**A matter of class balances**

Nelson_Rebel

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You either make every class comparable (within limits) to one another on all aspects (DPS, heals, survivability) , or you let the classes each have their defining strengths and weaknesses.

Same with classes, races, mag vs stam, melee vs ranged, and even roles to an extent.

Regarding staves as basically the only magicka option, I'm sure we'd love to see a more even split between magicka based weapon opportunities and stamina based weapon opportunities.

DPS is not the only deciding factor in a build's viability.

The other thing to do would be to compare results with an sampling or players, not just going by the high end #'s.

Comparing a Ferrari and a Lamborghini on a Forumla One track may show the top differences, but they're hardly going to show the typical lap time and top speed for the average person behind the wheel, even in the same vehicle.

^^ This is a big part of the problem with trying to balance.

You see this is a favorable outlook and in theory is nice.

This still doesn't address the FACT stamina on any dps spec isn't welcomed into trials.


Where is variety and dps equality here?

Potenza

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Potenza wrote: »

At every update when we asked to buff sorcs - Zos said "sorcs are fine".

So there you have it - Sorcs are fine and leave them alone.

Do you need buffs to beat a sorc? You need to l2p.

Edit: And if you don't believe me that you need to learn to play, ask all the NB's, and DK's that 2 shot my magsorc dead, and the templars that burn me down with the beam. We magsorcs are far from over the top. Yea im not the best sorc but I am good and this still happens because they know how to kill a sorc.

Again another l2p basic comment.


We are discussing end game trials.

But if you are being 2 shotted on a mag sorc,
I'm sorry but you are just plain bad.

I am applying this to PvP which you obviously know nothing about if you think a magsorc cant be 2 shotted from stealth.

STEVIL

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You either make every class comparable (within limits) to one another on all aspects (DPS, heals, survivability) , or you let the classes each have their defining strengths and weaknesses.

Same with classes, races, mag vs stam, melee vs ranged, and even roles to an extent.

Regarding staves as basically the only magicka option, I'm sure we'd love to see a more even split between magicka based weapon opportunities and stamina based weapon opportunities.

DPS is not the only deciding factor in a build's viability.

The other thing to do would be to compare results with an sampling or players, not just going by the high end #'s.

Comparing a Ferrari and a Lamborghini on a Forumla One track may show the top differences, but they're hardly going to show the typical lap time and top speed for the average person behind the wheel, even in the same vehicle.

^^ This is a big part of the problem with trying to balance.

You see this is a favorable outlook and in theory is nice.

This still doesn't address the FACT stamina on any dps spec isn't welcomed into trials.


Where is variety and dps equality here?

Rules wont stop people from being biased.
Rules wont stop people from deciding to toss out those they dont want.
At least not the kinds of rules being discussed here.

You want equal participation in trials/groups and see that as balance?

here you go

All trials groups of 12 must:

1. have 2 of each class.
2. have an equal number of characters with max stam as they have max stamina as they have max health.
3. have no more than six of the characters in any trial slotting skills from any given weapon skill line.

See - instant "balance" if one views participation as balance - every weapon type and every class and every attribute will be represented in good numbers in any trial.. in every trial.

(note this is not entirely an insane concept - its not unlike many competitive games/sports where standardizing the "equipment" is done so that the outcomes are more determined by player skill in play than such choices made beforehand. There is a lot of reason that choices within limits can yield better results than wide open choices.)

There you go.

Every trial leader will have 2 or more of each class and an even mix of health vs stam vs mag and a diversity of weapons.

is the difference between "players choose to include" and "balance" more visible now?

zaria

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Nerf everybody so that max DPS possible is 10k and make the game really challenging.

I recognize that you are being snarky and sarcastic, and while normally I enjoy this, I would ask you refrain please. This has become a problem in the game on all levels.

No one class should have absolute domination of what is allowed into these activities. I'm not trying to nerf your sorc. I would prefer to buff the classes, or change how mechanics allow damage to be applied to not only favor Ranged DPS

Sorcerer is a bit better on single target dps with pet, without pet DK is top, diferences here is around 1K and max dps is a bit above 40k, depending an bit on elle drain is provided, 5% of 40K is 2K. and an 5% difference is extremely balanced. Templar is an bit behind and NB is weakest however bis setup is not much more than 10%. Gear is more important than class.

Now after the genial nerfs in Morrowind sorcerer might well pull ahead as class got no nerfs and it has good sustain.
Warden is obviously not nerfed either so its also strong. Templar dps should also be decent.

STEVIL

and on this...

"Where is variety and dps equality here?"

What about high health dps? Are rules to be changed so that they also to be "welcome" as or is " the FACT stamina health on any dps spec isn't welcomed into trial" acceptable?

What about stamina healers? Are rules to be changed so that they also to be "welcome" as or is " the FACT stamina or health focus on any healer spec isn't welcomed into trial" acceptable?

Pick a small enough closet and you will find uneven distribution and you can call that imbalance if you view it as the same - but that still does not mean the mansion is.

One of the drawers in my dresser has more socks than brief, another has more t-shirts than socks, another has more briefs than sex toys and if i divide those evenly between all the drawers thats not gonna make the dresser better.

Nelson_Rebel

STEVIL wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You either make every class comparable (within limits) to one another on all aspects (DPS, heals, survivability) , or you let the classes each have their defining strengths and weaknesses.

Same with classes, races, mag vs stam, melee vs ranged, and even roles to an extent.

Regarding staves as basically the only magicka option, I'm sure we'd love to see a more even split between magicka based weapon opportunities and stamina based weapon opportunities.

DPS is not the only deciding factor in a build's viability.

The other thing to do would be to compare results with an sampling or players, not just going by the high end #'s.

Comparing a Ferrari and a Lamborghini on a Forumla One track may show the top differences, but they're hardly going to show the typical lap time and top speed for the average person behind the wheel, even in the same vehicle.

^^ This is a big part of the problem with trying to balance.

You see this is a favorable outlook and in theory is nice.

This still doesn't address the FACT stamina on any dps spec isn't welcomed into trials.


Where is variety and dps equality here?

Rules wont stop people from being biased.
Rules wont stop people from deciding to toss out those they dont want.
At least not the kinds of rules being discussed here.

You want equal participation in trials/groups and see that as balance?

here you go

All trials groups of 12 must:

1. have 2 of each class.
2. have an equal number of characters with max stam as they have max stamina as they have max health.
3. have no more than six of the characters in any trial slotting skills from any given weapon skill line.

See - instant "balance" if one views participation as balance - every weapon type and every class and every attribute will be represented in good numbers in any trial.. in every trial.

