**A matter of class balances**

Nelson_Rebel

So before I begin, lets clear up a couple pre-requisites and possible confusions/misinterpretations.

I do NOT want to hurt other classes or specifically nerf them because they are overperforming OR possibly buff them to much if they are slightly underperforming.

The issue I'm speaking of in this post, is the imbalance with viable end game trials and (to a lesser extent) Dungeons. I understand that with the Morrowind update they are hoping to get the Warden to diversify the Tank and Healer slots while bringing a viable new dps.And it seems very likely thus far that is indeed what will happen as already end game raiders are theorycrafting to have Warden Healers in the group for Trials, and possibly an off tank Warden.

However lets look at the biggest and most prominent problem with trials, dungeons and even PvP. The domination of Magic DPS being almost exclusively the accepted loadout for DD's

Right now in end game trials Sorcerers are almost predominantly the only DPS allowed and utilized in end game raiding. The domination of Magic in trials is partially to blame
for this, @wrobel, However the reason that mag sorcs are the most used is due also to the way mechanics are currently designed. Blatantly favoring ranged DPS with high survivability (Shields)

These two dynamics's have contributed not only to the pure destruction of any Stamina class being welcomed into trials, but also created the massive Mag Sorc imbalance of superiority for DPS choices. While it is true that it's POSSIBLE to use other magic class spec like the Magic DK being used for chaining in adds in vmol (which can be done with off tank) and providing 1 group buff of engulfing flames providing an additional 10% increase for flame damage, it is still almost exclusively Mag sorcs.

It's gotten so bad that even Normal trial groups have begun kicking people from groups for not being Mag dps! I mean seriously? As easy as normal trials are, the fact it has led to this ingrained requirement for only Mag dps for quick completions and superior damage for both AoE and single target is just sad right now. And I have to watch as people are shunned and ridiculed from vet dungeons, trials and some of pvp too for not playing the Mag spec to bring more damage.


I understand that skill is a VERY important factor in determining DPS and having a proper understanding of rotation and mechanics. But Once this is achieved why are Mag sorcs STILL the most powerful option? This imbalance has gotten out of hand, and with Morrowind now on the way and nerfing everyone EXCEPT Sorcerers I truly am appalled at how this has been allowed to be ignored or overlooked.

Stamina Deserves to be useful in trials, and more than 1 magic class spec should be able to have as much damage potential as Sorcs.

Please this is not a bash thread against Mag sorcerers, nor do I want to ruin the classes uniqueness as was done to Templars. But it has gone to far with what is now acceptable in the endgame community. Enough is enough, bring diversity back.

Please leave constructive criticism if you disagree. And for those who agree do not bash those who disagree. The best way to achieve balance is by showing ZOS some maturity with these issues so they can be looked at objectively.


@Wrobel
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_KaiSchober
@ZOS_TristanK
@ZOS_GaryA

*Edited for Clarity @Yolokin_Swagonborn*
*Edited to add link*

Also here is a link regarding the official class balances discussion in the Public PTS for even more information

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/335667/pts-feedback-thread-for-class-balance#latest

rotaugen454

So , really this is a "nerf mag sorc" thread.

Turelus

rotaugen454 wrote: »

So , really this is a "nerf mag sorc" thread.

Well if you choose option 1 yes, but there are other options.

Nelson_Rebel

rotaugen454 wrote: »

So , really this is a "nerf mag sorc" thread.

Not at all. I welcome other options and even added the poll options to signify this.


I would like for other classes to be buffed a little and be as viable as sorcs. But having 7 out of 8 dps as Sorcs in every trial is a bit out of hand.

What would you propose?

Edited for grammar

AhPook_Is_Here

Nerf sorcs.

edit

wait no, i like my sorc.

Nelson_Rebel

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Nerf sorcs.

edit

wait no, i like my sorc.

Lol but seriously, I like sorcs too, and many of my guild members are Sorcs. But we all agree that even though we use Mag sorc it shouldn't be that way as the only way to achieve good trial results.

Tryxus

Nelson_Rebel

Tryxus wrote: »

I like that meme. Stealing it for future memes xD

But honestly, I would very much like to NOT nerf sorcs. I want to bring other DPS usefulness in these areas instead of being used only rarely to fill niche positions. There shouldn't be any reason why only 1 mag dk is allowed in all these veteran trials.

