how powerful these now are. Everyone knows why they are so good and why they will be even better next patch, but if nothing is done to solve the issue, proc sets are going to be very bad news. Really the only solution I see that would completely solve the issue is to just straight up have proc sets not work in pvp. If not that, something needs to be done or next patch may be even worse than this patch.

I haven't played in Battlegrounds and I don't know why they will be so powerful. They already were nerfed so they can't ctit anymore. Can someone explain please?

CP regulates them with the resistances. Defense passives are stronger than the offense ones. For example say due to CP your damage is increased from 100 to 125, well someone that has 20% mitigation from CP will only take 100 damage. Meaning even though you invested way more into your damaging passives (25% damage increase) the person who only invested enough to get 20% will counter your 25%. In non CP you'll take the full 100 damage. This is why being able to double dip, or even triple double from CP can potentially make you weaker than the person who's build revolves around one CS passive.

BATTLE GROUNDS ARE NO CP???? HOW IS CP GOING TO BALANCE THEM????

I'm sorry, I won't answer a question that was asked in all caps like an emotional toddler. Try again.

Koolio

Drishtan wrote: »

They need to add the line Can on be used only dungeon and trial mobs and problem fixed...

Vicious Death. A set only from PVP that procs damage only against players that can't be used in PVP lulz.

Qbiken

Koolio wrote: »

Drishtan wrote: »

They need to add the line Can on be used only dungeon and trial mobs and problem fixed...

Sure if they bring back the abiity for procset to crit in PvE then I´m all for.

Minalan

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Agreed. Stamblade with proc sets will be so OP

To offset that some, nightblades already lost additional damage on attacking out of stealth.

I'll miss that...

Good riddance, now we might actually get a buff outside of stealth.

Buff NB? You're hilarious.

Like that will ever happen.

Joy_Division

Anything balanced for CP will be used and abused in no CP PvP.

Because ZoS things there is a "single unifying mechanics" that govern PvP.

Free damage with less resources is too good to pass up.

LeifErickson

@Astrid_V

I updated the OP. It does answer your question, but it also goes into why proc sets are strong beyond what's happening next patch. With the sustain changes and what not, proc sets are going to be better, but there are other components to it as well.

NightbladeMechanics

The edit to the OP is a thorough review of the core issue with proc sets, implosion, burning light, and invisible damage sources in general.

I would love to have seen Viper reworked, perhaps given the Hunger proc from the new Defiler set instead of making an all new set, Tremor given a delay, Valkyn made blockable, implosion and burning light reworked...the list goes on.

actosh

All u need is a global procset cooldown and each proc should cost u ressources.

wimhwimladimf

PvP shouldnt have so much RNG, because it reduces impact of player skill. If ZOS really wants to make more proc sets, at least make them high risk -> high reward instead of low risk & spray and pray.

Having to deal with critical hits some various ability proc passives/actives is already enough, we dont need more RNG in PvP.

Jitterbug

I'm worried about the middle east

FlyLionel

Qbiken wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

Drishtan wrote: »

They need to add the line Can on be used only dungeon and trial mobs and problem fixed...

Sure if they bring back the abiity for procset to crit in PvE then I´m all for.

Agreed they could have just stopped crit proc sets for PVP in battlespirit? Now PVE got nerfed(staminas best undaunted piece velidreth slapped, and skoria as well). Sometimes I wonder.

Asgari

Proc set meta for sure for morrowind. for sure.

Gilvoth

proc sets are bad.
eso is allow them.