Stam DK Was Nerfed, But Does the Floor Almost Touch Ceiling in PVE?

Bladerunner1

Before I get into the builds I've tried and the specifics, I'd like to point out that I'm nowhere near as skilled as half the people I've gotten to know in-game even though I've been playing the game for a few years. I'm not really on the floor that the devs describe, but my fumbling fingers have kept me far away from the ceiling.

I've been playing a Stamblade for years and found out that I manage to get 25k self buffed dps on the target skeleton using easy-to-get gear, like Hundings, Kra'gh and Spriggan. I love the burst and the infinite sustain on live, the dps can go as high as my spazzy fingers can manage while trying to keep up with global timers, which isn't all that great for me.

Recently I've started seriously trying out my stamina DPS Dragonknight when I have time, and I'm topping out around 20k dps while trying to follow a starter meta dungeon skill build I saw online. Again I'm using spriggans, hundings, Kra'gh, mostly purple armor with gold sharpened weapons. I was thinking the DK should have more DPS since there's an extra DOT that my NB is missing, but there's no major fracture available and it all feels so clunky to me, I don't like spamming flurry and waiting for skills to finish.

After reading about the changes mentioned in the patch notes and reading suggestions from skilled players that heavy attacks would be the new meta for dragonknights, I thought I'd try out heavy attacks on live instead of the usual frantic global cooldown speed contest with my fingers. After applying molten armaments and using power buff pots, my dps was once again 20k. Allow me to reiterate, I switched to heavy attack weaving and my dps didn't drop on live!

For my next test I tossed the hundings bow aside and used another set of sharpened hundings daggers for my back bar because heavy attack weaving with a bow is such a big pain in the butt. I spammed heavy attack / Dot / heavy attack / DOT, weaving every DOT at my disposal, and my new DPS is 22,480 on my first attempt, that's a 14% increase in damage from easy-to-use DW heavy attack spam on live, my own personal best for the DK.

After Morrowind, won't this type of dps go up? Master at Arms would buff heavy attacks by 20%, right? And caltrops would get a buff.

What about my Nightblade? Heavy attack spam won't do nearly as much damage and siphoning attacks took such a huge hit that I don't even want to think about it. The bow DOT and the dual wield DOT my NB could use got more costly according to the patch notes, and the NB spammable damage skill is already too expensive and inefficient for Boss fights. My DK on the other hand has molten armaments and two cheap dots, including an AOE DOT.

TL-DR

Dual wield heavy attack spam is easy on the fingers and seems to be a part of the new meta rotation anyway? The bow heavy attack is annoying by comparison.

*Edit* *Below average* Stamina Dragonknights get a buff from this update that requires heavy attacks, and they're already set up with extra cheap DOTs.

Mattock_Romulus

So you are saying stamina dragons knights are being buffed this coming patch...did I read that right?

theamazingx

The 20k you were pulling with a regular rotation is well below the ceiling. I don't know the ceiling on live because I converted to magicka a few days after homestead released, but the day homestead released I was hitting mid-30s selfbuffed. A heavy attack meta will likely be the way to go for StamDKs and I'm sure they'll adapt well to it with Molten and all, but it will by no means be a buff to their potential dps.

Juhasow

So You're saying that stam dk will be buffed in Morrowind because You pull 20k DPS with Heavy Attack build on live am I correct ?

If yes then I have advice for You. Visit PTS

Bladerunner1

Juhasow wrote: »

So You're saying that stam dk will be buffed in Morrowind because You pull 20k DPS with Heavy Attack build on live am I correct ?

If yes then I have advice for You. Visit PTS

So I took your advice, downloaded the PTS and I can't speak for other Stam DK players, but my below average heavy attack weaving Bosmer vampire wearing beginner's gear got a 7% buff. This was measured by killing the target skeleton alone.

22,480 on live -> 23,940 on PTS

Let's call that the new floor. So where's the new ceiling, did it go up or down and by how much?

