Morrowind: CP changes, Recovery/Cost Nerfs, the PvP Menace, and the Plight of PvE

WuffyCerulei

Please note that is subjective, and my opinions will not reflect everyone else's.

Morrowind has a crap ton of changes, and come of these changes are hitting sustain to many in the PvE community. Not only have Champion have Cost Reduction removed and recovery nerfed, but both light and medium armor passives have been nerfed. Why? The dev in Zenimax insist that sustain is too good in ESO, but this may be more so in PvP specifically. There have been plenty of threads on the forums talking about unkillable players, people hitting like trucks, resources on others seemingly unending, and more. These issues don't seem to occur in PvE though, as sustain and damage are pretty balanced in groups. You have the tank take the damage, healer make sure yall ain't dead and help with resources, and the DPS do what they're good at, which is kill things. No one person in PvE is too OP or never dies, because it doesn't call for that. PvP, however, is where all the issues regarding unkillable, hard-hitting, eternally-healed people are.
Now, I understand that the devs at Zenimax have good intentions. They want to make the game more fair to the average player, but like in the past, nerfing everyone and everything doesn't solve the issue. From what I've seen, the only people in PvE who have relatively high regen are the healers, but this is expected. They're expected to heal and help with other people's resources. This would be difficult with 800 recovery compared to 1500 or 2000 recovery. Tanks seem to have higher regen too, but often it's less than the healers. DPS usually have 700-800 recovery on average for their main resource. Why? For the reason I stated before. They depend on healers to help with em. However, if everyone in PvE is has their regen and costs nerfed like no tomorrow, the entire group struggles. Even top tier PvEers are having serious issues with keeping sustain with all these nerfs. And these nerfs seem to be much more targeted toward the undying players in PvP.
Solution to all these issues? As the devs have experimented with before, turn off Champion Points in PvP. Instead of relying heavily on their CP to keep their resources, the unkillable people will be much easier to kill. And in turn, they will have to use light or medium armor to help with resources. Though, this means some CP branches will have to be altered, like the Crit resistance branch and the siphoner branch in Morrowind. NPCs generally have a set amount of moves they do, and they usually do them in the same order or to whatever mechanics there are. Light/heavy attacks that reduce resource recovery would be absolutely useless PvE-wise.
Another option is add a recovery nerf to Battle Spirit, where recovery is lowered by 30% in PvP areas.

PvP certainly needs the undying players to actually be killable, and PvE seriously needs to NOT suffer for what people do in PvP.

Fvh09NL

This is not only a pvp issue, only stacking damage in pve without having to keep in mind anything sustain-related is the problem on the pve side of the coin. Both sides are bad, both bare blame, but I just hope they will adjust some bosses as they have enrage(-like) mechanics, which will become a lot harder since dps will drop in this patch due to sustain being so low.

Midori_Oku

"Fvh09NL wrote: »

I just hope they will adjust some bosses as they have enrage(-like) mechanics, which will become a lot harder since dps will drop in this patch due to sustain being so low.

That's what I'm worried about. I have several groups I play with, and two of the three can do any content currently in the game no problem, but the other struggles. The group that struggles can barely kill vet Skoria with all five platforms if I'm not there, and have a hard time to do it on hard mode if I am.

They already have a massive gap between the number of players who completing vet trials often and those who don't. Especially when you look at the number of people actively completing vet maw. I'm sure the new trial on vet will be just as difficult if not more difficult than vmaw anyway. The number of people who will not be able to complete that content will grow, and the number of who can may possibly shrink.

With how difficult they make things it basically encourages people to take advantage of exploits. The vmaw exploit is a prime example. Content isn't something that should be so difficult only a small percentage of the community can complete it. I'm all for difficult things and possible challenge modes, but people should be able to complete things with enough effort and not have to be absolute top tier players to do so. It's sad when you see people struggle to even finish maw on normal, and then the gap between vet a normal is just insane.

