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In response to the ongoing issue, the North American PC/Mac megaserver is currently unavailable while we perform maintenance. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656543/temporarily-taking-down-the-pts-the-pc-na-live-server
constitution change isn't needed
-
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭People whining about wrath on heavy prove how dumb the vast majority of players are in this game... same with people saying most players are nothing but heavy in pvp... which is completely untrue...
the people that don´t die are in heavy.
which skews perception as those fights are more noticeable and kinda annoying.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Stamden✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am really not a huge fan of the huge Constitution nerf. All the resource management is already going to make medium and light armor a much more appealing option than heavy.
Plus tanking just feels that much worse now, in addition to the changes to things like block and resource-giving synergies.PC NA
~Currently taking a break from the game until my DK can become something more than just a crafter~1 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Constitution didnt rly need a nerf, but Wrath passive did, or the heavy atk resource return part of Rapid Mending does.
PC EU
PvP only0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭
This whole thread started with false numbers. Go back and read again.Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »All I'm seeing throughout the replies here are people complaining that someone in pvp can survive their one shot gank build. This is the root of all problems in this game, overly vocal pvpers -_-
Thats pretty much it, if you make a tankable dps build they whine, if you go full on block build tank they whine.
They just hate heavy armor. You can't win
No they hate heavy armor cause it offers way too much. And providing wrong numbers to dispute that wont change anything. Someone would think that after all the bs u were writing some time ago providing ridiculously false and illogical numbers to prove how heavy armor isnt that good that you would think twice before opening this conversation again. But here you are again. Telling everyone to L2P and defending heavy armor with what else, false numbers again.
Bruh heavy armor is fine. Even with this nerf you will still QQ anyways. L2P.
[Edit]
Please elaborate on my "False Numbers"
I know how to play. I know heavy armor is OP cause i play in heavy armor. If anyone has issues with the game here then its you. You are the usual ignorant player providing false numbers in forums and when people expose you, you start the L2P bs because u dont know what else to say. Heavy armor is getting nerfed. Get over it. Now u may be the one who has to L2P.
Btw did you learn how much penetration maces give? Or do u still believe that its 13k?
I know its getting nerfed I will adjust to It.
You however will still QQ even after the nerf you people find any excuse to whine about heavy armor players
and No I don't believe it's 13K penetration I miscalculated. Now Rejoice and celebrate since you needed to nerf heavy to L2P.Edited by Anti_Virus on April 25, 2017 3:14PMPower Wealth And Influence.0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »no it is very much needed! I am sick and tired of no skilled gamers hopping into heavy amor and then feel super strong cause they can sustain so much.
However, it's the wrong fix they get sustain through heavy attack passive that gives you 25% more resources back. this passive needs to go and heavy will be perfectly fine
Perfect example of ignorance here^^.
He's also stating facts. PvP has become filled with casuals who as NRG says, hop into heavy armour and can sustain forever while being impossible to kill when they are in a zerg because they're in heavy armour.
Constitution should be gutted completely. If anything the only way to sustain in heavy is through heavy attacks imo. I'm so looking forward to everyone going back to light/medium armour and some actual skill returning to cyrodiil even though proc sets will return to the meta, it's much better than the current meta.
These are not "facts" at all majority of players in PVP wear Light Armor, followed by medium then heavy according to Zos Rich Lamberts data in a thread called "Hard Data" he came in and debunked a rediculous claim that heavy is over used and its not. Stop with the lunacy.
That data is almost a year old now. Well before the heavy armor meta set in.
I know but if you have proof that heavy is over used let me see it otherwise its all anecdotal and a lie.Edited by Anti_Virus on April 25, 2017 2:59PMPower Wealth And Influence.1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Constitution didnt rly need a nerf, but Wrath passive did, or the heavy atk resource return part of Rapid Mending does.
Both got nerfed in the more recent live patches.
Wrath got harder to stack and keep up and resource return received a flatout 50% nerf.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Valencer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »no it is very much needed! I am sick and tired of no skilled gamers hopping into heavy amor and then feel super strong cause they can sustain so much.
However, it's the wrong fix they get sustain through heavy attack passive that gives you 25% more resources back. this passive needs to go and heavy will be perfectly fine
Perfect example of ignorance here^^.
He's also stating facts. PvP has become filled with casuals who as NRG says, hop into heavy armour and can sustain forever while being impossible to kill when they are in a zerg because they're in heavy armour.
Constitution should be gutted completely. If anything the only way to sustain in heavy is through heavy attacks imo. I'm so looking forward to everyone going back to light/medium armour and some actual skill returning to cyrodiil even though proc sets will return to the meta, it's much better than the current meta.
These are not "facts" at all majority of players in PVP wear Light Armor, followed by medium then heavy according to Zos Rich Lamberts data in a thread called "Hard Data" he came in and debunked a rediculous claim that heavy is over used and its not. Stop with the lunacy.
That data is almost a year old now. Well before the heavy armor meta set in.
I know but if yoy have proof that heavy is over used let me see it otherwise its all anecdotal and a lie.
Open your Alliance War overview by pressing L, go to the Campaigns tab.
Home or guest a campaign of your choice (Im gonna go ahead and assume you havent been in Cyrodiil yet) and then hover over the campaign you picked and press E to queue.3 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am really not a huge fan of the huge Constitution nerf. All the resource management is already going to make medium and light armor a much more appealing option than heavy.
Plus tanking just feels that much worse now, in addition to the changes to things like block and resource-giving synergies.
The constitution nerf won't effect heavy all that much infact it needed to be toned down since LA and MAs cost reduction was nerfed , but Losing the cost reduction and class sustain nerfs is the real bane of heavy at this point. I used heavy back when constitution only gave 300 back every 4 secs and it was fine.
So all the heavy haters that are jumping for joy are at a loss here, even if it was returned to pre imperial city buff it wouldn't hurt it all that much.
[Edit]
We will probably see a shift to Stam Sorc tanks in pvp since their sustain machanic hasn't been touched. Dark deal will be more than enough to sustain in heavy, and possibly stam NBsEdited by Anti_Virus on April 25, 2017 3:20PMPower Wealth And Influence.1 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »no it is very much needed! I am sick and tired of no skilled gamers hopping into heavy amor and then feel super strong cause they can sustain so much.
However, it's the wrong fix they get sustain through heavy attack passive that gives you 25% more resources back. this passive needs to go and heavy will be perfectly fine
Perfect example of ignorance here^^.
He's also stating facts. PvP has become filled with casuals who as NRG says, hop into heavy armour and can sustain forever while being impossible to kill when they are in a zerg because they're in heavy armour.
Constitution should be gutted completely. If anything the only way to sustain in heavy is through heavy attacks imo. I'm so looking forward to everyone going back to light/medium armour and some actual skill returning to cyrodiil even though proc sets will return to the meta, it's much better than the current meta.
These are not "facts" at all majority of players in PVP wear Light Armor, followed by medium then heavy according to Zos Rich Lamberts data in a thread called "Hard Data" he came in and debunked a rediculous claim that heavy is over used and its not. Stop with the lunacy.
That data is almost a year old now. Well before the heavy armor meta set in.
I know but if yoy have proof that heavy is over used let me see it otherwise its all anecdotal and a lie.
Open your Alliance War overview by pressing L, go to the Campaigns tab.
Home or guest a campaign of your choice (Im gonna go ahead and assume you havent been in Cyrodiil yet) and then hover over the campaign you picked and press E to queue.
Lol took me a minute to get what you're saying but its still anecdotal:/Power Wealth And Influence.0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »
This whole thread started with false numbers. Go back and read again.Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »All I'm seeing throughout the replies here are people complaining that someone in pvp can survive their one shot gank build. This is the root of all problems in this game, overly vocal pvpers -_-
Thats pretty much it, if you make a tankable dps build they whine, if you go full on block build tank they whine.
They just hate heavy armor. You can't win
No they hate heavy armor cause it offers way too much. And providing wrong numbers to dispute that wont change anything. Someone would think that after all the bs u were writing some time ago providing ridiculously false and illogical numbers to prove how heavy armor isnt that good that you would think twice before opening this conversation again. But here you are again. Telling everyone to L2P and defending heavy armor with what else, false numbers again.
Bruh heavy armor is fine. Even with this nerf you will still QQ anyways. L2P.
