**A matter of class balances**

LiquidPony

Speaking strictly in PvE terms since I don't PvP ...

Are magsorcs OP? Well, sort of. DPS sorcs are a bit over-tuned. Pets are super powerful in some content. Liquid Lightning, Curse, and Ward are all great skills. But you can tank or DPS all content on a DK, and you can heal or DPS all content on a Templar, but you don't see many sorc tanks or sorc healers in the-end game.

So honestly, a minor tweak or 2 probably brings magsorcs back in line. I don't think any major nerfs to the sorc class or buffs to the other classes are necessary. Very small changes can have very large effects in a complex system like this.

I see really impressive parses on all sorts of specs. It's not like you can't blow through all end-game content using other specs, and even compete for leaderboards, it's just a little bit easier with magsorcs.

So, yes: sorcs need to be looked at in terms of balance, but ultimately I think said balance will be achieved by very minor changes.

Nelson_Rebel

LiquidPony wrote: »

Speaking strictly in PvE terms since I don't PvP ...

Are magsorcs OP? Well, sort of. DPS sorcs are a bit over-tuned. Pets are super powerful in some content. Liquid Lightning, Curse, and Ward are all great skills. But you can tank or DPS all content on a DK, and you can heal or DPS all content on a Templar, but you don't see many sorc tanks or sorc healers in the-end game.

So honestly, a minor tweak or 2 probably brings magsorcs back in line. I don't think any major nerfs to the sorc class or buffs to the other classes are necessary. Very small changes can have very large effects in a complex system like this.

I see really impressive parses on all sorts of specs. It's not like you can't blow through all end-game content using other specs, and even compete for leaderboards, it's just a little bit easier with magsorcs.

So, yes: sorcs need to be looked at in terms of balance, but ultimately I think said balance will be achieved by very minor changes.

This is essentially what I was alluding to.


Although I have seen more sorcs 30k-40k+ more than twice of all other classes combined. They make up nearly 3/4ths of every trial guild I am with

Joy_Division

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

It's like 1.6 all over again with all the "nerf sorc" threads.

Personally I would rather ZoS become less conservative and give the other classes better tools to compete. But I suspect shieldbreaker 2.0 is coming soon.

As I said, I don't believe Sorcs should be nerfed.

But they are simply outperforming everyone else by VERY large margins

That's like saying I don't believe my wife should lose weight even she if does look VERY fat in that pair of jeans.

BenzZos

I wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow ZOS deletes every character on everyone's account and declared "now it's balanced" everyone is level 1.

Nelson_Rebel

Joy_Division wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

It's like 1.6 all over again with all the "nerf sorc" threads.

Personally I would rather ZoS become less conservative and give the other classes better tools to compete. But I suspect shieldbreaker 2.0 is coming soon.

As I said, I don't believe Sorcs should be nerfed.

But they are simply outperforming everyone else by VERY large margins

That's like saying I don't believe my wife should lose weight even she does look VERY fat in that pair of jeans.

While there is only one way to not be fat, I.E. lose weight.


There are different ways to balance classes. So while an amusing metaphor, it is not applicable to this situation.

We can buff classes, change mechanics to favor more than just ALL RANGED magic. Let mechanics favor close range somewhat, have different effects, add in certain bosses with different weaknesses etc...


There are so many options

Peekachu99

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Until they make trials more accessable and interesting to the player base at large, I can't take any of these threads seriously. I mean, Trial completion is lower than VMA, if I recall. It's a miniscule, highly vocal hardcore segment of the population (of which I am admittedly one) crying for what they define as "end game" balance.

Most players' end game is a vet dungon, maybe RoM or WGT, not trials. ZoS needs to work on getting participation and rewards up, then start looking at what kind of tuning needs to be done for the classes that are lagging in performance, be it tanking, heals or dps (there are THREE roles, remember--most people forget).

The trials completion rate is unknowable, PC, Xbox and Ps4 combined have very large numbers of vet completions

And endgame balance is currently completeled by 2 dks tanks, 2 templars healers, and 7 sorcs with 1 Mag dk buff chainer


Very little deviation in any vet run on all platforms.