I believe the gap between vet and normal should be closed on all activities in the game, especially things like maelstrom. Anyway, sorry for got off topic a little bit. :P

Nelson_Rebel

Midori_Oku wrote: »

"Fvh09NL wrote: »

I just hope they will adjust some bosses as they have enrage(-like) mechanics, which will become a lot harder since dps will drop in this patch due to sustain being so low.

That's what I'm worried about. I have several groups I play with, and two of the three can do any content currently in the game no problem, but the other struggles. The group that struggles can barely kill vet Skoria with all five platforms if I'm not there, and have a hard time to do it on hard mode if I am.

They already have a massive gap between the number of players who completing vet trials often and those who don't. Especially when you look at the number of people actively completing vet maw. I'm sure the new trial on vet will be just as difficult if not more difficult than vmaw anyway. The number of people who will not be able to complete that content will grow, and the number of who can may possibly shrink.

With how difficult they make things it basically encourages people to take advantage of exploits. The vmaw exploit is a prime example. Content isn't something that should be so difficult only a small percentage of the community can complete it. I'm all for difficult things and possible challenge modes, but people should be able to complete things with enough effort and not have to be absolute top tier players to do so. It's sad when you see people struggle to even finish maw on normal, and then the gap between vet a normal is just insane.

I believe the gap between vet and normal should be closed on all activities in the game, especially things like maelstrom. Anyway, sorry for got off topic a little bit. :P

Well said!

SodanTok

If you think this huge patch full of sustain nerfs all over the place is only because of PvP you already wasted several minutes of your life creating this thread.

FlyLionel

Looking forward to hircine veneer in every group now.

Jamini

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Not only have Champion have Cost Reduction removed and recovery nerfed, but both light and medium armor passives have been nerfed. Why?

The Devs did it because PvE is too easy, and they want PvE to need to do something for sustain.

The dev in Zenimax insist that sustain is too good in ESO, but this may be more so in PvP

You are wrong.

specifically. There have been plenty of threads on the forums talking about unkillable players, people hitting like trucks, resources on others seemingly unending, and more. These issues don't seem to occur in PvE though, as sustain and damage are pretty balanced in groups. You have the tank take the damage, healer make sure yall ain't dead and help with resources, and the DPS do what they're good at, which is kill things.

A good tank is pretty much unkillable, outside of one-hit kills, in PvE. A good healer can make a whole group mostly unkillable. Damage Dealers are able to burn through many bosses while skipping mechanics due to focusing 100% on damage.

No one person in PvE is too OP or never dies, because it doesn't call for that. PvP, however, is where all the issues regarding unkillable, hard-hitting, eternally-healed people are.
Now, I understand that the devs at Zenimax have good intentions. They want to make the game more fair to the average player, but like in the past, nerfing everyone and everything doesn't solve the issue. From what I've seen, the only people in PvE who have relatively high regen are the healers, but this is expected. They're expected to heal and help with other people's resources. This would be difficult with 800 recovery compared to 1500 or 2000 recovery. Tanks seem to have higher regen too, but often it's less than the healers. DPS usually have 700-800 recovery on average for their main resource. Why? For the reason I stated before. They depend on healers to help with em. However, if everyone in PvE is has their regen and costs nerfed like no tomorrow, the entire group struggles. Even top tier PvEers are having serious issues with keeping sustain with all these nerfs. And these nerfs seem to be much more targeted toward the undying players in PvP.

Nope. These nerfs are aimed squarely at the people who refuse to slot in any sustain on their Damage Dealers.

Solution to all these issues? As the devs have experimented with before, turn off Champion Points in PvP. Instead of relying heavily on their CP to keep their resources, the unkillable people will be much easier to kill. And in turn, they will have to use light or medium armor to help with resources. Though, this means some CP branches will have to be altered, like the Crit resistance branch and the siphoner branch in Morrowind. NPCs generally have a set amount of moves they do, and they usually do them in the same order or to whatever mechanics there are. Light/heavy attacks that reduce resource recovery would be absolutely useless PvE-wise.
Another option is add a recovery nerf to Battle Spirit, where recovery is lowered by 30% in PvP areas.