MaxwellC

Yes we definitely got a buff I mean now I can cast igneous shield and get back 800 stamina instead of the bad 1.7k stamina on return, now I can use my ultimates and get even less for my max resource, and to top it off since reductions are gone I get to pay an even heftier price for abilities when almost all (95%) of a DKs abilities are expensive AF.

Stam DKs did not specifically get a buff and I'd wish you changed the title @Bladerunner1 because there is no patch notes that state that Stamina DKs received a buff whatsoever.

LorDrek

This update is P2W for warden, all reroll to warden.

Bladerunner1

MaxwellC wrote: »

Yes we definitely got a buff I mean now I can cast igneous shield and get back 800 stamina instead of the bad 1.7k stamina on return, now I can use my ultimates and get even less for my max resource, and to top it off since reductions are gone I get to pay an even heftier price for abilities when almost all (95%) of a DKs abilities are expensive AF.

Stam DKs did not specifically get a buff and I'd wish you changed the title @Bladerunner1 because there is no patch notes that state that Stamina DKs received a buff whatsoever.

OK, the title is fixed and I assume now that the ceiling fell, but I'm pointing out that the floor was most definitely lifted. This isn't the case for other classes. Players of every skill level who play a stamblade for instance dropped a few rungs on their ladder.

MaxwellC

@Bladerunner1
Thanks I appreciate it and by the floor being lifted I can only suggest that it would be because of the new CP called direct damage and other balance changes. This is to compensate for the lack of sustain and if these changes survive there will only be a huge jump for sorcerers while every other class especially Stam DK falls behind more so for the stam dk.

Durham

MaxwellC wrote: »

Yes we definitely got a buff I mean now I can cast igneous shield and get back 800 stamina instead of the bad 1.7k stamina on return, now I can use my ultimates and get even less for my max resource, and to top it off since reductions are gone I get to pay an even heftier price for abilities when almost all (95%) of a DKs abilities are expensive AF.

Stam DKs did not specifically get a buff and I'd wish you changed the title @Bladerunner1 because there is no patch notes that state that Stamina DKs received a buff whatsoever.

Agreed + in PVP they were destroyed almost completely

LiquidPony

This is the same general idea I've been circling around for a week or so now.

I keep hearing people, including people who are really knowledgeable about the game, say that these changes are going to hurt casual/new players the most.

But I don't see it. On PTS I can go stand in front of the target skeleton with a stam DK using a 2H weapon running non-BiS gear and a Heavy Attack + DoT rotation and do better DPS than I can using my Homestead rotation with BiS gear, because that old high-APM rotation is no longer sustainable.

On a stamina nightblade, we're still going to be able to use Rapid Strikes + Maelstrom Weapons, too. The *** return from Leeching Strikes is just enough to let us empower most of our DoTs.

elium85

Yeah, I totally think StamDK's running 2H'ers will be one of the better PvE DPS classes in Morrowind. It is a simple rotation and should be very potent with all the sustain nerfs.

santos.vellab16_ESO

elium85 wrote: »

Yeah, I totally think StamDK's running 2H'ers will be one of the better PvE DPS classes in Morrowind. It is a simple rotation and should be very potent with all the sustain nerfs.

The problem is that 2H is still godawful for AoE/trash clears in PVE, and I'm not sure the newly buffed Caltrops are enough to make up for that.

LorDrek wrote: »

This update is P2W for warden, all reroll to warden.

You forgot to randomly replace your "s" with "$" to properly compete for the title of least original comment ever made.

acw37162

I'm sitting at 28 - 32 K self buffed on my stam DK running;

2 Selens
5 VO
5 Kavatch Gladiator

I could get more running 5 Spriggans over Athens Kavatch but I like the Gladiator set and running meta gets boring. Also, o don't PVP a lot so that help to.

DW - Bow

DK's get major fracture from noxious breath

LiquidPony

santos.vellab16_ESO wrote: »

elium85 wrote: »

Yeah, I totally think StamDK's running 2H'ers will be one of the better PvE DPS classes in Morrowind. It is a simple rotation and should be very potent with all the sustain nerfs.

