What if... new trial is too easy? - Vet Halls of Fabrication - Question to ZOS

Meld777

To say it upfront, I have not gotten a closed beta invitation. I do not know what is actually going on on PTS. This question is purely hypothetical!

What if one or multiple guilds would have already completed vHoF (HM) on PTS? Would you make it harder for Live?
Are the trials on PTS easier in general for testing purposes?

I would really appreciate it if the trial took guilds about as long to complete as vMoL after its launch. As far as I remember no one made it even close to beating vMoL when it was on PTS back then. Not saying it's different now in vHoF. I obviously can't know that. But just hypothetically if it were like this...

@ZOS_GinaBruno

idk

Why are you tagging Gina I a purely hypothetical post? It would not make sense to expect her to reply on such a matter since there is no basis for the suggestions made other than to start a conversation with the rest of us.

LegendaryArcher

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Why are you tagging Gina I a purely hypothetical pots? It would not make sense to expect her to reply on such a matter since there is no basis for the suggestions made other than to start a conversation with the rest of us.

Because if his question wasn't hypothetical, he would be banned.

OutLaw_Nynx

Wait

How do you know it it's hard or not if you don't have beta access lol

idk

LegendaryArcher wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Why are you tagging Gina I a purely hypothetical pots? It would not make sense to expect her to reply on such a matter since there is no basis for the suggestions made other than to start a conversation with the rest of us.

Because if his question wasn't hypothetical, he would be banned.

By his own admission he could only pose a hypothetical question so my question is appropriate and unanswered.

Kay1

Due to the recent nerfs I don't think you have to worry about it, even if the mechanics are easy only very very good players will be able to maybe reach the final boss.

We cannot tell you anything but don't worry is not easy and the mechanics are not easier neither.

I am worried about people that want to get into Trials tho, they can completely forget it.

CultOfMMO

to committed players, everything will become easy eventually

for everyone else, clearing content will forever and ever be a myth

sadly 90% of ESO belongs in the latter

Ch4mpTW

CultOfMMO wrote: »

to committed players, everything will become easy eventually

for everyone else, clearing content will forever and ever be a myth

sadly 90% of ESO belongs in the latter

That's true. Sad. But true. Believe it or not, a vast majority of the player base still haven't beaten VMA. Let alone attempted it. As for VMoL? Pffft. Forget about it. I personally think that if we were to take every platform, and add-up all those who've beaten VMoL? It'd probably not even be 5% of the total player base. I'm just being honest. Then again, I don't think too many people care enough to even bother trying. And to those people, I don't blame them.

Runschei

Easy trial? Sustain is actually a thing now and you think HoF might be too easy?

idk

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

CultOfMMO wrote: »

to committed players, everything will become easy eventually

for everyone else, clearing content will forever and ever be a myth

sadly 90% of ESO belongs in the latter

That's true. Sad. But true. Believe it or not, a vast majority of the player base still haven't beaten VMA. Let alone attempted it. As for VMoL? Pffft. Forget about it. I personally think that if we were to take every platform, and add-up all those who've beaten VMoL? It'd probably not even be 5% of the total player base. I'm just being honest. Then again, I don't think too many people care enough to even bother trying. And to those people, I don't blame them.

Some are more interested than others. It all comes down to how one difines how they want to play.

jroc699_burr

lol farm before it gets buffed lol

Balamoor

The hard truth is Trials aren't really important enough to most people who play ESO to actually matter. ZoS sorta wedged Trials in as a bone for the uber gamers...which might 4 or 5% of the playerbase.

The new Trial probably won't be anything mind blowing, because ESO isn't a Raid centric game. In three years and you can count the number of Trials on one hand, that puts ESO in the Post Raid column of games.

Duiwel

This thread makes about as much sense as this picture OP.

Kay1

Balamoor wrote: »

The hard truth is Trials aren't really important enough to most people who play ESO to actually matter. ZoS sorta wedged Trials in as a bone for the uber gamers...which might 4 or 5% of the playerbase.

The new Trial probably won't be anything mind blowing, because ESO isn't a Raid centric game. In three years and you can count the number of Trials on one hand, that puts ESO in the Post Raid column of games.

That's very sad tho, it means raids are way too hard.

In my opinion they should adapt them more for average players and give the elite another mode who rewards them with gold gear, and skins should of course be for that hard mode.