Also warden is specifically being given healing and tanking tres

"Unknowable", as in "not known", then you go on to say that participation/ completion is 'very large'. Okay...not sure how you came to that conclusion other than anecdotal experience, which would be different for everyone. I am CERTAIN, however, that the completion rate for vet dungeons and overland content is higher than the completion rate for trials. The preponderance of evidence would suggest this. That's what content is tuned for, not raiding.

Nelson_Rebel

BenzZos wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow ZOS deletes every character on everyone's account and declared "now it's balanced" everyone is level 1.

Amusing, but hardly constructive or helpful.


We all know Sorcs are in a very high place right now above other classes.

So lets bring others up to par ehh?

alexkdd99

Saying you aren't doing 1 thing then write a couple paragraphs trying to accomplish exactly what you said you weren't doing makes no sense.

It's like if a horse walks by and you call it a cow, that doesn't make it a cow.

Saying you aren't doing one thing but then do exactly that still means you are doing what you said you aren't. Kind of confusing, I know.

Also I have yet to see anyone in any dungeon be told they couldn't enter because they aren't a mag sorc. I have yet to see the same thing be said anywhere in pvp. I have not seen it being said in normal trials either.

It is only rarely said in vet trials. Those same vet trials are the same ones saying healers can only be mag templars.

The only conclusion I can come up with is you are surrounded by clowns if everything you said is actually true.

Your personal friends and people you choose to play with doesn't equate to the entire eso population.

Tommy_The_Gun

rotaugen454 wrote: »

So , really this is a "nerf mag sorc" thread.

Well.... sorcerer as far as I know is the only class that can go full DPS and still be incredibly tanky & mobile...
And seeing how other classes are getting wrecked next patch (I am kindof a surprised ZOS found something to nerf in NB... )
except for already OP sorcerer...

Tasear

You Know they got nerfs too? Especially the poor stamina sorrecer. Look over all the notes not just class notes.

Edziu

Tasear wrote: »

You Know they got nerfs too? Especially the poor stamina sorrecer. Look over all the notes not just class notes.

do you mean about redguard nerf and heavy armor constitution passive nerf?

Nelson_Rebel

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Saying you aren't doing 1 thing then write a couple paragraphs trying to accomplish exactly what you said you weren't doing makes no sense.

It's like if a horse walks by and you call it a cow, that doesn't make it a cow.

Saying you aren't doing one thing but then do exactly that still means you are doing what you said you aren't. Kind of confusing, I know.

Also I have yet to see anyone in any dungeon be told they couldn't enter because they aren't a mag sorc. I have yet to see the same thing be said anywhere in pvp. I have not seen it being said in normal trials either.

It is only rarely said in vet trials. Those same vet trials are the same ones saying healers can only be mag templars.

The only conclusion I can come up with is you are surrounded by clowns if everything you said is actually true.

Your personal friends and people you choose to play with doesn't equate to the entire eso population.

*Sigh*

I wish people actually read and understand so I don't have to repeat myself. I addressed all this in the main post which you seem to have not fully read or misinterpreted.

Again while the metaphors are cute, they are also
irrelevant in this situation.

Nowhere in my post did I say to nerf Mag Sorcs, I clearly stated the issue lies in Two Parts

1. The domination of Magic damage and skills in trials is superior to any stamina spec, along with the incredible necessity of shields added survivability, I.E. Harness magicka.

2. Mechanics involved always make up close damage from physical stamina users very dangerous and unnecessary now that magic have almost universally Higher single target and AoE damage. Of which Sorcerers excell at in all areas.


While it is true that seeing people kicked is rare in vet dungeons I have seen it occurring more and more with each patch. After the morrowind patch notes released it's clear that sorcerers are going to be the only DPS needed for trials at this point. Even now it's as I said almost exclusively Mag Sorcs.

As for your very personal attack and attempt at ridiculing me.

No this is not with people I run with. To be clear my guild is specifically making it a point to accept stamina, and other magic classes into vet trials in order to give them a chance as NO other guild
will accept them. Not even PuG trial groups will let stamina in. I have been doing vet trials a very long time and this is a behavior I have witnessed at all three alliance areas more and more. It is not some illusion or self created idea. It is concrete and disturbing that this is becoming a common factor for ESO. And the reason I have gone to the trouble of trying to help remedy the plight of stamina DPS and other mag dpsers.

