What do you think is needed in order to make medium, and light armor competitive again?

technohic

Joy_Division wrote: »

Kay1 wrote: »

Medium: + 4200 Physical Penetration
Light: + 12% Spell Damage

But I would still say nothing.

With the changes coming with Morrowind Heavy Armor will be nerfed to the ground and any expert in PvP knows it, without the reduce cost CP Heavy Armor is trash that's why you didn't see a single Heavy Armor user with the double ap event.

What needs to be done to balance things up for Medium and Light users, because what hurts the most those 2 different armors are the current meta.

Permablocking needs to be nerfed, only for PvP by increasing the cost of blocking in PvP by maybe 35%.

Reduce the healing from instant burst heals like Rally, Breath of Life, ect... so you will reward people that actually uses more skills instead of pressing one button and get 10k health back.

Reduce the damage from siege weapons, I 1 shotted 3 light armor templars few days ago with 1 stone trebuchet.

As a non-expert PvP player, I would say the following.

When Morrowind comes out, I most likely still will be wearing heavy armor. Much of my sustain comes independent of the CP system. I hate to burst the bubble of all of those people who hate heavy armor tanks, but the good ones, i.e. the ones that prompt people to come on these forums and whine to ZOS, are going to do fine next patch if all ZoS does is remove CP from battlegrounds and get rid of the cost reduction CP star. Until I see substantive changes that doesn't make wearing light armor defenseless aside from shield spamming, I will not be wearing it. But we have no idea what ZoS will do with any of the armor.

During the double AP event, I wore the same setup and did just fine.

You want to increase the block cost in PvP by 35%? You ever try blocking in light armor in Azura Star? I can most assure you that is not that way to make Light Armor more appealing.

But what do I know? I'm not an expert and I lack the clairvoyance to know that changes ZoS is making in the next patch.

^ Truth. I use heavy on my Templar in Azuras because i won't sit there spamming shields or BOL heal bot and adding more damage to the other sets will just make me more stuck in heavy armor. I'm not a top PVP player but even I can sustain just fine without CP.

I do still run medium armor on my NB because I'm in stealth a lot and dodge roll is still "ok" and I enjoy the play style. I am bracing however; for more undodgeable attacks and that is going to force me to heavy armor.

So it's not really because heavy is so good. It's more because you can get burst down so quick with the other armors. Now if they nerf the he'll out of it, get ready for arenas to all be sorcs and gankers then sprinkle in some trollplars. We've had this meta before.

Chilly-McFreeze

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

There needs to be a way to make people to want to use light and medium armor and deal with the reprocussions of dying more often. And it needs to be ridiculous, bordering on game breakingly obvious.

For example, add in a 5 piece perk of 20% extra magic for light, and 20% extra stamina for medium.

As of right now all of the bonuses sound cool when on a spreadsheet but that speadsheet doesn't work too well in Cyrodiil.

So to get this straight. The premise is that "too many" people are wearing heavy armor and "not enough" wear light or medium?

So what is the reason people choose to wear heavy instead of ma or la beside the loss of damage or penetration? For me, and I guess for many other players, it's the possibility to survive the high damage output of other players.

And your conclusion is to raise the damage even further? Which would be an even bigger incentive to wear heavy.

TheDoomsdayMonster

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

There needs to be a way to make people to want to use light and medium armor and deal with the reprocussions of dying more often. And it needs to be ridiculous, bordering on game breakingly obvious.

For example, add in a 5 piece perk of 20% extra magic for light, and 20% extra stamina for medium.

As of right now all of the bonuses sound cool when on a spreadsheet but that speadsheet doesn't work too well in Cyrodiil.

That's an awesome idea if you want to remove everything except petsorcs from the game. Ressource increase always favour magicka while dmg increase favour stamina.


I think light armor is pretty strong right now. Skeleton Pirate, Shuffle (yes, it's available for magicka builds while Dampen isn't available on stambuilds) and Dampen Magicka turn them into tanks. Only weakness are snares and I agree that they shouldn't suffer that much from it but the other points should get a nerf.

