ZOS: If you care about ESO, PLEASE TAKE TIME TO READ

Wanderer202

On the subject of not learning from history, though: When Elder Scrolls Online had its final beta before release, everyone... EVERYONE EVER complained endlessly about how terrible the game was. Unplayable, un-interesting, poor combat etc. etc. Between the beta and the final official release, many of the systems that were in place even ONLY WEEKS before had changed for the better based on player feedback in the Betas.

The game itself has also evolved since launch to be, in general consensus from most people who played then, and have come back to play since the release of TU or OT, MUCH MUCH BETTER than it was at release. So isn't it a bit unfair to ask that Zenimax learn from history, and then as a player base completely ignore Zeni's history of actually changing the game before AND after release to try and improve it?

YES there are cases where they have ignored certain requests of players in favor of releasing new content, most of which are quality of life improvements, some of which are bug fixes, and some are balance changes. In my experience in most MMOs, there is no way to satisfy all the "balance" requests. If something is "fixed" the other half of the player base will scream about how it is wrong and broken, or not good enough. At least some of the time, that same player base only thinks they know what will be best, but in reality it favors overbalancing their favourite class, or would end up breaking the game completely with unforseen consequences. A lot of people have made screaming fits of frothing rage a full time profession because the world owes them something. Most balance changes have to be implemented, tested on an large scale, and observed over a period of time before they can be determined to be a success or failure. That is how real life works.

WARDEN ISN'T FINISHED, NEITHER IS NORROWIND. For the love of god, let them test the damn thing and make changes before saying that they aren't listening and the game will be ruined forever. EVERY new class released ever in the history of MMOs is broken before release, and usually for a little while after as the players find creative ways to exploit them in ways that they just couldn't conceive. That's my two cents.

ChandraNalaar

I think this post was really well written, OP. You eloquently phrased what I and my friends have been thinking since these patch notes have been released. We want to progress and have fun and spend time in ESO, but why bother if all of our efforts will be for nothing so easily? Games are, in concept, to have fun. Yes, we raid and compete and there's things such as E-Sports, but the majority of gamers are not competing in games for their paycheck. Games are meant for you to have fun with, and when a company makes changes such as these, it's not fun anymore. I want challenges and to be pushed to be better, but the PTS just isn't fun. It's not challenging, it's miserable. It's not fun to try and figure out how to do serious end-game content when you are nerfed at every turn.

MacCait

Wanderer202 wrote: »

On the subject of not learning from history, though: When Elder Scrolls Online had its final beta before release, everyone... EVERYONE EVER complained endlessly about how terrible the game was. Unplayable, un-interesting, poor combat etc. etc. Between the beta and the final official release, many of the systems that were in place even ONLY WEEKS before had changed for the better based on player feedback in the Betas.

The game itself has also evolved since launch to be, in general consensus from most people who played then, and have come back to play since the release of TU or OT, MUCH MUCH BETTER than it was at release. So isn't it a bit unfair to ask that Zenimax learn from history, and then as a player base completely ignore Zeni's history of actually changing the game before AND after release to try and improve it?

YES there are cases where they have ignored certain requests of players in favor of releasing new content, most of which are quality of life improvements, some of which are bug fixes, and some are balance changes. In my experience in most MMOs, there is no way to satisfy all the "balance" requests. If something is "fixed" the other half of the player base will scream about how it is wrong and broken, or not good enough. At least some of the time, that same player base only thinks they know what will be best, but in reality it favors overbalancing their favourite class, or would end up breaking the game completely with unforseen consequences. A lot of people have made screaming fits of frothing rage a full time profession because the world owes them something. Most balance changes have to be implemented, tested on an large scale, and observed over a period of time before they can be determined to be a success or failure. That is how real life works.

WARDEN ISN'T FINISHED, NEITHER IS NORROWIND. For the love of god, let them test the damn thing and make changes before saying that they aren't listening and the game will be ruined forever. EVERY new class released ever in the history of MMOs is broken before release, and usually for a little while after as the players find creative ways to exploit them in ways that they just couldn't conceive. That's my two cents.

You make some fair points to be sure. However, there is more to this than you mention. It is not merely a case of the Warden, and Morrowind not being ready, or even that they will be unbalanced upon release, or even buggy. These are things that I for one would accept as part of the ongoing process. However there is much more at stake here. This is not the usual patch issues we are talking about, but very very BIG changes all made at once.

The main problem with that is not even ZOS can predict how that will affect everyone. If we are to believe their stated intention, (as discussed in a few posts back) it is to (using their term) "lower the ceiling and raise the floor"... In plain speak, to nerf the elite 1% of top end players (the ceiling) while helping the lower end players (who form the mass majority).

However, that is NOT what these changes will do. None of it has been tested. They rely on PTS players to test it. However, even looking at the changes on paper, some of us can see that these drastic changes are going to crucify the AVERAGE PLAYER, and make the game incredibly more difficult. So one of my points was that the elite players (the ceiling) will just find new ways around this; given that they are the top end players, like a difficult challenge, and have access to top end gear that the average player cannot get their hands on without completing Vet trials and things such as VMA. All the while, the average players who form the mass majority of players will find these changes extremely difficult. A few of us were able to see this straight away on paper, however PTS players have been confirming this after testing. It is the average player who is going to be hurt by these drastic changes.