[Edit]
Please elaborate on my "False Numbers"
I know how to play. I know heavy armor is OP cause i play in heavy armor. If anyone has issues with the game here then its you. You are the usual ignorant player providing false numbers in forums and when people expose you, you start the L2P bs because u dont know what else to say. Heavy armor is getting nerfed. Get over it. Now u may be the one who has to L2P.
Btw did you learn how much penetration maces give? Or do u still believe that its 13k?
I know its getting nerfed I will adjust to It.
You however will still QQ even after the nerf you people find any excuse to whine about heavy armor players
and No I don't believe it's 13K penetration I miscalculated. Now Rejoice and celebrate since you needed to nerf heavy to L2P.
But you are the one whining now, not me. Light, medium and heavy got nerfed and u jumped right into a thread about defending heavy armor and reverting only heavy nerfs. A thread that is based on false numbers of cource like last time. And just like last time when you dont know what to say, u just begin with the L2P crap. Seems like a trend.
Hint: Telling people to L2P without having anything to back up ur statements doesnt make u look. It makes u look dumb.3 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anti_Virus wrote: »
This whole thread started with false numbers. Go back and read again.Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »All I'm seeing throughout the replies here are people complaining that someone in pvp can survive their one shot gank build. This is the root of all problems in this game, overly vocal pvpers -_-
Thats pretty much it, if you make a tankable dps build they whine, if you go full on block build tank they whine.
They just hate heavy armor. You can't win
No they hate heavy armor cause it offers way too much. And providing wrong numbers to dispute that wont change anything. Someone would think that after all the bs u were writing some time ago providing ridiculously false and illogical numbers to prove how heavy armor isnt that good that you would think twice before opening this conversation again. But here you are again. Telling everyone to L2P and defending heavy armor with what else, false numbers again.
Bruh heavy armor is fine. Even with this nerf you will still QQ anyways. L2P.
[Edit]
Please elaborate on my "False Numbers"
I know how to play. I know heavy armor is OP cause i play in heavy armor. If anyone has issues with the game here then its you. You are the usual ignorant player providing false numbers in forums and when people expose you, you start the L2P bs because u dont know what else to say. Heavy armor is getting nerfed. Get over it. Now u may be the one who has to L2P.
Btw did you learn how much penetration maces give? Or do u still believe that its 13k?
I know its getting nerfed I will adjust to It.
You however will still QQ even after the nerf you people find any excuse to whine about heavy armor players
and No I don't believe it's 13K penetration I miscalculated. Now Rejoice and celebrate since you needed to nerf heavy to L2P.
But you are the one whining now, not me. Light, medium and heavy got nerfed and u jumped right into a thread about defending heavy armor and reverting only heavy nerfs. A thread that is based on false numbers of cource like last time. And just like last time when you dont know what to say, u just begin with the L2P crap. Seems like a trend.
Hint: Telling people to L2P without having anything to back up ur statements doesnt make u look. It makes u look dumb.
I never complained about the changes all I did was reply to a post saying "noobs wear heavy armor" and that its "OP"
Don't worry 1 month into Morrowind I will still see you crying about heavy armor on the forums oh and L2P means (Learn To Play) if you really needed to nerf heavy to be satisfied then its a L2P issue.
-Resource Poisons
- High Penetration
- Unblockable attacks
- Defile
Heavy isn't OP at all its just you man. Edited by Anti_Virus on April 27, 2017 12:09AMPower Wealth And Influence.0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This nerf is well deserved anyone who thinks you should be a tank plus dps/healer is the type of player who likes to be cancer in PVP....you sir are a fool this nerf needed to happen months ago. Please go play little big planet players like you don't add value to the game.
Tank =/= Heavy armor userSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
Rinmaethodain✭✭✭✭✭
✭A prime example of PVP feedback ruining builds in PVE, thats why ZOS should long time ago completely separate PVP from PVE
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4055913#Comment_4055913
Lets all go back in time to Dark Brotherhood DLC and adjustements to Heavy Armor in there.
ZOS removed Bracing Passive which greatly increased block cost, added Wraith Passive (absolutely useless in PVE) and in exchange gave PVE tanks a buff to Constitution Passive that was used as part of PR campaign by @Wrobel to justify that change (we even learend some details about exact block formulas where ofc buffed constitution was added as a benefit).
This change in Morrowind Patch is completely reverting this buff just to satisfy PVP players.
What are PVE tanks left with? Absolutely nothing:
- No Bracing
- Constitution nerf brings it almost back to what it was before Dark Broterhood
- Useless Wrath passive0 -
Stamden✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anti_Virus wrote: »I am really not a huge fan of the huge Constitution nerf. All the resource management is already going to make medium and light armor a much more appealing option than heavy.
Plus tanking just feels that much worse now, in addition to the changes to things like block and resource-giving synergies.
The constitution nerf won't effect heavy all that much infact it needed to be toned down since LA and MAs cost reduction was nerfed , but Losing the cost reduction and class sustain nerfs is the real bane of heavy at this point. I used heavy back when constitution only gave 300 back every 4 secs and it was fine.
So all the heavy haters that are jumping for joy are at a loss here, even if it was returned to pre imperial city buff it wouldn't hurt it all that much.
[Edit]
We will probably see a shift to Stam Sorc tanks in pvp since their sustain machanic hasn't been touched. Dark deal will be more than enough to sustain in heavy, and possibly stam NBs
Oh I agree. The Constitution nerf blows, but the real nail in the coffin for heavy armor is all of the other sustain changes. Even if they did revert the Constitution nerf, it would still be really hard to justify going heavy with how sustain-oriented the meta will become.
And yes, Dark Deal really needs to be looked at. Right now they are the only class that could even have a chance at running heavy. I would like to see them removed the Constitution nerf and work on making Dark Deal less OP.PC NA
~Currently taking a break from the game until my DK can become something more than just a crafter~2 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »
This whole thread started with false numbers. Go back and read again.Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »All I'm seeing throughout the replies here are people complaining that someone in pvp can survive their one shot gank build. This is the root of all problems in this game, overly vocal pvpers -_-
Thats pretty much it, if you make a tankable dps build they whine, if you go full on block build tank they whine.
They just hate heavy armor. You can't win
No they hate heavy armor cause it offers way too much. And providing wrong numbers to dispute that wont change anything. Someone would think that after all the bs u were writing some time ago providing ridiculously false and illogical numbers to prove how heavy armor isnt that good that you would think twice before opening this conversation again. But here you are again. Telling everyone to L2P and defending heavy armor with what else, false numbers again.
Bruh heavy armor is fine. Even with this nerf you will still QQ anyways. L2P.
[Edit]
Please elaborate on my "False Numbers"
I know how to play. I know heavy armor is OP cause i play in heavy armor. If anyone has issues with the game here then its you. You are the usual ignorant player providing false numbers in forums and when people expose you, you start the L2P bs because u dont know what else to say. Heavy armor is getting nerfed. Get over it. Now u may be the one who has to L2P.
Btw did you learn how much penetration maces give? Or do u still believe that its 13k?
I know its getting nerfed I will adjust to It.
You however will still QQ even after the nerf you people find any excuse to whine about heavy armor players
and No I don't believe it's 13K penetration I miscalculated. Now Rejoice and celebrate since you needed to nerf heavy to L2P.
But you are the one whining now, not me. Light, medium and heavy got nerfed and u jumped right into a thread about defending heavy armor and reverting only heavy nerfs. A thread that is based on false numbers of cource like last time. And just like last time when you dont know what to say, u just begin with the L2P crap. Seems like a trend.
Hint: Telling people to L2P without having anything to back up ur statements doesnt make u look. It makes u look dumb.
I never complained about the changes all I did was reply to a post saying "noobs wear heavy armor" and that its "OP"
Don't worry 1 month into Morrowind I will still see you crying about heavy armor on the forums oh and L2P means (Learn To Play) if you really needed to nerf heavy to be satisfied then its a L2P issue.
-Resource Poisons
- High Penetration
- Unblockable attacks
- Defile
Heavy isn't OP at all its just you man.
