Morrowind In-Depth: The Death of StamDK (PvE)

Ch4mpTW

ZOS, I really don't think you know what you're doing with these Morrowind DK fixes. I really don't think you have the slightest clue what it is that you're doing. I'll explain.

Let's look at my StamDK first and foremost. This is a DK that's setup for VMA for the most part, but could be brought into dungeons and trials. As I've brought this exact setup into trials, and done beautifully with it. Although, it wouldn't be considered best-in-slot for the most part. I don't have Twice-Fanged Snake body pieces in divines, and I'm lacking the daggers and axe in sharpened. So I use Maelstrom DW in sharpened. Gold quality. My bow is gold quality as well, and sharpened. Also, the sets in utilizing are: 5x NMG, 5x Vicious, 2x Maelstrom DW, and 1x Maelstrom Bow. If I were utilizing my Spriggan set (which is on my StamSorc now), the numbers would be a tad bit different. But, still around the same ball park (to a degree). The difference would be that I'd be wearing 7pcs. medium, rather than 5 medium/1 light/1 heavy. Plus, my penetration would be higher. But that's besides the point for now. Also, my jewelry quality is gold by the way as well, to match my gold weapons (as per usual). This is because I leave my body pieces purple quality. But anyway, below is the numbers I'm working with.




Now then, you're talking literally gutting my regeneration and cost reduction, while increasing the cost of my skills as a whole. Plus, increasing the cost of a very important skill on my bow bar (Volley) by 30%. Lmao. You also increased the cost of Twin Slashes by 60%. All the while disregarding the fact that about 80% of my sustain comes from the ability to kill things and get stamina back from Vicious Serpent, while 10% comes from potions, and the other 10% from utilizing ultimates and the effect of the Battle Roar passive (ultimate restores 28 Health, 17 magicka, and 58 stamina for each point of the ultimate's cost). I'm also a Redguard (which gets nerfed severely), making things even more rough on me. And did I mention you nerfed medium armor?

WTF is the point of me using stamina now? Let alone a StamDK. Serously. Why even bother, when I can just run my StamSorc and out-damage my DK. AND! Have better sustain? Did you think at all about this? And by the way, those screen shots were taken with only a blue food buff being active (specifically CP150/CP160 max health and max stamina). How in the world am I supposed to sustain in a place like VMA or VMoL, when that type of crap has happened? Got any charts you can post-up @ZOS_RichLambert for me? Got any particular dev comments you'd like to make, about how you did this in order to make something look cooler @Wrobel for us? Or n'ah?

OH! I almost forgot. My resource pools? Like stamina (which I'm stacked in for the most part), is boned. Completely screwed. Because of the silly changes you made regarding how _____ will be a buff, if below _____. But a nerf if above _____. Lol. C'mon now. You guys literally killed StamDK. Not as bad as you killed Templars as a whole. But, still dead. Only difference is that you didn't overkill us.

And as a link into Templars, you got rid of their repentance giving the group stamina back. So not even they can help for the most part in me sustaining. And please don't mention shards. Shards are a joke once Morrowind goes live. They're a joke as is currently, but even more of a joke then.

Torbschka

Arent u the same guy started a thread about crying unlimited sustain, showing even a Video of your gameplay in pvp and get exppsed cuz u played super bad and did everything wrong?

Turelus

Torbschka wrote: »

Arent u the same guy started a thread about crying unlimited sustain, showing even a Video of your gameplay in pvp and get exppsed cuz u played super bad and did everything wrong?

Maybe he leant from that thread and evolved with a willingness to change opinions and beliefs, that's a good quality not one we should suppress in people.

Also nice write up Ch4mp. These are the kind of threads I wish we could see more of with ZOS looking at them and getting an idea where people are coming from. You got an Awesome from me.

AhPook_Is_Here

After morrowind drops, someone is going to make a video on how to restore resources with heavy attacks.

Daemons_Bane

Giving an awesome since this post is actually nice and detailed, so there's stuff to work with

Ch4mpTW

Torbschka wrote: »

Arent u the same guy started a thread about crying unlimited sustain, showing even a Video of your gameplay in pvp and get exppsed cuz u played super bad and did everything wrong?