You mention satisfying balance requests, and use analogies like the history of the beginning of the game. These are totally different things compared with this current scenario. No one has requested these drastic changes. Well known players were invited to ZOS, given the impression their advice was taken on board, then THIS happened which is why certain players who attended, have been pretty angry, with one well known leaving altogether. So balance requests have nothing to do with this. This is from ZOS not from the players.

If you read the whole post and didn't just skim it, you will see that I mention another game where drastic changes were created in opposition of the customer base responses to those changes. The reason this is pertinent is because the same thing is happening here. How it specifically relates to being a similar situation is that in that game, the very JOY of playing was taken away from the customer. Meaning customers were no longer enjoying the product. The very experience of playing had become frustrating and unrewarding. This is what is happening here. Additionally, the comparison was used as a warning, becuase I and many others, presumably yourself too, care about this game and do not want to see it fail. The comparison was used becuase of the negative environment that is currently being experienced in game. This is no ones fault but ZOS, and only they have the power to ease that negative state before it gets way out of hand, which is occuring right now.

The negative emotion and the bad timing of it are key points to my post. The reason is explained... because when any customer loses the joy in a product, losing FEELING good and excited about a product, they'll simply drop it. This isn't a problem if someone naturally comes to this point. It happens to everyone. However it IS A PROBLEM, when this happens on MASS. It hurts the game, it hurts the population, and ultimately it will eventually hurt the very company in terms of sales.

So to answer your question:

Wanderer202 wrote: »

So isn't it a bit unfair to ask that Zenimax learn from history, and then as a player base completely ignore Zeni's history of actually changing the game before AND after release to try and improve it?

No, it is not a bit unfair at all. Because those things are unrelated. And also, because the intention of this post wasn't an attack but was made from the good intent of caring about the game, yet seeing the community both in game and on the forums spin out of control by the bombshell they dropped. This game is their baby. They are responsible for it as a business to make profit. They are also responsible for the incredibly bad timing of releasing these drastic changes at the time of a NEW product launch. So no, it's not unfair to ask them to consider things and give them the low down on some history, when it's in their best interest, and their best interest is the very nature of this post.

You also state:

Wanderer202 wrote: »

Most balance changes have to be implemented, tested on an large scale, and observed over a period of time before they can be determined to be a success or failure. That is how real life works.

Yes, you are totally correct and I agrree with you. However, that is not exactly what is occuring here. Within a system of scientific testing, the rule is to change one thing (or at least a small amount of things), and then see how that takes place, observing those changes over a period of time. But this IS NOT what is happening here.

ZOS have gunned down anything remotely having anything to do with sustain; including CP system, Armours, Classes, Racial passive… anything to do with sustain has all now been drastically changed. That is a huge amount of change. There is no harmony in this process and it's impossible to track the variables. No scientist would ever approach testing in this way. You change one thing and then examine the results so that you can see what influence something has and how that has resulted in change. You don’t hack the whole thing to pieces and then try to see if it helped. This is a manic approach where you will never know what has affected what.

If you look a few posts back, I reccomend people to check out a video placed in another post. Not sure who's post it is, but the link is there. The video itself belongs to Gilliamtherogue, who does a fantastic job of showing you his PTS tests compared with the current state of the game. I highly reccomend watching the last 12 mintues if not the whole thing. His summary says it all. The changes will not help the mass majority of average players, but in fact will crucify them.

Wolfs_Blood

Despite wrote: »

Jumping to conclusion is fun and rewarding!

Quoting for visibility.

This should be on top of your post OP.

MacCait

Wolfs_Blood wrote: »

Despite wrote: »

Jumping to conclusion is fun and rewarding!

Quoting for visibility.

This should be on top of your post OP.

If you would like to add something constructive to the conversation, please explain where you think I have jumped to conclusions. However, this would mean you would actually have to READ the post for you to make a valid point.

bareheiny

dimensional wrote: »

This post has so many incorrect statements I don't know where to begin. Good lord.

Maybe start at the beginning?

Although perhaps it may be a tad more difficult than simply posting a throw-away comment.

nemisan

I think this is the best post I have ever read on here...zos should hire you as head of customer relationships...gj

Gomumon

@MacCait Good read and great writing. Thanks for taking the time to articulate, at length, how so many of us feel.

I also played DCUO on PS4. I think Quantum was out by the time I joined, but they had just released Rage which was literally invincible as long as you cast a single skill before you rage crashed. Naturally, I bought it because I didn't want to be left out for not being able to tank or DPS as easy as everyone else.

One thing you didn't mention, however, that will create an even bigger sense of betrayal is if they revert all these changes after a substantial number of people buy the Warden. I mean, many people may feel justified in the fact that paying $40 for a class (cause we all know that ESO Morrowind is not going to play like TES III: Morrowind as far as quest fulfillment goes) should give them somewhat of an edge. Imagine the uproar from an entire group of people who suddenly feel buyer's remorse as their Warden is nerfed to the ground (kind of like Rage was in DCUO) and are left with nothing substantial for their payment.