You have games like Destiny who are 95% casuals and Raids are crowded and they are the second most played feature behind PvP.

idk

Kay1 wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

The hard truth is Trials aren't really important enough to most people who play ESO to actually matter. ZoS sorta wedged Trials in as a bone for the uber gamers...which might 4 or 5% of the playerbase.

The new Trial probably won't be anything mind blowing, because ESO isn't a Raid centric game. In three years and you can count the number of Trials on one hand, that puts ESO in the Post Raid column of games.

That's very sad tho, it means raids are way too hard.

In my opinion they should adapt them more for average players and give the elite another mode who rewards them with gold gear, and skins should of course be for that hard mode.

You have games like Destiny who are 95% casuals and Raids are crowded and they are the second most played feature behind PvP.

@Kay1

It really. First off there is normal trials as well.

Second off there is a great many players who enjoy playing as they want. They enjoy the game, but they hit like a wet noodle. Trials, even normal, should not be setup to be that easy or their would not be a point since many could sold a trial that easy.

Heck, someone posted a video this week of their solo kill on the first boss in normal MoL.

All this is irrelevant to the thread though. OP hasn't made a comment since he started this thread which probably says much that he/she is just trying to stir the pot and troll the forums.

F7sus4

Runschei wrote: »

Easy trial? Sustain is actually a thing now and you think HoF might be too easy?

Without ZOS changing forthcoming sustain any hardmode Trial will become a challenge. Especially DPS-race fights (Varlariel in vAA, Zhaj'hassa in vMOL and partially also vMOL Twins).

zaria

Kay1 wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

The hard truth is Trials aren't really important enough to most people who play ESO to actually matter. ZoS sorta wedged Trials in as a bone for the uber gamers...which might 4 or 5% of the playerbase.

The new Trial probably won't be anything mind blowing, because ESO isn't a Raid centric game. In three years and you can count the number of Trials on one hand, that puts ESO in the Post Raid column of games.

That's very sad tho, it means raids are way too hard.

In my opinion they should adapt them more for average players and give the elite another mode who rewards them with gold gear, and skins should of course be for that hard mode.

You have games like Destiny who are 95% casuals and Raids are crowded and they are the second most played feature behind PvP.

Don't agree here as you have normal trials. Problem is a bit to get in an group who teach you the mechanics and let you practice as group fall apart after a few wipes.

CultOfMMO

F7sus4 wrote: »

Runschei wrote: »

Easy trial? Sustain is actually a thing now and you think HoF might be too easy?

Without ZOS changing forthcoming sustain any hardmode Trial will become a challenge. Especially DPS-race fights (Varlariel in vAA, Zhaj'hassa in vMOL and partially also vMOL Twins).

The only dps race boss worth mentioning in this game is vAA hardmode, and I'm almost tempted to say this fight MUST be tuned if the sustain nerfs are as bad as they seem to be.

All other bosses can do done with lower dps checks than people make them out to be

Lord_Eomer

This post does not make any sense,

Any latest dungekn or trial release found by anyone easier?

ICP or SOTH or VMOL?

Even if it is easier then better for people to do!

Agalloch

I think the new Trial must be harder..look behind at MOL..is the hardest trial in the live server.

So I can presume when NDA will be lifted will know more about the HOF.

idk

frateanu.luiseb17_ESO wrote: »

I think the new Trial must be harder..look behind at MOL..is the hardest trial in the live server.

So I can presume when NDA will be lifted will know more about the HOF.

The increase is more with mechanica. It's normal that end game raids become more mechanic driven as more are developed. MoL isn't that hard as long as the mechanics are followed. Only one fight has a hard limit for length of the fight. Eventually no pillars spawn on the first boss of the fight lasts to long but it's a really long time.

Kay1

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Kay1 wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

The hard truth is Trials aren't really important enough to most people who play ESO to actually matter. ZoS sorta wedged Trials in as a bone for the uber gamers...which might 4 or 5% of the playerbase.

The new Trial probably won't be anything mind blowing, because ESO isn't a Raid centric game. In three years and you can count the number of Trials on one hand, that puts ESO in the Post Raid column of games.

That's very sad tho, it means raids are way too hard.

In my opinion they should adapt them more for average players and give the elite another mode who rewards them with gold gear, and skins should of course be for that hard mode.

You have games like Destiny who are 95% casuals and Raids are crowded and they are the second most played feature behind PvP.

@Kay1

It really. First off there is normal trials as well.