Couple of things:
- Off-topic
- Baiting
- Complaint was with unlimited sustain in PvP
- Complaint was targeted at StamSorcs, not StamDK's
- I didn't know that Dark Deal could be interrupted
- In the video you are referring to, I was utilizing my StamDK which had an entirely different build
- I admit that I'm not as knowledgeable with StamDK in PvP, as I am with StamDK in PvE
- I'm not the greatest of PvP players to begin with

If you disagree with me, that's fine. If you have an issue with my claims? That's fine. But, stay on the topic at hand. And explain why you disagree with my claims using the topic at hand. Don't try to derail my thread, and fish for upvotes targeting the OP regarding things not about the current thread. You're free to bring all other off-topic stuff up to me in my inbox, and I'd be more than happy to deal with you there.

Torbschka

Turelus wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Arent u the same guy started a thread about crying unlimited sustain, showing even a Video of your gameplay in pvp and get exppsed cuz u played super bad and did everything wrong?

Maybe he leant from that thread and evolved with a willingness to change opinions and beliefs, that's a good quality not one we should suppress in people.

Also nice write up Ch4mp. These are the kind of threads I wish we could see more of with ZOS looking at them and getting an idea where people are coming from. You got an Awesome from me.

Not saying he isnt, its just, without "super seriousness", fun to see him make a thread about " infinite ressources" in pvp and after they nerfed that, starting a thread about how *** nerfing the sustain was.

Its just funny lol.

Nevertheless, I agree with some of op, but actually im quite happy with the patch notes and pretty sure, all 3 nerfs (BR, major mending and helping hands) wont make it on live.

Takes-No-Prisoner

Ever fought in Scourge campaign OP?

Ch4mpTW

Torbschka wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Arent u the same guy started a thread about crying unlimited sustain, showing even a Video of your gameplay in pvp and get exppsed cuz u played super bad and did everything wrong?

Maybe he leant from that thread and evolved with a willingness to change opinions and beliefs, that's a good quality not one we should suppress in people.

Also nice write up Ch4mp. These are the kind of threads I wish we could see more of with ZOS looking at them and getting an idea where people are coming from. You got an Awesome from me.

Not saying he isnt, its just, without "super seriousness", fun to see him make a thread about " infinite ressources" in pvp and after they nerfed that, starting a thread about how *** nerfing the sustain was.

Its just funny lol.

Nevertheless, I agree with some of op, but actually im quite happy with the patch notes and pretty sure, all 3 nerfs (BR, major mending and helping hands) wont make it on live.

@Torbschka Did you or did you not see the (PvE) indication at the end of the title...? While I did do edits to fix spelling and grammar mistakes, I never once touched the title. So why would you go and mention something from an entirely different thread involving PVP in something focusing on the area of PvE? Unless of course you're baiting, and fishing for upvotes. While also trying to derail my thread intentionally. Thus trolling. Had your fun? Because, I genuinely don't see anything constructive that you've posted here.

Torbschka

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Arent u the same guy started a thread about crying unlimited sustain, showing even a Video of your gameplay in pvp and get exppsed cuz u played super bad and did everything wrong?

Maybe he leant from that thread and evolved with a willingness to change opinions and beliefs, that's a good quality not one we should suppress in people.

Also nice write up Ch4mp. These are the kind of threads I wish we could see more of with ZOS looking at them and getting an idea where people are coming from. You got an Awesome from me.

Not saying he isnt, its just, without "super seriousness", fun to see him make a thread about " infinite ressources" in pvp and after they nerfed that, starting a thread about how *** nerfing the sustain was.

Its just funny lol.

Nevertheless, I agree with some of op, but actually im quite happy with the patch notes and pretty sure, all 3 nerfs (BR, major mending and helping hands) wont make it on live.