It just seems like a huge mess that can be avoided by never letting these changes go live. I have also been refunded for my 180 days ESO Plus and Morrowind Pre-order, and will wait and see how this game turns out. As I have with Destiny, DCUO, and Warframe, once I leave I will likely never bother coming back. Hell, I just used EVGA's Step-Up program to trade my 1080 my wife got me for Xmas to a 1080 ti, something that could be put to MUCH better use than fkn ESO.

I stayed because I had fun. But the second it stops being fun for me is the second I will find a game that is. Hopefully, next time, I will find a developer with a good track record of satisfying their customers. My rationale was that, since Bethesda always aims to please, there's no way their sister company is going to fail in that department either.

Oh, how different they are.

JinMori

MacCait wrote: »

Wolfs_Blood wrote: »

Despite wrote: »

Jumping to conclusion is fun and rewarding!

Quoting for visibility.

This should be on top of your post OP.

If you would like to add something constructive to the conversation, please explain where you think I have jumped to conclusions. However, this would mean you would actually have to READ the post for you to make a valid point.

Jumping to conclusions huh?

Well not really, the thing they pulled off with warden are pretty shady if you ask me, and it's pretty clear the direction that they wanna take right now.

And i find it disgusting that they are removing everything that was fun and interesting about this game.

You said stop jumping to conclusions basically, but if no one says anything then we will have a real mess in our hands.

I already am thinking about leaving this game if this is the direction the game wanna take, and recently i stopped playing, because why even make a build if you are gonna be thrashed in a few weeks?

Thank god that there are more people like op, and less people like you. Otherwise we would always be too late to change things.

And also what exactly have you brought to the conversation? A child could have said that statement.

Gomumon

Wanderer202 wrote: »

A lot of people have made screaming fits of frothing rage a full time profession because the world owes them something. Most balance changes have to be implemented, tested on an large scale, and observed over a period of time before they can be determined to be a success or failure. That is how real life works.

WARDEN ISN'T FINISHED, NEITHER IS NORROWIND. For the love of god, let them test the damn thing and make changes before saying that they aren't listening and the game will be ruined forever. EVERY new class released ever in the history of MMOs is broken before release, and usually for a little while after as the players find creative ways to exploit them in ways that they just couldn't conceive. That's my two cents.

Nobody is saying the world owes them anything. People are saying that, if ZOS wants to continue receiving their money, ZOS owes them a better experience. Nobody owes ZOS anything!

Let them test, if they must--they can do so without my Plus subscription and Morrowind Pre-order.

Edit: Also, this isn't just talking about the Warden or Morrowind. Those will, understandably, take time to work out the kinks. But they've had 3 f***ing years to "test" the 4 classes we already have. Seems sort of insane to add a 5th to the mix when they can't even balance 4. But, again, this isn't even about individual class balance but about a total reworking of the game. Your argument is more of a nirvana fallacy than a valid point. The one valid point you made was that most people deemed this game unplayable in its early stages; ironically when sustain was like they're trying to make it now.

brandonv516

JinMori wrote: »

MacCait wrote: »

Wolfs_Blood wrote: »

Despite wrote: »

Jumping to conclusion is fun and rewarding!

Quoting for visibility.

This should be on top of your post OP.

If you would like to add something constructive to the conversation, please explain where you think I have jumped to conclusions. However, this would mean you would actually have to READ the post for you to make a valid point.

Thank god that there are more people like op, and less people like you. Otherwise we would always be too late to change things.

And also what exactly have you brought to the conversation? A child could have said that statement.

The person you quoted was THE OP. Have a fine day!

JinMori

brandonv516 wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

MacCait wrote: »

Wolfs_Blood wrote: »

Despite wrote: »

Jumping to conclusion is fun and rewarding!

Quoting for visibility.

This should be on top of your post OP.

If you would like to add something constructive to the conversation, please explain where you think I have jumped to conclusions. However, this would mean you would actually have to READ the post for you to make a valid point.

Thank god that there are more people like op, and less people like you. Otherwise we would always be too late to change things.

And also what exactly have you brought to the conversation? A child could have said that statement.

The person you quoted was THE OP. Have a fine day!

Read the previous quotes before leaving a reply....

brandonv516

JinMori wrote: »

Read the previous quotes before leaving a reply....

The quote that shows up that you replied to was the OP's quote. Stop confusing people and we won't have this issue. Instead quote the actual people you want to respond to. Sevens blessings to you.

Drishtan

OP Has some great points! Please take the time to read this!

MacCait

JinMori wrote: »

MacCait wrote: »

Wolfs_Blood wrote: »

Despite wrote: »

Jumping to conclusion is fun and rewarding!

Quoting for visibility.

This should be on top of your post OP.

If you would like to add something constructive to the conversation, please explain where you think I have jumped to conclusions. However, this would mean you would actually have to READ the post for you to make a valid point.

Jumping to conclusions huh?

Well not really, the thing they pulled off with warden are pretty shady if you ask me, and it's pretty clear the direction that they wanna take right now.

And i find it disgusting that they are removing everything that was fun and interesting about this game.