Except your premise is false. This nerf was explicitly aimed at PvE. Wroble even stated so himself, suggesting that PvE players try changing their glyphs or food to compensate for the lost sustain.

PvP certainly needs the undying players to actually be killable, and PvE seriously needs to NOT suffer for what people do in PvP.

Stop using PvP as a scapegoat for changes you dislike. Accept that perhaps, maybe, unlimited sustain in PvE without speccing into it is exactly what the developers intend. Adapt. Change. Or die off.

Galendior

Jamini wrote: »

The Devs did it because PvE is too easy, and they want PvE to need to do something for sustain.

I don't know if you are a troll or just playing in a perfect raidgroup.

Most people are struggling with the current content, most aren't even touching vet trials. Most didn't complete veteran maelstrom arena or dragonstar arena either.
So how is PvE too easy? Do you think 90%+ of the player should pay for the game so a few percent can actually enjoy the content?

"Unlimited sustain only applies to those perfect environment raidgroups. Nerfing this might force them to adapt a bit, but it will kill any group that isn't killing bosses in their sleep.

Also if we are forced to use a build that goes a lot in sustain, how are you supposed to survive dps checks? Currently, we have just enough dmg to survive the split-phase at the 3rd boss in vet aetherian archive. Even if the sustain nerfes come we still need full dmg builds just to survive that.
So i can't afford to lose my max dmg potential even if i wanted to. The only thing ZOE does is forcing me to heavy attack the boss 50% of the time so i have enough burst to kill adds while spouting *** about fast paced combat in their patchnotes.

It is *** of ZOE to think that balancing content around top raidgroups will make this game enjoyable for most players.

timidobserver

Jamini wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Not only have Champion have Cost Reduction removed and recovery nerfed, but both light and medium armor passives have been nerfed. Why?

The Devs did it because PvE is too easy, and they want PvE to need to do something for sustain.

The dev in Zenimax insist that sustain is too good in ESO, but this may be more so in PvP

You are wrong.

specifically. There have been plenty of threads on the forums talking about unkillable players, people hitting like trucks, resources on others seemingly unending, and more. These issues don't seem to occur in PvE though, as sustain and damage are pretty balanced in groups. You have the tank take the damage, healer make sure yall ain't dead and help with resources, and the DPS do what they're good at, which is kill things.

A good tank is pretty much unkillable, outside of one-hit kills, in PvE. A good healer can make a whole group mostly unkillable. Damage Dealers are able to burn through many bosses while skipping mechanics due to focusing 100% on damage.

No one person in PvE is too OP or never dies, because it doesn't call for that. PvP, however, is where all the issues regarding unkillable, hard-hitting, eternally-healed people are.
Now, I understand that the devs at Zenimax have good intentions. They want to make the game more fair to the average player, but like in the past, nerfing everyone and everything doesn't solve the issue. From what I've seen, the only people in PvE who have relatively high regen are the healers, but this is expected. They're expected to heal and help with other people's resources. This would be difficult with 800 recovery compared to 1500 or 2000 recovery. Tanks seem to have higher regen too, but often it's less than the healers. DPS usually have 700-800 recovery on average for their main resource. Why? For the reason I stated before. They depend on healers to help with em. However, if everyone in PvE is has their regen and costs nerfed like no tomorrow, the entire group struggles. Even top tier PvEers are having serious issues with keeping sustain with all these nerfs. And these nerfs seem to be much more targeted toward the undying players in PvP.

Nope. These nerfs are aimed squarely at the people who refuse to slot in any sustain on their Damage Dealers.

Solution to all these issues? As the devs have experimented with before, turn off Champion Points in PvP. Instead of relying heavily on their CP to keep their resources, the unkillable people will be much easier to kill. And in turn, they will have to use light or medium armor to help with resources. Though, this means some CP branches will have to be altered, like the Crit resistance branch and the siphoner branch in Morrowind. NPCs generally have a set amount of moves they do, and they usually do them in the same order or to whatever mechanics there are. Light/heavy attacks that reduce resource recovery would be absolutely useless PvE-wise.
Another option is add a recovery nerf to Battle Spirit, where recovery is lowered by 30% in PvP areas.

