Let's Talk Templar

WhiteMage

...But not anything that's in the patch notes! Let's talk about the deficiencies that the Templar has that have been completely neglected by the patch notes. That's not to say we need to avoid whatever is in the patch notes, though...

I'll start us off with a little known side of the Templar: the light armored PvP killing machine Templar. If I asked you to think of a Templar in your head, what would that Templar be doing? I'm going to take the wild guess that most people pictured a healing Templar, probably in the middle of casting a Breath of Life. Many of the rest of folks probably thought of a tanking Templar, perhaps glowing in its iconic Blazing Shield. What armor are these Templars wearing? If its a PvE healer or DD, its in light armor. Everything else is probably in heavy, am I right? Very few people, I wager, will have thought of a light armored Templar killing things like nobodies business in PvP. Just like every other class, a Templar can do it too, but we don't see many of them around. I think we've kind of neglected that part of the Templar, and so for my contribution to this topics, I want to take a bit of time to discuss what it needs from my position in the niche I play.

The magicka Templar does not have much burst. After the homestead patch, our chief burst skill received a massive 21% nerf. I believed that was it for this playstyle when that happened. The magplar can dish out great pressure, but against tanks or sorcs, which that is ineffective against, there was nothing to fall back on. You have an ult at your disposal, but relied on your opponent to remain lax enough to get to half health where RD would kick in before your target even became alarmed. A 21% reduced RD could not fill that role anymore, I thought, and it turns out that I was right. RD was no longer reliable burst against most opponents.

However, backlash made it worth it. Backlash, now the only real burst tool that Templars have, was and is all that is needed to kill tanks and sorcerers, especially sorcerers (in addition the the pressure the Templar applies with jabs, etc.). The key factor in this is the ability to refresh backlash by recasting it before its duration has expired, allowing damage to continue to build up, up to the cap, and be released with an ult and a cc and a RD. For tanky opponents, you need to keep it up longer. For slippery opponents (lots of dodge rolls + shuffle, or lots of roots) you need to keep it up till you can actually stun and pressure them. This makes it an invaluable tool that keeps magplars relevant killers in PvP.

Backlash has a fatal flaw, however. It can be purged, and when it is purged it deals no damage. This means, in effect, backlash is useless against other Templars, who have access to a cheap purge. This is a major problem. Any Templar can outheal pressure from jabs. There is just no way to kill a Templar without high burst, but because of the nature of backlash, a Templar can muster zero burst against another Templar. Compounded on that, very many Templars in PvP wear heavy armor, further trivializing Templar on Templar damage.

I don't have an amazing solution to this, but I have a few ideas. Perhaps backlash could be unpurgable. Perhaps, when purged, backlash would release all of its stored damage. Unfortunately, the former leaves little counterplay, while the latter reintroduces very little burst. The ultimate problem is Templars have no reliable tools for killing other Templars. I think this needs attention.

Do you agree? Do you disagree? Do you have one of your own little-known Templar (or any class, frankly) deficiencies to share? The PTS is up and now is a great time to bring them to the attention of the developers.

@Wrobel

wimhwimladimf

I dont think they will be tbad as long as you adjust your build. New patch is more about surviving burst combos, if you can do that, you most likely wont die, beecause your enemy will simply run out of resource.

AtorOAlikr

here is a idea can we have Major Sorcery attached to Radiant Aura when active drop Minor Fortitude and Minor Endurance keep Minor Intellect While slotted.


Binding Javelin could be a stamplar Execute the dps is like nomore then 6-6.5k cut in half by 1/2 in pvp just add a Execute factor of x250. counter play would be dodge roll, block and reflect. Skilled play would be to cc with Dizzying Swing, Dawnbreaker of Smiting, Shield Charge, Power Bash and Scatter Shot then Javelin for Execute... you could call it Smiting Javelin


Unstable Core is *** dps but how about making it in to a cc good magika dump for stamplar and good for mageplar. It could be a single target fear called terrifying Darkness. Possibly a hard cc like Petrify or Streak called halting darkness.


Explosive Charge can be made stam based and can apply Major Fracture either on the aoe effect or the target hit. you could even make it apply Major Brutality for 20 sec and called it champions Charge.

Radiant Ward how about making it apply Major Vitality so Templar self heals don't suffer and stamplar can live in pvp.. Effectively splitting temp self healing and group healing making it useful for more then tanks.