You said stop jumping to conclusions basically, but if no one says anything then we will have a real mess in our hands.

I already am thinking about leaving this game if this is the direction the game wanna take, and recently i stopped playing, because why even make a build if you are gonna be thrashed in a few weeks?

Thank god that there are more people like op, and less people like you. Otherwise we would always be too late to change things.

And also what exactly have you brought to the conversation? A child could have said that statement.

I WAS a litttle confused there for a minute LOL but it's cool I think you qouted me answering the person who accused me of jumping to conclusions, rather than the person who actually accused me, but scrolling through your qoutes and re-reading I see what happened. NP

Zyrudin

Wanderer202 wrote: »

On the subject of not learning from history, though: When Elder Scrolls Online had its final beta before release, everyone... EVERYONE EVER complained endlessly about how terrible the game was. Unplayable, un-interesting, poor combat etc. etc. Between the beta and the final official release, many of the systems that were in place even ONLY WEEKS before had changed for the better based on player feedback in the Betas.

The game itself has also evolved since launch to be, in general consensus from most people who played then, and have come back to play since the release of TU or OT, MUCH MUCH BETTER than it was at release. So isn't it a bit unfair to ask that Zenimax learn from history, and then as a player base completely ignore Zeni's history of actually changing the game before AND after release to try and improve it?

YES there are cases where they have ignored certain requests of players in favor of releasing new content, most of which are quality of life improvements, some of which are bug fixes, and some are balance changes. In my experience in most MMOs, there is no way to satisfy all the "balance" requests. If something is "fixed" the other half of the player base will scream about how it is wrong and broken, or not good enough. At least some of the time, that same player base only thinks they know what will be best, but in reality it favors overbalancing their favourite class, or would end up breaking the game completely with unforseen consequences. A lot of people have made screaming fits of frothing rage a full time profession because the world owes them something. Most balance changes have to be implemented, tested on an large scale, and observed over a period of time before they can be determined to be a success or failure. That is how real life works.

WARDEN ISN'T FINISHED, NEITHER IS NORROWIND. For the love of god, let them test the damn thing and make changes before saying that they aren't listening and the game will be ruined forever. EVERY new class released ever in the history of MMOs is broken before release, and usually for a little while after as the players find creative ways to exploit them in ways that they just couldn't conceive. That's my two cents.

This post is important and relevant exactly because the new update is currently being tested.
If tests are underway how can constructive feedback not help?
This post is relevant now, exactly BECAUSE the update is only weeks away.

Besides, I didn't see any rage in this original post, so that part wouldn't apply to this particular thread, although I agree it is visible that it has been the rule in the forums.

The way @MacCait has used his voice in this forum should be taken as an example and all discussions should be as relevant.

Elvenpath

Nice post, when i red this, i changed my mind, i will wait for everything to settle before buy morrowind or never buy it if things keep going like this. I'm not alone too, playing with my wife, i'm speaking for 2 dedicated players who plays since beta. We need more players like you to improve game because no one wants to invest their precious time to ruined game.

Titansteele

Can I simply add this note for ZOS`s consideration.

You have a real trend here, your customer base is raising a warning flag and I know that flags have been raised before over other changes and it amounted to nothing. People still played after complaints that the housing mats drop rate was not large enough. People still played and bought houses when everyone complained about the lack of any real "function" in housing. I genuinely believe that this time it will be different.

People are feeling properly disheartened. My friends are not running trials anymore, people who wanted to do that day in and day out simply don't want too as they think these changes are too drastic and the hundreds of hours of effort put into characters are ruined.

Looking at your live servers if you are not seeing a drop off of players I would consider that is because people are still coming together in the game but the there is a cloud over people`s mood around the impact of what these changes will bring.
It is sensible to balance feedback on here off against what your stats are telling you, I applaud you for that but do not fall into the trap of thinking that statistics can predict the future

Change is good, I like change but It seems like you have been conducting surgery with a scalpel, carefully cutting and then threw your hands up in the air, screamed "screw it" and just taken an axe to the patient at the end.

luen79rwb17_ESO

Wanderer202 wrote: »

On the subject of not learning from history, though: When Elder Scrolls Online had its final beta before release, everyone... EVERYONE EVER complained endlessly about how terrible the game was. Unplayable, un-interesting, poor combat etc. etc. Between the beta and the final official release, many of the systems that were in place even ONLY WEEKS before had changed for the better based on player feedback in the Betas.

The game itself has also evolved since launch to be, in general consensus from most people who played then, and have come back to play since the release of TU or OT, MUCH MUCH BETTER than it was at release. So isn't it a bit unfair to ask that Zenimax learn from history, and then as a player base completely ignore Zeni's history of actually changing the game before AND after release to try and improve it?

YES there are cases where they have ignored certain requests of players in favor of releasing new content, most of which are quality of life improvements, some of which are bug fixes, and some are balance changes. In my experience in most MMOs, there is no way to satisfy all the "balance" requests. If something is "fixed" the other half of the player base will scream about how it is wrong and broken, or not good enough. At least some of the time, that same player base only thinks they know what will be best, but in reality it favors overbalancing their favourite class, or would end up breaking the game completely with unforseen consequences. A lot of people have made screaming fits of frothing rage a full time profession because the world owes them something. Most balance changes have to be implemented, tested on an large scale, and observed over a period of time before they can be determined to be a success or failure. That is how real life works.