Medium armor is a tough one. Would actually like to see that more stuff becomes dodgeable again. I literally died to my friend on his manablade just to one Soul Strike and one Skoria proc and nothing else while permablocking in medium armor... A 90k tooltip damage skill which ignores dodgeroll is just completely stupid (probably even worse than shieldbreaker and shieldbreaker is already one of the worst designed things in the game).
The main problem I see is what dodgeroll does cost and what it gives actually. As long as I can trust my stamina bar, the first dodgeroll already costs me 2.8k stamina, so almost the same as dampen magicka and much more than hardened ward (not even talking about stacking hardened and harness which costs basically nothing at all if you get hit by magicka damage lmao). I think that this is just way over the top compared to how cheap block and shieldspam is right now. Yes, there is a break even point then dodgeroll becomes better if getting hit by multiple enemies. But at that point you will most likely die anyways so it doesn't matter.

What if they made it so that if a move isn't dodge-able you take partial damage (~50% less damage) rather than the full amount? It still connects, and if there's a CC component or a negative effect in general it still applies. Do you think that would balance out medium armor?

So far it seems like LA doesn't need to be addressed, and it's mainly MA that needs help. Am I incorrect?

That would be ok for me, as long as Soul Strike actually gets reworked, that skill hits just way to hard even with 50% damage reduction.
The main issue remains in my opinion, that dodgeroll is just too expensive for what it actually does. It's hard to justify, that already my first dodgeroll (in 5 medium) is almost as expensive as Dampen Magicka. How many people do actually need to attack me at the same time to make my dodgeroll avoiding as much damage as one Dampen Magicka does with Shuffle and Skeleton active?

Soul Assault needs to be interruptible after 2 seconds. Nightblades shouldn't be the only class able to defend themselves against that ultimate.

50% of the people in Cyrodiil know how to survive a Soul Assault quite easily. I only equip it because it allows me to burn down the fodder quickly so I can focus on the good players. If you are having trouble with Soul Assault it's not the game's fault.

100% agreed...

You can absolutely survive Soul Assault if you are built right...

I use Soul Assault; I have killed many with it, but there are also alot of characters that have tanked right though it as well...

SneaK

I think they should have armor and CP directly related, making each CP color tree scale with certain armor. In other words, to benefit 100% from the red CP nodes, you would have to wear 7 pieces of heavy armor. In order to benefit 100% from the blue CP nodes, you would have to wear 7 pieces of light armor. Would still benefit from the other color CP's but it would scale down, ie 7 Heavy Armor could only receive ~50% of the blue nodes, etc.

That said, they would need to realign some of the CP nodes for better balance. In the end though I think this would tone down the CP power and make your choice of armor more important.

Saint_Bud

As a m templar or mDK player i chose heavy armour and will do this in the next patch.

Why? This classes defance is t hold block and this does not work in light. Also the resist is a bit to low at the time, because of the change of sharpend with thief guild patch. Blocking with a froststaff is not a reall option and i dont like how it looks.

I thing medeum i on some classes really good (stamblades, stampler) with the right sets (bonepirat and co) and a buff must be really careful to not overpover this builds.

Light armour needs more defance and player must be able to hold block (stamreg while blocking) like it was in 1.5, other templar or dk will not choose this armour because of perma dead. Also armour traits are a bad for light armour, because you need heavy armour, legs and shield in defending and so we miss 3-4 trait peaces that cant be sturdyt, rest impen.

Only with nearly the same options in defance player will choose light over heavy, because we want to win fights and not dieing. Light armour doesnt give this option at the time, so no rreason to wear it.

rfennell_ESO

One of the real problems with heavy armor "builds" is they sacrifice nothing.

I would just add one thing to 5 heavy armor, and that's can not be granted any movement speed buffs and have increased cost of sprinting.

SneaK

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

One of the real problems with heavy armor "builds" is they sacrifice nothing.

I would just add one thing to 5 heavy armor, and that's can not be granted any movement speed buffs and have increased cost of sprinting.

What I suggested, with some changes to the current CP layout, would mean going full heavy sacrifices damage and healing initiated..

Sensei_Brew

Put points in health

Durham

Light and Medium are still excellent... In large group setup it's good... only in small setup do you really see heavy perform well even then it really comes down to the player...

Keep I mind that the vast majority of players in this game do not pvp... Heavy is still primarely only used for tanking in that aspect of the game..

H4RDFOX

There will be lots of HA in battlegrounds for the survivability aspect. The issue I have with HA is the return in damage, at least the passive should only count for physical damage, not spell/poison/disease damage. That would have HA in line with the other armor types.

Anti_Virus

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Kay1 wrote: »

Medium: + 4200 Physical Penetration
Light: + 12% Spell Damage

But I would still say nothing.