@Torbschka Did you or did you not see the (PvE) indication at the end of the title...? While I did do edits to fix spelling and grammar mistakes, I never once touched the title. So why would you go and mention something from an entirely different thread involving PVP in something focusing on the area of PvE? Unless of course you're baiting, and fishing for upvotes. While also trying to derail my thread intentionally. Thus trolling. Had your fun? Because, I genuinely don't see anything constructive that you've posted here.

Holy *** come down, as I said: "without being serious" - its still fun for me, doesnt matter pve or pvp (IMO even pve was a joke with that sustain).

Hell u wasnt even wrong , sustain is way too high in pvp now, its just how u said it / showed the Video.

So, as I said, even if I like the patch notes I feel the pain of the DKs (especially stam). Its too much, they should rethink one of those changes for DKs, set bastion to 15% CP max and make shields doesnt be affected by major protection (or at least pirate skeleton).

At least u didnt cried like a baby like the other 1000 threads popping up every second.

Balamoor

Couple points @Ch4mpTW ....

First off it's a good write up an you make some valid points, what I don't necessarily agree with is that your Sprig set would be in the same ballpark, I could be wrong though.

I'm wondering with changes this drastic and we had this conversation in game last night that perhaps they are doing something with either food a group buff or sets to balance this out and we are only seeing part of the change? I get nothing was mentioned in the PTS notes, but that patch hasn't gone live yet.

Argawarga

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Don't try to derail my thread, and fish for upvotes targeting the OP regarding things not about the current thread. You're free to bring all other off-topic stuff up to me in my inbox, and I'd be more than happy to deal with you there.

He can only derail your thread as long as you're willing to respond to him. He's a troll.

This was a solid post. I'd love to see more thoughtful and in-depth analyses like this that clearly explain how players expect 3.0 to affect them and their favourite class. This is the type of foundation that constructive debates are built on.

MaxwellC

@Torbschka
Lol don't count on it ZOS will say "Oh you don't think these changes will go live for DKs? Hold my beer".

I made a thread about this too on the PTS forums and it's completely terrible, no one can justify nerf to the DK sustain which is already pathetic with high costing skills. Some on the thread attempted to justify sustain nerfs as it's being across the board but clearly look at dark deal which still has no real penalty to it lol.

These changes to all classes should not have happened since they got rid of the CP sustain and removed around what 20% for stamina sustain lol but they nerf'd sustain to all armor classes as a whole even a race sustain.

I love how they practically removed major mending for me now, If I get a DoT on me well too bad since my shield is a light attack away from being broken there goes major mending. ZOS should stop trying to balance this game around the CP system and just get rid of it, since they're obviously struggling in that department.

Nelson_Rebel

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

ZOS, I really don't think you know what you're doing with these Morrowind DK fixes. I really don't think you have the slightest clue what it is that you're doing. I'll explain.

Let's look at my StamDK first and foremost. This is a DK that's setup for VMA for the most part, but could be brought into dungeons and trials. As I've brought this exact setup into trials, and done beautifully with it. Although, it wouldn't be considered best-in-slot for the most part. I don't have Twice-Fanged Snake body pieces in divines, and I'm lacking the daggers and axe in sharpened. So I use Maelstrom DW in sharpened. Gold quality. My bow is gold quality as well, and sharpened. Also, the sets in utilizing are: 5x NMG, 5x Vicious, 2x Maelstrom DW, and 1x Maelstrom Bow. If I were utilizing my Spriggan set (which is on my StamSorc now), the numbers would be a tad bit different. But, still around the same ball park (to a degree). The difference would be that I'd be wearing 7pcs. medium, rather than 5 medium/1 light/1 heavy. Plus, my penetration would be higher. But that's besides the point for now. Also, my jewelry quality is gold by the way as well, to match my gold weapons (as per usual). This is because I leave my body pieces purple quality. But anyway, below is the numbers I'm working with.




Now then, you're talking literally gutting my regeneration and cost reduction, while increasing the cost of my skills as a whole. Plus, increasing the cost of a very important skill on my bow bar (Volley) by 30%. Lmao. You also increased the cost of Twin Slashes by 60%. All the while disregarding the fact that about 80% of my sustain comes from the ability to kill things and get stamina back from Vicious Serpent, while 10% comes from potions, and the other 10% from utilizing ultimates and the effect of the Battle Roar passive (ultimate restores 28 Health, 17 magicka, and 58 stamina for each point of the ultimate's cost). I'm also a Redguard (which gets nerfed severely), making things even more rough on me. And did I mention you nerfed medium armor?