As for the nerf aspect. I gave examples here and in my original post of what else could be done besides nerfing

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

It's like 1.6 all over again with all the "nerf sorc" threads.

Personally I would rather ZoS become less conservative and give the other classes better tools to compete. But I suspect shieldbreaker 2.0 is coming soon.

As I said, I don't believe Sorcs should be nerfed.

But they are simply outperforming everyone else by VERY large margins

That's like saying I don't believe my wife should lose weight even she does look VERY fat in that pair of jeans.

While there is only one way to not be fat, I.E. lose weight.


There are different ways to balance classes. So while an amusing metaphor, it is not applicable to this situation.

We can buff classes, change mechanics to favor more than just ALL RANGED magic. Let mechanics favor close range somewhat, have different effects, add in certain bosses with different weaknesses etc...


There are so many options

Nelson_Rebel

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Until they make trials more accessable and interesting to the player base at large, I can't take any of these threads seriously. I mean, Trial completion is lower than VMA, if I recall. It's a miniscule, highly vocal hardcore segment of the population (of which I am admittedly one) crying for what they define as "end game" balance.

Most players' end game is a vet dungon, maybe RoM or WGT, not trials. ZoS needs to work on getting participation and rewards up, then start looking at what kind of tuning needs to be done for the classes that are lagging in performance, be it tanking, heals or dps (there are THREE roles, remember--most people forget).

The trials completion rate is unknowable, PC, Xbox and Ps4 combined have very large numbers of vet completions

And endgame balance is currently completeled by 2 dks tanks, 2 templars healers, and 7 sorcs with 1 Mag dk buff chainer


Very little deviation in any vet run on all platforms.

Also warden is specifically being given healing and tanking tres

"Unknowable", as in "not known", then you go on to say that participation/ completion is 'very large'. Okay...not sure how you came to that conclusion other than anecdotal experience, which would be different for everyone. I am CERTAIN, however, that the completion rate for vet dungeons and overland content is higher than the completion rate for trials. The preponderance of evidence would suggest this. That's what content is tuned for, not raiding.

Ahh yes thank you for pointing that out, I did phrase that quite poorly. My apologies.


Here is my clarification, I meant to say that on all three platforms I have seen very large completions combined. And yes the exact number is unknowable. But a good reference for this is to look at leaderboards for all of the trials. The top scores are almost exclusively Mag Sorcs dps. Because generally only Templars heal. And only DK's Tank vet trials.

STEVIL

Every single poll options supports the original opinion... even the closest to an other uses "other solution" carrying the implication that this is as described by the OP. the closest to disagree carries the "on top" with it.

So net result of poll is "tell me how much i am right."

nicely done self-reinforcing loop.

Wait until morrowind and see how much you are right in play. - not in forum.

Nelson_Rebel

STEVIL wrote: »

Every single poll options supports the original opinion... even the closest to an other uses "other solution" carrying the implication that this is as described by the OP. the closest to disagree carries the "on top" with it.

So net result of poll is "tell me how much i am right."

nicely done self-reinforcing loop.

Wait until morrowind and see how much you are right in play. - not in forum.

While this is technically true. That was not my intention.

I would edit the poll options to rectify if possible.

But that doesn't make this issue inaccurate. Stamina users are still unwelcome in most any trial setup. Magic is just better, more survivability and more damage. It's not healthy for the game.

Mag sorcs are being specifically called out because of the way mechanics work, which I should have emphasized more, But I DID address this in the original post.

Mechanics favor ranged DPS with high survivability. This is something that the sorcerer class was built for and excells at. They also now have the highest DPS parses. And the strongest AoEs and single target damage are most sorcs.

As I said other classes CAN be used, but there is little incentive to do so when sorcerers do it best, and faster.

All I want is for other classes to be brought back to being useful in these endgame specs, preferably by buffing the other classes slightly, or (less likely) to change mechanics to favor different ways of dpsing and different types of damage. I.E. make certain bosses have different weaknesses, or alter how bosses act so that something other than just ranged dps is necessary.

