constitution change isn't needed

acw37162

Constitution was way to good and needed to be adjusted.

However, roughly a 40% nerf to constitution and doubling the cost of block will make from quite a few problems for PVE tanks.

Anti_Virus

Brrrofski wrote: »

Honestly, should have just punished damage when wearing heavy.

Reduce weapon and spell damage by 20% while wearing 5 heavy. It'd change the PvP meta.

This coming from someone who's favourite Pve build is a saptank that runs 2.5k spell damage.

If that happened then heavy would be relegated to strict tanking and you would see an Increase in block builds which again most of you would still QQ about.

makreth

.

Paraflex

This nerf is well deserved anyone who thinks you should be a tank plus dps/healer is the type of player who likes to be cancer in PVP....you sir are a fool this nerf needed to happen months ago. Please go play little big planet players like you don't add value to the game.

Anti_Virus

Paraflex wrote: »

This nerf is well deserved anyone who thinks you should be a tank plus dps/healer is the type of player who likes to be cancer in PVP....you sir are a fool this nerf needed to happen moths ago. Please go play little big planet players like you don't add value to the game.

Magicka sorcs are glass cannon tanks please sit down some where.

MrGorv

Heavy armor was the only way to survive an outnumbered fight in stamina build. In medium you can LoS as much as you want, dodge a lot, but, if there are 3+ people sitting on you, you're just dead.
In my opinion, they should've treated Consitution the same way they did with Wrath passive. Less gains with less cooldown. If I'm not mistaken on live it gives 140 resource points each 4 seconds. I think it should generate 20 each 0.5 seconds. The more hits you get - the more resources Constitution generates.
I think Medium should get some more damage bonus, though. It's really a bit underperforming.
And Constitution nerf is not what screws PvE tanking, it is Constitution, block, Battle Roar and Helping Hands nerfs altogether. Just too much for one patch.

pieratsos

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Dr.NRG wrote: »

no it is very much needed! I am sick and tired of no skilled gamers hopping into heavy amor and then feel super strong cause they can sustain so much.
However, it's the wrong fix they get sustain through heavy attack passive that gives you 25% more resources back. this passive needs to go and heavy will be perfectly fine

Perfect example of ignorance here^^.

He's also stating facts. PvP has become filled with casuals who as NRG says, hop into heavy armour and can sustain forever while being impossible to kill when they are in a zerg because they're in heavy armour.

Constitution should be gutted completely. If anything the only way to sustain in heavy is through heavy attacks imo. I'm so looking forward to everyone going back to light/medium armour and some actual skill returning to cyrodiil even though proc sets will return to the meta, it's much better than the current meta.

I'd love to see you try to tank a vet trial relying on heavy attacks for your sustain.

You do realise that people were tanking vet trials when constitution was flat out useless right?
You are literally complaining about having to use a sustain set to manage ur resources. Do you know how stupid it sounds? Thats the whole point of the changes. For you to actually have to use ur brain to sustain.
And i like the fact how u bash people for not thinking about PVE and yet you are doing the exact same thing, ignore how OP heavy is in PVP, ignore the fact that all armors got nerfed and make a thread asking specifically for heavy nerfs to be reverted.

pieratsos

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Heavy armor is not OP its simply a L2P issue.

You have plenty of unblockable attacks, lots of sources of Penetration from gear and CP stars. You all just want to return to the good ol days were everyone wore Light armor with a few medium armor guys and absolutely no heavy at all.

Anyone with a half a brain that played in light, medium and heavy knows how much better heavy is compared to light and medium. Same sustain if not better, ridiculously more survivability and about the same dmg.

Iyas

pieratsos wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Dr.NRG wrote: »

no it is very much needed! I am sick and tired of no skilled gamers hopping into heavy amor and then feel super strong cause they can sustain so much.
However, it's the wrong fix they get sustain through heavy attack passive that gives you 25% more resources back. this passive needs to go and heavy will be perfectly fine

Perfect example of ignorance here^^.

He's also stating facts. PvP has become filled with casuals who as NRG says, hop into heavy armour and can sustain forever while being impossible to kill when they are in a zerg because they're in heavy armour.

Constitution should be gutted completely. If anything the only way to sustain in heavy is through heavy attacks imo. I'm so looking forward to everyone going back to light/medium armour and some actual skill returning to cyrodiil even though proc sets will return to the meta, it's much better than the current meta.

I'd love to see you try to tank a vet trial relying on heavy attacks for your sustain.