Sacred Ground can be changed keep the Movement Speed reduced by 30% and make it Increase the duration of Major Mending this will split temp dps form heals . the healer will use Restoration Staff for Major Mending and dps will us Radiant Ward for self heals. the way you ensure balance u could make Radiant Ward stam based or Major Mending and Major Vitality made not to stack make it work like snares the highest of two applies. This will force a temp to pick group heals or self heals.

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno

Mumyo

I am really sad we Stamplars lost major mending. I just see disadvantages anywhere i look. Blacklash is one nice thing to burst but thats basically it except for purge.
I don't see any buildoptions since u are bound to jabs and that bores me. If u try to avoid such a build u are in disadvantage to anything else.

Fuxo

I would like to point out that the homogenization of necrotic orb and shards makes the shards an obsolete skill. Either cancel the homogenization, or simply replace shards with a completely new skill or a crowd-control functionality like stun or area off-balance like it was before.

UppGRAYxDD

I have mained a PvP dps Magplar for ever...I agree with everything you have stated OP. We lack good burst and a proper immobilize. Losing major mending will hurt, but not much and with the changes to purifying light we dps magplars are in a good place for next patch. I feel that a few of the skill trees and morphs need an update tho. The changes to Eclipse is a good thing, but I would love to see the dmg after expiration boosted @25-50%. Also Blazing shards need to be rolled back to where it was, just remove the ability to stun multiple enemies. Other changes I would like to see: Radient Ward needs to keep its passive growth but scale off max magicka, solar barrage needs either a massive dmg buff or maybe a different effect like "immobilize enemies withing 5 meter radius for 1.5 secs" or maybe just add the old blinding light effects to the current skill. Also the animation needs to be sped up or cleaned up to where you can quick cast it, it is supposed to be an instant not a spell label instant that really takes aroun .75-1sec to cast. Last, concerning major mending...I know @ZOS_GinaBruno stated that we have healing ritual( I chuckle a little inside everytime i even think about using it in pvp or pve), but this skill is a USELESS DEATH SENTENCE WHEN USED IN PVE OR PVP. How about just passively giving templars major mending for "X" amount of second after using healing ritual or its morphs.

P.S. How come puncturing sweeps still gets dodged in pvp when it clearly is an aoe and covered by the rule inacted last patch "Aoe's are undodgeable due to their nature". Well works on Stamplar Biting Jabs but Magplar Sweeps still miss...alot especially if the enemy is using shuffle.

Turelus

Breath of life, breath of life, shards, breath of life, shards shards, breath of life.

Repentance, breath of life, breath of life, shards.

NOVA, BREATH OF LIFE, BREATH OF LIFE, BREATH OF LIFE, SHARDS, SHARDS, Soul Gem, death, P, X, E.

You told me to speak Templar so I spoke typical PUG language Templar (sorry I know this was a serious thread but I couldn't help but be silly).

UppGRAYxDD

Turelus wrote: »

Breath of life, breath of life, shards, breath of life, shards shards, breath of life.

Repentance, breath of life, breath of life, shards.

NOVA, BREATH OF LIFE, BREATH OF LIFE, BREATH OF LIFE, SHARDS, SHARDS, Soul Gem, death, P, X, E.

You told me to speak Templar so I spoke typical PUG language Templar (sorry I know this was a serious thread but I couldn't help but be silly).

No we are talking about DPS Magplars...so its: degeneration, purifying light, reflective light, toppling charge, sweeps, sweeps, sweeps, extended ritual, channeled focus, sweeps, sweeps, sweeps, radient spam....

Shards have been removed from our spam for a while now....and Nova LMAO....might as well light attack

Turelus

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Breath of life, breath of life, shards, breath of life, shards shards, breath of life.

Repentance, breath of life, breath of life, shards.

NOVA, BREATH OF LIFE, BREATH OF LIFE, BREATH OF LIFE, SHARDS, SHARDS, Soul Gem, death, P, X, E.

You told me to speak Templar so I spoke typical PUG language Templar (sorry I know this was a serious thread but I couldn't help but be silly).

No we are talking about DPS Magplars...so its: degeneration, purifying light, reflective light, toppling charge, sweeps, sweeps, sweeps, extended ritual, channeled focus, sweeps, sweeps, sweeps, radient spam....

Shards have been removed from our spam for a while now....and Nova LMAO....might as well light attack

You still need the death, P, X, E in there though. No rotation and PUG is complete without a rage quit.

