Side effect of Templar's nerf: Good bye PvP Stamplars.

WillhelmBlack

It was necessary unfortunately because of Magplar. A functional Blazing Shield for Stamplar would be nice. Make it a flat value that scales off level.

hmsdragonfly

SnubbS wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

SnubbS wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

SnubbS wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

StamDK is bad on live?! What is this?!

I can't tell if you're trolling right now. It isn't bad in the grand scope of the game—but it does not compare favorably to other Stambuilds. The passives are lack luster, the active skills just aren't up to par with the other classes'—can I get a cost comparison between Fear and Fossilize? Because it's a damn crime if Fear costs less.

It's really telling that you can take any build that you run on StamDK—just bolt it to a StamSorc and have better damage, better healing and better sustain. You lose straightup tankiness, but in my opinion you'll at least make up a bit of that through mobility. The best thing StamDK has going for it right now is the Dodge-roll>Igneous>Vigor combo and Igneous partially eating the next attack—helps not being executed at times. I don't feel like that plus point is better than just base damage increases, or having a skill as good as Dark Deal.

I agree with Fengrush. Stamdk is already amazing, tankiness is stamdk's selling point.

Then their selling point is complete trash—how will myth continue?. It isn't like Dodge Roll>Igneous>Vigor is that good—it's a cool little thing do sometimes—you know what's a lot more effective? Streaking behind a tree to LoS, Purifying the dots/poisons off you—or cloaking the dots.

Like okay—StamDK, your classes selling point is "Tankiness" that's what you're supposed to be. You're the "Tanky" class—they're not that tanky. If you're specced into damage—they aren't that much Tankier than the other StamClasses. Like, please try to prove me wrong on this. Stamplar is very, very nearly as Tanky as StamDK—and the other classes have ways of avoiding the damage that StamDK would take if in similar scenarios.

Well we all know that stamsorc is the best stam class right now, but it doesn't make stamDK "trash". Your argument is like "Stamsorc is better, so it means Stamdk is trash", well, that's not how things work.

StamDK's tankiness comes from igneous shield, major mending, and ult regen. You totally forgot about ult regen. Stamplar is not as tanky as stamdk, even with major mending, and don't let me even think about stamblade.

Honestly you are the first person to say "Stamdk is trash". Have never seen something like that in my life. Every player I have seen has said that stamdk is good. Every single one. You are the only one who said stamdk is not tanky and stamdk is trash. Well, yes, you can build a squishy stamdk, and you can even build a tanky stamblade if you want to, but that's your choice, in general the tankiest stamblade cannot be as tanky as the tankiest stamdk.

"Well we all know that stamsorc is the best stam class right now, but it doesn't make stamDK "trash". Your argument is like "Stamsorc is better, so it means Stamdk is trash", well, that's not how things work."

WRONG.

When you have two classes which have nearly identical playstyles, and one is just better than the other in every measurable way apart from spell resistance and an ulti gen passive—no it literally does work that way.

"StamDK's tankiness comes from igneous shield, major mending, and ult regen. You totally forgot about ult regen. Stamplar is not as tanky as stamdk, even with major mending, and don't let me even think about stamblade.

Ulti-gen doesn't make you tankier unless you're using Corrosive/SnB ult. I'm really failing to understand where you're going with this—StamSorc also has ulti cost reduction, which is usually better in my opinion. Standard Dawnbreaker cost is 125, it's 107 on StamSorc—so you'd have to proc the ulti-gen passive six times in between ults to get the same ult back. Another way of looking at it is that StamSorc just gets the effect of that passive proccing 6 times permanently. You're also relying on Magicka skills to proc it, unlike Stamplar where you can get the same passive by casting a great ability (Power Of the Light) which costs stam, and is a skill you'd be casting constantly anyway. Oh, and Templar has reduced ulti-cost as well. The great StamDK ulti-gen you were talking about—it's a myth.