WTF is the point of me using stamina now? Let alone a StamDK. Serously. Why even bother, when I can just run my StamSorc and out-damage my DK. AND! Have better sustain? Did you think at all about this? And by the way, those screen shots were taken with only a blue food buff being active (specifically CP150/CP160 max health and max stamina). How in the world am I supposed to sustain in a place like VMA or VMoL, when that type of crap has happened? Got any charts you can post-up @ZOS_RichLambert for me? Got any particular dev comments you'd like to make, about how you did this in order to make something look cooler @Wrobel for us? Or n'ah?

OH! I almost forgot. My resource pools? Like stamina (which I'm stacked in for the most part), is boned. Completely screwed. Because of the silly changes you made regarding how _____ will be a buff, if below _____. But a nerf if above _____. Lol. C'mon now. You guys literally killed StamDK. Not as bad as you killed Templars as a whole. But, still dead. Only difference is that you didn't overkill us.

And as a link into Templars, you got rid of their repentance giving the group stamina back. So not even they can help for the most part in me sustaining. And please don't mention shards. Shards are a joke once Morrowind goes live. They're a joke as is currently, but even more of a joke then.

Agreed man, good to see you're still active on the forums, we need to duel again in auridon again xD


But on topic, The nerfs to stamina after stamina already isn't accepted into trials is bad. The Universal nerf to Magic and Stamina effectively kills stamina ever getting into trials due to mechanics limitations now 100% favoring ranged dps

I main Mag DK so even though I'm magic, I'm now in the same boat as you

Ch4mpTW

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

ZOS, I really don't think you know what you're doing with these Morrowind DK fixes. I really don't think you have the slightest clue what it is that you're doing. I'll explain.

Let's look at my StamDK first and foremost. This is a DK that's setup for VMA for the most part, but could be brought into dungeons and trials. As I've brought this exact setup into trials, and done beautifully with it. Although, it wouldn't be considered best-in-slot for the most part. I don't have Twice-Fanged Snake body pieces in divines, and I'm lacking the daggers and axe in sharpened. So I use Maelstrom DW in sharpened. Gold quality. My bow is gold quality as well, and sharpened. Also, the sets in utilizing are: 5x NMG, 5x Vicious, 2x Maelstrom DW, and 1x Maelstrom Bow. If I were utilizing my Spriggan set (which is on my StamSorc now), the numbers would be a tad bit different. But, still around the same ball park (to a degree). The difference would be that I'd be wearing 7pcs. medium, rather than 5 medium/1 light/1 heavy. Plus, my penetration would be higher. But that's besides the point for now. Also, my jewelry quality is gold by the way as well, to match my gold weapons (as per usual). This is because I leave my body pieces purple quality. But anyway, below is the numbers I'm working with.




Now then, you're talking literally gutting my regeneration and cost reduction, while increasing the cost of my skills as a whole. Plus, increasing the cost of a very important skill on my bow bar (Volley) by 30%. Lmao. You also increased the cost of Twin Slashes by 60%. All the while disregarding the fact that about 80% of my sustain comes from the ability to kill things and get stamina back from Vicious Serpent, while 10% comes from potions, and the other 10% from utilizing ultimates and the effect of the Battle Roar passive (ultimate restores 28 Health, 17 magicka, and 58 stamina for each point of the ultimate's cost). I'm also a Redguard (which gets nerfed severely), making things even more rough on me. And did I mention you nerfed medium armor?

WTF is the point of me using stamina now? Let alone a StamDK. Serously. Why even bother, when I can just run my StamSorc and out-damage my DK. AND! Have better sustain? Did you think at all about this? And by the way, those screen shots were taken with only a blue food buff being active (specifically CP150/CP160 max health and max stamina). How in the world am I supposed to sustain in a place like VMA or VMoL, when that type of crap has happened? Got any charts you can post-up @ZOS_RichLambert for me? Got any particular dev comments you'd like to make, about how you did this in order to make something look cooler @Wrobel for us? Or n'ah?