Okay I will stop messing around now, back to reading the constructive posts today.

GallantGuardian

AtorOAlikr wrote: »

here is a idea can we have Major Sorcery attached to Radiant Aura when active drop Minor Fortitude and Minor Endurance keep Minor Intellect While slotted.


Binding Javelin could be a stamplar Execute the dps is like nomore then 6-6.5k cut in half by 1/2 in pvp just add a Execute factor of x250. counter play would be dodge roll, block and reflect. Skilled play would be to cc with Dizzying Swing, Dawnbreaker of Smiting, Shield Charge, Power Bash and Scatter Shot then Javelin for Execute... you could call it Smiting Javelin


Unstable Core is *** dps but how about making it in to a cc good magika dump for stamplar and good for mageplar. It could be a single target fear called terrifying Darkness. Possibly a hard cc like Petrify or Streak called halting darkness.


Explosive Charge can be made stam based and can apply Major Fracture either on the aoe effect or the target hit. you could even make it apply Major Brutality for 20 sec and called it champions Charge.

Radiant Ward how about making it apply Major Vitality so Templar self heals don't suffer and stamplar can live in pvp.. Effectively splitting temp self healing and group healing making it useful for more then tanks.

Sacred Ground can be changed keep the Movement Speed reduced by 30% and make it Increase the duration of Major Mending this will split temp dps form heals . the healer will use Restoration Staff for Major Mending and dps will us Radiant Ward for self heals. the way you ensure balance u could make Radiant Ward stam based or Major Mending and Major Vitality made not to stack make it work like snares the highest of two applies. This will force a temp to pick group heals or self heals.

I like a lot of your ideas from a tank perspective.

Personally tho I feel like we need a hard cc root. I would love it if unstable core had a morph they put on a multi target cc or root.

Either that or as I mentioned in another thread use that ability no one does called solar barrage from solar flare. Make it hard cc the targets surrounding you that way they can't move for so many seconds (think talons)but what id like this ability to also apply minor fracture and minor maim to the targets surrounding this would be way more useful for a tank. Take away the minor fracture from power of the light and give that ability a little something extra either an increase in its damage or give urself a damage buff when you have it up

I love your change to radiant ward that would come in handy

Uriel_Nocturne

I have a Light armored DPS Templar, but I don't PvP... anything, and I don't do Trials/Arenas.

I feel left out...

NightbladeMechanics

Mumyo wrote: »

I am really sad we Stamplars lost major mending. I just see disadvantages anywhere i look. Blacklash is one nice thing to burst but thats basically it except for purge.
I don't see any buildoptions since u are bound to jabs and that bores me. If u try to avoid such a build u are in disadvantage to anything else.

If you don't enjoy jabs and don't value purify or backlash.....you should honestly try out a new class. Stamplar is the top dog class on live and PTS, even after losing major mending, in large part because of those three abilities.

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

I have a Light armored DPS Templar, but I don't PvP... anything, and I don't do Trials/Arenas.

I feel left out...

Go play then.

Saint_Bud

In pve, when heavy attacks build become the meta, templar deleted form a dps role. Also the new tanking meta only works on a dk, so also no reason for a templar. Only place left is as a healer, but thre are few week left to morrowind goes live, so zos can find ways to make a templar as healar also not viable to. They still give there best to make this reall.

For pvp, remove eclipse from the game and replace it with blinding flaches (original jesus beam skill), make blazing shield working on a non troll build an give he stun to blazig shards back. But this would be unic class skills and this is not wanted.

And dont forget to make a heavy attack mdk or a heavy attack pet sorc ready when you are want to cuntine playing as a damag dealer.

AtorOAlikr

@GallantGuardian


I just wish zos would help the class using logic and reason most of their changes are so unreasonable. Its like half the time they don't even try to work the problem they just give us something and hope we don't notice its crap.

Lore_lai

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

Also Blazing shards need to be rolled back to where it was, just remove the ability to stun multiple enemies.

Why do people keep saying this?! Aaargh! It never did that! It only stunned ONE target!
The only time it did anything like that was when Luminous Shard morph was broken and it disoriented multiples, but that was a bug and it got fixed. Blazing only had 1 stun.

Tonturri

Isn't there an unused (mostly) morph of that that absorb shield ability? The one that deals damage on activation instead of when it pops.