(note this is not entirely an insane concept - its not unlike many competitive games/sports where standardizing the "equipment" is done so that the outcomes are more determined by player skill in play than such choices made beforehand. There is a lot of reason that choices within limits can yield better results than wide open choices.)

There you go.

Every trial leader will have 2 or more of each class and an even mix of health vs stam vs mag and a diversity of weapons.

is the difference between "players choose to include" and "balance" more visible now?

This is one way to do it, and I'm actually not entirely against it.

However while these "rules" would be a solid way to eliminate the exclusion of stamm DD's and every other magic DD

It doesn't solve the issue of Mechanics being blatantly favoring magic distance DD's.

Again I'm not in favor of nerfing Sorcs, which is where i think you are feeling threatened on. I'm in
favor of alternative ways of allowing dps to be applied in the these areas

Nelson_Rebel

STEVIL wrote: »

and on this...

"Where is variety and dps equality here?"

What about high health dps? Are rules to be changed so that they also to be "welcome" as or is " the FACT stamina health on any dps spec isn't welcomed into trial" acceptable?

What about stamina healers? Are rules to be changed so that they also to be "welcome" as or is " the FACT stamina or health focus on any healer spec isn't welcomed into trial" acceptable?

Pick a small enough closet and you will find uneven distribution and you can call that imbalance if you view it as the same - but that still does not mean the mansion is.

Now this is just getting far off the beaten path and quite ridiculous

These have been established principals for healing. And that is a separate issue


Stay on topic please. The allegory and metaphors while are witty are still not applicable to our current conversation.

You can try and make an argument NOW for why Sorcs should stay at the top slot simply because "other classes are best healers and tanks" but that is getting thrown out the window in morrowind.

The DPS plight has been an ongoing issue since one tamriel.

Stamina users are constantly plagued by being rejected from participating in almost any serious trial run to get legitimate completions. And in doing so had effectively Halved the playerbase into "haves" and "have nots" simply because they aren't running around with staves like everyone else.

You can't seriously compare that and call it "ok"

NecroEnzo

Potenza wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Potenza wrote: »

At every update when we asked to buff sorcs - Zos said "sorcs are fine".

So there you have it - Sorcs are fine and leave them alone.

Do you need buffs to beat a sorc? You need to l2p.

Edit: And if you don't believe me that you need to learn to play, ask all the NB's, and DK's that 2 shot my magsorc dead, and the templars that burn me down with the beam. We magsorcs are far from over the top. Yea im not the best sorc but I am good and this still happens because they know how to kill a sorc.

Again another l2p basic comment.


We are discussing end game trials.

But if you are being 2 shotted on a mag sorc,
I'm sorry but you are just plain bad.

I am applying this to PvP which you obviously know nothing about if you think a magsorc cant be 2 shotted from stealth.

Radiant magelight, run it, or get 1 shot by nightblade with a 2her. Happens to DKs, Templars (does anyone even do blazeplar anymore?), everyone, and you might be getting beat by these guys... if they still play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpt9LBsS7lU

EleonoraCrendraven

Since every player has his/her own favourite class every class should be strong and fun to play. Including trials/ endgame content.

STEVIL

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You either make every class comparable (within limits) to one another on all aspects (DPS, heals, survivability) , or you let the classes each have their defining strengths and weaknesses.

Same with classes, races, mag vs stam, melee vs ranged, and even roles to an extent.

Regarding staves as basically the only magicka option, I'm sure we'd love to see a more even split between magicka based weapon opportunities and stamina based weapon opportunities.

DPS is not the only deciding factor in a build's viability.

The other thing to do would be to compare results with an sampling or players, not just going by the high end #'s.

Comparing a Ferrari and a Lamborghini on a Forumla One track may show the top differences, but they're hardly going to show the typical lap time and top speed for the average person behind the wheel, even in the same vehicle.

^^ This is a big part of the problem with trying to balance.

You see this is a favorable outlook and in theory is nice.

This still doesn't address the FACT stamina on any dps spec isn't welcomed into trials.


Where is variety and dps equality here?

Rules wont stop people from being biased.
Rules wont stop people from deciding to toss out those they dont want.
At least not the kinds of rules being discussed here.

You want equal participation in trials/groups and see that as balance?

here you go

All trials groups of 12 must:

1. have 2 of each class.
2. have an equal number of characters with max stam as they have max stamina as they have max health.
3. have no more than six of the characters in any trial slotting skills from any given weapon skill line.

See - instant "balance" if one views participation as balance - every weapon type and every class and every attribute will be represented in good numbers in any trial.. in every trial.

(note this is not entirely an insane concept - its not unlike many competitive games/sports where standardizing the "equipment" is done so that the outcomes are more determined by player skill in play than such choices made beforehand. There is a lot of reason that choices within limits can yield better results than wide open choices.)

There you go.

Every trial leader will have 2 or more of each class and an even mix of health vs stam vs mag and a diversity of weapons.

is the difference between "players choose to include" and "balance" more visible now?

This is one way to do it, and I'm actually not entirely against it.

However while these "rules" would be a solid way to eliminate the exclusion of stamm DD's and every other magic DD

It doesn't solve the issue of Mechanics being blatantly favoring magic distance DD's.

Again I'm not in favor of nerfing Sorcs, which is where i think you are feeling threatened on. I'm in
favor of alternative ways of allowing dps to be applied in the these areas

The place where i feel threatened is a drive for a certain type of analysis and its ability to KILL a game's enjoyment.

the type of analysis is the closet mentality.

if i can look at some small closet of play and perceive an imbalance in participation then i can use that as justification to get rules changed to even up participation.

Apply this to every closet and every possible participant and the result is every closet is the same and every particpant is the same just with all sorts of different labels that dont matter.

You are literally narrowing your field down to group/trial top-tier onlt dps role only and stamina vs magica only or more to the point sorc maybe but then back off kinda.

that is a very small closet.

let me challenge you on whether stamina vs magica should be equal at every role in that closet? that seems to be your underlying premise right - magica beats stamina in the group/trial dps role?

"It doesn't solve the issue of Mechanics being blatantly favoring magic distance DD's. " (even smaller closet though since you divided your closets by distance vs ranged)

Where do you stand on the plight of stamina healer not being welcome in trial/groups?

Do you feel stamina healers are getting welcomed more or less often than stamina dps are into those events?

Do the numbers support that stamina dps participation in trial is better or worse than stamina healers in trials?

if stamina healers in trials are worse off than stamina dps in trials what should we do to address the issue? Shouldn't that be addressed first?

i personally think that stamina healers are much more oppressed by the player base than stamina dps are.

i cannot remember seeing a stamina healer in play in overland that much with casual groups or in dungeaons or even normal tier pledges - where i can see stamina dps frequently.

Are your experiences or observations similar or different as far a stamina healers?