WARDEN ISN'T FINISHED, NEITHER IS NORROWIND. For the love of god, let them test the damn thing and make changes before saying that they aren't listening and the game will be ruined forever. EVERY new class released ever in the history of MMOs is broken before release, and usually for a little while after as the players find creative ways to exploit them in ways that they just couldn't conceive. That's my two cents.

Totally agree with this. I understand many people here, especially console players weren't around during the 1st year of the game. But back then it was totally natural to have skills like equilibrium slotted for both PVP and PVE. Now if we make a poll about it I'm sure the vast majority of people don't even have one point in that skill.

Back then "resource management" (notice it's never been called "max pool management") on the magicka side of things consisted on playing with your 2 lower resource pools in order to gain magicka back. Thus shields helped covering up your missing hp (equilibrium) or the lack of Dodge roll due to missing Stam (case of sorcs with dark exchange).

I believe that "tweaks" must be made to current changes but I do think that they're in the right path of setting things straight to what they originally were.

Betsararie

This is a great post. These changes are bad news.

I love the game, but the changes as they are are not going to make it better.

I can very easily start to hate the game if it becomes awful.


word of advice: making money is all well and good but I cannot say I agree with the approach you're taking with this patch.

MacCait

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Wanderer202 wrote: »

On the subject of not learning from history, though: When Elder Scrolls Online had its final beta before release, everyone... EVERYONE EVER complained endlessly about how terrible the game was. Unplayable, un-interesting, poor combat etc. etc. Between the beta and the final official release, many of the systems that were in place even ONLY WEEKS before had changed for the better based on player feedback in the Betas.

The game itself has also evolved since launch to be, in general consensus from most people who played then, and have come back to play since the release of TU or OT, MUCH MUCH BETTER than it was at release. So isn't it a bit unfair to ask that Zenimax learn from history, and then as a player base completely ignore Zeni's history of actually changing the game before AND after release to try and improve it?

YES there are cases where they have ignored certain requests of players in favor of releasing new content, most of which are quality of life improvements, some of which are bug fixes, and some are balance changes. In my experience in most MMOs, there is no way to satisfy all the "balance" requests. If something is "fixed" the other half of the player base will scream about how it is wrong and broken, or not good enough. At least some of the time, that same player base only thinks they know what will be best, but in reality it favors overbalancing their favourite class, or would end up breaking the game completely with unforseen consequences. A lot of people have made screaming fits of frothing rage a full time profession because the world owes them something. Most balance changes have to be implemented, tested on an large scale, and observed over a period of time before they can be determined to be a success or failure. That is how real life works.

WARDEN ISN'T FINISHED, NEITHER IS NORROWIND. For the love of god, let them test the damn thing and make changes before saying that they aren't listening and the game will be ruined forever. EVERY new class released ever in the history of MMOs is broken before release, and usually for a little while after as the players find creative ways to exploit them in ways that they just couldn't conceive. That's my two cents.

Totally agree with this. I understand many people here, especially console players weren't around during the 1st year of the game. But back then it was totally natural to have skills like equilibrium slotted for both PVP and PVE. Now if we make a poll about it I'm sure the vast majority of people don't even have one point in that skill.

Back then "resource management" (notice it's never been called "max pool management") on the magicka side of things consisted on playing with your 2 lower resource pools in order to gain magicka back. Thus shields helped covering up your missing hp (equilibrium) or the lack of Dodge roll due to missing Stam (case of sorcs with dark exchange).

I believe that "tweaks" must be made to current changes but I do think that they're in the right path of setting things straight to what they originally were.

It's STILL not what this thread is about (see my reply to this post).

You believe in "tweaks". I do too, many of us do. This isn't whats happening here. This is hacking it apart, not fine tuning.

You also speak about returning it... That's devolution, not evolution.

This thread is largely about the nature of these changes being a mass hack job; and the timing of these changes being ill timed at the time of a new product launch; but most of all the thread is about how these changes have unsettled the community both in game and on the forums, creating a cloud of uncertainty that will last for 2 months untill release. The thread is about how dangerous it is to strip the joy out of the game; and how players are consumers; where consumers will drop a product when it no longer becomes an enjoyable experience.

In terms of this individuals post. I agree with what he is saying too... it just doesn't appy to what this thread is specifically about IF you actually read the post

Whether people agree or disagree on things like this, the storm is brewing and people are disapearing... this is a signal that this game could go through a long rough patch with a loss of many players, and in turn a loss of ZOS sales

Violynne

MacCait wrote: »

PLEASE take time to read this if you care about the game and where it's heading

Let's hope no one at ZoS wastes their time.

Unfortunately, someone at ZoS will probably be the one who suffers from this entitled, and misinformed, opinion piece.

Here's the tl;dr version:
- I have MMO experience, so my opinion makes me an expert, especially on how to run a business.

- I'm complaining about changes on a test server because I believe they affect my game now.

- Continue, and the world will end as we know it.