Except your premise is false. This nerf was explicitly aimed at PvE. Wroble even stated so himself, suggesting that PvE players try changing their glyphs or food to compensate for the lost sustain.

PvP certainly needs the undying players to actually be killable, and PvE seriously needs to NOT suffer for what people do in PvP.

Stop using PvP as a scapegoat for changes you dislike. Accept that perhaps, maybe, unlimited sustain in PvE without speccing into it is exactly what the developers intend. Adapt. Change. Or die off.

Too easy? Most PvE players can't even complete the hardest content in the game.

It's a PvP issue. 90% of DKs and Templar in Cyrodiil have incredible sustain and take forever to kill. On the other hand, very few PvE players are putting up crazy numbers or performance. Forget numbers, less than 1% of them can even complete the current most difficult content in the game (vMoL HM.) The percentage completing AA HM or HRC HM is probably pretty low as well.

Overperforming in PvP is a widespread issue. Even bad players that put on blue quality reactive + any sustain set with white vendor purchased glyphs will take ages to kill. Overperforming in PvE is limited to a small percentage of players.

Biro123

inb4 the usual 'Don't break PVE cos PVP' assumptions..... damn, too late..

NightbladeMechanics

@Midori_Oku an insightful post on the gap between players, thank you. But please keep in mind that those players completing content easily want a challenge too..

You mentioned Skoria as a benchmark challenge for one of your groups. Well, I can solo that boss fight on veteran routinely. The fight lasts beyond when all platforms are destroyed, but I continue to fight and survive on the little rocks protruding from the lava through his execute phase. The boss and lava both have predictable cc mechanics which I avoid, and a high self-healing build with a ton of CP can deal about 30k self-buffed dps while maintaining its own defense once those mechanics are learned.

I do not like CP in general.

In the past, I've been a proponent of making veteran mode a little easier and then introducing a third difficulty mode that's even harder. I believe that would put veteran completes in range of more people but provide a new difficulty level to keep top tier players engaged. A wide spread in difficulty levels does leave pockets of players who find one too easy but the next unwinnable, after all.

NightbladeMechanics

Fvh09NL wrote: »

This is not only a pvp issue, only stacking damage in pve without having to keep in mind anything sustain-related is the problem on the pve side of the coin. Both sides are bad, both bare blame, but I just hope they will adjust some bosses as they have enrage(-like) mechanics, which will become a lot harder since dps will drop in this patch due to sustain being so low.

As for the OP, this post captures my opinion closely. CP makes PvE as ridiculously easy and forgiving as PvP and needs to be brought down a notch.

I do like enrages, though, as long as ensuing one shot mechanics are not outright unavoidable. I want a threat and a challenge, not a brick wall requiring I come back with a dedicated tank to sit behind.....

Fvh09NL

I like enrage mechanics as well, I just hope they will be adjusted to the new patch accordingly
Not gonna be fun dying due to those mechanics if they are based on higher dps.

Pallio

Can't really just blame pvp this time, sure they asked for regen and templar nerfs, ZO$ used that as an excuse to turn the game into a full on P2W $$ grab.

Galendior

@NightbladeMechanics

Those groups unfortunately won't get any challenge. There will always be those groups that are all exceptional players, theorycrafting to minmax everything (equip, rotation, even the composition of the raid according to current meta...) and learning every encounter down to the last second. For obvious reasons you can't balance the game around those.

Also i doubt they are interested in challenges, they just like to brag how good they are.
If they would really want a challenge they could always play the content with random people that didn't finish it yet (e.g. me^^). This would make the content challenging again, but i wonder why i don't see any of those random veteran trials?

seedubsrun

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@Midori_Oku an insightful post on the gap between players, thank you. But please keep in mind that those players completing content easily want a challenge too..