Wolfenbelle

OP, after testing Warden last night, I do not think I am violating the NDA by saying Warden will be a great healer, possibly a good to great tank, but not a strong DPS without relying on weapons and non-class skills.

I seriously dislike continual nerfs in search of class balance, and especially the balances for PVP that negatively affect PVE play. So I would rather see improvements to the existing classes, but ZOS has a different point of view, obviously.

Nelson_Rebel

STEVIL wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You either make every class comparable (within limits) to one another on all aspects (DPS, heals, survivability) , or you let the classes each have their defining strengths and weaknesses.

Same with classes, races, mag vs stam, melee vs ranged, and even roles to an extent.

Regarding staves as basically the only magicka option, I'm sure we'd love to see a more even split between magicka based weapon opportunities and stamina based weapon opportunities.

DPS is not the only deciding factor in a build's viability.

The other thing to do would be to compare results with an sampling or players, not just going by the high end #'s.

Comparing a Ferrari and a Lamborghini on a Forumla One track may show the top differences, but they're hardly going to show the typical lap time and top speed for the average person behind the wheel, even in the same vehicle.

^^ This is a big part of the problem with trying to balance.

You see this is a favorable outlook and in theory is nice.

This still doesn't address the FACT stamina on any dps spec isn't welcomed into trials.


Where is variety and dps equality here?

Rules wont stop people from being biased.
Rules wont stop people from deciding to toss out those they dont want.
At least not the kinds of rules being discussed here.

You want equal participation in trials/groups and see that as balance?

here you go

All trials groups of 12 must:

1. have 2 of each class.
2. have an equal number of characters with max stam as they have max stamina as they have max health.
3. have no more than six of the characters in any trial slotting skills from any given weapon skill line.

See - instant "balance" if one views participation as balance - every weapon type and every class and every attribute will be represented in good numbers in any trial.. in every trial.

(note this is not entirely an insane concept - its not unlike many competitive games/sports where standardizing the "equipment" is done so that the outcomes are more determined by player skill in play than such choices made beforehand. There is a lot of reason that choices within limits can yield better results than wide open choices.)

There you go.

Every trial leader will have 2 or more of each class and an even mix of health vs stam vs mag and a diversity of weapons.

is the difference between "players choose to include" and "balance" more visible now?

This is one way to do it, and I'm actually not entirely against it.

However while these "rules" would be a solid way to eliminate the exclusion of stamm DD's and every other magic DD

It doesn't solve the issue of Mechanics being blatantly favoring magic distance DD's.

Again I'm not in favor of nerfing Sorcs, which is where i think you are feeling threatened on. I'm in
favor of alternative ways of allowing dps to be applied in the these areas

The place where i feel threatened is a drive for a certain type of analysis and its ability to KILL a game's enjoyment.

the type of analysis is the closet mentality.

if i can look at some small closet of play and perceive an imbalance in participation then i can use that as justification to get rules changed to even up participation.

Apply this to every closet and every possible participant and the result is every closet is the same and every particpant is the same just with all sorts of different labels that dont matter.

You are literally narrowing your field down to group/trial top-tier onlt dps role only and stamina vs magica only or more to the point sorc maybe but then back off kinda.

that is a very small closet.

let me challenge you on whether stamina vs magica should be equal at every role in that closet? that seems to be your underlying premise right - magica beats stamina in the group/trial dps role?

"It doesn't solve the issue of Mechanics being blatantly favoring magic distance DD's. " (even smaller closet though since you divided your closets by distance vs ranged)

Where do you stand on the plight of stamina healer not being welcome in trial/groups?

Do you feel stamina healers are getting welcomed more or less often than stamina dps are into those events?

Do the numbers support that stamina dps participation in trial is better or worse than stamina healers in trials?

if stamina healers in trials are worse off than stamina dps in trials what should we do to address the issue? Shouldn't that be addressed first?

i personally think that stamina healers are much more oppressed by the player base than stamina dps are.

i cannot remember seeing a stamina healer in play in overland that much with casual groups or in dungeaons or even normal tier pledges - where i can see stamina dps frequently.

Are your experiences or observations similar or different as far a stamina healers?

l'll be brief. I already addressed this here

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

and on this...

"Where is variety and dps equality here?"

What about high health dps? Are rules to be changed so that they also to be "welcome" as or is " the FACT stamina health on any dps spec isn't welcomed into trial" acceptable?

What about stamina healers? Are rules to be changed so that they also to be "welcome" as or is " the FACT stamina or health focus on any healer spec isn't welcomed into trial" acceptable?

Pick a small enough closet and you will find uneven distribution and you can call that imbalance if you view it as the same - but that still does not mean the mansion is.

Now this is just getting far off the beaten path and quite ridiculous

These have been established principals for healing. And that is a separate issue


Stay on topic please. The allegory and metaphors while are witty are still not applicable to our current conversation.

You can try and make an argument NOW for why Sorcs should stay at the top slot simply because "other classes are best healers and tanks" but that is getting thrown out the window in morrowind.

The DPS plight has been an ongoing issue since one tamriel.

Stamina users are constantly plagued by being rejected from participating in almost any serious trial run to get legitimate completions. And in doing so had effectively Halved the playerbase into "haves" and "have nots" simply because they aren't running around with staves like everyone else.

You can't seriously compare that and call it "ok"

Nelson_Rebel

Wolfenbelle wrote: »

OP, after testing Warden last night, I do not think I am violating the NDA by saying Warden will be a great healer, possibly a good to great tank, but not a strong DPS without relying on weapons and non-class skills.

I seriously dislike continual nerfs in search of class balance, and especially the balances for PVP that negatively affect PVE play. So I would rather see improvements to the existing classes, but ZOS has a different point of view, obviously.

This is the same for other classes as well.


So we have variety in healers and tanks. Now all we need is variety in our current "only magic dps sorcerers" meta which will be worse if the morrowind public server patch notes are to go live

Emmagoldman

I think in pve it needs a nerf, but lets see how this patch wotks out. I do main pvp and pve mag sorc. With these suggestions i i state small because ideally, zos would make small changes and change once a month.

Mag isnt as powerful in every class (pvp) Stamsorc is more survivable in pvp the mag, stam blade>magblade, magplar > stamplar, stamdk > magdk

However, they all have different roles. Id rather have a magdk when dealing with zergs.

Remember, trash mobs dont purge or get out of aoe...

Ideas:
Pve: slight nerf to liquid lightning and blockade and slight cost increase. I do mean slight.

Id like to see if the pet dies, the player takes dmg or sometime of hit to mag.

Bow: increase duration of arrow hail and increase range (of aoe) by 1m. Saves stam, and hits more trash

Dual wield: steel tornado. Slight cost reduction, increase range by 1. 1 seems stupid but its for killing trash right?