Second off there is a great many players who enjoy playing as they want. They enjoy the game, but they hit like a wet noodle. Trials, even normal, should not be setup to be that easy or their would not be a point since many could sold a trial that easy.

Heck, someone posted a video this week of their solo kill on the first boss in normal MoL.

All this is irrelevant to the thread though. OP hasn't made a comment since he started this thread which probably says much that he/she is just trying to stir the pot and troll the forums.

Yeah I know but normal trials doesn't have enough rewards to push people into doing more and more until they can do the vet version, the lack of trials tutorials is also there.

zaria wrote: »

Kay1 wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

The hard truth is Trials aren't really important enough to most people who play ESO to actually matter. ZoS sorta wedged Trials in as a bone for the uber gamers...which might 4 or 5% of the playerbase.

The new Trial probably won't be anything mind blowing, because ESO isn't a Raid centric game. In three years and you can count the number of Trials on one hand, that puts ESO in the Post Raid column of games.

That's very sad tho, it means raids are way too hard.

In my opinion they should adapt them more for average players and give the elite another mode who rewards them with gold gear, and skins should of course be for that hard mode.

You have games like Destiny who are 95% casuals and Raids are crowded and they are the second most played feature behind PvP.

Don't agree here as you have normal trials. Problem is a bit to get in an group who teach you the mechanics and let you practice as group fall apart after a few wipes.

The community is very elitist and once Morrowind goes live the elitism will get on another level and you will have to do a dps test to get into spindleclutch in vet.

A good tutorial will maybe help? I wish Zenimax will put more efforts into making Trials something possible for everyone and funny, they are in my opinion the funniest PvE content in this game and it's a shamr that only few of us can try them.

Meld777

I agree with most what was said here.

But let me elaborate a little bit on the topic. When vMoL just came out, it was extremely hard. On PTS, which was online for over a month, nobody was able to get past the 2nd boss. The first guild beat vMoL HM half a year into the content being on Live, my raid beat it a month after that, and Hodor beat it sometime in between.

But until we beat it - that was one awesome half a year of raiding: theorycrafting, trying different tactics, getting frustrated over and over again. I was raiding with 2 different guilds, overall 5 times a week, for over 4 months, trying to beat it. It was awesome to open the vMoL leaderboard and see that there is content that is so hard, no one has beaten it yet.

And even after we beat it, it wasn't the easiest thing to do it over and over again. We still had to follow mechanics, do lunar phase, etc. But that was when 25k single target DPS was what 55k ST is today. Then came the power creep and great tactics turned into stack and whack. But that's the normal way of MMO life. As many of you mentioned, it's still a minority of people that are even able to complete vMA and vMoL.

It might sound elitist and selfish, but the reason I created this thread is I don't want vHoF to come to Live in stack and whack shape to begin with! I want to experience it the same way I experienced vMoL. And this is not the case if people are completing it on Vet HM already on PTS. Which I of course can't know about... just have that weird gut feeling.

It took so much dedicated teamwork to get vMoL HM, no death, all achievements. I wish vHoF was the same. But even for those who haven't completed vMA/vMoL yet, isn't it a good feeling to know that there is still a lot of room for improvement?

idk

@Kay1

Normal trials do little to prepare someone for vet so the connection is kinds mute. The mechanics in the existing normal trials can be ignored in almost every case.

Casual guilds can do the vet trials. It is merely a choice. A causal guild I run with chose to do get. Set requirements for those who enacted to run vet trials. Those that didn't cut it are backups if they ge enough of the ones who have passed.

The struggles and eventually got all three craglorn trials cleared and are working on the twins in vMoL. The guild is very much casual but they chose to do more and those that went with the choice are really doing well.

I'm proud of ther accomplishments and if proves that anyone who wants to do vet trials on live can. It takes a choice and desire to move forward and improve.

Further, there are plenty of trial tutorials. No one in their right mind reinvents the wheel and no one in their right mind blindly goes into vet trials without reviewing what is available. The groups with the initial clears publish plenty of information including videos. Plenty of tutorials out there. It's an excuse to say otherwise.

Your comments about elitism are also misplaced. Those with elitist attitudes are often not elite. I think they're more bitter that they are not the strongest so they take it out ok others.

Their is an assortment of guilds. Some that are great training guilds and others that are great for starting out in the game. Any guild that takes raiding vet trials seriously will have requirements since a certain amount of requirement and general skill is required to meet their objectives. They also have people to help other players improve.