- I completely failed to pay attention to my own post that DCUO was purchased by another company, making it 100% irrelevant how this applies to ZoS.

- Despite any changes forthcoming, I'll still play ESO because I like the game.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: Removed Gina's name as I agree it wasn't right to target a specific person. Carry on with my tongue-in-cheek disagreement with the OP's opinion.

Betsararie

I can't help but think they just stumbled into making a good game.

Like they just rolled the dice and somehow ended up with the game as it is now, all the while they had no idea what they were doing or even what goes on in the game or how to play it.

These patch notes suggest that.

Well now you are responsible for the enjoyment of a great deal of people so please do listen to the feedback.

Zyrudin

Violynne wrote: »

Let's hope no one at ZoS wastes their time.

Unfortunately, Gina will probably be the one who suffers from this entitled, and misinformed, opinion piece.

Here's the tl;dr version:
- I have MMO experience, so my opinion makes me an expert, especially on how to run a business.

- I'm complaining about changes on a test server because I believe they affect my game now.

- Continue, and the world will end as we know it.

- I completely failed to pay attention to my own post that DCUO was purchased by another company, making it 100% irrelevant how this applies to ZoS.

- Despite any changes forthcoming, I'll still play ESO because I like the game.

Hope this helps, Gina.

Let me hope (as I do not assume to speak for anyone else but me, so I won't use "Let us") that ZOS does pay attention to a properly formulated feedback from their customers. I agree that rage threads will probably not have much effect, but this kind of thread is what forums are for.

I'll even tell you that I am for the direction and intent behind a good chunk of the changes, and support most of them, in fact.

What I am also for is a good, healthy, discussion without the use of ironic subtext that tries to talk down a diverging opinion by trying to mock it while naming the Community Manager.
Gina is here to communicate to us not what she personally thinks or feels, but what ZOS has to say. Your kind of responses is what makes her job harder, not easier. It is your kind of responses that steer threads away from rational discussions into personal feuds - leaving behind the actual object being discussed. How many feedback opportunities have been lost this way?

Jemcrystal

Zyrudin wrote: »

Violynne wrote: »

Let's hope no one at ZoS wastes their time.

Unfortunately, Gina will probably be the one who suffers from this entitled, and misinformed, opinion piece.

Here's the tl;dr version:
- I have MMO experience, so my opinion makes me an expert, especially on how to run a business.

- I'm complaining about changes on a test server because I believe they affect my game now.

- Continue, and the world will end as we know it.

- I completely failed to pay attention to my own post that DCUO was purchased by another company, making it 100% irrelevant how this applies to ZoS.

- Despite any changes forthcoming, I'll still play ESO because I like the game.

Hope this helps, Gina.

Let me hope (as I do not assume to speak for anyone else but me, so I won't use "Let us") that ZOS does pay attention to a properly formulated feedback from their customers. I agree that rage threads will probably not have much effect, but this kind of thread is what forums are for.

I'll even tell you that I am for the direction and intent behind a good chunk of the changes, and support most of them, in fact.

What I am also for is a good, healthy, discussion without the use of ironic subtext that tries to talk down a diverging opinion by trying to mock it while naming the Community Manager.
Gina is here to communicate to us not what she personally thinks or feels, but what ZOS has to say. Your kind of responses is what makes her job harder, not easier. It is your kind of responses that steer threads away from rational discussions into personal feuds - leaving behind the actual object being discussed. How many feedback opportunities have been lost this way?

Preach it! The Gina be good but sometimes she's the runner with the bad news. We like the Gina just not the news. Goooo Gina!!


.

Violynne

Zyrudin wrote: »

What I am also for is a good, healthy, discussion without the use of ironic subtext that tries to talk down a diverging opinion by trying to mock it while naming the Community Manager.

I'm confident you're confused on the target of what I'm mocking.

Gina is here to communicate to us not what she personally thinks or feels, but what ZOS has to say. Your kind of responses is what makes her job harder, not easier. It is your kind of responses that steer threads away from rational discussions into personal feuds - leaving behind the actual object being discussed. How many feedback opportunities have been lost this way?

Gina's name was used simply because I see her (personally) as the most active, but regardless, you're correct. I shouldn't subject ZoS community members to my retort, especially since my target was the OP's post.

But, now I'm going to counter the statement this discussion isn't easier doing this. I disagree in this regard.

The OP pretty much targeted the entire company with a false sense of entitlement and an underscore of an active threat of "losing sales" on the premise of what they believe is "ruining the game".

If you, or anyone else, thinks this is an active discussion, well, I suppose I'm just too damn old for what constitutes a conversation this day.

Discussing a concern over the changes: check
Making idle threats on leaving: nope
Making false and unsupported allegations that other players will leave: absolutely not
Comparing ESO to any other game: nope

I'll edit my post to remove Gina's name.

Zyrudin

Violynne wrote: »

Zyrudin wrote: »

What I am also for is a good, healthy, discussion without the use of ironic subtext that tries to talk down a diverging opinion by trying to mock it while naming the Community Manager.

I'm confident you're confused on the target of what I'm mocking.