Hail, Caltrop is thrown (now buffed), gap closer, tornado or whatever.

Pvp: lets see next patch. A lot of qq ftom people who started playing the last year with proc meta. Now its not as strong and they dont comprehend that it was their sets that were good and not them.

I would like pirate helm to have minor debuff (reduction of dmg by 15%) when it procs

Nelson_Rebel

acw37162 wrote: »

Both magica Dk's and magica Templars have better single target DPS. Sorcs have better AOE DPS.

This is entirely false, the average pet sorcs in most trials are putting out upwards of 40k Dps

The only templar or Dk I have ever seen
do near that is Alcast or RNC


And they are exceptional players.


*correction, RNC WAS an exceptional player*

Nelson_Rebel

Emmagoldman wrote: »

I think in pve it needs a nerf, but lets see how this patch wotks out. I do main pvp and pve mag sorc. With these suggestions i i state small because ideally, zos would make small changes and change once a month.

Mag isnt as powerful in every class (pvp) Stamsorc is more survivable in pvp the mag, stam blade>magblade, magplar > stamplar, stamdk > magdk

However, they all have different roles. Id rather have a magdk when dealing with zergs.

Remember, trash mobs dont purge or get out of aoe...

Ideas:
Pve: slight nerf to liquid lightning and blockade and slight cost increase. I do mean slight.

Id like to see if the pet dies, the player takes dmg or sometime of hit to mag.

Bow: increase duration of arrow hail and increase range (of aoe) by 1m. Saves stam, and hits more trash

Dual wield: steel tornado. Slight cost reduction, increase range by 1. 1 seems stupid but its for killing trash right?

Hail, Caltrop is thrown (now buffed), gap closer, tornado or whatever.

Pvp: lets see next patch. A lot of qq ftom people who started playing the last year with proc meta. Now its not as strong and they dont comprehend that it was their sets that were good and not them.

I would like pirate helm to have minor debuff (reduction of dmg by 15%) when it procs

I can get behind these changes

But I still believe they need to help even the playing field when it comes to forms of DPS. Just as mechanics right now almost always make close range DPS almost suicide, they should make it dangerous for distance DD's as well to incentivize having an even amount of Range and Close range where stamina DD's can actually be useful

STEVIL

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You either make every class comparable (within limits) to one another on all aspects (DPS, heals, survivability) , or you let the classes each have their defining strengths and weaknesses.

Same with classes, races, mag vs stam, melee vs ranged, and even roles to an extent.

Regarding staves as basically the only magicka option, I'm sure we'd love to see a more even split between magicka based weapon opportunities and stamina based weapon opportunities.

DPS is not the only deciding factor in a build's viability.

The other thing to do would be to compare results with an sampling or players, not just going by the high end #'s.

Comparing a Ferrari and a Lamborghini on a Forumla One track may show the top differences, but they're hardly going to show the typical lap time and top speed for the average person behind the wheel, even in the same vehicle.

^^ This is a big part of the problem with trying to balance.

You see this is a favorable outlook and in theory is nice.

This still doesn't address the FACT stamina on any dps spec isn't welcomed into trials.


Where is variety and dps equality here?

Rules wont stop people from being biased.
Rules wont stop people from deciding to toss out those they dont want.
At least not the kinds of rules being discussed here.

You want equal participation in trials/groups and see that as balance?

here you go

All trials groups of 12 must:

1. have 2 of each class.
2. have an equal number of characters with max stam as they have max stamina as they have max health.
3. have no more than six of the characters in any trial slotting skills from any given weapon skill line.

See - instant "balance" if one views participation as balance - every weapon type and every class and every attribute will be represented in good numbers in any trial.. in every trial.

(note this is not entirely an insane concept - its not unlike many competitive games/sports where standardizing the "equipment" is done so that the outcomes are more determined by player skill in play than such choices made beforehand. There is a lot of reason that choices within limits can yield better results than wide open choices.)

There you go.

Every trial leader will have 2 or more of each class and an even mix of health vs stam vs mag and a diversity of weapons.

is the difference between "players choose to include" and "balance" more visible now?

This is one way to do it, and I'm actually not entirely against it.

However while these "rules" would be a solid way to eliminate the exclusion of stamm DD's and every other magic DD

It doesn't solve the issue of Mechanics being blatantly favoring magic distance DD's.

Again I'm not in favor of nerfing Sorcs, which is where i think you are feeling threatened on. I'm in
favor of alternative ways of allowing dps to be applied in the these areas

The place where i feel threatened is a drive for a certain type of analysis and its ability to KILL a game's enjoyment.

the type of analysis is the closet mentality.

if i can look at some small closet of play and perceive an imbalance in participation then i can use that as justification to get rules changed to even up participation.

Apply this to every closet and every possible participant and the result is every closet is the same and every particpant is the same just with all sorts of different labels that dont matter.

You are literally narrowing your field down to group/trial top-tier onlt dps role only and stamina vs magica only or more to the point sorc maybe but then back off kinda.

that is a very small closet.

let me challenge you on whether stamina vs magica should be equal at every role in that closet? that seems to be your underlying premise right - magica beats stamina in the group/trial dps role?

"It doesn't solve the issue of Mechanics being blatantly favoring magic distance DD's. " (even smaller closet though since you divided your closets by distance vs ranged)

Where do you stand on the plight of stamina healer not being welcome in trial/groups?

Do you feel stamina healers are getting welcomed more or less often than stamina dps are into those events?

Do the numbers support that stamina dps participation in trial is better or worse than stamina healers in trials?

if stamina healers in trials are worse off than stamina dps in trials what should we do to address the issue? Shouldn't that be addressed first?

i personally think that stamina healers are much more oppressed by the player base than stamina dps are.

i cannot remember seeing a stamina healer in play in overland that much with casual groups or in dungeaons or even normal tier pledges - where i can see stamina dps frequently.

Are your experiences or observations similar or different as far a stamina healers?

l'll be brief. I already addressed this here

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

and on this...

"Where is variety and dps equality here?"

What about high health dps? Are rules to be changed so that they also to be "welcome" as or is " the FACT stamina health on any dps spec isn't welcomed into trial" acceptable?

What about stamina healers? Are rules to be changed so that they also to be "welcome" as or is " the FACT stamina or health focus on any healer spec isn't welcomed into trial" acceptable?

Pick a small enough closet and you will find uneven distribution and you can call that imbalance if you view it as the same - but that still does not mean the mansion is.

Now this is just getting far off the beaten path and quite ridiculous

These have been established principals for healing. And that is a separate issue


Stay on topic please. The allegory and metaphors while are witty are still not applicable to our current conversation.