Bobby_V_Rockit

It is disheartning to see spammed zone chat requesting 9 mag DDs for vet Trials when some of us *cough* only play on one toon, that happens to be a Stamina Sorc DD... I vote bring UP the other DPS classes to Mag Sorc level so we can also participate and complete vSO and vAA.

Edit: typo

Doctordarkspawn

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Just anothet crazy thread,

People never stop complaining!

You have no idea what your talking about.

Nelson_Rebel

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

It is disheartning to see spammed zone chat requesting 9 mag DDs for vet Trials when some of us *cough* only play on one toon, that happens to be a Stamina Sorc DD... I vote bring UP the other DPS classes to Mag Sorc level so we can also participate and complete vSO and vAA.

Edit: typo

This is the type of thing that is becoming increasingly more and more of a problem. The worst offenders are definitely vAA and vMoL for being extremely prejudiced against stamina.

vSO and vHR are easier and aren't always demanding only magic, but again it's definitely become a very big problem.

Newer players I've encountered who are just getting into this content are crushed when they ask why players keep telling them not to be a stamina DD, and learn that being a staff magic user is the best way to get accepted into content

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Lets look at the way OP wrote this.

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

I do NOT want to hurt other classes or specifically nerf them because they are overperforming OR possibly buff them to much if they are slightly underperforming.

OK, that's good so far.

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

However lets look at the biggest and most prominent problem with trials, dungeons and even PvP. Mag sorcs..

Whoa...

The biggest most prominent problem with trials, dungeons, and even PvP. That's a pretty strong statement.

• So on console, Maw of Lorecrap is bugged and doesnt work, but sorcs are a bigger problem.
• ZOS is making the warden class with a FREE ability that gives magicka, major sorcery, and purge but Sorcs are a bigger problem.
• All the classes sustain is getting ruined, the balance changes are terrible but number one threat to Tamriel?

Nelson_Rebel

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Lets look at the way OP wrote this.

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

I do NOT want to hurt other classes or specifically nerf them because they are overperforming OR possibly buff them to much if they are slightly underperforming.

OK, that's good so far.

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

However lets look at the biggest and most prominent problem with trials, dungeons and even PvP. Mag sorcs..

Whoa...

The biggest most prominent problem with trials, dungeons, and even PvP. That's a pretty strong statement.

• So on console, Maw of Lorecrap is bugged and doesnt work, but sorcs are a bigger problem.
• ZOS is making the warden class with a FREE ability that gives magicka, major sorcery, and purge but Sorcs are a bigger problem.
• All the classes sustain is getting ruined, the balance changes are terrible but number one threat to Tamriel?

Lol this gave me a chuckle.


I suppose I phrased that sentence poorly as well.

But there was far more points to my post than this one quote.

My intent with this statement was assumed that everyone knew I was talking about the biggest problem with trials DPS users and how much better Mag sorcs are for doing these trials as dps

I didn't clarify this but I can edit the post later to prevent this confusion

Nelson_Rebel

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

• So on console, Maw of Lorecrap is bugged and doesnt work, but sorcs are a bigger problem.
• ZOS is making the warden class with a FREE ability that gives magicka, major sorcery, and purge but Sorcs are a bigger problem.
• All the classes sustain is getting ruined, the balance changes are terrible but number one threat to Tamriel?

This deserves more attention


1.Maw is most definitely broke, however this has been something I've addressed before and it would have been redundant in this thread as I had a different issue to focus on and I didn't want the thread to go off topic.

2. I haven't been able to test the warden and there hasn't been enough information from pts for me to properly judge this issue, but I agree it may very well be OP

3. The classes sustainability has been talked extensively by the community on here and has voiced it's opinion on other threads, I can't do it any more justice. I don't like it either

Nelson_Rebel

Added in a link as well to bring in a broader scope to the discussion.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

So before I begin, lets clear up a couple pre-requisites and possible confusions/misinterpretations.

I do NOT want to hurt other classes or specifically nerf them because they are overperforming OR possibly buff them to much if they are slightly underperforming.