Yes i know what L2P means and no its not just me. You are literally living in an imaginary world. The point is that you are trying to prove that heavy armor isnt OP with ridiculous statements and false numbers and then you go on with the L2P crap. No matter how many times you tell people to L2P, it wont make you look good. I am playing in heavy medium and light armor and im saying that heavy is miles better than medium and light. I dont need to L2P and if u are actually playing in light medium and heavy and u find them to be balanced then probably you are the one that needs to L2P.0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »
This whole thread started with false numbers. Go back and read again.Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »All I'm seeing throughout the replies here are people complaining that someone in pvp can survive their one shot gank build. This is the root of all problems in this game, overly vocal pvpers -_-
Thats pretty much it, if you make a tankable dps build they whine, if you go full on block build tank they whine.
They just hate heavy armor. You can't win
No they hate heavy armor cause it offers way too much. And providing wrong numbers to dispute that wont change anything. Someone would think that after all the bs u were writing some time ago providing ridiculously false and illogical numbers to prove how heavy armor isnt that good that you would think twice before opening this conversation again. But here you are again. Telling everyone to L2P and defending heavy armor with what else, false numbers again.
Bruh heavy armor is fine. Even with this nerf you will still QQ anyways. L2P.
[Edit]
Please elaborate on my "False Numbers"
I know how to play. I know heavy armor is OP cause i play in heavy armor. If anyone has issues with the game here then its you. You are the usual ignorant player providing false numbers in forums and when people expose you, you start the L2P bs because u dont know what else to say. Heavy armor is getting nerfed. Get over it. Now u may be the one who has to L2P.
Btw did you learn how much penetration maces give? Or do u still believe that its 13k?
I know its getting nerfed I will adjust to It.
You however will still QQ even after the nerf you people find any excuse to whine about heavy armor players
and No I don't believe it's 13K penetration I miscalculated. Now Rejoice and celebrate since you needed to nerf heavy to L2P.
But you are the one whining now, not me. Light, medium and heavy got nerfed and u jumped right into a thread about defending heavy armor and reverting only heavy nerfs. A thread that is based on false numbers of cource like last time. And just like last time when you dont know what to say, u just begin with the L2P crap. Seems like a trend.
Hint: Telling people to L2P without having anything to back up ur statements doesnt make u look. It makes u look dumb.
I never complained about the changes all I did was reply to a post saying "noobs wear heavy armor" and that its "OP"
Don't worry 1 month into Morrowind I will still see you crying about heavy armor on the forums oh and L2P means (Learn To Play) if you really needed to nerf heavy to be satisfied then its a L2P issue.
-Resource Poisons
- High Penetration
- Unblockable attacks
- Defile
Heavy isn't OP at all its just you man.
Yes i know what L2P means and no its not just me. You are literally living in an imaginary world. The point is that you are trying to prove that heavy armor isnt OP with ridiculous statements and false numbers and then you go on with the L2P crap. No matter how many times you tell people to L2P, it wont make you look good. I am playing in heavy medium and light armor and im saying that heavy is miles better than medium and light. I dont need to L2P and if u are actually playing in light medium and heavy and u find them to be balanced then probably you are the one that needs to L2P.
Yeah the armors are balanced.Power Wealth And Influence.0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »Blackfyre20 wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »
Wrong and i'll explain why...
Constitution requires you to get hit and only procs every 4 secs, while medium and light give a passive recovery active all the time. In addtion they both give COST reduction which is infinitely superior to regen.
I agree remove the wrath pasive is doen't make a difference to me I would like my 20% block cost back.
200WD or SD is inferior to 12 PERCENT of your WD from medium and even that is inferior to LA Spell pen.
Also if heavy was just forced to be defensive then what do you think heavy armor users would do? They would all be block tanks which people like you would still cry about. Heavy armor has been neglected until the Dark Brotherhood patch and now that its useful you want to see it destroyed again.
You're right LA has a place in cyrodil which is why the majority of pvpers wear LA, this claim is backed by @ZOS_RichLambert himself who release a chart with data proving that 501+ CP players wear mostly Light armor with medium being the second popular and heavy the last.
I'll link the thread where he posted the chart lest he doen't come here an post.
If you believe heavy armor is OP that fine it's your opinion you are entitled to one, but to claim that opinion as fact if pure dogmatism.
[Edit]
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/comment/3370532#Comment_3370532
First of all, I want to point out that I think the numbers for constitution in my post were off. I was just using the numbers from the OP to show why constitution is not "garbage" but I don't think the resource return is actually 1500 every 4 seconds without black rose.
As I said in my post I don't have an issue with the resource management heavy armor provides. However, constitution's "weakness" as you would like to make it seem (that you have to get hit to return resources) is also its biggest strength. It allows you to return stamina while blocking or magicka while in mist form. I'd also like to point out that cost reduction is not "infinitely superior to regen." If this were the case, everyone would have their cost reduction CP tree maxed out and running cost reduction instead of regen on their jewelry (if you need a sustain enchant) which is often not optimal. For someone throwing around the word dogmatism I'd advise you to take a look at your own glass house first. Last thing on constitution is that it is a flat value and does not require you to invest in any regen. Putting on black rose might be looked at as such an investment but the problem is you're also getting a ton of damage. Someone with light seducer or lich on is not really getting any damage out of the set. So to benefit from the % regen in light or medium you have to heavily invest in said regen to begin with, which you don't have to do in heavy armor.
About the wrath passive, while it is inferior to the medium and light bonuses, it is certainly not negligible as you would make it seem. I'm not advocating for forcing heavy armor users to be defensive, but they should not get any offensive bonus from wearing heavy armor. Feel free to put on offensive sets, but I don't think the heavy armor itself should be providing any type of offensive bonus.
Finally, that chart doesn't mean much to me. First of all I'd be interested to see when/how that data was collected. It's not a survey it didn't look like so how can this data collector tell what exactly each one of my characters is wearing when in cyrodiil. I both PVP and PVE which I assume most people do and if you are a dps then you'll never wear heavy for PVE. Also I am always trying different sets so which setup shows up in this data? I'm not saying the data is BS, just saying it'd be tough to collect actual meaningful info and I'd be interested how it's done. That aside, just because a lot of people are doing something doesn't mean that it's a good thing. As I said I like to wear medium armor on my stam characters often because I don't like to mindlessly follow the meta and it's fun to challenge myself a bit. If I actually wanted to be the best PVPer I could be I'd throw on black rose, viper, and tremorscale/velidreth/selene (which I have done before, just feels dirty).
Bottom line, when you put on heavy armor you are not making many meaningful sacrifices and are gaining free resistance. I've seen a lot of people counter with the fact that people stack penetration to tear through heavy armor but that argument doesn't make any sense. Sure maybe they do just that but that just means they'd tear through light/medium even faster. Nobody is over penetrating someone in full heavy armor so at the end of the day it is making some sort of difference. Also sure, light armor is definitely strong when combined with shields. Since shield duration being lowered to 6 seconds though you are taking a hit to your quality of life when you put on light armor because you have to constantly make sure you have your shields up lest you get insta-gibbed by any average player, which also takes more skill. Your stamina management is also much tougher in light which isn't much of a concern in heavy. It is my opinion that heavy armor is OP in the current state, especially when combined with black rose.
Excellent post. I don't want to get to hostile with ya.
[Edit]
Addtionaly I would like to say that heavy armor is weak either, certain sets to make it OverPreform(Black Rose) and should be looked at but all in all I believe that heavy is in a good spot.
Personally i think:
The wraith passive should be halved.
The healing bonus should go
The constitution should only give 1 resource back, which ever is your highest.
This will force those stam heavy armor users who can put on a heavy set and take full advantage of the magicka return to get 100% sustain so they'll actually drop some of their 100% dmg gear for cost reduction or something.
Agree with everything except for healing received passive I love that passive.
That was from months ago where u literally admitted that heavy should be nerfed. You know the same thread that u were giving false numbers to also defend heavy armor. And in this very thread u admitted that constitution needs to be toned down. And at the same time u are telling everyone that dont want the heavy armor nerfs reverted to L2P Got to make up ur mind. You cant even agree with urself. But ok i understand. You are just the usual troll telling everyone to L2P cause it makes u feel good.0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anti_Virus wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »Blackfyre20 wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »
Wrong and i'll explain why...
Constitution requires you to get hit and only procs every 4 secs, while medium and light give a passive recovery active all the time. In addtion they both give COST reduction which is infinitely superior to regen.
I agree remove the wrath pasive is doen't make a difference to me I would like my 20% block cost back.
200WD or SD is inferior to 12 PERCENT of your WD from medium and even that is inferior to LA Spell pen.