You do realise that people were tanking vet trials when constitution was flat out useless right?
You are literally complaining about having to use a sustain set to manage ur resources. Do you know how stupid it sounds? Thats the whole point of the changes. For you to actually have to use ur brain to sustain.
And i like the fact how u bash people for not thinking about PVE and yet you are doing the exact same thing, ignore how OP heavy is in PVP, ignore the fact that all armors got nerfed and make a thread asking specifically for heavy nerfs to be reverted.

What he said

SleepyTroll

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Dr.NRG wrote: »

no it is very much needed! I am sick and tired of no skilled gamers hopping into heavy amor and then feel super strong cause they can sustain so much.
However, it's the wrong fix they get sustain through heavy attack passive that gives you 25% more resources back. this passive needs to go and heavy will be perfectly fine

Perfect example of ignorance here^^.

He's also stating facts. PvP has become filled with casuals who as NRG says, hop into heavy armour and can sustain forever while being impossible to kill when they are in a zerg because they're in heavy armour.

Constitution should be gutted completely. If anything the only way to sustain in heavy is through heavy attacks imo. I'm so looking forward to everyone going back to light/medium armour and some actual skill returning to cyrodiil even though proc sets will return to the meta, it's much better than the current meta.

These are not "facts" at all majority of players in PVP wear Light Armor, followed by medium then heavy according to Zos Rich Lamberts data in a thread called "Hard Data" he came in and debunked a rediculous claim that heavy is over used and its not. Stop with the lunacy.

That same place the data that gave the amount of AP people earn came from LOL

Dracane

I only want to see more diversity. People will always use what's best and that's simply heavy armor since a long time.
There is no reason not to use it and it's so annoying, that almost everyone in pvp is a super tank+insane damage at the same time. I miss the times where it was DD vs DD and the first one to make a mistake would die. Yet, heavy armor barely offers any space for mistakes, it's super forgiving.

Medium armor requires you to stay mobile, light requires you to manage your shield to prevent one shots. And heavy.... just keep your HoT up and be done with it. Everyone can play it with ease.

Vencenzo

This is a matter of not having the foresight to see how all the other changes interact with heavy to dissuade use already. Constitution was only as good as it was due to the ability to get reduction from outside sources, effectively making the flat return worth more. Throwing a constitution nerf on top of current changes is doubling the nerf to heavy. Heavy was garabage in pvp for the first couple years, let's not go back to that.


P.S. Zos give me pts access I was gone for awhile but I'm back now.

Drdeath20

Subversus wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

alephthiago wrote: »

I would like to see 80% nerf to constitution and wrath halved again to be honest.

No, this is not a joke.

And this is why pvpers shouldn't have any say in balance changes. You can't think clearly or reasonably when you spend all day in cyrodiil.

At this point it's either buff heavy armor and ruin pvp for another year or keep it nerfed and make PvErs l2p and adapt to some changes instead of stacking damage sets as a tank.

Look up one of woeler's videos about how to tank in homestead, he clearly states that at this point in the game a tank could do just fine with medium. I don't know if that guy is considered good or not, but he's got a point: tanking is easy mode as it is on live to the point that tanks stack damage sets. I'm sure you lot can learn to adapt.

Dude pvp will always be ruined for a year. Catch my drift?

idk

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Constitution, after the 42% nerf, is returning no more resources than a typical 2-4 pc set recovery bonus. This is far less than the recovery boost light or medium give even with low base recovery, and requires taking damage consistently to even function.

This change is pigeonholing tanks into using black rose just to maintain similar recovery to what constitution currently provides.

Still get resources back when blocking iirc which is a significant difference from set bonus regen. Further, some of the changes are to eliminate the heavy armor meta for PvP which is a good thing.

Valencer

So here's the real numbers:

7 heavy on live



1302 stamina and magicka every 4 seconds, which is effectively 651 magicka *and* stamina regen if it procs off-cooldown. This isnt very realistic so you can subtract a little bit from that for a more accurate number.

7 heavy on PTS

1302*0.58 = 755 stamina and magicka every 4 seconds, which is more or less an effective 377 extra magicka and stamina regen if it procs off-cooldown. Again not very realistic so subtract a little bit and there's the actual regen you get from it. Still far higher than the 200 regen the OP claims 7 heavy without black rose gives post-nerf.

Again, this is magicka/stamina sustain that procs through mist form and block, which imo makes it quite a bit more potent than normal regen. Youll probably get more regen out of your light and medium armour passives, but not for both magicka and stamina sustain at the same time and it has the prerequisite that you actually need to invest into regen for the %-based passives to give a decent bonus.