Maybe change it to scale half on health, half on magicka, and CC one person when the shield is depleted. Or half stam half health, or half stam half magicka.

Likely would need some tuning to avoid more shield stack whining threads, but hopefully the concept appeals to people.

Kilandros

Templar is the most balanced class in the game right now. I play a light armor Magplar DPS in PvP and it's a lot of fun--but it has its limitations.

NBrookus

WhiteMage wrote: »

I don't have an amazing solution to this, but I have a few ideas. Perhaps backlash could be unpurgable. Perhaps, when purged, backlash would release all of its stored damage. Unfortunately, the former leaves little counterplay, while the latter reintroduces very little burst. The ultimate problem is Templars have no reliable tools for killing other Templars. I think this needs attention.

Is this sarcasm? You really want the one, pathetic counter to Backlash that is only reliably available to one class to be removed?

So you met a templar you couldn't kill. Could they kill you? If not, bow and walk away.

WhiteMage

NBrookus wrote: »

WhiteMage wrote: »

I don't have an amazing solution to this, but I have a few ideas. Perhaps backlash could be unpurgable. Perhaps, when purged, backlash would release all of its stored damage. Unfortunately, the former leaves little counterplay, while the latter reintroduces very little burst. The ultimate problem is Templars have no reliable tools for killing other Templars. I think this needs attention.

Is this sarcasm? You really want the one, pathetic counter to Backlash that is only reliably available to one class to be removed?

So you met a templar you couldn't kill. Could they kill you? If not, bow and walk away.

WhiteMage wrote: »

I don't have an amazing solution to this, but I have a few ideas. Perhaps backlash could be unpurgable. Perhaps, when purged, backlash would release all of its stored damage. Unfortunately, the former leaves little counterplay, while the latter reintroduces very little burst. The ultimate problem is Templars have no reliable tools for killing other Templars. I think this needs attention.

Of course I know that would make backlash too OP. It's verging on that already that I'm pretty worried it will be nerfed as is. Looking past that for a moment, it is the only real burst that magplars have, but you can't use it against a Templar because you can't lock them down for 4-6 seconds (or more, as would probably be necessary) to stop them from purging it. Extended Ritual is the full-stop counter to backlash (I say counter but it doesn't actually "counter" it. It just negates it.) and the result of that is no real Templar v Templar burst.

I'm specced into full damage (well, almost full). A lot of sacrifices have to be made to reach that damage level, including comfortable sustain and defensive capabilities. It really gets me that I can make all these sacrifices, I can make my magplar this vulnerable, but there are still opponents that I can't reasonably be expected to be able to kill. I am soft. I am squishy. My backlash HURTS. That's the price I pay, but put me up against a Templar diligent enough to purge backlash and I surrendered all of that defense for nothing. I'm empty-handed. I might as well swap it out for harness, stand in channeled focus and shield stack and never lose to another magplar again, because he doesn't have the tools to kill me either, unless I stick my neck out to try to kill him.

Backlash doesn't necessarily even have to change, templars just need a way to burst other templars. And I feel like I should mention that making backlash unpurgable would introduce that vulnerability to my magplar as well lol. I'm kind of saying "Buff me!" and "Nerf me!" at the same time.

I would reap, in full, both the benefits and detriments of this change. As would all templars.

LuxLunae

Someone tell me some good stamplar builds for morrowind that I can try on pts?

Tinus_92

Got a pve magplar DD and done the most difficult content with it. In organized groups sustain is good on live, and may be doable on the PTS (which I need to test, waiting on EU chars.). When you won't be able to get the sustain, (without sacrifying current damage) you may as well go sorc heavy attacking. Templar DDs are already being replaced by sorcs on live in the high-level raidgroups, me being one of the last ones not switched yet. Also considered a move to magDK DD, but, sustain...

lunalitetempler

Its just you.

bikerangelo

A soft CC on spear shards would be nice instead of just gutting all of its CC mechanics. I imagine if you throw up spears into the air and they come down, someone's feet are bound to be impaled in place.

Other than that, I want major mending back. My stamplar is way too squishy in medium armor without it, even my stamblade is tankier at the moment.

ofSunhold

Meh, never mind. After a few hours on the PTS, I'm too frustrated and pissed off to be coherent about this.

utb99

Backlash should go off if you purge it tbh instead of disappearing entirely

Arbitrator

Templars need an AoE CC in their class tree! Just make Spear Shards an immobilize on all targets just like the dragon knights talons.