Gina is here to communicate to us not what she personally thinks or feels, but what ZOS has to say. Your kind of responses is what makes her job harder, not easier. It is your kind of responses that steer threads away from rational discussions into personal feuds - leaving behind the actual object being discussed. How many feedback opportunities have been lost this way?

Gina's name was used simply because I see her (personally) as the most active, but regardless, you're correct. I shouldn't subject ZoS community members to my retort, especially since my target was the OP's post.

But, now I'm going to counter the statement this discussion isn't easier doing this. I disagree in this regard.

The OP pretty much targeted the entire company with a false sense of entitlement and an underscore of an active threat of "losing sales" on the premise of what they believe is "ruining the game".

If you, or anyone else, thinks this is an active discussion, well, I suppose I'm just too damn old for what constitutes a conversation this day.

Discussing a concern over the changes: check
Making idle threats on leaving: nope
Making false and unsupported allegations that other players will leave: absolutely not
Comparing ESO to any other game: nope

I'll edit my post to remove Gina's name.

I may be too old too (who knows? Maybe even older than yourself), but I still fail to see your counter arguments on the actual subject of the incoming patch changes. You disagree with the OP - on what he thinks the community will do, on how he compares it with other games, on how he believes ZOS will lose sales and so on - but do you have something to say, to add to the discussion? Counter the actual opinions presented. I am following this because I want to hear from the other side as well, in a thread that isn't a mere rage pit.

Certainly, in your day, an active discussion didn't include disregarding on the basis of simply not agreeing with - in my day, it certainly wasn't, I would have to present my case for or against as well.

It is not by merely focusing on the fact that you disagree with the OP's opinion that you are contributing, much less being dismissive.

As I said, I support the direction of the changes, even though I disagree with some of them here and there, and still I feel that this kind of thread is necessary before any actual changes are implemented, because, in one way or another, we'll all "meet each other" in the game. It's our place, not mine, his or yours - as is this forum.

I honestly think we can all do better than that.

Nelson_Rebel

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom


@Wrobel

If you read anything on the forums, PLEASE read this. This guy has 100% captured exactly how several thousands of players feel.

Just from the past 3 years alone I have felt, seen, and heard many of these issues slowly but surely creeping into ESO.

Don't get me wrong I enjoy playing this wonderful game more than any other one in years. This is my first true MMO experience, and I hate seeing it destroy itself from the inside by alienating it's entire playerbase over and over. This is 2017 people (gamers specifically) are far more informed and interconnected than ever before. The vast majority of players have always given feedback. Most of it constructive, some it not, but please with Morrowind I actually believe this is your games tipping point into the games Future success.

If you botch this up by imbalancing everyone to make the game forced to play wardens to be relevant, you are going to kill your playerbase. Not immediately but very surely.

Don't allow ESO to follow this path of self-destruction, I want to spend more into ESO and so does almost everyone else, help us HELP YOU!

Violynne

Zyrudin wrote: »

...but do you have something to say, to add to the discussion?

No, I don't. There is nothing to discuss when the argument is one-sided, jaded, and lacking any information which supports such ignorance.

Please note one of my points above:

I'm complaining about changes on a test server because I believe they affect my game now.

Despite the tone, nothing in the OP's post indicates they saw these changes for themselves. Quite the contrary: they're only complaining on hearsay of other vocal members.

The fact he mentioned Deltia's departure completely removes the exact reason why Deltia stated he was leaving the game. It wasn't about the changes. It was about Deltia's life changing, which came directly from his mouth.

Yes, Deltia was upset over some of the patch notes, but they were not the reason he left the game.

Counter the actual opinions presented. I am following this because I want to hear from the other side as well, in a thread that isn't a mere rage pit.

There's no "countering" an opinion. When someone feels as passionately about something as the OP does, nothing is going to change their mind about the subject.

Ever since the patch notes were released, this forum has been in an uproar. Atypical from people who can't take 10 seconds of out their day to say, "Hmm. Some of these seem troubling, perhaps I should get clarification on the changes."

Instead, instant backlash, accusations of greed, destroying the game, and other idiotic hyperbole with most having nothing to go on but patch notes of testing.

That's not a discussion. That's just idiocy spreading like cancer, and far too many jumping on board to "speak their piece" of the "world is falling" over test notes.

Certainly, in your day, an active discussion didn't include disregarding on the basis of simply not agreeing with - in my day, it certainly wasn't, I would have to present my case for or against as well.

Not true, for any time period. Reasonable people have always disregarded nonsense. Everyone else just "agrees", simply because they, too, have formed their opinions on utter ignorance.

The ONLY people whose opinions we should be open to are those who've played the PTS and notes how the changes actively affect the game.

Everyone else should shut up and stop making assumptions or making threats.

It is not by merely focusing on the fact that you disagree with the OP's opinion that you are contributing, much less being dismissive.

It's in my nature to dismiss hyperbole rhetoric.

As I said, I support the direction of the changes, even though I disagree with some of them here and there, and still I feel that this kind of thread is necessary before any actual changes are implemented, because, in one way or another, we'll all "meet each other" in the game. It's our place, not mine, his or yours - as is this forum.

Okay, now I see the problem.