Main thing that's going to hit heavy armour builds very hard is that a lot of the options that allow people to sustain without actual regen are getting nerfed hard. Redguard no longer gives a crazy 480+ effective stam regen for stacking 40k+ max stamina (It's now about 190 stamina regen no matter what your max stam is). Magickasteal is getting nerfed too. Helping Hands and Battle Roar greatly nerfed, Siphoning Strikes greatly nerfed.

I dont think we'll see many heavy armour builds stacking nothing but damage sets anymore, post-update. This is a good thing. The typical heavy armour redguard stamina build wont be able to sustain with 600 stamina regen anymore, unless they want to spend 80% of their playtime spamming heavy attacks.

5 heavy armour, redguard, on live:
- 465 effective stam regen from constitution
- 480 effective stam regen from adrenaline rush (assuming 40k max stamina, can be higher)
- 465 effective mag regen from constitution (effectively pushes your mag regen to about 1k, which means more magicka for proccing the Helping Hands DK passive, using dark deal or keeping up siphoning strikes, meaning even more stamina sustain)

on PTS:
- 269 effective stam regen from constitution
-190 effective stam regen from adrenaline rush
- 269 effective mag regen from constitution (also, siphoning strikes and the helping hands DK passive are both nerfed into the ground so this magicka sustain is less useful for DKs and NBs now)

Magicka-wise, siphoning strikes and magickasteal both got nerfed so heavy armour templars and nightblades are both going to be struggling to run with low regen...

For PvE tanking, there's a lot of things that tanks can do to minimise their sustain worries. Block cost can go as low as 88 stamina and with a cost like that you can permablock easily.

In general, people are probably still going to be able to be incredibly tanky in PvP with heavy armour builds, but theyll definitely have to spec heavily for sustain, and that will make them less of a threat.

SlowMetabolism

Remove wrath pls

Lynx7386

All I'm seeing throughout the replies here are people complaining that someone in pvp can survive their one shot gank build. This is the root of all problems in this game, overly vocal pvpers -_-

Anti_Virus

Lynx7386 wrote: »

All I'm seeing throughout the replies here are people complaining that someone in pvp can survive their one shot gank build. This is the root of all problems in this game, overly vocal pvpers -_-

Thats pretty much it, if you make a tankable dps build they whine, if you go full on block build tank they whine.

They just hate heavy armor. You can't win

pieratsos

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

All I'm seeing throughout the replies here are people complaining that someone in pvp can survive their one shot gank build. This is the root of all problems in this game, overly vocal pvpers -_-

Thats pretty much it, if you make a tankable dps build they whine, if you go full on block build tank they whine.

They just hate heavy armor. You can't win

No they hate heavy armor cause it offers way too much. And providing wrong numbers to dispute that wont change anything. Someone would think that after all the bs u were writing some time ago providing ridiculously false and illogical numbers to prove how heavy armor isnt that good that you would think twice before opening this conversation again. But here you are again. Telling everyone to L2P and defending heavy armor with what else, false numbers again.

IxSTALKERxI

Ok so in the live version of the game with CP, killing someone via sustain is basically impossible... The solution is to kill people with burst. The way to counter this burst is by wearing heavy armor. So the person in heavy armor ends up being hard to kill using either sustain or burst which is why heavy armor ends up being meta in PvP.

Reducing both resource sustain and damage (burst potential) in pvp will help shift the meta down a level to medium armor. The constant power creep is what shifts the game into heavy. Things like proc sets and stuff don't really help either as they give burst potential without spending many resources.

SodanTok

Lynx7386 wrote: »

All I'm seeing throughout the replies here are people complaining that someone in pvp can survive their one shot gank build. This is the root of all problems in this game, overly vocal pvpers -_-

Then you are blind. All I see are posts that ARE PROVING you either lie or sux at math. Take your pick

Anti_Virus

pieratsos wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

All I'm seeing throughout the replies here are people complaining that someone in pvp can survive their one shot gank build. This is the root of all problems in this game, overly vocal pvpers -_-

Thats pretty much it, if you make a tankable dps build they whine, if you go full on block build tank they whine.

They just hate heavy armor. You can't win

No they hate heavy armor cause it offers way too much. And providing wrong numbers to dispute that wont change anything. Someone would think that after all the bs u were writing some time ago providing ridiculously false and illogical numbers to prove how heavy armor isnt that good that you would think twice before opening this conversation again. But here you are again. Telling everyone to L2P and defending heavy armor with what else, false numbers again.

Bruh heavy armor is fine. Even with this nerf you will still QQ anyways. L2P.