You can try and make an argument NOW for why Sorcs should stay at the top slot simply because "other classes are best healers and tanks" but that is getting thrown out the window in morrowind.

The DPS plight has been an ongoing issue since one tamriel.

Stamina users are constantly plagued by being rejected from participating in almost any serious trial run to get legitimate completions. And in doing so had effectively Halved the playerbase into "haves" and "have nots" simply because they aren't running around with staves like everyone else.

You can't seriously compare that and call it "ok"

I weould use the term responding to it if i were generous and dismissing it if i were not but if you do not believe that anyone else being shut out of a closet (stamina healers) matters then why should we believe you when it comes to whether stamina dps being shut out of that closet matters?

And BTW, where is your proof that half the player based runs stamina dps? You just claimed its effectively halved the player base.

Nelson_Rebel

STEVIL wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You either make every class comparable (within limits) to one another on all aspects (DPS, heals, survivability) , or you let the classes each have their defining strengths and weaknesses.

Same with classes, races, mag vs stam, melee vs ranged, and even roles to an extent.

Regarding staves as basically the only magicka option, I'm sure we'd love to see a more even split between magicka based weapon opportunities and stamina based weapon opportunities.

DPS is not the only deciding factor in a build's viability.

The other thing to do would be to compare results with an sampling or players, not just going by the high end #'s.

Comparing a Ferrari and a Lamborghini on a Forumla One track may show the top differences, but they're hardly going to show the typical lap time and top speed for the average person behind the wheel, even in the same vehicle.

^^ This is a big part of the problem with trying to balance.

You see this is a favorable outlook and in theory is nice.

This still doesn't address the FACT stamina on any dps spec isn't welcomed into trials.


Where is variety and dps equality here?

Rules wont stop people from being biased.
Rules wont stop people from deciding to toss out those they dont want.
At least not the kinds of rules being discussed here.

You want equal participation in trials/groups and see that as balance?

here you go

All trials groups of 12 must:

1. have 2 of each class.
2. have an equal number of characters with max stam as they have max stamina as they have max health.
3. have no more than six of the characters in any trial slotting skills from any given weapon skill line.

See - instant "balance" if one views participation as balance - every weapon type and every class and every attribute will be represented in good numbers in any trial.. in every trial.

(note this is not entirely an insane concept - its not unlike many competitive games/sports where standardizing the "equipment" is done so that the outcomes are more determined by player skill in play than such choices made beforehand. There is a lot of reason that choices within limits can yield better results than wide open choices.)

There you go.

Every trial leader will have 2 or more of each class and an even mix of health vs stam vs mag and a diversity of weapons.

is the difference between "players choose to include" and "balance" more visible now?

This is one way to do it, and I'm actually not entirely against it.

However while these "rules" would be a solid way to eliminate the exclusion of stamm DD's and every other magic DD

It doesn't solve the issue of Mechanics being blatantly favoring magic distance DD's.

Again I'm not in favor of nerfing Sorcs, which is where i think you are feeling threatened on. I'm in
favor of alternative ways of allowing dps to be applied in the these areas

The place where i feel threatened is a drive for a certain type of analysis and its ability to KILL a game's enjoyment.

the type of analysis is the closet mentality.

if i can look at some small closet of play and perceive an imbalance in participation then i can use that as justification to get rules changed to even up participation.

Apply this to every closet and every possible participant and the result is every closet is the same and every particpant is the same just with all sorts of different labels that dont matter.

You are literally narrowing your field down to group/trial top-tier onlt dps role only and stamina vs magica only or more to the point sorc maybe but then back off kinda.

that is a very small closet.

let me challenge you on whether stamina vs magica should be equal at every role in that closet? that seems to be your underlying premise right - magica beats stamina in the group/trial dps role?

"It doesn't solve the issue of Mechanics being blatantly favoring magic distance DD's. " (even smaller closet though since you divided your closets by distance vs ranged)

Where do you stand on the plight of stamina healer not being welcome in trial/groups?

Do you feel stamina healers are getting welcomed more or less often than stamina dps are into those events?

Do the numbers support that stamina dps participation in trial is better or worse than stamina healers in trials?

if stamina healers in trials are worse off than stamina dps in trials what should we do to address the issue? Shouldn't that be addressed first?

i personally think that stamina healers are much more oppressed by the player base than stamina dps are.

i cannot remember seeing a stamina healer in play in overland that much with casual groups or in dungeaons or even normal tier pledges - where i can see stamina dps frequently.

Are your experiences or observations similar or different as far a stamina healers?

l'll be brief. I already addressed this here

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

and on this...

"Where is variety and dps equality here?"

What about high health dps? Are rules to be changed so that they also to be "welcome" as or is " the FACT stamina health on any dps spec isn't welcomed into trial" acceptable?

What about stamina healers? Are rules to be changed so that they also to be "welcome" as or is " the FACT stamina or health focus on any healer spec isn't welcomed into trial" acceptable?

Pick a small enough closet and you will find uneven distribution and you can call that imbalance if you view it as the same - but that still does not mean the mansion is.

Now this is just getting far off the beaten path and quite ridiculous

These have been established principals for healing. And that is a separate issue


Stay on topic please. The allegory and metaphors while are witty are still not applicable to our current conversation.

You can try and make an argument NOW for why Sorcs should stay at the top slot simply because "other classes are best healers and tanks" but that is getting thrown out the window in morrowind.

The DPS plight has been an ongoing issue since one tamriel.

Stamina users are constantly plagued by being rejected from participating in almost any serious trial run to get legitimate completions. And in doing so had effectively Halved the playerbase into "haves" and "have nots" simply because they aren't running around with staves like everyone else.

You can't seriously compare that and call it "ok"

I weould use the term responding to it if i were generous and dismissing it if i were not but if you do not believe that anyone else being shut out of a closet (stamina healers) matters then why should we believe you when it comes to whether stamina dps being shut out of that closet matters?

And BTW, where is your proof that half the player based runs stamina dps? You just claimed its effectively halved the player base.

So you're effectively endorsing not giving a damn about players who play stamina DD's?

The reason addressing stamina healers is useless is because it is not built within game mechanics to be an effective stamina healer. The "restoration line" is and has always been a magic based play.

This is how ZOS built the game.

Now not only do we have ONLY magic healers (if you want to use this silly argument) we now have almost exclusively ONLY magic DD's participating in Vet Trials. And Stamina actually has DPS built into the game and IS supposed to be a competitive playstyle. Where do we see that now? You are trying to play devils advocate when you know DAMN well how dominant Magic is, and specifically mag sorcs.

I can't for the life of me get how you can defend only ONE playstyle of players being able to be viable in this content.