Also if heavy was just forced to be defensive then what do you think heavy armor users would do? They would all be block tanks which people like you would still cry about. Heavy armor has been neglected until the Dark Brotherhood patch and now that its useful you want to see it destroyed again.
You're right LA has a place in cyrodil which is why the majority of pvpers wear LA, this claim is backed by @ZOS_RichLambert himself who release a chart with data proving that 501+ CP players wear mostly Light armor with medium being the second popular and heavy the last.
I'll link the thread where he posted the chart lest he doen't come here an post.
If you believe heavy armor is OP that fine it's your opinion you are entitled to one, but to claim that opinion as fact if pure dogmatism.
[Edit]
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/comment/3370532#Comment_3370532
First of all, I want to point out that I think the numbers for constitution in my post were off. I was just using the numbers from the OP to show why constitution is not "garbage" but I don't think the resource return is actually 1500 every 4 seconds without black rose.
As I said in my post I don't have an issue with the resource management heavy armor provides. However, constitution's "weakness" as you would like to make it seem (that you have to get hit to return resources) is also its biggest strength. It allows you to return stamina while blocking or magicka while in mist form. I'd also like to point out that cost reduction is not "infinitely superior to regen." If this were the case, everyone would have their cost reduction CP tree maxed out and running cost reduction instead of regen on their jewelry (if you need a sustain enchant) which is often not optimal. For someone throwing around the word dogmatism I'd advise you to take a look at your own glass house first. Last thing on constitution is that it is a flat value and does not require you to invest in any regen. Putting on black rose might be looked at as such an investment but the problem is you're also getting a ton of damage. Someone with light seducer or lich on is not really getting any damage out of the set. So to benefit from the % regen in light or medium you have to heavily invest in said regen to begin with, which you don't have to do in heavy armor.
About the wrath passive, while it is inferior to the medium and light bonuses, it is certainly not negligible as you would make it seem. I'm not advocating for forcing heavy armor users to be defensive, but they should not get any offensive bonus from wearing heavy armor. Feel free to put on offensive sets, but I don't think the heavy armor itself should be providing any type of offensive bonus.
Finally, that chart doesn't mean much to me. First of all I'd be interested to see when/how that data was collected. It's not a survey it didn't look like so how can this data collector tell what exactly each one of my characters is wearing when in cyrodiil. I both PVP and PVE which I assume most people do and if you are a dps then you'll never wear heavy for PVE. Also I am always trying different sets so which setup shows up in this data? I'm not saying the data is BS, just saying it'd be tough to collect actual meaningful info and I'd be interested how it's done. That aside, just because a lot of people are doing something doesn't mean that it's a good thing. As I said I like to wear medium armor on my stam characters often because I don't like to mindlessly follow the meta and it's fun to challenge myself a bit. If I actually wanted to be the best PVPer I could be I'd throw on black rose, viper, and tremorscale/velidreth/selene (which I have done before, just feels dirty).
Bottom line, when you put on heavy armor you are not making many meaningful sacrifices and are gaining free resistance. I've seen a lot of people counter with the fact that people stack penetration to tear through heavy armor but that argument doesn't make any sense. Sure maybe they do just that but that just means they'd tear through light/medium even faster. Nobody is over penetrating someone in full heavy armor so at the end of the day it is making some sort of difference. Also sure, light armor is definitely strong when combined with shields. Since shield duration being lowered to 6 seconds though you are taking a hit to your quality of life when you put on light armor because you have to constantly make sure you have your shields up lest you get insta-gibbed by any average player, which also takes more skill. Your stamina management is also much tougher in light which isn't much of a concern in heavy. It is my opinion that heavy armor is OP in the current state, especially when combined with black rose.
Excellent post. I don't want to get to hostile with ya.
[Edit]
Addtionaly I would like to say that heavy armor is weak either, certain sets to make it OverPreform(Black Rose) and should be looked at but all in all I believe that heavy is in a good spot.
Personally i think:
The wraith passive should be halved.
The healing bonus should go
The constitution should only give 1 resource back, which ever is your highest.
This will force those stam heavy armor users who can put on a heavy set and take full advantage of the magicka return to get 100% sustain so they'll actually drop some of their 100% dmg gear for cost reduction or something.
Agree with everything except for healing received passive I love that passive.
That was from months ago where u literally admitted that heavy should be nerfed. You know the same thread that u were giving false numbers to also defend heavy armor. And in this very thread u admitted that constitution needs to be toned down. And at the same time u are telling everyone that dont want the heavy armor nerfs reverted to L2P Got to make up ur mind. You cant even agree with urself. But ok i understand. You are just the usual troll telling everyone to L2P cause it makes u feel good.
Lol dude I never advocated for heavy to not be nerfed, all I did was debunk stupid claims that it is not OP, which it isn't silly people like you will say that it gives you "infinite sustain" not true It doesn't make you a god and you are not a scrub for using it.
I would have skipped this thread if I didn't read someone posting that "no skilled players wear heavy armor" and its meta even though that has been debunked.
2/10 Troll again.Edited by Anti_Virus on April 28, 2017 1:20AMPower Wealth And Influence.0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »Blackfyre20 wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »
Wrong and i'll explain why...
Constitution requires you to get hit and only procs every 4 secs, while medium and light give a passive recovery active all the time. In addtion they both give COST reduction which is infinitely superior to regen.
I agree remove the wrath pasive is doen't make a difference to me I would like my 20% block cost back.
200WD or SD is inferior to 12 PERCENT of your WD from medium and even that is inferior to LA Spell pen.
Also if heavy was just forced to be defensive then what do you think heavy armor users would do? They would all be block tanks which people like you would still cry about. Heavy armor has been neglected until the Dark Brotherhood patch and now that its useful you want to see it destroyed again.
You're right LA has a place in cyrodil which is why the majority of pvpers wear LA, this claim is backed by @ZOS_RichLambert himself who release a chart with data proving that 501+ CP players wear mostly Light armor with medium being the second popular and heavy the last.
I'll link the thread where he posted the chart lest he doen't come here an post.
If you believe heavy armor is OP that fine it's your opinion you are entitled to one, but to claim that opinion as fact if pure dogmatism.
[Edit]
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/comment/3370532#Comment_3370532
First of all, I want to point out that I think the numbers for constitution in my post were off. I was just using the numbers from the OP to show why constitution is not "garbage" but I don't think the resource return is actually 1500 every 4 seconds without black rose.
As I said in my post I don't have an issue with the resource management heavy armor provides. However, constitution's "weakness" as you would like to make it seem (that you have to get hit to return resources) is also its biggest strength. It allows you to return stamina while blocking or magicka while in mist form. I'd also like to point out that cost reduction is not "infinitely superior to regen." If this were the case, everyone would have their cost reduction CP tree maxed out and running cost reduction instead of regen on their jewelry (if you need a sustain enchant) which is often not optimal. For someone throwing around the word dogmatism I'd advise you to take a look at your own glass house first. Last thing on constitution is that it is a flat value and does not require you to invest in any regen. Putting on black rose might be looked at as such an investment but the problem is you're also getting a ton of damage. Someone with light seducer or lich on is not really getting any damage out of the set. So to benefit from the % regen in light or medium you have to heavily invest in said regen to begin with, which you don't have to do in heavy armor.
About the wrath passive, while it is inferior to the medium and light bonuses, it is certainly not negligible as you would make it seem. I'm not advocating for forcing heavy armor users to be defensive, but they should not get any offensive bonus from wearing heavy armor. Feel free to put on offensive sets, but I don't think the heavy armor itself should be providing any type of offensive bonus.
Finally, that chart doesn't mean much to me. First of all I'd be interested to see when/how that data was collected. It's not a survey it didn't look like so how can this data collector tell what exactly each one of my characters is wearing when in cyrodiil. I both PVP and PVE which I assume most people do and if you are a dps then you'll never wear heavy for PVE. Also I am always trying different sets so which setup shows up in this data? I'm not saying the data is BS, just saying it'd be tough to collect actual meaningful info and I'd be interested how it's done. That aside, just because a lot of people are doing something doesn't mean that it's a good thing. As I said I like to wear medium armor on my stam characters often because I don't like to mindlessly follow the meta and it's fun to challenge myself a bit. If I actually wanted to be the best PVPer I could be I'd throw on black rose, viper, and tremorscale/velidreth/selene (which I have done before, just feels dirty).