"Honestly you are the first person to say "Stamdk is trash". Have never seen something like that in my life. Every player I have seen has said that stamdk is good. Every single one. You are the only one who said stamdk is not tanky and stamdk is trash. Well, yes, you can build a squishy stamdk, and you can even build a tanky stamblade if you want to, but that's your choice, in general the tankiest stamblade cannot be as tanky as the tankiest stamdk."

StamDK isn't trash—I didn't say that—you pointed out their "Selling point" and I said that their selling point was trash—because it is trash. The class itself isn't bad enough in the scope of the game to be called straight up trash—I mained it for 7 months, it's not unplayable, nor is it particularly hard to play and that's probably why everyone sees it as a viable class. I also didn't say it wasn't Tanky—I said it wasn't 'That' Tanky after saying(or implying, I forget) it was the Tankiest class. You're missing a very important point though—"Tankiness" doesn't matter anywhere near as much as 'Survivability.' If you can avoid a hit, that's a lot better than taking one. Also, you brought up MajorMending—which is directly related to healing. StamSorc has more healing, Surge is better than MajorMending. It never ends—honestly the list of skills & passives that just outclass StamDK it just doesn't stop.

You keep trying to insinuate that StamNB isn't a good class in this meta—and you're just so wrong in that statement. The only reason anyone even thinks this is because StamNB actually does have a learning curve to it. It isn't the easiest class to play—it's the opposite issue that StamDK has. StamDK is quite straightforward—it's more about learning the 2h animation cancels than really anything with the class. StamNB is the opposite—I'm not going to pretend it's the hardest thing in the world—but I do feel like there's a higher skill-gap with NB, and a higher ceiling for effectiveness in open world. That's just my opinion, and I could be wrong on it. StamDK though—I'll argue about this for the next 7 months unless Heavy Attack builds become a viable thing in Morrowind.

Let me rephrase this: It is much easier to build a stamdk towards tankiness than to build other classes towards tankiness.

Do you agree?

Kas

what a thread xDDD
at least it will now make me go back to work.

tons of walls of text about stamplars, not even mentioning extended ritual (it's THE class defining skill atm and still will be come morrowind).
then, a huge discussion about stam dk's disregarding helping hands + battle roar and their implications (they're the reason stam dk's are strong now and imho they're also where stam dk's are gonna take the biggest hit, come next patch)

hmsdragonfly

Kas wrote: »

what a thread xDDD
at least it will now make me go back to work.

tons of walls of text about stamplars, not even mentioning extended ritual (it's THE class defining skill atm and still will be come morrowind).
then, a huge discussion about stam dk's disregarding helping hands + battle roar and their implications (they're the reason stam dk's are strong now and imho they're also where stam dk's are gonna take the biggest hit, come next patch)

Well in my opinion, it's still hard to survive with only cleanse.

SnubbS

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

SnubbS wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

SnubbS wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

SnubbS wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

StamDK is bad on live?! What is this?!

I can't tell if you're trolling right now. It isn't bad in the grand scope of the game—but it does not compare favorably to other Stambuilds. The passives are lack luster, the active skills just aren't up to par with the other classes'—can I get a cost comparison between Fear and Fossilize? Because it's a damn crime if Fear costs less.

It's really telling that you can take any build that you run on StamDK—just bolt it to a StamSorc and have better damage, better healing and better sustain. You lose straightup tankiness, but in my opinion you'll at least make up a bit of that through mobility. The best thing StamDK has going for it right now is the Dodge-roll>Igneous>Vigor combo and Igneous partially eating the next attack—helps not being executed at times. I don't feel like that plus point is better than just base damage increases, or having a skill as good as Dark Deal.

I agree with Fengrush. Stamdk is already amazing, tankiness is stamdk's selling point.

Then their selling point is complete trash—how will myth continue?. It isn't like Dodge Roll>Igneous>Vigor is that good—it's a cool little thing do sometimes—you know what's a lot more effective? Streaking behind a tree to LoS, Purifying the dots/poisons off you—or cloaking the dots.