OH! I almost forgot. My resource pools? Like stamina (which I'm stacked in for the most part), is boned. Completely screwed. Because of the silly changes you made regarding how _____ will be a buff, if below _____. But a nerf if above _____. Lol. C'mon now. You guys literally killed StamDK. Not as bad as you killed Templars as a whole. But, still dead. Only difference is that you didn't overkill us.

And as a link into Templars, you got rid of their repentance giving the group stamina back. So not even they can help for the most part in me sustaining. And please don't mention shards. Shards are a joke once Morrowind goes live. They're a joke as is currently, but even more of a joke then.

Agreed man, good to see you're still active on the forums, we need to duel again in auridon again xD


But on topic, The nerfs to stamina after stamina already isn't accepted into trials is bad. The Universal nerf to Magic and Stamina effectively kills stamina ever getting into trials due to mechanics limitations now 100% favoring ranged dps

I main Mag DK so even though I'm magic, I'm now in the same boat as you

I'd definitely love to duel you again, and yeah. Things are very much so doom and gloom for DK's. Luckily we weren't overkilled like Templars, but still killed off regardless. Lol. Especially StamDK's. I don't think @Wrobel and his group did as much as math as they were supposed to when it came to 'balancing', and factored in as many things as they were supposed to. Or maybe it's that they flat out don't even care. I personally always questioned his balance choices, but as of lately? It's beyond a joke. Literally the player base could make better changes than the developers in some regards involving balance, and that in and of itself is a problem.

Ch4mpTW

I just realized something, after looking back at this thread. I forgot to mention that StamDK's are also at a loss due to numerous stamina-based bugs which haven't been addressed. For example, the bug regarding usage of the Maelstrom's Bow. Or for example, the bug involving bashes to not register as interrupts (happens a lot in Maelstrom). Or something as old as the sprint bug, causing you to constantly drain stamina with no skills being registering. When you factor all of those things in with what I listed above, you pretty much have a recipe for disaster. Any comments on this, ZOS? @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel @ZOS_Finn

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

OutLaw_Nynx

Oh champ.... take a vacation dude

AhPook_Is_Here

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

After morrowind drops, someone is going to make a video on how to restore resources with heavy attacks.

Heavy attack build with Marksman/Seducer set.

Calling it now.

molten armaments on STA with M-brutality from pot, dw, or 2h. and for the 2nd set elegant or bsw for magicka, maybe Sargent's for STA. People are def going to want to get some burst from Heavy attacks in arenas.

Ch4mpTW

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

After morrowind drops, someone is going to make a video on how to restore resources with heavy attacks.

Heavy attack build with Marksman/Seducer set.

Calling it now.

molten armaments on STA with M-brutality from pot, dw, or 2h. and for the 2nd set elegant or bsw for magicka, maybe Sargent's for STA. People are def going to want to get some burst from Heavy attacks in arenas.

I'm actually going to be doing a write-up like this for magicka DK sometime either tonight, or tomorrow. This is because I'm already collecting information, and compiling it for a breakdown of how these approaching changes will effect MagPlars. You definitely raised some valid options, and things to consider.

AhPook_Is_Here

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

After morrowind drops, someone is going to make a video on how to restore resources with heavy attacks.

Heavy attack build with Marksman/Seducer set.

Calling it now.

molten armaments on STA with M-brutality from pot, dw, or 2h. and for the 2nd set elegant or bsw for magicka, maybe Sargent's for STA. People are def going to want to get some burst from Heavy attacks in arenas.

I'm actually going to be doing a write-up like this for magicka DK sometime either tonight, or tomorrow. This is because I'm already collecting information, and compiling it for a breakdown of how these approaching changes will effect MagPlars. You definitely raised some valid options, and things to consider.

An empowered 2h attack with molten's 40% + whatever you have in heavy weapon's CP %, and sargent's ~1600wp isn't going to be a pillow fight