Bottom line, when you put on heavy armor you are not making many meaningful sacrifices and are gaining free resistance. I've seen a lot of people counter with the fact that people stack penetration to tear through heavy armor but that argument doesn't make any sense. Sure maybe they do just that but that just means they'd tear through light/medium even faster. Nobody is over penetrating someone in full heavy armor so at the end of the day it is making some sort of difference. Also sure, light armor is definitely strong when combined with shields. Since shield duration being lowered to 6 seconds though you are taking a hit to your quality of life when you put on light armor because you have to constantly make sure you have your shields up lest you get insta-gibbed by any average player, which also takes more skill. Your stamina management is also much tougher in light which isn't much of a concern in heavy. It is my opinion that heavy armor is OP in the current state, especially when combined with black rose.
Excellent post. I don't want to get to hostile with ya.
[Edit]
Addtionaly I would like to say that heavy armor is weak either, certain sets to make it OverPreform(Black Rose) and should be looked at but all in all I believe that heavy is in a good spot.
Personally i think:
The wraith passive should be halved.
The healing bonus should go
The constitution should only give 1 resource back, which ever is your highest.
This will force those stam heavy armor users who can put on a heavy set and take full advantage of the magicka return to get 100% sustain so they'll actually drop some of their 100% dmg gear for cost reduction or something.
Agree with everything except for healing received passive I love that passive.
That was from months ago where u literally admitted that heavy should be nerfed. You know the same thread that u were giving false numbers to also defend heavy armor. And in this very thread u admitted that constitution needs to be toned down. And at the same time u are telling everyone that dont want the heavy armor nerfs reverted to L2P Got to make up ur mind. You cant even agree with urself. But ok i understand. You are just the usual troll telling everyone to L2P cause it makes u feel good.
Lol dude I never advocated for heavy to not be nerfed, all I did was debunk stupid claims that it is not OP, which it isn't silly people like you will say that it gives you "infinite sustain" not true It doesn't make you a god and you are not a scrub for using it.
I would have skipped this thread if I didn't read someone posting that "no skilled players wear heavy armor" and its meta even though that has been debunked.
2/10 Troll again.
It needs a nerf but its not OP. It needs a nerf but its L2P issues. It needs a nerf but its balanced. It needs a nerf but you disagree with anyone saying the nerf was well deserved. Your logic is flawless.
And yes its absolutely meta, you are just not that bright to see it and using false numbers and some stupid old reports that doesnt prove anything isnt gonna change that.
Edited by pieratsos on April 28, 2017 8:42AM0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »Blackfyre20 wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »
Wrong and i'll explain why...
Constitution requires you to get hit and only procs every 4 secs, while medium and light give a passive recovery active all the time. In addtion they both give COST reduction which is infinitely superior to regen.
I agree remove the wrath pasive is doen't make a difference to me I would like my 20% block cost back.
200WD or SD is inferior to 12 PERCENT of your WD from medium and even that is inferior to LA Spell pen.
Also if heavy was just forced to be defensive then what do you think heavy armor users would do? They would all be block tanks which people like you would still cry about. Heavy armor has been neglected until the Dark Brotherhood patch and now that its useful you want to see it destroyed again.
You're right LA has a place in cyrodil which is why the majority of pvpers wear LA, this claim is backed by @ZOS_RichLambert himself who release a chart with data proving that 501+ CP players wear mostly Light armor with medium being the second popular and heavy the last.
I'll link the thread where he posted the chart lest he doen't come here an post.
If you believe heavy armor is OP that fine it's your opinion you are entitled to one, but to claim that opinion as fact if pure dogmatism.
[Edit]
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/comment/3370532#Comment_3370532
First of all, I want to point out that I think the numbers for constitution in my post were off. I was just using the numbers from the OP to show why constitution is not "garbage" but I don't think the resource return is actually 1500 every 4 seconds without black rose.
As I said in my post I don't have an issue with the resource management heavy armor provides. However, constitution's "weakness" as you would like to make it seem (that you have to get hit to return resources) is also its biggest strength. It allows you to return stamina while blocking or magicka while in mist form. I'd also like to point out that cost reduction is not "infinitely superior to regen." If this were the case, everyone would have their cost reduction CP tree maxed out and running cost reduction instead of regen on their jewelry (if you need a sustain enchant) which is often not optimal. For someone throwing around the word dogmatism I'd advise you to take a look at your own glass house first. Last thing on constitution is that it is a flat value and does not require you to invest in any regen. Putting on black rose might be looked at as such an investment but the problem is you're also getting a ton of damage. Someone with light seducer or lich on is not really getting any damage out of the set. So to benefit from the % regen in light or medium you have to heavily invest in said regen to begin with, which you don't have to do in heavy armor.
About the wrath passive, while it is inferior to the medium and light bonuses, it is certainly not negligible as you would make it seem. I'm not advocating for forcing heavy armor users to be defensive, but they should not get any offensive bonus from wearing heavy armor. Feel free to put on offensive sets, but I don't think the heavy armor itself should be providing any type of offensive bonus.
Finally, that chart doesn't mean much to me. First of all I'd be interested to see when/how that data was collected. It's not a survey it didn't look like so how can this data collector tell what exactly each one of my characters is wearing when in cyrodiil. I both PVP and PVE which I assume most people do and if you are a dps then you'll never wear heavy for PVE. Also I am always trying different sets so which setup shows up in this data? I'm not saying the data is BS, just saying it'd be tough to collect actual meaningful info and I'd be interested how it's done. That aside, just because a lot of people are doing something doesn't mean that it's a good thing. As I said I like to wear medium armor on my stam characters often because I don't like to mindlessly follow the meta and it's fun to challenge myself a bit. If I actually wanted to be the best PVPer I could be I'd throw on black rose, viper, and tremorscale/velidreth/selene (which I have done before, just feels dirty).
Bottom line, when you put on heavy armor you are not making many meaningful sacrifices and are gaining free resistance. I've seen a lot of people counter with the fact that people stack penetration to tear through heavy armor but that argument doesn't make any sense. Sure maybe they do just that but that just means they'd tear through light/medium even faster. Nobody is over penetrating someone in full heavy armor so at the end of the day it is making some sort of difference. Also sure, light armor is definitely strong when combined with shields. Since shield duration being lowered to 6 seconds though you are taking a hit to your quality of life when you put on light armor because you have to constantly make sure you have your shields up lest you get insta-gibbed by any average player, which also takes more skill. Your stamina management is also much tougher in light which isn't much of a concern in heavy. It is my opinion that heavy armor is OP in the current state, especially when combined with black rose.
Excellent post. I don't want to get to hostile with ya.
[Edit]
Addtionaly I would like to say that heavy armor is weak either, certain sets to make it OverPreform(Black Rose) and should be looked at but all in all I believe that heavy is in a good spot.
Personally i think:
The wraith passive should be halved.
The healing bonus should go
The constitution should only give 1 resource back, which ever is your highest.
This will force those stam heavy armor users who can put on a heavy set and take full advantage of the magicka return to get 100% sustain so they'll actually drop some of their 100% dmg gear for cost reduction or something.
Agree with everything except for healing received passive I love that passive.
That was from months ago where u literally admitted that heavy should be nerfed. You know the same thread that u were giving false numbers to also defend heavy armor. And in this very thread u admitted that constitution needs to be toned down. And at the same time u are telling everyone that dont want the heavy armor nerfs reverted to L2P Got to make up ur mind. You cant even agree with urself. But ok i understand. You are just the usual troll telling everyone to L2P cause it makes u feel good.
Lol dude I never advocated for heavy to not be nerfed, all I did was debunk stupid claims that it is not OP, which it isn't silly people like you will say that it gives you "infinite sustain" not true It doesn't make you a god and you are not a scrub for using it.
I would have skipped this thread if I didn't read someone posting that "no skilled players wear heavy armor" and its meta even though that has been debunked.
2/10 Troll again.
It needs a nerf but its not OP. It needs a nerf but its L2P issues. It needs a nerf but its balanced. It needs a nerf but you disagree with anyone saying the nerf was well deserved. Your logic is flawless.
And yes its absolutely meta, you are just not that bright to see it and using false numbers and some stupid old reports that doesnt prove anything isnt gonna change that.
So do you have proof that everyone wears heavy? I would like to see it otherwise its anecdotal. Or if @ZOS_RichLambert can come in the thread with an updated data sheet and prove me wrong.