If all comes down to a choice. Excuses are just a statement of what choice has been made.

Meld777

Bad elitists will always exist and infect the community with false "DPS check tactics".

Fact is, when we completed vMoL for the first time, 20 - 25k DPS was what our DDs had.

When I completed vMA for the first time? Don't even ask. I had not only ~300 CP, but the meta was also different. Sustained DPS without support? Slightly above 10k maybe? And all the guides didn't exist yet. Even my first flawless run took me 90 min or so. 3 times as long as it takes me now. That shows the extent of the power creep in 1.5 years.

So if anyone tells you you need better gear/higher DPS for the content that's been around for 1.5 years? Hell no! Higher DPS makes it easier, you can skip mechanics, but if you choose not to skip them, it's still possible. The only real DPS check boss in game is the 1st boss in vMoL. And 20k per DD is more than enough to beat him. Every other boss can be beaten by simply following the game's mechanics. Even with 10k DPS.

F7sus4

CultOfMMO wrote: »

F7sus4 wrote: »

Runschei wrote: »

Easy trial? Sustain is actually a thing now and you think HoF might be too easy?

Without ZOS changing forthcoming sustain any hardmode Trial will become a challenge. Especially DPS-race fights (Varlariel in vAA, Zhaj'hassa in vMOL and partially also vMOL Twins).

The only dps race boss worth mentioning in this game is vAA hardmode, and I'm almost tempted to say this fight MUST be tuned if the sustain nerfs are as bad as they seem to be.

All other bosses can do done with lower dps checks than people make them out to be

This is general notice for current PTS raid meta. After clearing all the mentioned above in 3.0.x we can easily tell they have a great potential of becoming a struggle for semi-pro/mid-place level raiding teams. PTS vMOL Twins with 5+ prayer phases not being anything super unexpected with gimped group DPS output will require some additional coordination and extraordinary ads placement management. Bye-bye to Rakkat 5/6th platform kill. The list is long and the conclusion is simple - the best teams will still suceed whereas the mid-ground ones will probably be prevented from clearing the content soon again.

Meld777 wrote: »

Bad elitists will always exist and infect the community with false "DPS check tactics".

Those "bad elitists" usually have higher DPS numbers in mind with the only intention to have a smooth run as low DPS obviously introduces more hassle and prevents skipping mechanics. Group panic-wipe in that scenario is also possible.

zaria

Kay1 wrote: »

The community is very elitist and once Morrowind goes live the elitism will get on another level and you will have to do a dps test to get into spindleclutch in vet.

A good tutorial will maybe help? I wish Zenimax will put more efforts into making Trials something possible for everyone and funny, they are in my opinion the funniest PvE content in this game and it's a shamr that only few of us can try them.

Many guilds are very elitists, I drop them fast
And yes they will get serious issues then Morrowind, lots of new players and lots of old QQ.
Extinction level events are good for something, had not Mexico taken an big one we would be Argonians

Tutorials for dungeons yes, think the undaunted boot camp was my idea, make it an stereotype parody with the grizzled Orc sergeant and the nose in the sky Altmer instructor.
However this would be general, for mechanic you have to rely on group.

MasterSpatula

Doesn't ZOS tend to release dungeons/trials as extra hard for a while, then nerf them when a new "hardest" one comes out. I feel fairly safe in saying the new trial will be plenty hard, at least until the next trial is released.

Of course, that's no less speculation than the OP's post. But I think history shows it to be a bit more likely.

F7sus4

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Doesn't ZOS tend to release dungeons/trials as extra hard for a while, then nerf them when a new "hardest" one comes out. I feel fairly safe in saying the new trial will be plenty hard, at least until the next trial is released.

Works on both levels as usually they nerf the content a bit and also slowly increase the CP cap. A friendly reminder that we still had VR16 when vMOL was first released.

max_only

Can we stop with the "game is too easy"? :v

Use your imagination to create a build that isn't number crunched to death but feels fun playing. Use crafted sets. Animation cancel more by accident instead of training for a twitch marathon.

There are masochistic games out there yknow, try Flappy Bird ferchrissakes

Izaki

max_only wrote: »

Can we stop with the "game is too easy"? :v

Use your imagination to create a build that isn't number crunched to death but feels fun playing. Use crafted sets. Animation cancel more by accident instead of training for a twitch marathon.

There are masochistic games out there yknow, try Flappy Bird ferchrissakes

What's the point of making the game artificially hard? None.