The issue I'm speaking of in this post, is the imbalance with viable end game trials and (to a lesser extent) Dungeons. I understand that with the Morrowind update they are hoping to get the Warden to diversify the Tank and Healer slots while bringing a viable new dps.And it seems very likely thus far that is indeed what will happen as already end game raiders are theorycrafting to have Warden Healers in the group for Trials, and possibly an off tank Warden.

However lets look at the biggest and most prominent problem with trials, dungeons and even PvP. The domination of Magic DPS being almost exclusively the accepted loadout for DD's

Right now in end game trials Sorcerers are almost predominantly the only DPS allowed and utilized in end game raiding. The domination of Magic in trials is partially to blame
for this, @wrobel, However the reason that mag sorcs are the most used is due also to the way mechanics are currently designed. Blatantly favoring ranged DPS with high survivability (Shields)

These two dynamics's have contributed not only to the pure destruction of any Stamina class being welcomed into trials, but also created the massive Mag Sorc imbalance of superiority for DPS choices. While it is true that it's POSSIBLE to use other magic class spec like the Magic DK being used for chaining in adds in vmol (which can be done with off tank) and providing 1 group buff of engulfing flames providing an additional 10% increase for flame damage, it is still almost exclusively Mag sorcs.

It's gotten so bad that even Normal trial groups have begun kicking people from groups for not being Mag dps! I mean seriously? As easy as normal trials are, the fact it has led to this ingrained requirement for only Mag dps for quick completions and superior damage for both AoE and single target is just sad right now. And I have to watch as people are shunned and ridiculed from vet dungeons, trials and some of pvp too for not playing the Mag spec to bring more damage.


I understand that skill is a VERY important factor in determining DPS and having a proper understanding of rotation and mechanics. But Once this is achieved why are Mag sorcs STILL the most powerful option? This imbalance has gotten out of hand, and with Morrowind now on the way and nerfing everyone EXCEPT Sorcerers I truly am appalled at how this has been allowed to be ignored or overlooked.

Stamina Deserves to be useful in trials, and more than 1 magic class spec should be able to have as much damage potential as Sorcs.

Please this is not a bash thread against Mag sorcerers, nor do I want to ruin the classes uniqueness as was done to Templars. But it has gone to far with what is now acceptable in the endgame community. Enough is enough, bring diversity back.

Please leave constructive criticism if you disagree. And for those who agree do not bash those who disagree. The best way to achieve balance is by showing ZOS some maturity with these issues so they can be looked at objectively.


@Wrobel
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
@ZOS_GinaBruno


*Edited for Clarity @Yolokin_Swagonborn*
*Edited to add link*

Also here is a link regarding the official class balances discussion in the Public PTS for even more information

I had a buddy who also played eso come over and do a dps test on my stamblade (raid equipment of his choice) and on his sorc. He does VMSA flawless in his sleep btw lol. He pulled 45k selfbuffed on his sorc(no kidding), and 30k on my sstamblade. Enough said

Nelson_Rebel

Mangeli200194 wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

So before I begin, lets clear up a couple pre-requisites and possible confusions/misinterpretations.

I do NOT want to hurt other classes or specifically nerf them because they are overperforming OR possibly buff them to much if they are slightly underperforming.

The issue I'm speaking of in this post, is the imbalance with viable end game trials and (to a lesser extent) Dungeons. I understand that with the Morrowind update they are hoping to get the Warden to diversify the Tank and Healer slots while bringing a viable new dps.And it seems very likely thus far that is indeed what will happen as already end game raiders are theorycrafting to have Warden Healers in the group for Trials, and possibly an off tank Warden.

However lets look at the biggest and most prominent problem with trials, dungeons and even PvP. The domination of Magic DPS being almost exclusively the accepted loadout for DD's

Right now in end game trials Sorcerers are almost predominantly the only DPS allowed and utilized in end game raiding. The domination of Magic in trials is partially to blame
for this, @wrobel, However the reason that mag sorcs are the most used is due also to the way mechanics are currently designed. Blatantly favoring ranged DPS with high survivability (Shields)

These two dynamics's have contributed not only to the pure destruction of any Stamina class being welcomed into trials, but also created the massive Mag Sorc imbalance of superiority for DPS choices. While it is true that it's POSSIBLE to use other magic class spec like the Magic DK being used for chaining in adds in vmol (which can be done with off tank) and providing 1 group buff of engulfing flames providing an additional 10% increase for flame damage, it is still almost exclusively Mag sorcs.