Its not meta dude get over it.Power Wealth And Influence.0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »Blackfyre20 wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »
Wrong and i'll explain why...
Constitution requires you to get hit and only procs every 4 secs, while medium and light give a passive recovery active all the time. In addtion they both give COST reduction which is infinitely superior to regen.
I agree remove the wrath pasive is doen't make a difference to me I would like my 20% block cost back.
200WD or SD is inferior to 12 PERCENT of your WD from medium and even that is inferior to LA Spell pen.
Also if heavy was just forced to be defensive then what do you think heavy armor users would do? They would all be block tanks which people like you would still cry about. Heavy armor has been neglected until the Dark Brotherhood patch and now that its useful you want to see it destroyed again.
You're right LA has a place in cyrodil which is why the majority of pvpers wear LA, this claim is backed by @ZOS_RichLambert himself who release a chart with data proving that 501+ CP players wear mostly Light armor with medium being the second popular and heavy the last.
I'll link the thread where he posted the chart lest he doen't come here an post.
If you believe heavy armor is OP that fine it's your opinion you are entitled to one, but to claim that opinion as fact if pure dogmatism.
[Edit]
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/comment/3370532#Comment_3370532
First of all, I want to point out that I think the numbers for constitution in my post were off. I was just using the numbers from the OP to show why constitution is not "garbage" but I don't think the resource return is actually 1500 every 4 seconds without black rose.
As I said in my post I don't have an issue with the resource management heavy armor provides. However, constitution's "weakness" as you would like to make it seem (that you have to get hit to return resources) is also its biggest strength. It allows you to return stamina while blocking or magicka while in mist form. I'd also like to point out that cost reduction is not "infinitely superior to regen." If this were the case, everyone would have their cost reduction CP tree maxed out and running cost reduction instead of regen on their jewelry (if you need a sustain enchant) which is often not optimal. For someone throwing around the word dogmatism I'd advise you to take a look at your own glass house first. Last thing on constitution is that it is a flat value and does not require you to invest in any regen. Putting on black rose might be looked at as such an investment but the problem is you're also getting a ton of damage. Someone with light seducer or lich on is not really getting any damage out of the set. So to benefit from the % regen in light or medium you have to heavily invest in said regen to begin with, which you don't have to do in heavy armor.
About the wrath passive, while it is inferior to the medium and light bonuses, it is certainly not negligible as you would make it seem. I'm not advocating for forcing heavy armor users to be defensive, but they should not get any offensive bonus from wearing heavy armor. Feel free to put on offensive sets, but I don't think the heavy armor itself should be providing any type of offensive bonus.
Finally, that chart doesn't mean much to me. First of all I'd be interested to see when/how that data was collected. It's not a survey it didn't look like so how can this data collector tell what exactly each one of my characters is wearing when in cyrodiil. I both PVP and PVE which I assume most people do and if you are a dps then you'll never wear heavy for PVE. Also I am always trying different sets so which setup shows up in this data? I'm not saying the data is BS, just saying it'd be tough to collect actual meaningful info and I'd be interested how it's done. That aside, just because a lot of people are doing something doesn't mean that it's a good thing. As I said I like to wear medium armor on my stam characters often because I don't like to mindlessly follow the meta and it's fun to challenge myself a bit. If I actually wanted to be the best PVPer I could be I'd throw on black rose, viper, and tremorscale/velidreth/selene (which I have done before, just feels dirty).
Bottom line, when you put on heavy armor you are not making many meaningful sacrifices and are gaining free resistance. I've seen a lot of people counter with the fact that people stack penetration to tear through heavy armor but that argument doesn't make any sense. Sure maybe they do just that but that just means they'd tear through light/medium even faster. Nobody is over penetrating someone in full heavy armor so at the end of the day it is making some sort of difference. Also sure, light armor is definitely strong when combined with shields. Since shield duration being lowered to 6 seconds though you are taking a hit to your quality of life when you put on light armor because you have to constantly make sure you have your shields up lest you get insta-gibbed by any average player, which also takes more skill. Your stamina management is also much tougher in light which isn't much of a concern in heavy. It is my opinion that heavy armor is OP in the current state, especially when combined with black rose.
Excellent post. I don't want to get to hostile with ya.
[Edit]
Addtionaly I would like to say that heavy armor is weak either, certain sets to make it OverPreform(Black Rose) and should be looked at but all in all I believe that heavy is in a good spot.
Personally i think:
The wraith passive should be halved.
The healing bonus should go
The constitution should only give 1 resource back, which ever is your highest.
This will force those stam heavy armor users who can put on a heavy set and take full advantage of the magicka return to get 100% sustain so they'll actually drop some of their 100% dmg gear for cost reduction or something.
Agree with everything except for healing received passive I love that passive.
That was from months ago where u literally admitted that heavy should be nerfed. You know the same thread that u were giving false numbers to also defend heavy armor. And in this very thread u admitted that constitution needs to be toned down. And at the same time u are telling everyone that dont want the heavy armor nerfs reverted to L2P Got to make up ur mind. You cant even agree with urself. But ok i understand. You are just the usual troll telling everyone to L2P cause it makes u feel good.
Lol dude I never advocated for heavy to not be nerfed, all I did was debunk stupid claims that it is not OP, which it isn't silly people like you will say that it gives you "infinite sustain" not true It doesn't make you a god and you are not a scrub for using it.
I would have skipped this thread if I didn't read someone posting that "no skilled players wear heavy armor" and its meta even though that has been debunked.
2/10 Troll again.
It needs a nerf but its not OP. It needs a nerf but its L2P issues. It needs a nerf but its balanced. It needs a nerf but you disagree with anyone saying the nerf was well deserved. Your logic is flawless.
And yes its absolutely meta, you are just not that bright to see it and using false numbers and some stupid old reports that doesnt prove anything isnt gonna change that.
So do you have proof that everyone wears heavy? I would like to see it otherwise its anecdotal. Or if @ZOS_RichLambert can come in the thread with an updated data sheet and prove me wrong.
Its not meta dude get over it.
You are too narrow minded. Not everything is black and white. The number of people using each armor type doesnt prove anything at all. Just because zerglings run light and medium where it doesnt really matter cause they are getting carried anw it doesnt mean the armors are balanced. Almost every competitive and broken build is in heavy armor. The only two builds that are not using heavy are gankers cause they dont really get into actual fights anw and sorcs because their defences dont synergize well with heavy armor. Everyone else is better off using heavy armor.
Like i said. Either it needs nerfs either its balanced. Since you cant even agree with urself i dont need to prove you wrong cause you are proving urself wrong. And when almost every competitive build is in heavy armor you are the one that needs to prove people wrong when they are saying that heavy is miles better than medium and light. But you cant even do that cause u are simply playing in heavy. Its very easy to call the armors balanced when u are not playing in medium or light.Edited by pieratsos on April 28, 2017 2:19PM0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »Blackfyre20 wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »
Wrong and i'll explain why...
Constitution requires you to get hit and only procs every 4 secs, while medium and light give a passive recovery active all the time. In addtion they both give COST reduction which is infinitely superior to regen.
I agree remove the wrath pasive is doen't make a difference to me I would like my 20% block cost back.
200WD or SD is inferior to 12 PERCENT of your WD from medium and even that is inferior to LA Spell pen.
Also if heavy was just forced to be defensive then what do you think heavy armor users would do? They would all be block tanks which people like you would still cry about. Heavy armor has been neglected until the Dark Brotherhood patch and now that its useful you want to see it destroyed again.
You're right LA has a place in cyrodil which is why the majority of pvpers wear LA, this claim is backed by @ZOS_RichLambert himself who release a chart with data proving that 501+ CP players wear mostly Light armor with medium being the second popular and heavy the last.
I'll link the thread where he posted the chart lest he doen't come here an post.
If you believe heavy armor is OP that fine it's your opinion you are entitled to one, but to claim that opinion as fact if pure dogmatism.
[Edit]
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/comment/3370532#Comment_3370532
First of all, I want to point out that I think the numbers for constitution in my post were off. I was just using the numbers from the OP to show why constitution is not "garbage" but I don't think the resource return is actually 1500 every 4 seconds without black rose.