Lord_Eomer

Just anothet crazy thread,

People never stop complaining!

Nelson_Rebel

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Just anothet crazy thread,

People never stop complaining!

Very unhelpful.

This was not a complaint thread in any way. This was a post bringing to light a very serious endgame issue. I added in options for you to explain your position. Do you feel the magic, and Mag sorc dominating trials is acceptable? And why?

FlyLionel

Why follow the traditional way and just blaze up with nerfs? I thought everyone wanted their class to be strong? I don't want magsorc to get slapped, everyones affected by sustain changes. That being said, leave the classes to how they were prior and buff the weakest class(s). People would just pickup Morrowind without a second thought then..unless your case is the eso+ thing.

Nelson_Rebel

FlyLionel wrote: »

Why follow the traditional way and just blaze up with nerfs? I thought everyone wanted their class to be strong? I don't want magsorc to get slapped, everyones affected by sustain changes. That being said, leave the classes to how they were prior and buff the weakest class(s). People would just pickup Morrowind without a second thought then..unless your case is the eso+ thing.

I actually mentioned several times throughout the thread I did not want to begin with nerfs


If anything I believe that the issue is Mechanics specifically favoring the Mag Sorc playstyle. Other classes way of dpsing just simply isn't good enough to do damage and the sorc excells in every damage capacity possible. AoE, Single Target, And Range damage are all Sorcerers having the highest damage capacity. Other classes are literally limited by class capabilities

AlnilamE

Nerf everybody so that max DPS possible is 10k and make the game really challenging.

Nelson_Rebel

And please if you have any thoughts or different suggestions let me know and I will add them in to the main post or save it for a future Balance Post with a compilation of it all.

FlyLionel

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

Why follow the traditional way and just blaze up with nerfs? I thought everyone wanted their class to be strong? I don't want magsorc to get slapped, everyones affected by sustain changes. That being said, leave the classes to how they were prior and buff the weakest class(s). People would just pickup Morrowind without a second thought then..unless your case is the eso+ thing.

I actually mentioned several times throughout the thread I did not want to begin with nerfs


If anything I believe that the issue is Mechanics specifically favoring the Mag Sorc playstyle. Other classes way of dpsing just simply isn't good enough to do damage and the sorc excells in every damage capacity possible. AoE, Single Target, And Range damage are all Sorcerers having the highest damage capacity. Other classes are literally limited by class capabilities

I wasn't speaking about you man; just generally about a good amount of people since the patch notes how they wanted Sorc nerfed(For a bit I thought they should as well, but realized there is a better option).

Yes, curse falling perfectly in line with one's rotation seamlessly and crystal frags proc on automatic. Everything is spot on; and I like that. Hopefully a solution comes; as well for stamina. I doubt caltrops is all.

Nelson_Rebel

AlnilamE wrote: »

Nerf everybody so that max DPS possible is 10k and make the game really challenging.

I recognize that you are being snarky and sarcastic, and while normally I enjoy this, I would ask you refrain please. This has become a problem in the game on all levels.

No one class should have absolute domination of what is allowed into these activities. I'm not trying to nerf your sorc. I would prefer to buff the classes, or change how mechanics allow damage to be applied to not only favor Ranged DPS

Nelson_Rebel

FlyLionel wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

Why follow the traditional way and just blaze up with nerfs? I thought everyone wanted their class to be strong? I don't want magsorc to get slapped, everyones affected by sustain changes. That being said, leave the classes to how they were prior and buff the weakest class(s). People would just pickup Morrowind without a second thought then..unless your case is the eso+ thing.

I actually mentioned several times throughout the thread I did not want to begin with nerfs


If anything I believe that the issue is Mechanics specifically favoring the Mag Sorc playstyle. Other classes way of dpsing just simply isn't good enough to do damage and the sorc excells in every damage capacity possible. AoE, Single Target, And Range damage are all Sorcerers having the highest damage capacity. Other classes are literally limited by class capabilities

I wasn't speaking about you man; just generally about a good amount of people since the patch notes how they wanted Sorc nerfed(For a bit I thought they should as well, but realized there is a better option).