Like okay—StamDK, your classes selling point is "Tankiness" that's what you're supposed to be. You're the "Tanky" class—they're not that tanky. If you're specced into damage—they aren't that much Tankier than the other StamClasses. Like, please try to prove me wrong on this. Stamplar is very, very nearly as Tanky as StamDK—and the other classes have ways of avoiding the damage that StamDK would take if in similar scenarios.

Well we all know that stamsorc is the best stam class right now, but it doesn't make stamDK "trash". Your argument is like "Stamsorc is better, so it means Stamdk is trash", well, that's not how things work.

StamDK's tankiness comes from igneous shield, major mending, and ult regen. You totally forgot about ult regen. Stamplar is not as tanky as stamdk, even with major mending, and don't let me even think about stamblade.

Honestly you are the first person to say "Stamdk is trash". Have never seen something like that in my life. Every player I have seen has said that stamdk is good. Every single one. You are the only one who said stamdk is not tanky and stamdk is trash. Well, yes, you can build a squishy stamdk, and you can even build a tanky stamblade if you want to, but that's your choice, in general the tankiest stamblade cannot be as tanky as the tankiest stamdk.

"Well we all know that stamsorc is the best stam class right now, but it doesn't make stamDK "trash". Your argument is like "Stamsorc is better, so it means Stamdk is trash", well, that's not how things work."

WRONG.

When you have two classes which have nearly identical playstyles, and one is just better than the other in every measurable way apart from spell resistance and an ulti gen passive—no it literally does work that way.

"StamDK's tankiness comes from igneous shield, major mending, and ult regen. You totally forgot about ult regen. Stamplar is not as tanky as stamdk, even with major mending, and don't let me even think about stamblade.

Ulti-gen doesn't make you tankier unless you're using Corrosive/SnB ult. I'm really failing to understand where you're going with this—StamSorc also has ulti cost reduction, which is usually better in my opinion. Standard Dawnbreaker cost is 125, it's 107 on StamSorc—so you'd have to proc the ulti-gen passive six times in between ults to get the same ult back. Another way of looking at it is that StamSorc just gets the effect of that passive proccing 6 times permanently. You're also relying on Magicka skills to proc it, unlike Stamplar where you can get the same passive by casting a great ability (Power Of the Light) which costs stam, and is a skill you'd be casting constantly anyway. Oh, and Templar has reduced ulti-cost as well. The great StamDK ulti-gen you were talking about—it's a myth.

"Honestly you are the first person to say "Stamdk is trash". Have never seen something like that in my life. Every player I have seen has said that stamdk is good. Every single one. You are the only one who said stamdk is not tanky and stamdk is trash. Well, yes, you can build a squishy stamdk, and you can even build a tanky stamblade if you want to, but that's your choice, in general the tankiest stamblade cannot be as tanky as the tankiest stamdk."

StamDK isn't trash—I didn't say that—you pointed out their "Selling point" and I said that their selling point was trash—because it is trash. The class itself isn't bad enough in the scope of the game to be called straight up trash—I mained it for 7 months, it's not unplayable, nor is it particularly hard to play and that's probably why everyone sees it as a viable class. I also didn't say it wasn't Tanky—I said it wasn't 'That' Tanky after saying(or implying, I forget) it was the Tankiest class. You're missing a very important point though—"Tankiness" doesn't matter anywhere near as much as 'Survivability.' If you can avoid a hit, that's a lot better than taking one. Also, you brought up MajorMending—which is directly related to healing. StamSorc has more healing, Surge is better than MajorMending. It never ends—honestly the list of skills & passives that just outclass StamDK it just doesn't stop.