As I said in my post I don't have an issue with the resource management heavy armor provides. However, constitution's "weakness" as you would like to make it seem (that you have to get hit to return resources) is also its biggest strength. It allows you to return stamina while blocking or magicka while in mist form. I'd also like to point out that cost reduction is not "infinitely superior to regen." If this were the case, everyone would have their cost reduction CP tree maxed out and running cost reduction instead of regen on their jewelry (if you need a sustain enchant) which is often not optimal. For someone throwing around the word dogmatism I'd advise you to take a look at your own glass house first. Last thing on constitution is that it is a flat value and does not require you to invest in any regen. Putting on black rose might be looked at as such an investment but the problem is you're also getting a ton of damage. Someone with light seducer or lich on is not really getting any damage out of the set. So to benefit from the % regen in light or medium you have to heavily invest in said regen to begin with, which you don't have to do in heavy armor.
About the wrath passive, while it is inferior to the medium and light bonuses, it is certainly not negligible as you would make it seem. I'm not advocating for forcing heavy armor users to be defensive, but they should not get any offensive bonus from wearing heavy armor. Feel free to put on offensive sets, but I don't think the heavy armor itself should be providing any type of offensive bonus.
Finally, that chart doesn't mean much to me. First of all I'd be interested to see when/how that data was collected. It's not a survey it didn't look like so how can this data collector tell what exactly each one of my characters is wearing when in cyrodiil. I both PVP and PVE which I assume most people do and if you are a dps then you'll never wear heavy for PVE. Also I am always trying different sets so which setup shows up in this data? I'm not saying the data is BS, just saying it'd be tough to collect actual meaningful info and I'd be interested how it's done. That aside, just because a lot of people are doing something doesn't mean that it's a good thing. As I said I like to wear medium armor on my stam characters often because I don't like to mindlessly follow the meta and it's fun to challenge myself a bit. If I actually wanted to be the best PVPer I could be I'd throw on black rose, viper, and tremorscale/velidreth/selene (which I have done before, just feels dirty).
Bottom line, when you put on heavy armor you are not making many meaningful sacrifices and are gaining free resistance. I've seen a lot of people counter with the fact that people stack penetration to tear through heavy armor but that argument doesn't make any sense. Sure maybe they do just that but that just means they'd tear through light/medium even faster. Nobody is over penetrating someone in full heavy armor so at the end of the day it is making some sort of difference. Also sure, light armor is definitely strong when combined with shields. Since shield duration being lowered to 6 seconds though you are taking a hit to your quality of life when you put on light armor because you have to constantly make sure you have your shields up lest you get insta-gibbed by any average player, which also takes more skill. Your stamina management is also much tougher in light which isn't much of a concern in heavy. It is my opinion that heavy armor is OP in the current state, especially when combined with black rose.
Excellent post. I don't want to get to hostile with ya.
[Edit]
Addtionaly I would like to say that heavy armor is weak either, certain sets to make it OverPreform(Black Rose) and should be looked at but all in all I believe that heavy is in a good spot.
Personally i think:
The wraith passive should be halved.
The healing bonus should go
The constitution should only give 1 resource back, which ever is your highest.
This will force those stam heavy armor users who can put on a heavy set and take full advantage of the magicka return to get 100% sustain so they'll actually drop some of their 100% dmg gear for cost reduction or something.
Agree with everything except for healing received passive I love that passive.
That was from months ago where u literally admitted that heavy should be nerfed. You know the same thread that u were giving false numbers to also defend heavy armor. And in this very thread u admitted that constitution needs to be toned down. And at the same time u are telling everyone that dont want the heavy armor nerfs reverted to L2P Got to make up ur mind. You cant even agree with urself. But ok i understand. You are just the usual troll telling everyone to L2P cause it makes u feel good.
Lol dude I never advocated for heavy to not be nerfed, all I did was debunk stupid claims that it is not OP, which it isn't silly people like you will say that it gives you "infinite sustain" not true It doesn't make you a god and you are not a scrub for using it.
I would have skipped this thread if I didn't read someone posting that "no skilled players wear heavy armor" and its meta even though that has been debunked.
2/10 Troll again.
It needs a nerf but its not OP. It needs a nerf but its L2P issues. It needs a nerf but its balanced. It needs a nerf but you disagree with anyone saying the nerf was well deserved. Your logic is flawless.
And yes its absolutely meta, you are just not that bright to see it and using false numbers and some stupid old reports that doesnt prove anything isnt gonna change that.
So do you have proof that everyone wears heavy? I would like to see it otherwise its anecdotal. Or if @ZOS_RichLambert can come in the thread with an updated data sheet and prove me wrong.
Its not meta dude get over it.
You are too narrow minded. Not everything is black and white. The number of people using each armor type doesnt prove anything at all. Just because zerglings run light and medium where it doesnt really matter cause they are getting carried anw it doesnt mean the armors are balanced. Almost every competitive and broken build is in heavy armor. The only two builds that are not using heavy are gankers cause they dont really get into actual fights anw and sorcs because their defences dont synergize well with heavy armor. Everyone else is better off using heavy armor.
Like i said. Either it needs nerfs either its balanced. Since you cant even agree with urself i dont need to prove you wrong cause you are proving urself wrong. And when almost every competitive build is in heavy armor you are the one that needs to prove people wrong when they are saying that heavy is miles better than medium and light. But you cant even do that cause u are simply playing in heavy. Its very easy to call the armors balanced when u are not playing in medium or light.
Ah so denying facts I see?
Like I said heavy armor is not OP its doesn't make you 'infinitely sustain' and it doen't make you a god get that out of your head. All these adjustments to it doesn't make a difference it will not stop the few players wearing heavy armor and make Medium/Light push out of armor parity to being super strong.
Once again claiming that top players all wear heavy is anecdotal, in my experience I fought a lot of magic sorcs that do not wear heavy armor, fough stam and magicka nightblades which do not wear heavy armor. So following your logic: 'everyone I see/duel is wearing Light armor in so its super OP it makes you infinitely sustain it makes you a god and only scrubs use it'
Anecdotal stories are not indicative of actual facts show me a chart with data that in your 'competitive fights' heavy armor is over used. I will wait and I hope you can prove me wrong. Otherwise its is not meta.
GG.Edited by Anti_Virus on April 28, 2017 5:32PMPower Wealth And Influence.0 -
SirCritical✭✭✭✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »no it is very much needed! I am sick and tired of no skilled gamers hopping into heavy amor and then feel super strong cause they can sustain so much.
However, it's the wrong fix they get sustain through heavy attack passive that gives you 25% more resources back. this passive needs to go and heavy will be perfectly fine
Perfect example of ignorance here^^.
He's also stating facts. PvP has become filled with casuals who as NRG says, hop into heavy armour and can sustain forever while being impossible to kill when they are in a zerg because they're in heavy armour.
Constitution should be gutted completely. If anything the only way to sustain in heavy is through heavy attacks imo. I'm so looking forward to everyone going back to light/medium armour and some actual skill returning to cyrodiil even though proc sets will return to the meta, it's much better than the current meta.
I'd love to see you try to tank a vet trial relying on heavy attacks for your sustain.
You won't because he is a PvPer. And doesn't care about PvEers. This is "Elder SavePvP Online: More-to-bring" from now.0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SirCritical wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »no it is very much needed! I am sick and tired of no skilled gamers hopping into heavy amor and then feel super strong cause they can sustain so much.
However, it's the wrong fix they get sustain through heavy attack passive that gives you 25% more resources back. this passive needs to go and heavy will be perfectly fine
Perfect example of ignorance here^^.
He's also stating facts. PvP has become filled with casuals who as NRG says, hop into heavy armour and can sustain forever while being impossible to kill when they are in a zerg because they're in heavy armour.
Constitution should be gutted completely. If anything the only way to sustain in heavy is through heavy attacks imo. I'm so looking forward to everyone going back to light/medium armour and some actual skill returning to cyrodiil even though proc sets will return to the meta, it's much better than the current meta.
I'd love to see you try to tank a vet trial relying on heavy attacks for your sustain.
You won't because he is a PvPer. And doesn't care about PvEers. This is "Elder SavePvP Online: More-to-bring" from now.
Not our fault PvE is just a long button memorization test. Bop it has about as much challenge as PvE.
PvP is where the real competition is...
But seriously, ya'll are gonna get everything nerfed.0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »Blackfyre20 wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »
Wrong and i'll explain why...