The problem is that 2H is still godawful for AoE/trash clears in PVE, and I'm not sure the newly buffed Caltrops are enough to make up for it.

LorDrek wrote: »

This update is P2W for warden, all reroll to warden.

You forgot to randomly replace your "s" with "$" to properly compete for the title of least original comment ever.

@santos.vellab16_ESO not sure about the 2H AoE thing. You've got Cleave, Reverse Slice and Heavy Attacks that all do Cleave damage. DW builds won't be able to sustain Steel Tornado spam. And for a DK, you've got Standard and Noxious Breath AoE in addition to Caltrops/Hail.

elium85

Yeah, I agree @LiquidPony . I think Follow Up will turn out to be a very powerful passive coupled with Noxious Breath, Carve and Dawnbreaker (all conal or AoE). It's the poor-man's vMA DW...

And even with DW, all one gains is Steel Tornado, which has gotten nerfed compared to what it once was.

OrphanHelgen

The thing with molten armaments, you actually have to activate it to get bonus, which also only counts on your heavy attacks and not other abilities. Sorcs have also heavy attack dmg bonus, and on top of that they have more max stam, physical dmg and reduce ult cost. Nightblades and templars even have 10% more crit dmg and more wpn damage. The molten from DK can seam strong, but they don't have any other passives to boost their damage like other classes have.

Xvorg

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Before I get into the builds I've tried and the specifics, I'd like to point out that I'm nowhere near as skilled as half the people I've gotten to know in-game even though I've been playing the game for a few years. I'm not really on the floor that the devs describe, but my fumbling fingers have kept me far away from the ceiling.

I've been playing a Stamblade for years and found out that I manage to get 25k self buffed dps on the target skeleton using easy-to-get gear, like Hundings, Kra'gh and Spriggan. I love the burst and the infinite sustain on live, the dps can go as high as my spazzy fingers can manage while trying to keep up with global timers, which isn't all that great for me.

Recently I've started seriously trying out my stamina DPS Dragonknight when I have time, and I'm topping out around 20k dps while trying to follow a starter meta dungeon skill build I saw online. Again I'm using spriggans, hundings, Kra'gh, mostly purple armor with gold sharpened weapons. I was thinking the DK should have more DPS since there's an extra DOT that my NB is missing, but there's no major fracture available and it all feels so clunky to me, I don't like spamming flurry and waiting for skills to finish.

After reading about the changes mentioned in the patch notes and reading suggestions from skilled players that heavy attacks would be the new meta for dragonknights, I thought I'd try out heavy attacks on live instead of the usual frantic global cooldown speed contest with my fingers. After applying molten armaments and using power buff pots, my dps was once again 20k. Allow me to reiterate, I switched to heavy attack weaving and my dps didn't drop on live!

For my next test I tossed the hundings bow aside and used another set of sharpened hundings daggers for my back bar because heavy attack weaving with a bow is such a big pain in the butt. I spammed heavy attack / Dot / heavy attack / DOT, weaving every DOT at my disposal, and my new DPS is 22,480 on my first attempt, that's a 14% increase in damage from easy-to-use DW heavy attack spam on live, my own personal best for the DK.

After Morrowind, won't this type of dps go up? Master at Arms would buff heavy attacks by 20%, right? And caltrops would get a buff.

What about my Nightblade? Heavy attack spam won't do nearly as much damage and siphoning attacks took such a huge hit that I don't even want to think about it. The bow DOT and the dual wield DOT my NB could use got more costly according to the patch notes, and the NB spammable damage skill is already too expensive and inefficient for Boss fights. My DK on the other hand has molten armaments and two cheap dots, including an AOE DOT.

TL-DR

Dual wield heavy attack spam is easy on the fingers and seems to be a part of the new meta rotation anyway? The bow heavy attack is annoying by comparison.

*Edit* *Below average* Stamina Dragonknights get a buff from this update that requires heavy attacks, and they're already set up with extra cheap DOTs.