[Edit]
Please elaborate on my "False Numbers"

FlyLionel

Engine guardian or pair 5 heavy with bone pirate. All reduce cost on jewelry, get ready to get your drank on in heavy armour. Also you need to heavy attack now, no idea how it feels on PTS but I doubt it is unplayable. PVP will be fine, if not better. It is only pve people are panicking about. Not sure if any of you try to heavy attack a boss consistently in vet trials while being the tank. No bueno.

Edit: @Brrrofski on the money, why is there bonus damage while wearing heavy?

pieratsos

Anti_Virus wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

All I'm seeing throughout the replies here are people complaining that someone in pvp can survive their one shot gank build. This is the root of all problems in this game, overly vocal pvpers -_-

Thats pretty much it, if you make a tankable dps build they whine, if you go full on block build tank they whine.

They just hate heavy armor. You can't win

No they hate heavy armor cause it offers way too much. And providing wrong numbers to dispute that wont change anything. Someone would think that after all the bs u were writing some time ago providing ridiculously false and illogical numbers to prove how heavy armor isnt that good that you would think twice before opening this conversation again. But here you are again. Telling everyone to L2P and defending heavy armor with what else, false numbers again.

Bruh heavy armor is fine. Even with this nerf you will still QQ anyways. L2P.

[Edit]
Please elaborate on my "False Numbers"

This whole thread started with false numbers. Go back and read again.
I know how to play. I know heavy armor is OP cause i play in heavy armor. If anyone has issues with the game here then its you. You are the usual ignorant player providing false numbers in forums and when people expose you, you start the L2P bs because u dont know what else to say. Heavy armor is getting nerfed. Get over it. Now u may be the one who has to L2P.

Btw did you learn how much penetration maces give? Or do u still believe that its 13k?

Olupajmibanan

How about reverting the change to constitution and then making it to proc ONLY on direct damage?

For PvE tanks, basically nothing would change.

In PvP, you would actually need to take damage and go toe to toe with your opponent (a purpose of heavy armor at all) to make Constitution effective and not just LoS with DoT on you or Caltrops under your feet and regaining load of resources at no risk.

Derra

Heavy as a whole with the old constitution was considered better than light or mediums sutained capabilities.
Medium and light loose 1% cost reduction per piece (or 33%!!! - which is the most important part about their sustain).

Considering that medium and light loose 33% efficiency a nerf to heavy by 42% seems reasonable - it was considered better and it might still be more desireable than medium or light.

Valencer

The PvE tank argument is pointless. I do off-tanking in vMOL - medium armour tanking - and have 0 issues with sustain even though Im wearing 1 piece of heavy armour at the most, unless I *** up badly.

People were tanking trials just fine before constitution even got super-buffed, too. All the upcoming sustain changes will do is make tanks adopt more Sturdy armour pieces to drop their block cost as low as possible.

Xsorus

People whining about wrath on heavy prove how dumb the vast majority of players are in this game... same with people saying most players are nothing but heavy in pvp... which is completely untrue...

stevepdodson_ESO888

Lynx7386 wrote: »

alephthiago wrote: »

I would like to see 80% nerf to constitution and wrath halved again to be honest.

No, this is not a joke.

And this is why pvpers shouldn't have any say in balance changes. You can't think clearly or reasonably when you spend all day in cyrodiil.

the nerf should be to the Black Rose set not to Constitution Passive...this helps both PvP and PvE

Karm1cOne

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Magıc wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Dr.NRG wrote: »

no it is very much needed! I am sick and tired of no skilled gamers hopping into heavy amor and then feel super strong cause they can sustain so much.
However, it's the wrong fix they get sustain through heavy attack passive that gives you 25% more resources back. this passive needs to go and heavy will be perfectly fine

Perfect example of ignorance here^^.

He's also stating facts. PvP has become filled with casuals who as NRG says, hop into heavy armour and can sustain forever while being impossible to kill when they are in a zerg because they're in heavy armour.

Constitution should be gutted completely. If anything the only way to sustain in heavy is through heavy attacks imo. I'm so looking forward to everyone going back to light/medium armour and some actual skill returning to cyrodiil even though proc sets will return to the meta, it's much better than the current meta.

These are not "facts" at all majority of players in PVP wear Light Armor, followed by medium then heavy according to Zos Rich Lamberts data in a thread called "Hard Data" he came in and debunked a rediculous claim that heavy is over used and its not. Stop with the lunacy.

That data is almost a year old now. Well before the heavy armor meta set in.