You mentioned Skoria as a benchmark challenge for one of your groups. Well, I can solo that boss fight on veteran routinely. The fight lasts beyond when all platforms are destroyed, but I continue to fight and survive on the little rocks protruding from the lava through his execute phase. The boss and lava both have predictable cc mechanics which I avoid, and a high self-healing build with a ton of CP can deal about 30k self-buffed dps while maintaining its own defense once those mechanics are learned.

I do not like CP in general.

In the past, I've been a proponent of making veteran mode a little easier and then introducing a third difficulty mode that's even harder. I believe that would put veteran completes in range of more people but provide a new difficulty level to keep top tier players engaged. A wide spread in difficulty levels does leave pockets of players who find one too easy but the next unwinnable, after all.

I would really support this idea. Separate PvP and PvE better (or at all) so "balancing" one doesn't kill the other and create a third difficulty for PvE top tier players. Give legendary or double epic drops for rewards in dungeons and double that for trials (or have a more favorable rng table. No prosperous/training drops). Then tweak each difficulty and game mode independently. An insane mode difficulty could have all these nerfs integrated and no one would complain because you're not top tier if you can't manage it. I'd currently fall into the middle there and would have something to push myself to get to without having to worry that the next update will ruin the build or class I favor.

Midori_Oku

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@Midori_Oku an insightful post on the gap between players, thank you. But please keep in mind that those players completing content easily want a challenge too..

That's why I brought up challenge modes, or something like a third difficulty where the content is harder but rewards pretty much stay the same. (At least remove useless traits from the loot pool though) People such as Alcast or other top tier raiders don't really play the content for the gear anymore, only for leaderboards and for the challenge. Making content so difficult and keeping some players from needed gear such as some monster helms is just insane. The group that I play with that struggles is a group of older players (in their late 40's, early 50's) that play a lot, but are not able to pull the DPS/sustain needed for a lot of content. I just can't get them to comprehend/execute what is needed to improve, but I don't give up on working with them on it. They are a nice group that's fun to play with though.

NightbladeMechanics

Galendior wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics

Those groups unfortunately won't get any challenge. There will always be those groups that are all exceptional players, theorycrafting to minmax everything (equip, rotation, even the composition of the raid according to current meta...) and learning every encounter down to the last second. For obvious reasons you can't balance the game around those.

Also i doubt they are interested in challenges, they just like to brag how good they are.
If they would really want a challenge they could always play the content with random people that didn't finish it yet (e.g. me^^). This would make the content challenging again, but i wonder why i don't see any of those random veteran trials?

I agree 100% with your first paragraph, and disagree 100% with your second. The second is just cynical.

Top tier players play for the challenge. They don't do random groups often because they don't enjoy repetitive content. I know many groups and have been in several who have done dungeons naked, or weaponless, or solo just for fun, but you wouldn't know that because they are done in private. I know a few top tier players who still do queue into random dungeons from time to time, myself included when I need to farm something. But those activities get boring quickly when you've done all of the content hundreds of times over. One of NA/PC's top trials groups, who has vmol hm on farm, is currently attempting it with an all nightblade group...in a desperate attempt to find a challenge. They won't let me in, and I'm jelly. All nb vmol group sounds fun as hell.

I know there are people out there beating their egos and bragging, but trust me. If they have to claim alpha status, they aren't as top tier as they want you to believe, and they don't characterize the majority of top tier players.

Tinus_92

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Galendior wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics

Those groups unfortunately won't get any challenge. There will always be those groups that are all exceptional players, theorycrafting to minmax everything (equip, rotation, even the composition of the raid according to current meta...) and learning every encounter down to the last second. For obvious reasons you can't balance the game around those.

Also i doubt they are interested in challenges, they just like to brag how good they are.
If they would really want a challenge they could always play the content with random people that didn't finish it yet (e.g. me^^). This would make the content challenging again, but i wonder why i don't see any of those random veteran trials?

I agree 100% with your first paragraph, and disagree 100% with your second. The second is just cynical.