With the changes coming with Morrowind Heavy Armor will be nerfed to the ground and any expert in PvP knows it, without the reduce cost CP Heavy Armor is trash that's why you didn't see a single Heavy Armor user with the double ap event.

What needs to be done to balance things up for Medium and Light users, because what hurts the most those 2 different armors are the current meta.

Permablocking needs to be nerfed, only for PvP by increasing the cost of blocking in PvP by maybe 35%.

Reduce the healing from instant burst heals like Rally, Breath of Life, ect... so you will reward people that actually uses more skills instead of pressing one button and get 10k health back.

Reduce the damage from siege weapons, I 1 shotted 3 light armor templars few days ago with 1 stone trebuchet.

They do? The fixed values of constitution passive are even better in noCP, so many people on Azura use heavy and I bet you would find many "experts in PVP" that would actually disagree with your statement. Thats speaking in general. Stamsorcs in heavy on no CP are even better.

With Dark deal yeah.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

KingJ wrote: »

utb99 wrote: »

LA and MA should prioritize damage so LA should give a spell damage bonus and medium should give a penetration bonus.

Even that wouldn't stop me from using heavy in pvp.

Exactly. The ONLY way to convince someone currently using heavy armor to switch is to give a bonus large enough that people no longer care about dying. What is 2442 penetration gonna do for you? Melt an opponent you gank 0.15 seconds faster? Whoop te do. You're still gonna get run through by the next person to come along.

It HAS TO be an absurd bonus. Wearing 5 LA gives you 10,000 extra penetration. Maybe that's enough, but I'd still be in HA even then.

As @Joy_Division a few posts ago already pointed out, these changes won't hurt good players at all. I'm on a PVP tank and my regen is already crap. I learned to play without much regen a long time ago. I know it won't effect me at all.

Ocelot9x

For medium: remove the sneak passive and replace with critical resistance for each piece allowing medium guys to run well fitted\divines.
Light is actually fine,people preferring heavy is just a l2p issue.

technohic

The answer is not more damage. It's survivability needed for medium and light. Thats the reason people wear heavy in PVP but not PVE where the 1 guy wearing it can hold agro.

Light should get the roll dodge reduction to have that just like medium does and longer shields but only allow 1 at a time.

Medium should get a a damage return or maybe a slight bump in resistance to where it is a little closer to heavy.

Then they could also look at sets. Some provide way too much damage in heavy while there are not a lot that provides a lot of defense in light and medium.

There is also a matter of CP that clouds all issues as it has barely been touched as other things have gotten balanced.

utb99

If you nerf HA's Tankiness people will just run tankier sets and we're back to the beginning

Strider_Roshin

utb99 wrote: »

If you nerf HA's Tankiness people will just run tankier sets and we're back to the beginning

I'm not asking for HA nerfs, I'm asking for MA buffs.

Izaki

Derra wrote: »

I think personally - when only looking at stamina comparing medium armor to heavy there is not enough focus on heavy armor sets:
Fury, Seventh Legion, Veiled Heritance, Truth and ravager are in my opinion more appealing than basically anything medium armor sets have to offer (with the debateable exception of bone pirate).

They´re also way better than most magica focused heavy sets aswell - but thats a different topic.

^^^^^^^^This exactly

Vaoh

I hate the heavy armor meta personally. If it was up to me, Light would be for Magicka, Medium would be for Stamina, and Heavy would be for pure tankiness. Remove the Wrath passive. Give em whatever passive it is Heavy Amror had to lose for it in the past.

Many will disagree, but I never wanted Heavy Armor to be for anything more than Tanks/Support/tanky Healers builds. Doesnt make sense for me.

Oh and btw,
Heavy Armor > Medium/Light in Morrowind PvP.

You'd still gimp yourself going Light armor unless you're a Mag Sorc. Heavy givesyou that extra health/healing recieved and resource gain from heavy attacks that is way too strong to give up. Plus Heavy Armor faces less debuffing from that new CP star that lowers Regen.

emily3989

I think the loss of sustain CP might give lt and med more consideration in regards to passive venefits

Strider_Roshin

emily3989 wrote: »

I think the loss of sustain CP might give lt and med more consideration in regards to passive venefits

They nerfed the cost reduction associated with medium, and light armor =/

GreenSoup2HoT

All we need is armor skills to be locked to 5 pieces of their specific skillline. Medium is also counter productive because of stamina regen being killed by core actions. If gap closers has reduced range maybe it would be better balanced.