You keep trying to insinuate that StamNB isn't a good class in this meta—and you're just so wrong in that statement. The only reason anyone even thinks this is because StamNB actually does have a learning curve to it. It isn't the easiest class to play—it's the opposite issue that StamDK has. StamDK is quite straightforward—it's more about learning the 2h animation cancels than really anything with the class. StamNB is the opposite—I'm not going to pretend it's the hardest thing in the world—but I do feel like there's a higher skill-gap with NB, and a higher ceiling for effectiveness in open world. That's just my opinion, and I could be wrong on it. StamDK though—I'll argue about this for the next 7 months unless Heavy Attack builds become a viable thing in Morrowind.

Let me rephrase this: It is much easier to build a stamdk towards tankiness than to build other classes towards tankiness.

Do you agree?

Yes. However I do not agree that Tankiness itself leads to higher survivability. After Morrowind, I genuinely think Warden will probably be tankier and have more survivability than StamDK. You'll be able to get 20% dodge chance, and the Warden wings look more usable than the DK wings. I'm pretty confident that they'll have a higher up-time on because they restore Magicka when hit—unless this Magicka restore is a total joke.

The selling point of the class used to be the ult. It was amazing around IC, Orsinium—and up until Dawnbreaker got changed. It made DK the best StamBuild because you had something unique damage-wise, and it was the hardest hitting Ulti in the game. That's just not really a thing anymore—leap still hits hard, but Dawbreaker (Vs Vamps) hits like 1k less on DK—and probably about the same as DBoS on StamSorc. I'm not saying buff Leap—it's fine where it is. The class just needs something unique—and Molten Armaments just isn't cutting it right now.

Something like changing one of the morphs of Wings into an 8 second buff with a 33% chance to proc reflect—or maybe restoring Molten to its former glory. It's probably getting buffed after Morrowind imo—I don't think it'll be where it is forever.

Kalante

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I don't know if you guys have considered this, the nerf to Major Mending means that Stamplars will be much less viable in PvP. (I don't want to say the word "dead", but it will be pretty much it).

Major Mending is the only thing that keep Stamplars viable in PvP compared to Stamsorcs, StamDKs, and Stamnbs. While stamsorcs and Stamnbs don't have major mending, they have ways to get away from dangerous situation, stamsorcs can streak behind a corner then dark deal, stamnbs can cloak away or use shadow image), stamplars cannot tank like stamdks, and don't have any get away mechanism, I think it will be pretty much it for PvP stamplars.

Please consider to make any change that boost stamplar's survivability if you really want to go with the major mending nerf.

LOL thats if cloak even works. Stam nb is hard mode open world. No reliable major ward and zero major mending.

templesus

Kalante wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

I don't know if you guys have considered this, the nerf to Major Mending means that Stamplars will be much less viable in PvP. (I don't want to say the word "dead", but it will be pretty much it).

Major Mending is the only thing that keep Stamplars viable in PvP compared to Stamsorcs, StamDKs, and Stamnbs. While stamsorcs and Stamnbs don't have major mending, they have ways to get away from dangerous situation, stamsorcs can streak behind a corner then dark deal, stamnbs can cloak away or use shadow image), stamplars cannot tank like stamdks, and don't have any get away mechanism, I think it will be pretty much it for PvP stamplars.

Please consider to make any change that boost stamplar's survivability if you really want to go with the major mending nerf.

LOL thats if cloak even works. Stam nb is hard mode open world. No reliable major ward and zero major mending.

Did you just say stam nb is hard mode open world? Ive played every class, just recently made a stamblade, dont have undaunted, wear 7 heavy black rose 1 kena 1 veli agility and maelstrom weapons, have no recovery at all and dog people. 16k+ incaps. It is literally the easiest thing i have ever played in pvp. Dont have to worry about sustain for 1 bit. On top of it all i dont even need cloak because with mirage up and after a surprise attack or fear(gives major ward and resolve for 10 seconds) i have 29k resistances on my bow bar. Easy mode. My high crit for being a stamblade and high damage because i dont need sustain makes up for the major mending.