Top tier players play for the challenge. They don't do random groups often because they don't enjoy repetitive content. I know many groups and have been in several who have done dungeons naked, or weaponless, or solo just for fun, but you wouldn't know that because they are done in private. I know a few top tier players who still do queue into random dungeons from time to time, myself included when I need to farm something. But those activities get boring quickly when you've done all of the content hundreds of times over. One of NA/PC's top trials groups, who has vmol hm on farm, is currently attempting it with an all nightblade group...in a desperate attempt to find a challenge. They won't let me in, and I'm jelly. All nb vmol group sounds fun as hell.

I know there are people out there beating their egos and bragging, but trust me. If they have to claim alpha status, they aren't as top tier as they want you to believe, and they don't characterize the majority of top tier players.

Top tier guilds are actually very repetitive, doing the same trials all over and over again to get better scores and improvements. Most players who get a vmol HM clear with a new group have practised for weeks, if not months. Let alone getting hardmode to a farmable state, which are only a few guilds each server. Even non-hardmode is way too difficult to most players, although I must admit regular vmol skins aren't that rare anymore. After so many attempts of course you'll get better and get vmol HM to a farmable state. This, however, is after practising the same trial over a hundred times before. I'm into a simular group but up to today HM still isn't easy to pull off, and it'll become very, very difficult again after the pts goes live within its current state. If your resources run out, you'll die. If you don't get the damage however, especially considering the numberous adds, you'll die too.

In the next patch vmol (and ofc vmol hardmode) clears will get very rare again as it looks like now. That's completely because we have to give up either the damage or sustain, and both are really needed, especially for the non-top tier guilds who are still struggling completing the current veteran trials today. Then we haven't even started on the new trial yet.

NightbladeMechanics

Tinus_92 wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Galendior wrote: »

@NightbladeMechanics

Those groups unfortunately won't get any challenge. There will always be those groups that are all exceptional players, theorycrafting to minmax everything (equip, rotation, even the composition of the raid according to current meta...) and learning every encounter down to the last second. For obvious reasons you can't balance the game around those.

Also i doubt they are interested in challenges, they just like to brag how good they are.
If they would really want a challenge they could always play the content with random people that didn't finish it yet (e.g. me^^). This would make the content challenging again, but i wonder why i don't see any of those random veteran trials?

I agree 100% with your first paragraph, and disagree 100% with your second. The second is just cynical.

Top tier players play for the challenge. They don't do random groups often because they don't enjoy repetitive content. I know many groups and have been in several who have done dungeons naked, or weaponless, or solo just for fun, but you wouldn't know that because they are done in private. I know a few top tier players who still do queue into random dungeons from time to time, myself included when I need to farm something. But those activities get boring quickly when you've done all of the content hundreds of times over. One of NA/PC's top trials groups, who has vmol hm on farm, is currently attempting it with an all nightblade group...in a desperate attempt to find a challenge. They won't let me in, and I'm jelly. All nb vmol group sounds fun as hell.

I know there are people out there beating their egos and bragging, but trust me. If they have to claim alpha status, they aren't as top tier as they want you to believe, and they don't characterize the majority of top tier players.

You are ocntradicting yourself, because raiding guilds are doing repetetive content all over and over again to get better scores. More especially, going 2-3 times a week for multiple hours into the same trial. After so many attempts of course you'll get better and get vmol HM to a farmable state. This, however, is after practising the same trial over a hundred times before. I'm into a simular group but up to today HM still isn't easy to pull off, and it'll become very, very difficult again after the pts goes live within its current state. If your resources run out empty, you'll die. If you don't get the damage however, especially considering the numberous adds, you'll die too.

How often does your group run trials that aren't vmol or the weekly, just for fun?

Publius_Scipio

I respect your opinion on the matter. But PvEers keep pointing fingers at PvP for any "woes" that come there way. Not sure if you personally, but I believe many PvEers just want to have builds that can melt content as fast as possible, just because.

The world wasn't coming to an end when ZOS took crit hits away from proc sets. Builds are still plenty strong, but boy were PvEers rabid about that.