Yes, curse falling perfectly in line with one's rotation seamlessly and crystal frags proc on automatic. Everything is spot on; and I like that. Hopefully a solution comes; as well for stamina. I doubt caltrops is all.

Ah okay I understand.

Yes I have seen quite a bit of rage about sorcs. While it is an unfortunate situation that has put sorcs in the ultimate dps position, it's the devs fault for allowing this much of a drastic difference between the classes.

Edziu

Nelson_Rebel

Edziu wrote: »

LMAO

Best one so far, and accurate too xD

Gilvoth

Bring Other classes and specs up to Par with mag Sorcs


and also Increase Nightblade survivability.

Nelson_Rebel

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Bring Other classes and specs up to Par with mag Sorcs
and also Increase Nightblade suitability.

Yes nightblades in particular have been left out in the cold. What used to be the most buffed class has now dropped to obscurity. This shouldn't be so.

I'm not saying nightblades should be able to 1-2 shot players, unless you aren't geared or just suck very badly, but they definitely need a look at as well in trials

lunalitetempler

Remove classes, this will basically happen with spell crafting anyway ^^

Joy_Division

It's like 1.6 all over again with all the "nerf sorc" threads.

Personally I would rather ZoS become less conservative and give the other classes better tools to compete. But I suspect shieldbreaker 2.0 is coming soon.

Gilvoth

classes should be removed from eso. it solves this problem and soo many other problems.

Edziu

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

LMAO

Best one so far, and accurate too xD

I remember it was also long time ago on forum, 1.5-2 years ago maybe and here we are again

Poliwrath

Joy_Division wrote: »

It's like 1.6 all over again with all the "nerf sorc" threads.

Personally I would rather ZoS become less conservative and give the other classes better tools to compete. But I suspect shieldbreaker 2.0 is coming soon.

4k dmg light attacks make it happen zos

AndrewQ84

Nerfing should never happen with anything ever. Everything should be buffed to help match other, more OP classes/spells/skills/etc. If a particular class is outshining everything else, buff all the other classes to match it. The moment a producer starts to take away things with a nerf is the moment they start to get angry customers.

Nelson_Rebel

Joy_Division wrote: »

It's like 1.6 all over again with all the "nerf sorc" threads.

Personally I would rather ZoS become less conservative and give the other classes better tools to compete. But I suspect shieldbreaker 2.0 is coming soon.

As I said, I don't believe Sorcs should be nerfed.

But they are simply outperforming everyone else by VERY large margins

Peekachu99

Until they make trials more accessable and interesting to the player base at large, I can't take any of these threads seriously. I mean, Trial completion is lower than VMA, if I recall. It's a miniscule, highly vocal hardcore segment of the population (of which I am admittedly one) crying for what they define as "end game" balance.

Most players' end game is a vet dungon, maybe RoM or WGT, not trials. ZoS needs to work on getting participation and rewards up, then start looking at what kind of tuning needs to be done for the classes that are lagging in performance, be it tanking, heals or dps (there are THREE roles, remember--most people forget).

eso_nya

Id really love to see comparable screenshots of different specs played by the same player vs the target-dummy w/ only selfbuffs.

Nelson_Rebel

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Until they make trials more accessable and interesting to the player base at large, I can't take any of these threads seriously. I mean, Trial completion is lower than VMA, if I recall. It's a miniscule, highly vocal hardcore segment of the population (of which I am admittedly one) crying for what they define as "end game" balance.

Most players' end game is a vet dungon, maybe RoM or WGT, not trials. ZoS needs to work on getting participation and rewards up, then start looking at what kind of tuning needs to be done for the classes that are lagging in performance, be it tanking, heals or dps (there are THREE roles, remember--most people forget).

The actual trials completion rate is unknowable but from what I've seen PC, Xbox and Ps4 combined have very large numbers of vet completions with all combined. But again it's still a large portion of people

And endgame balance is currently completeled by 2 dks tanks, 2 templars healers, and 7 sorcs with 1 Mag dk buff chainer


Very little deviation in any vet run on all platforms.

Also warden is specifically being given healing and tanking tree's