Vapirko

Kay1 wrote: »

Medium: + 4200 Physical Penetration
Light: + 12% Spell Damage

But I would still say nothing.

With the changes coming with Morrowind Heavy Armor will be nerfed to the ground and any expert in PvP knows it, without the reduce cost CP Heavy Armor is trash that's why you didn't see a single Heavy Armor user with the double ap event.

What needs to be done to balance things up for Medium and Light users, because what hurts the most those 2 different armors are the current meta.

Permablocking needs to be nerfed, only for PvP by increasing the cost of blocking in PvP by maybe 35%.

Reduce the healing from instant burst heals like Rally, Breath of Life, ect... so you will reward people that actually uses more skills instead of pressing one button and get 10k health back.

Reduce the damage from siege weapons, I 1 shotted 3 light armor templars few days ago with 1 stone trebuchet.

People run heavy in azuras all the time.

Vrenk

All they need to do is nerf regen CP even more so that medium/light has the same or more sustain as it does in live

olsborg

Medium and Light armor does need to be improved vs the allround good heavy armor.

First off they need to revert the nerfs to light and medium armor on pts, and reduce the nerf to constitution by half.
Medium armor needs an added passive like "when you wear 5 or more medium armor pieces you gain 2k physical penetration etc"

Light armor could have a passive like "when you wear 5 or more light armor pieces any damage shield you cast will last Xs longer or is X% bigger"

Then they need to make all the armor skills require 5 of that particular armor type slotted. Example: To cast shuffle you will need to have 5 medium armor piece slotted.

Just at the top of my head.

Anti_Virus

Vapirko wrote: »

Kay1 wrote: »

Medium: + 4200 Physical Penetration
Light: + 12% Spell Damage

But I would still say nothing.

With the changes coming with Morrowind Heavy Armor will be nerfed to the ground and any expert in PvP knows it, without the reduce cost CP Heavy Armor is trash that's why you didn't see a single Heavy Armor user with the double ap event.

What needs to be done to balance things up for Medium and Light users, because what hurts the most those 2 different armors are the current meta.

Permablocking needs to be nerfed, only for PvP by increasing the cost of blocking in PvP by maybe 35%.

Reduce the healing from instant burst heals like Rally, Breath of Life, ect... so you will reward people that actually uses more skills instead of pressing one button and get 10k health back.

Reduce the damage from siege weapons, I 1 shotted 3 light armor templars few days ago with 1 stone trebuchet.

People run heavy in azuras all the time.

[Citation Needed]

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Because of shields is why light armor doesn't need a shuffle equivalent. You're idea for medium armor is decent enough. Allowing us to focus into other traits. Though it's more of a Jerry rigging fix. It doesn't really address the actual problem. Just forces us into another corner.

jakeyura

Light armor does NOT need a buff. Light armor sorcs are the strongest class in PVE and PVP.

For medium armor replace the sneak reduction passive with a max stamina passive increase of 15%.

Also a passive that increases weapon damage to damage shields by 15%. Light Armor gets a penetration passive to counter heavy armor. Why can't medium counter light?

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Buffing the resistance of cloth and leather to put up an equal defense as to that of metal is stupid so forget about that. Light and Medium need to have a buff to magic or stamina so large that people have to be ok with the trade off to dying more.

My Templar has 50k magic and about 30k in each resistance while standing in my Templar circle. For me to go down to, say, 10k resistance would require me to take a MASSIVE trade off.

Even 10% more magic wouldn't be enough. 20%, maybe. But it's gotta be something that is borderline silly, because people really hate getting one shot.

KingJ

I'm calling it right now. 2 weeks into the update everyone going to switch back to heavy armor. Players will take to much damage in medium and light next patch since ZoS didn't Nerf damage only sustain. Proc sets are also going to push more people towards heavy since they are making a huge com back since they are free sustain .

technohic

KingJ wrote: »

I'm calling it right now. 2 weeks into the update everyone going to switch back to heavy armor. Players will take to much damage in medium and light next patch since ZoS didn't Nerf damage only sustain. Proc sets are also going to push more people towards heavy since they are making a huge com back since they are free sustain .

Yep. Light attacks getting buffed damage and are all that's required for a lot of procs. Can basically just use resources on buffs/debuffs and utility and proc away.

And heavy attacks getting more resources return for less damage while heavy already boosts that.