Constitution requires you to get hit and only procs every 4 secs, while medium and light give a passive recovery active all the time. In addtion they both give COST reduction which is infinitely superior to regen.
I agree remove the wrath pasive is doen't make a difference to me I would like my 20% block cost back.
200WD or SD is inferior to 12 PERCENT of your WD from medium and even that is inferior to LA Spell pen.
Also if heavy was just forced to be defensive then what do you think heavy armor users would do? They would all be block tanks which people like you would still cry about. Heavy armor has been neglected until the Dark Brotherhood patch and now that its useful you want to see it destroyed again.
You're right LA has a place in cyrodil which is why the majority of pvpers wear LA, this claim is backed by @ZOS_RichLambert himself who release a chart with data proving that 501+ CP players wear mostly Light armor with medium being the second popular and heavy the last.
I'll link the thread where he posted the chart lest he doen't come here an post.
If you believe heavy armor is OP that fine it's your opinion you are entitled to one, but to claim that opinion as fact if pure dogmatism.
[Edit]
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/comment/3370532#Comment_3370532
First of all, I want to point out that I think the numbers for constitution in my post were off. I was just using the numbers from the OP to show why constitution is not "garbage" but I don't think the resource return is actually 1500 every 4 seconds without black rose.
As I said in my post I don't have an issue with the resource management heavy armor provides. However, constitution's "weakness" as you would like to make it seem (that you have to get hit to return resources) is also its biggest strength. It allows you to return stamina while blocking or magicka while in mist form. I'd also like to point out that cost reduction is not "infinitely superior to regen." If this were the case, everyone would have their cost reduction CP tree maxed out and running cost reduction instead of regen on their jewelry (if you need a sustain enchant) which is often not optimal. For someone throwing around the word dogmatism I'd advise you to take a look at your own glass house first. Last thing on constitution is that it is a flat value and does not require you to invest in any regen. Putting on black rose might be looked at as such an investment but the problem is you're also getting a ton of damage. Someone with light seducer or lich on is not really getting any damage out of the set. So to benefit from the % regen in light or medium you have to heavily invest in said regen to begin with, which you don't have to do in heavy armor.
About the wrath passive, while it is inferior to the medium and light bonuses, it is certainly not negligible as you would make it seem. I'm not advocating for forcing heavy armor users to be defensive, but they should not get any offensive bonus from wearing heavy armor. Feel free to put on offensive sets, but I don't think the heavy armor itself should be providing any type of offensive bonus.
Finally, that chart doesn't mean much to me. First of all I'd be interested to see when/how that data was collected. It's not a survey it didn't look like so how can this data collector tell what exactly each one of my characters is wearing when in cyrodiil. I both PVP and PVE which I assume most people do and if you are a dps then you'll never wear heavy for PVE. Also I am always trying different sets so which setup shows up in this data? I'm not saying the data is BS, just saying it'd be tough to collect actual meaningful info and I'd be interested how it's done. That aside, just because a lot of people are doing something doesn't mean that it's a good thing. As I said I like to wear medium armor on my stam characters often because I don't like to mindlessly follow the meta and it's fun to challenge myself a bit. If I actually wanted to be the best PVPer I could be I'd throw on black rose, viper, and tremorscale/velidreth/selene (which I have done before, just feels dirty).
Bottom line, when you put on heavy armor you are not making many meaningful sacrifices and are gaining free resistance. I've seen a lot of people counter with the fact that people stack penetration to tear through heavy armor but that argument doesn't make any sense. Sure maybe they do just that but that just means they'd tear through light/medium even faster. Nobody is over penetrating someone in full heavy armor so at the end of the day it is making some sort of difference. Also sure, light armor is definitely strong when combined with shields. Since shield duration being lowered to 6 seconds though you are taking a hit to your quality of life when you put on light armor because you have to constantly make sure you have your shields up lest you get insta-gibbed by any average player, which also takes more skill. Your stamina management is also much tougher in light which isn't much of a concern in heavy. It is my opinion that heavy armor is OP in the current state, especially when combined with black rose.
Excellent post. I don't want to get to hostile with ya.
[Edit]
Addtionaly I would like to say that heavy armor is weak either, certain sets to make it OverPreform(Black Rose) and should be looked at but all in all I believe that heavy is in a good spot.
Personally i think:
The wraith passive should be halved.
The healing bonus should go
The constitution should only give 1 resource back, which ever is your highest.
This will force those stam heavy armor users who can put on a heavy set and take full advantage of the magicka return to get 100% sustain so they'll actually drop some of their 100% dmg gear for cost reduction or something.
Agree with everything except for healing received passive I love that passive.
That was from months ago where u literally admitted that heavy should be nerfed. You know the same thread that u were giving false numbers to also defend heavy armor. And in this very thread u admitted that constitution needs to be toned down. And at the same time u are telling everyone that dont want the heavy armor nerfs reverted to L2P Got to make up ur mind. You cant even agree with urself. But ok i understand. You are just the usual troll telling everyone to L2P cause it makes u feel good.
Lol dude I never advocated for heavy to not be nerfed, all I did was debunk stupid claims that it is not OP, which it isn't silly people like you will say that it gives you "infinite sustain" not true It doesn't make you a god and you are not a scrub for using it.
I would have skipped this thread if I didn't read someone posting that "no skilled players wear heavy armor" and its meta even though that has been debunked.
2/10 Troll again.
It needs a nerf but its not OP. It needs a nerf but its L2P issues. It needs a nerf but its balanced. It needs a nerf but you disagree with anyone saying the nerf was well deserved. Your logic is flawless.
And yes its absolutely meta, you are just not that bright to see it and using false numbers and some stupid old reports that doesnt prove anything isnt gonna change that.
So do you have proof that everyone wears heavy? I would like to see it otherwise its anecdotal. Or if @ZOS_RichLambert can come in the thread with an updated data sheet and prove me wrong.
Its not meta dude get over it.
You are too narrow minded. Not everything is black and white. The number of people using each armor type doesnt prove anything at all. Just because zerglings run light and medium where it doesnt really matter cause they are getting carried anw it doesnt mean the armors are balanced. Almost every competitive and broken build is in heavy armor. The only two builds that are not using heavy are gankers cause they dont really get into actual fights anw and sorcs because their defences dont synergize well with heavy armor. Everyone else is better off using heavy armor.
Like i said. Either it needs nerfs either its balanced. Since you cant even agree with urself i dont need to prove you wrong cause you are proving urself wrong. And when almost every competitive build is in heavy armor you are the one that needs to prove people wrong when they are saying that heavy is miles better than medium and light. But you cant even do that cause u are simply playing in heavy. Its very easy to call the armors balanced when u are not playing in medium or light.
Ah so denying facts I see?
Like I said heavy armor is not OP its doesn't make you 'infinitely sustain' and it doen't male you a god get that out of your head. All these adjustments to it doesn't make a difference it will not stop the few players wearing heavy armor and make Medium/Light push out of armor parity to being super strong.
Once again claiming that top players all wear heavy is anecdotal, in my experience I fought a lot of magic sorcs that do not wear heavy armor, fough stam and magicka nightblades which do not wear heavy armor. So following your logic: 'everyone I see/duel is wearing Light armor in so its super OP it makes you infinitely sustain it makes you a god and only scrubs use it'
Anecdotal stories are not indicative of actual facts show me a chart with data that in your 'competitive fights' heavy armor is over used. I will wait and I hope you can prove me wrong. Otherwise its is not meta.
GG.
Learn to read. I literally said that only gankers and sorcs are not using heavy. Every other competitive and broken build is in heavy. Even magblades are better off using heavy. You can consult kena about that. Just watch the video he made a while ago. You are the one denying facts not me. Whether heavy gives literally infinite sustain or not is irrelevant. The point is that it is miles better than both light and medium so they are not balanced. And keep avoiding to answer to this.It needs a nerf but its not OP. It needs a nerf but its L2P issues. It needs a nerf but its balanced. It needs a nerf but you disagree with anyone saying the nerf was well deserved. Your logic is flawless.
There is no point to continue this. I dont need to prove you wrong cause there is no credibility in anything u are saying since u cant even agree with urself.
You are just avoiding to answer any good point people make cause u have no idea what to say and you are repeating the same crap like a broken record. Rich lambert's data, L2P, rich lambert's data, L2P. I guess if it makes u feel better keep doing it.
Edited by pieratsos on April 28, 2017 6:00PM1