No one, even ZOS, knows how everything will shake out until the update actually goes live. That is the case for every single game and every single update.

Akimbro

Fvh09NL wrote: »

This is not only a pvp issue, only stacking damage in pve without having to keep in mind anything sustain-related is the problem on the pve side of the coin. Both sides are bad, both bare blame, but I just hope they will adjust some bosses as they have enrage(-like) mechanics, which will become a lot harder since dps will drop in this patch due to sustain being so low.

It's really not JUST stacking damage in PVE...

In raids your consideration for resource sustain is through group synergy (worm, minor mag steal, orbs, etc.). It's not just 8 dps'ers running around guns blazing breaking game mechanics with dps. There is group coordination involved to min/max group dps AND sustain. Take the situation into 4-man groups or solo play like vMA and sustain isn't the same. It's not something that people just ignore and don't consider...

akray21

That is exactly what I'm worried about... PvE... My main group can barley complete the easy vet dungeons because we lack DPS, that will be made worse with sustain changes. Goodbye SPC and Sanctuary set, because healers will be running Seducer and Worms just to keep up and always have a heal when needed...

Mojmir

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

I respect your opinion on the matter. But PvEers keep pointing fingers at PvP for any "woes" that come there way. Not sure if you personally, but I believe many PvEers just want to have builds that can melt content as fast as possible, just because.

The world wasn't coming to an end when ZOS took crit hits away from proc sets. Builds are still plenty strong, but boy were PvEers rabid about that.

No one, even ZOS, knows how everything will shake out until the update actually goes live. That is the case for every single game and every single update.

proc sets is itemization and easily worked around, this is a sustain issue which affects overall gameplay. as has been pointed out by others, changing sets isnt helping and theyre forcing a different playstyle. i dont blame PvP, i blame out of touch development which cannot fix either side.

Galendior

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I agree 100% with your first paragraph, and disagree 100% with your second. The second is just cynical.

Top tier players play for the challenge. They don't do random groups often because they don't enjoy repetitive content. I know many groups and have been in several who have done dungeons naked, or weaponless, or solo just for fun, but you wouldn't know that because they are done in private. I know a few top tier players who still do queue into random dungeons from time to time, myself included when I need to farm something. But those activities get boring quickly when you've done all of the content hundreds of times over. One of NA/PC's top trials groups, who has vmol hm on farm, is currently attempting it with an all nightblade group...in a desperate attempt to find a challenge. They won't let me in, and I'm jelly. All nb vmol group sounds fun as hell.

- They do play repetitive content (as a highend raidgroup)
...but they do not play the same content random instead because it is repetitive

- They do play for the challenge in a minmaxed raidgroup that clears everything without challenge
...but avoid going random (which would be a challenge)


That does sound more like they want to have it as easy as possible. I won't blame them for that, i would probably do that too, but i wouldn't spout stuff like "i want a challenge" then.
The content is probably too hard for most already, claiming that there is no way to have challenging fights is nonsense.

Fvh09NL

Akimbro wrote: »

Fvh09NL wrote: »

This is not only a pvp issue, only stacking damage in pve without having to keep in mind anything sustain-related is the problem on the pve side of the coin. Both sides are bad, both bare blame, but I just hope they will adjust some bosses as they have enrage(-like) mechanics, which will become a lot harder since dps will drop in this patch due to sustain being so low.

It's really not JUST stacking damage in PVE...

In raids your consideration for resource sustain is through group synergy (worm, minor mag steal, orbs, etc.). It's not just 8 dps'ers running around guns blazing breaking game mechanics with dps. There is group coordination involved to min/max group dps AND sustain. Take the situation into 4-man groups or solo play like vMA and sustain isn't the same. It's not something that people just ignore and don't consider...

Of course you consider sustain as a group, but in most cases those synergies you mention are provided by the healers so the dd's can fully focus on maximum dps. I think now with these changes dd's can't just rely on the healer to provide sustain, which is good imo. Although I also think they should have left the classes alone, the nerf through champion points (and maybe armor passives) would do imo.