You're misconstruing the OP's post as a discussion. It's not. Decrying anything about lost sales, what another MMO did (or didn't do), blah blah blah takes away from the point of the discussion if it's to be related to the patch notes.

The OP decided the changes were bad without any form of proof.

The OP compared ESO to DCUO (change wise) and asserts what happened with one can happen with the other.

The OP discusses loss of sales without a single shred of proof or confidence the statement carries any fact.

If this is the OP's way of discussing the changes of the PTS, they've got a weird way of doing it.

By the way, one more point: look at the title of this thread. Tell me honestly if someone came to you, passionate about something you enjoy, and said, "If you care..."

There's no room for a discussion here. Hell, you and I have been having a better discussion than what the OP barfed out.

MacCait

Violynne, your ill-mannered posts are full of mistakes and contradiction. It neither adds to the discussion nor is constructive in anyway. All you have done is jump into this thread to troll it with hate mockery and bait, which as I’m sure your aware is against the forum rules, not that you care.

Violynne wrote: »

Here's the tl;dr version:

So you’ve stated it was TDLR (too long to read), but thought you’d troll anyway.

Violynne wrote: »

- I have MMO experience, so my opinion makes me an expert, especially on how to run a business.

Nope. I’ve never stated I’m an expert at anything, including this game, where I’ve stated I’m one of many average player’s. I had worked for one of the largest strategic management consulting firms for many years, and have run my own business for nearly over 2 decades, but I never divulged this and never claimed to be an expert, and still don’t.

Violynne wrote: »

- I'm complaining about changes on a test server because I believe they affect my game now.

Nope. That’s not what has been discussed at all. If you actually read the post you’d get that.

Violynne wrote: »

- Continue, and the world will end as we know it.

Nope. Dramatic and exaggerated. Nothing like this is stated at all in my thread.

Violynne wrote: »

- I completely failed to pay attention to my own post that DCUO was purchased by another company, making it 100% irrelevant how this applies to ZoS.

Nope. That’s not what was discussed and not what the thread is about. Again, if you actually READ the thread you’d understand that. It had to do with the negative emotional state within a game after developers make too many drastic changes all at once, leading to a mass exodus of players as the joy from playing had been removed from the game.

Violynne wrote: »

- Despite any changes forthcoming, I'll still play ESO because I like the game.

Nope. That’s not what I stated.

Violynne wrote: »

Hope this helps.

Nope. Your attempt to troll and derail the conversation is not helpful to anyone, but just comes across as bullish and ignorant.

Violynne wrote: »

EDIT: Removed Gina's name as I agree it wasn't right to target a specific person. Carry on with my tongue-in-cheek disagreement with the OP's opinion.

Err… your still mentioning her name lol.

Violynne wrote: »

Gina's name was used simply because I see her (personally) as the most active, but regardless, you're correct. I shouldn't subject ZoS community members to my retort, especially since my target was the OP's post.

Yep still mentioning her name (facepalm – shakes head)

Violynne wrote: »

But, now I'm going to counter the statement this discussion isn't easier doing this. I disagree in this regard.

Totally didn’t understand what you just said.

Violynne wrote: »

The OP pretty much targeted the entire company with a false sense of entitlement and an underscore of an active threat of "losing sales" on the premise of what they believe is "ruining the game".

Not sure how you have come to the conclusion that I am self-entitled when the post is not about me personally but the community of players both in game and on the forum who are in an emotionally negative state. Again if you read both the post and the many comments from other players who can relate, you’d get that. I’m also not sure how you jump to the conclusion of a threat. If people leave they leave. If the company loses sales, they lose sales. None of this is within my control and so I certainly cannot threaten anything.

Violynne wrote: »

If you, or anyone else, thinks this is an active discussion, well, I suppose I'm just too damn old for what constitutes a conversation this day.

Hey I’m not a young man either, but I’m pretty sure what you’ve done here does not constitute a conversation, but a volatile attack with mockery.

Violynne wrote: »

Discussing a concern over the changes: check
Making idle threats on leaving: nope
Making false and unsupported allegations that other players will leave: absolutely not
Comparing ESO to any other game: nope

Again, I’m not even sure what this means or what you’re trying to say. I just see contradiction and statements that do not relate to my original post.

Violynne wrote: »

I'll edit my post to remove Gina's name.

…but repeatedly continue to mention her name anyway.

You’ve clearly stated your intention is to make a mockery. For this reason I think your posts should just be removed from the discussion as you are completely derailing it for no good reason than your own spiteful and ill-mannered personality. It’s fine if the mods remove mine along with it.

Your troll and bait is full of nonsensical contradiction. If you want to disagree with me that’s fine, that would not have been a problem. You could have disagreed with me in a constructive manner, stating why (clearly) and quoting me on something. I may of even replied back in a constructive manner. But coming in here to troll and attack, derailing the conversation with nonsensical contradiction and hate has only served to make you look foolish.

Instead of skimming the post and making incorrect assumptions, perhaps you should have read further than the first line. On the second line I clearly stated: “To make it clear from the get go, this is not an attack thread and I don’t want it to turn into one”

You have clearly stated your ugly intention. So I don't think there is any room for conversation with you, certainly not intelligent conversation.