I never said half the playerbase plays stamina, I
said VERBATIM that seperating the stamina player out of end game activities is halving the playerbase into haves and have nots.

You inferred that to meaning only stamina, as I'm including other magic dps as well. And also since you brought it up just go pug vet trials and dungeons once in a while to understand where the plight of players is at. I'm on all three platforms so I have a far broader scope of seeing where everything is at.

Is it 100% accurate? No of course not, but when EVERY SINGLE known trial guild that gets completions (not just leaderboards and score runs) It's ALWAYS comprised of Magic DD's.

*Edited for grammar*

STEVIL

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

So you're effectively endorsing not giving a damn about players who don't play stamina DD's?

The reason addressing stamina healers is useless is because it is not built within game mechanics to be an effective stamina healer. The "restoration line" is and has always been a magic based play.

This is how ZOS built the game.

Now not only do we have ONLY magic healers (if you want to use this silly argument) we now have almost exclusively ONLY magic DD's participating in Vet Trials. And Stamina actually has DPS built into the game and IS supposed to be a competitive playstyle. Where do we see that now? You are trying to play devils advocate when you know DAMN well how dominant Magic is, and specifically mag sorcs.

I can't for the life of me get how you can defend only ONE playstyle of players being able to be viable in this content.

I never said half the playerbase plays stamina, I
said VERBATIM that seperating the stamina player out of end game activities is halving the playerbase into haves and have nots.

You inferred that to meaning only stamina, as I'm including other magic dps as well. And also since you brought it up just go pug vet trials and dungeons once in a while to understand where the plight of players is at. I'm on all three platforms so I have a far broader scope of seeing where everything is at.

Is it 100% accurate? No of course not, but when EVERY SINGLE known trial guild that gets completions (not just leaderboards and score runs) It's ALWAYS comprised of Magic DD's.

First bold - No i did not say anything about "endorsing not giving a damn about players who don't play stamina DD's?"

matter of fact i thought this was about stamina dds being excluded, not about the plight of non-stamina dds. Did you maybe say that backwards?

First italics - So if the game is built so that certain role-class-source-weapon combos are not being accepted by players in a small closet of content then thats ok - unless its stam-dd-trial/group or non-sorc-dd-trial/group?

You keep coming back to class class class... which one would expect given the title of the thread - when really its more about the content than the class in the closet you have chosen to segregate out for you case.

Second bold - Where you say in this context i say in this closet. it is an invalid process to look at smaller and smaller subsets of the whole to find nose count discrepancies and then extrapolate that to being evidence a bigger problem. And again back to class specific at the end.

Second italics - you dont even remain consistent in this sentence here and its following paragraph... separating stamina out is halving the playerbase but then next up you kind of imply that the halves are not stamina taken out but also other mag dps as well? So, its not cutting stamina out that halving the playerbase but a lot of different things resulting in the half and half?

great, if thats the new claim, - show us the 50/50 split numbers you have.

Last bold - are we back to stam v mag in dd role for trial/guild and off sorc v everyone else in trial/group dd now - keeps switching when convenient.

How many of those same guilds trial/group runs also had magica healers?
How many also had health based or stam-health based tanks more than magica-based tanks?

If this thread was titled "**A matter of trial/group mechanics balances between various roles** and the fofus was not so much on the sorc vs other classes in a single role, you would be dealing with the problem.

You know those machines you used to find in grocery stores - coin eaters we called them - where you could throw tons of loose change and it would be sorted into totals and money given out.

Well, since closet doesn't seem to be getting thru, lets pretend you know what these machines are and how they work.

the playerbase is the coins.
the various pieces of content and where applicable the roles within those are the different sized ans shaped openings the coins fall thru.

You are looking at one of the chutes and pointing out there are fewer quarters in this tube than there are nickels. the answer is not reshaping the nickel to match the quarter chute. it will still be a nickel.

more of the more dangerous boss specials tend to be "stand in stupids" often coming out from or dropped at the feet of or moving with" the boss than are of the "endanger things away from the boss more than those up close.

While sometimes mechanics do "negate" magic effects and leave stamina abilities unscathed, these are more rare and also have sometime it seems more of a tendency to be dropped at close proximity to the boss.

The only guaranteed way to eliminate player bias in participation of various class-role combos is to rule it out entierly as i suggested above.

The best way to influence player bias in selection is to alter the challenges, provide closets or chutes where the thing you imagine is being under-represented is better suited for the task.

But, be warned - when you convince them to go this route, accept your chosen methodology for balance based on participation in various closets, there is no guarantee your beloved nickels (stam dd in g/t) will be first on the list for "participation balancing" ahead of other combos like stam-healers or health dps or any other of the "why turn me down" folks.

Drdeath20

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Both magica Dk's and magica Templars have better single target DPS. Sorcs have better AOE DPS.

This is entirely false, the average pet sorcs in most trials are putting out upwards of 40k Dps

The only templar or Dk I have ever seen
do near that is Alcast or RNC


And they are exceptional players.


*correction, RNC WAS an exceptional player*

I could see magplars putting up higher single target dps but only on a pre jesus beam nerf magplar. Especially on lower health targets but definetly not on bosses with over 3.5 milljon health. Magplars rotations on bosses over 50% health are too reliant on sweeps to compete

Bobby_V_Rockit

... buff Stam Sorcs. Make them great again.

Nelson_Rebel

STEVIL wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

So you're effectively endorsing not giving a damn about players who don't play stamina DD's?

The reason addressing stamina healers is useless is because it is not built within game mechanics to be an effective stamina healer. The "restoration line" is and has always been a magic based play.

This is how ZOS built the game.

Now not only do we have ONLY magic healers (if you want to use this silly argument) we now have almost exclusively ONLY magic DD's participating in Vet Trials. And Stamina actually has DPS built into the game and IS supposed to be a competitive playstyle. Where do we see that now? You are trying to play devils advocate when you know DAMN well how dominant Magic is, and specifically mag sorcs.

I can't for the life of me get how you can defend only ONE playstyle of players being able to be viable in this content.

I never said half the playerbase plays stamina, I
said VERBATIM that seperating the stamina player out of end game activities is halving the playerbase into haves and have nots.

You inferred that to meaning only stamina, as I'm including other magic dps as well. And also since you brought it up just go pug vet trials and dungeons once in a while to understand where the plight of players is at. I'm on all three platforms so I have a far broader scope of seeing where everything is at.

Is it 100% accurate? No of course not, but when EVERY SINGLE known trial guild that gets completions (not just leaderboards and score runs) It's ALWAYS comprised of Magic DD's.

First bold - No i did not say anything about "endorsing not giving a damn about players who don't play stamina DD's?"

matter of fact i thought this was about stamina dds being excluded, not about the plight of non-stamina dds. Did you maybe say that backwards?