Do you know that armaments gives you major sorc and that you are using the buff just for ONE type of atack (full heavy)?

santos.vellab16_ESO

LiquidPony wrote: »

@santos.vellab16_ESO not sure about the 2H AoE thing. You've got Cleave, Reverse Slice and Heavy Attacks that all do Cleave damage. DW builds won't be able to sustain Steel Tornado spam. And for a DK, you've got Standard and Noxious Breath AoE in addition to Caltrops/Hail.

Cleave is conal and tends to miss a lot of stuff that happens to be 2cm too far to the sides, especially with any kind of lag, also the damage is really meh and spamming it is out of question. Reverse Slice has an annoyingly tiny radius, and only starts doing real damage if/when your main target is already well into execute range. Heavies only hit 2 additional targets, sadly this isn't a lightning staff. I haven't tried the new Caltrops, but they seem really legit on paper. Breath is ok but not enough on its own.
When it comes to pure AoE, Steel Tornado is still miles better than anything in the 2H toolkit, especially with the new Master at Arms passive. Heck, it's still better even with 3x reduce cost glyph instead of 3x WD.

Bladerunner1

Xvorg wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Before I get into the builds I've tried and the specifics, I'd like to point out that I'm nowhere near as skilled as half the people I've gotten to know in-game even though I've been playing the game for a few years. I'm not really on the floor that the devs describe, but my fumbling fingers have kept me far away from the ceiling.

I've been playing a Stamblade for years and found out that I manage to get 25k self buffed dps on the target skeleton using easy-to-get gear, like Hundings, Kra'gh and Spriggan. I love the burst and the infinite sustain on live, the dps can go as high as my spazzy fingers can manage while trying to keep up with global timers, which isn't all that great for me.

Recently I've started seriously trying out my stamina DPS Dragonknight when I have time, and I'm topping out around 20k dps while trying to follow a starter meta dungeon skill build I saw online. Again I'm using spriggans, hundings, Kra'gh, mostly purple armor with gold sharpened weapons. I was thinking the DK should have more DPS since there's an extra DOT that my NB is missing, but there's no major fracture available and it all feels so clunky to me, I don't like spamming flurry and waiting for skills to finish.

After reading about the changes mentioned in the patch notes and reading suggestions from skilled players that heavy attacks would be the new meta for dragonknights, I thought I'd try out heavy attacks on live instead of the usual frantic global cooldown speed contest with my fingers. After applying molten armaments and using power buff pots, my dps was once again 20k. Allow me to reiterate, I switched to heavy attack weaving and my dps didn't drop on live!

For my next test I tossed the hundings bow aside and used another set of sharpened hundings daggers for my back bar because heavy attack weaving with a bow is such a big pain in the butt. I spammed heavy attack / Dot / heavy attack / DOT, weaving every DOT at my disposal, and my new DPS is 22,480 on my first attempt, that's a 14% increase in damage from easy-to-use DW heavy attack spam on live, my own personal best for the DK.

After Morrowind, won't this type of dps go up? Master at Arms would buff heavy attacks by 20%, right? And caltrops would get a buff.

What about my Nightblade? Heavy attack spam won't do nearly as much damage and siphoning attacks took such a huge hit that I don't even want to think about it. The bow DOT and the dual wield DOT my NB could use got more costly according to the patch notes, and the NB spammable damage skill is already too expensive and inefficient for Boss fights. My DK on the other hand has molten armaments and two cheap dots, including an AOE DOT.

TL-DR

Dual wield heavy attack spam is easy on the fingers and seems to be a part of the new meta rotation anyway? The bow heavy attack is annoying by comparison.

*Edit* *Below average* Stamina Dragonknights get a buff from this update that requires heavy attacks, and they're already set up with extra cheap DOTs.

Do you know that armaments gives you major sorc and that you are using the buff just for ONE type of atack (full heavy)?

Yes I know, and you may find that it's worth slotting anyway. Heavy attacks are maybe 40% of the DPS in my PTS test build and return lots of stamina with every swing. It's a perfect combination that lifted my stam DK over my stamblade in terms of DPS output on the PTS. This is my observation as an average/below average DPS, other players may experience things differently.

LorDrek

Need more variability than one way with HA.