It's gotten so bad that even Normal trial groups have begun kicking people from groups for not being Mag dps! I mean seriously? As easy as normal trials are, the fact it has led to this ingrained requirement for only Mag dps for quick completions and superior damage for both AoE and single target is just sad right now. And I have to watch as people are shunned and ridiculed from vet dungeons, trials and some of pvp too for not playing the Mag spec to bring more damage.


I understand that skill is a VERY important factor in determining DPS and having a proper understanding of rotation and mechanics. But Once this is achieved why are Mag sorcs STILL the most powerful option? This imbalance has gotten out of hand, and with Morrowind now on the way and nerfing everyone EXCEPT Sorcerers I truly am appalled at how this has been allowed to be ignored or overlooked.

Stamina Deserves to be useful in trials, and more than 1 magic class spec should be able to have as much damage potential as Sorcs.

Please this is not a bash thread against Mag sorcerers, nor do I want to ruin the classes uniqueness as was done to Templars. But it has gone to far with what is now acceptable in the endgame community. Enough is enough, bring diversity back.

Please leave constructive criticism if you disagree. And for those who agree do not bash those who disagree. The best way to achieve balance is by showing ZOS some maturity with these issues so they can be looked at objectively.


@Wrobel
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
@ZOS_GinaBruno


*Edited for Clarity @Yolokin_Swagonborn*
*Edited to add link*

Also here is a link regarding the official class balances discussion in the Public PTS for even more information

I had a buddy who also played eso come over and do a dps test on my stamblade (raid equipment of his choice) and on his sorc. He does VMSA flawless in his sleep btw lol. He pulled 45k selfbuffed on his sorc(no kidding), and 30k on my sstamblade. Enough said

Certainly a good example.

The disparity is even more defined In an actual trial environment. Where even using close range dps is near suicide now

Elvenpath

L2P

WalksonGraves

Sorcs can't tell the difference between nerf sorc and buff other classes, typical entitlement.

Clearly there is no problem with 100% of trials dps being one class.

Nelson_Rebel

Elvenpath wrote: »

L2P

Oh how original

*see's and knows there's a disparity in the game*

"Let's move along l2p peasants*


Again apalling.

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Sorcs can't tell the difference between nerf sorc and buff other classes, typical entitlement.

Clearly there is no problem with 100% of trials dps being one class.

I'm unsure if you are agreeing or disagreeing lol

pattyLtd

I dont think sorcs are as "OP" as some claim but its a strong class for sure.
Personally magicka sorc is my favorite and i play all classes as many here do for me best thing about sprc is their mobility.

Biggest problem with eso is their lack of creativity.
They should make gameplay more interesting not dumb it down.
Buff other classes if necessary not nerf everything untill there isnt much left.

I 100% agree with thelast sentence of your post though.
They always do thimgs way to extreme or nothing at all but we have to wait and see how its gonna work out.

So many core things nerfed but still the "nerf sorc" threads are coming.
I really dont think think there is much left to nerf at this point tbh.

Nelson_Rebel

pattyLtd wrote: »

I dont think sorcs are as "OP" as some claim but its a strong class for sure.
Personally magicka sorc is my favorite and i play all classes as many here do for me best thing about sprc is their mobility.

Biggest problem with eso is their lack of creativity.
They should make gameplay more interesting not dumb it down.
Buff other classes if necessary not nerf everything untill there isnt much left.

I 100% agree with thelast sentence of your post though.
They always do thimgs way to extreme or nothing at all but we have to wait and see how its gonna work out.

So many core things nerfed but still the "nerf sorc" threads are coming.
I really dont think think there is much left to nerf at this point tbh.

Yes the lack of mechanics being favorable to other forms of DPS has been a very deciding factor on why Magic DPS and sorcerers in particular being so dominant.

They should alter them, but it's unlikely. So buffing the other classes to be competitive in endgame is my goal. Not nerf them.

And I definitely don't want them to do an extreme of either option

acw37162

Both magica Dk's and magica Templars have better single target DPS. Sorcs have better AOE DPS.