First italics - So if the game is built so that certain role-class-source-weapon combos are not being accepted by players in a small closet of content then thats ok - unless its stam-dd-trial/group or non-sorc-dd-trial/group?

You keep coming back to class class class... which one would expect given the title of the thread - when really its more about the content than the class in the closet you have chosen to segregate out for you case.

Second bold - Where you say in this context i say in this closet. it is an invalid process to look at smaller and smaller subsets of the whole to find nose count discrepancies and then extrapolate that to being evidence a bigger problem. And again back to class specific at the end.

Second italics - you dont even remain consistent in this sentence here and its following paragraph... separating stamina out is halving the playerbase but then next up you kind of imply that the halves are not stamina taken out but also other mag dps as well? So, its not cutting stamina out that halving the playerbase but a lot of different things resulting in the half and half?

great, if thats the new claim, - show us the 50/50 split numbers you have.

Last bold - are we back to stam v mag in dd role for trial/guild and off sorc v everyone else in trial/group dd now - keeps switching when convenient.

How many of those same guilds trial/group runs also had magica healers?
How many also had health based or stam-health based tanks more than magica-based tanks?

If this thread was titled "**A matter of trial/group mechanics balances between various roles** and the fofus was not so much on the sorc vs other classes in a single role, you would be dealing with the problem.

You know those machines you used to find in grocery stores - coin eaters we called them - where you could throw tons of loose change and it would be sorted into totals and money given out.

Well, since closet doesn't seem to be getting thru, lets pretend you know what these machines are and how they work.

the playerbase is the coins.
the various pieces of content and where applicable the roles within those are the different sized ans shaped openings the coins fall thru.

You are looking at one of the chutes and pointing out there are fewer quarters in this tube than there are nickels. the answer is not reshaping the nickel to match the quarter chute. it will still be a nickel.

more of the more dangerous boss specials tend to be "stand in stupids" often coming out from or dropped at the feet of or moving with" the boss than are of the "endanger things away from the boss more than those up close.

While sometimes mechanics do "negate" magic effects and leave stamina abilities unscathed, these are more rare and also have sometime it seems more of a tendency to be dropped at close proximity to the boss.

The only guaranteed way to eliminate player bias in participation of various class-role combos is to rule it out entierly as i suggested above.

The best way to influence player bias in selection is to alter the challenges, provide closets or chutes where the thing you imagine is being under-represented is better suited for the task.

But, be warned - when you convince them to go this route, accept your chosen methodology for balance based on participation in various closets, there is no guarantee your beloved nickels (stam dd in g/t) will be first on the list for "participation balancing" ahead of other combos like stam-healers or health dps or any other of the "why turn me down" folks.

Yes I already corrected my statement to mean to say you're effectively endorsing NOT giving a damn about stamina DD's

As for the rest of you post I'm sorry but what a load of crap.


Nothing but MORE metaphors and bush beating than STAYING on topic.

It's impossible to have a conversation with someone who refuses to stay on topic and keeps trying to direct the conversation to an entirely unrelated and irrelevant avenue


If you can stay on topic to my post I can respond.

Until then kudos and enjoy

Bobby_V_Rockit

I would hazard a guess that by ZOS making classes imbalanced like this, it would encourage players to reroll other toons for the various content.

I.e. Roll a mag sorc for trials, stam sorc for vma, nightblade for pvp, whatever you want for overland, etc. I can see this way of coercing players to choose the right tool for the right job wrt content and evening the playing field a little.

Not that I agree with being pseudo-forced to reroll toons, but I can see the logic.

STEVIL

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

So you're effectively endorsing not giving a damn about players who don't play stamina DD's?

The reason addressing stamina healers is useless is because it is not built within game mechanics to be an effective stamina healer. The "restoration line" is and has always been a magic based play.

This is how ZOS built the game.

Now not only do we have ONLY magic healers (if you want to use this silly argument) we now have almost exclusively ONLY magic DD's participating in Vet Trials. And Stamina actually has DPS built into the game and IS supposed to be a competitive playstyle. Where do we see that now? You are trying to play devils advocate when you know DAMN well how dominant Magic is, and specifically mag sorcs.

I can't for the life of me get how you can defend only ONE playstyle of players being able to be viable in this content.

I never said half the playerbase plays stamina, I
said VERBATIM that seperating the stamina player out of end game activities is halving the playerbase into haves and have nots.

You inferred that to meaning only stamina, as I'm including other magic dps as well. And also since you brought it up just go pug vet trials and dungeons once in a while to understand where the plight of players is at. I'm on all three platforms so I have a far broader scope of seeing where everything is at.

Is it 100% accurate? No of course not, but when EVERY SINGLE known trial guild that gets completions (not just leaderboards and score runs) It's ALWAYS comprised of Magic DD's.

First bold - No i did not say anything about "endorsing not giving a damn about players who don't play stamina DD's?"

matter of fact i thought this was about stamina dds being excluded, not about the plight of non-stamina dds. Did you maybe say that backwards?

First italics - So if the game is built so that certain role-class-source-weapon combos are not being accepted by players in a small closet of content then thats ok - unless its stam-dd-trial/group or non-sorc-dd-trial/group?

You keep coming back to class class class... which one would expect given the title of the thread - when really its more about the content than the class in the closet you have chosen to segregate out for you case.

Second bold - Where you say in this context i say in this closet. it is an invalid process to look at smaller and smaller subsets of the whole to find nose count discrepancies and then extrapolate that to being evidence a bigger problem. And again back to class specific at the end.

Second italics - you dont even remain consistent in this sentence here and its following paragraph... separating stamina out is halving the playerbase but then next up you kind of imply that the halves are not stamina taken out but also other mag dps as well? So, its not cutting stamina out that halving the playerbase but a lot of different things resulting in the half and half?

great, if thats the new claim, - show us the 50/50 split numbers you have.

Last bold - are we back to stam v mag in dd role for trial/guild and off sorc v everyone else in trial/group dd now - keeps switching when convenient.

How many of those same guilds trial/group runs also had magica healers?
How many also had health based or stam-health based tanks more than magica-based tanks?

If this thread was titled "**A matter of trial/group mechanics balances between various roles** and the fofus was not so much on the sorc vs other classes in a single role, you would be dealing with the problem.

You know those machines you used to find in grocery stores - coin eaters we called them - where you could throw tons of loose change and it would be sorted into totals and money given out.

Well, since closet doesn't seem to be getting thru, lets pretend you know what these machines are and how they work.

the playerbase is the coins.
the various pieces of content and where applicable the roles within those are the different sized ans shaped openings the coins fall thru.

You are looking at one of the chutes and pointing out there are fewer quarters in this tube than there are nickels. the answer is not reshaping the nickel to match the quarter chute. it will still be a nickel.

more of the more dangerous boss specials tend to be "stand in stupids" often coming out from or dropped at the feet of or moving with" the boss than are of the "endanger things away from the boss more than those up close.

While sometimes mechanics do "negate" magic effects and leave stamina abilities unscathed, these are more rare and also have sometime it seems more of a tendency to be dropped at close proximity to the boss.

The only guaranteed way to eliminate player bias in participation of various class-role combos is to rule it out entierly as i suggested above.

The best way to influence player bias in selection is to alter the challenges, provide closets or chutes where the thing you imagine is being under-represented is better suited for the task.

But, be warned - when you convince them to go this route, accept your chosen methodology for balance based on participation in various closets, there is no guarantee your beloved nickels (stam dd in g/t) will be first on the list for "participation balancing" ahead of other combos like stam-healers or health dps or any other of the "why turn me down" folks.

Yes I already corrected my statement to mean to say you're effectively endorsing NOT giving a damn about stamina DD's

As for the rest of you post I'm sorry but what a load of crap.


Nothing but MORE metaphors and bush beating than STAYING on topic.

It's impossible to have a conversation with someone who refuses to stay on topic and keeps trying to direct the conversation to an entirely unrelated and irrelevant avenue


If you can stay on topic to my post I can respond.

Until then kudos and enjoy

As you are obviously aware one of the best ways to foster a one-sided result from an apparent discussion is to limit the positions that can be presented to those favorable or easily dealt with and exclude any that dont fit that as out of scope.

one mans "stay on topic" is another man's "dont question my conclusion."

I dont consider questioning whether nose-counting classes in a small portion of content is anything like a valid measure of class balance irrelevant.
I dont consider questioning whether you think it is a valid measure only for this one chosen itch of yours or if you also feel the same method should be used for other class-source-role combos irrelevant.

they kinda seem dead spot on.

In logic, an analysis method that only "works" (produces the result you prefer) in one certain type of case but wont be allowed to be used for others of very similar nature is usually considered unacceptable. like in scientific methodology - repeatability is key and dismissing such challenges is seen as... questionable at best.

But i can see why you would want them excluded from consideration.

kudos... following well in a long long long history of "control the narrative, control the result" efforts.

waitwhat

If everyone who voted to bring other classes in line with sorcs is fine with that, awesome.

Just realize that means giving more damage to stamblades. Y'all sure you're not going to whine about that later?

Edziu

waitwhat wrote: »

If everyone who voted to bring other classes in line with sorcs is fine with that, awesome.

Just realize that means giving more damage to stamblades. Y'all sure you're not going to whine about that later?

they no lost bonus damage with crit and stun from stelth so why? outside stealth NB's dont have that hight burst without proc sets avaible to everyone....with not mention about their survivability

STEVIL

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

I would hazard a guess that by ZOS making classes imbalanced like this, it would encourage players to reroll other toons for the various content.

I.e. Roll a mag sorc for trials, stam sorc for vma, nightblade for pvp, whatever you want for overland, etc. I can see this way of coercing players to choose the right tool for the right job wrt content and evening the playing field a little.

Not that I agree with being pseudo-forced to reroll toons, but I can see the logic.

I would dearly love if this game were much more content dependent for "best at" for a wide variety of the in-game choices.

Right now its mostly about an almost entirely internal set of numbers - your best dps for this is likely mostly your best dps for that and your best burst for this is your best burst for that and your best heals here will also be your best heals there... with very very very few exceptions that matter enough to make you change up much.

this is a big part of what drives the game to such limiting numbers of metas which then promote some players to exclude anything they feel as top enough. let morphs for healing choose between "5% more healing on targets affected by burning status" or "5% more healing for targets affected by poisoned or diseased status" or have repentance be free if there are undead around and cost if not.

i would love for this game to be kre of the "choose the right setup and tools for the challenge" and less" build to your best numbers and rotation and take it anywhere."

but those are not accomplished at the class level - more at the skills and traits and gear levels.

i mean there are like four to six alchemy reagents that restore health right? imagine if each had their own "5% more if..." tied to status effects on you when drunk allowing for lotsa different "best potion for healing in City of Ash" vs say spindleclutch or crypt of hearts.

waitwhat

Poliwrath wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

It's like 1.6 all over again with all the "nerf sorc" threads.

Personally I would rather ZoS become less conservative and give the other classes better tools to compete. But I suspect shieldbreaker 2.0 is coming soon.

4k dmg light attacks make it happen zos

Realtalk: Is that a low number, because mine crit for 6k?

waitwhat

LiquidPony wrote: »

Speaking strictly in PvE terms since I don't PvP ...

Are magsorcs OP? Well, sort of. DPS sorcs are a bit over-tuned. Pets are super powerful in some content. Liquid Lightning, Curse, and Ward are all great skills. But you can tank or DPS all content on a DK, and you can heal or DPS all content on a Templar, but you don't see many sorc tanks or sorc healers in the-end game.

So honestly, a minor tweak or 2 probably brings magsorcs back in line. I don't think any major nerfs to the sorc class or buffs to the other classes are necessary. Very small changes can have very large effects in a complex system like this.

I see really impressive parses on all sorts of specs. It's not like you can't blow through all end-game content using other specs, and even compete for leaderboards, it's just a little bit easier with magsorcs.

So, yes: sorcs need to be looked at in terms of balance, but ultimately I think said balance will be achieved by very minor changes.

@LiquidPony

I just want to point out that this post makes no mention of nightblades. Bringing sorcs into line with DKs and Templars isn't the only challenge we're dealing with here.

joshjda

The answer is not to nerf anything the reason mage sorcs are used is because they are the only real viable option as stam characters can not keep up resources to save themselves. You want diversity in builds then ffs how about some extra stam from heavy attacks make stam regen actually help at this point med armor is a waste you can just wear heavy get nearly same damage same regens same crits it is almost stupid to even use med armor. Mages have nearly endless resources it is nearly impossible to run out you want balance you want people using something else besides mages fix stamina so that it's usable.

The main staves used in a magic dps is of course lightning why is works if a fire staves heavy attack exploaded and dispersed 20-25% light or heavy damage to all enemies in a 5 meter radius you would see alot more dk fire mages as well. The issue is not that a lightning sorc is op it's that it is the only truely effective dps healing off crits has it's own oh *** heal that restores resources heavies restore massive chunks of magica . Just simply help other dps classes along and you will see people using other builds.

A really great stamina dps character btw is a 2h nightblade using battle ax brawler siphoning attacks power extraction your favorite shadow ability and killers blade for executes. This build will survive most anything thrown at it while dealing very large amounts of damage between bleeds and the power extractions.