Is magicka sorcerer actually OP in pvp

Bramir

No

So many players think they are entitled to kill all other players with ease...

I ran all the way from Arrius to Chalman with a v400+ NB attacking me and survived by using my fancy class heal...on my lvl14 Templar.

So yes, nerf sorcerers...they are obviously the problem.

Derra

No

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

mSorc is totally out of control this patch, half of PC EU Cyrodiil jumped already on the bandwagon. Raw damage, pressure uptime and shield stacking together makes it THE best xv1 class by far and still incredibly strong in 1v1, while still being a potent negate/destro ult bot for zerg settings.

There is no other class who can burst as frequent and as dangerous as a mSorc with so much uncounterable damage, for very little effort (this patch, hi haunting and destro ult). Everything in your average mSorcs arsenal has the potential to hit incredibly hard and lines up far too easy (curse, frags, wrath explosion, fire heavies and last but not least destro ult).

It was once an art to line up burst well with mSorc, now you have to be very unfortunate to not just burst people by accident.

Considering that you stated that magsorc used to be nonthreatening or flatout free ap for you.
Does magsorc really overperform or is it just more competetive now?

I don´t know many people that consider magsorc actually strong for 1v1 if they utilize a build not centered around pets.

Mojomonkeyman

Yes

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

mSorc is totally out of control this patch, half of PC EU Cyrodiil jumped already on the bandwagon. Raw damage, pressure uptime and shield stacking together makes it THE best xv1 class by far and still incredibly strong in 1v1, while still being a potent negate/destro ult bot for zerg settings.

There is no other class who can burst as frequent and as dangerous as a mSorc with so much uncounterable damage, for very little effort (this patch, hi haunting and destro ult). Everything in your average mSorcs arsenal has the potential to hit incredibly hard and lines up far too easy (curse, frags, wrath explosion, fire heavies and last but not least destro ult).

It was once an art to line up burst well with mSorc, now you have to be very unfortunate to not just burst people by accident.

Considering that you stated that magsorc used to be nonthreatening or flatout free ap for you.
Does magsorc really overperform or is it just more competetive now?

I don´t know many people that consider magsorc actually strong for 1v1 if they utilize a build not centered around pets.

Derra, come on, we didn`t have a bunch of new compeitive players streaming in or such. I observe the people I play against. I see what they do, how they play and base my judgement on that. But thanks for bringing those isolated words that have been said with a lot of context here to prove... what exactly?

Those very same people I was talking about still do the same mistakes while playing, release frag without crisp timing, refresh curse a little too early, waste ressources when they shouldn`t, play sub-optimal - but those guys now became a threat, while still being not very talented players. They didn`t become better, the only difference now is, that they can accidentially nuke you in one cc-break. I mean, with half of the skills being fire-and-forget its rather difficult to not line up at least some of those heavy hitters from time to time. Carried by absurd amounts of uncounterable damage for minimal amounts of button clicks. So, not only is mSorc still overperforming in the defensive area (shield stacking), it is now as disgusting offensive wise. And if you don`t want to have any weakness at all - slap on that skeleton.

I actually really wonder about your strawman question style. You agreed with me several times in discussions that mSorc was in a very good spot balancing wise last patch. I`ll pretend you are asking a serious question, despite me having that answered to you in detail ingame, when was it we whispered last time, few days ago? I mean, are you serious? Yeah, I obviously think they are, indeed, severly overperforming in 3 aspects: 1) raw output of damage with lack of counters against it, 2) pressure uptime due to braindead easy haunting, destro and wrath play and 3) shield stacking (harness and skeleton, or its buff application, are the most pressing issues moreso than the actual number or mechanic in regards to 3)).

Waffennacht

No

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

mSorc is totally out of control this patch, half of PC EU Cyrodiil jumped already on the bandwagon. Raw damage, pressure uptime and shield stacking together makes it THE best xv1 class by far and still incredibly strong in 1v1, while still being a potent negate/destro ult bot for zerg settings.

There is no other class who can burst as frequent and as dangerous as a mSorc with so much uncounterable damage, for very little effort (this patch, hi haunting and destro ult). Everything in your average mSorcs arsenal has the potential to hit incredibly hard and lines up far too easy (curse, frags, wrath explosion, fire heavies and last but not least destro ult).

It was once an art to line up burst well with mSorc, now you have to be very unfortunate to not just burst people by accident.

Considering that you stated that magsorc used to be nonthreatening or flatout free ap for you.
Does magsorc really overperform or is it just more competetive now?

I don´t know many people that consider magsorc actually strong for 1v1 if they utilize a build not centered around pets.

Derra, come on, we didn`t have a bunch of new compeitive players streaming in or such. I observe the people I play against. I see what they do, how they play and base my judgement on that. But thanks for bringing those isolated words that have been said with a lot of context here to prove... what exactly?

Those very same people I was talking about still do the same mistakes while playing, release frag without crisp timing, refresh curse a little too early, waste ressources when they shouldn`t, play sub-optimal - but those guys now became a threat, while still being not very talented players. They didn`t become better, the only difference now is, that they can accidentially nuke you in one cc-break. I mean, with half of the skills being fire-and-forget its rather difficult to not line up at least some of those heavy hitters from time to time. Carried by absurd amounts of uncounterable damage for minimal amounts of button clicks. So, not only is mSorc still overperforming in the defensive area (shield stacking), it is now as disgusting offensive wise. And if you don`t want to have any weakness at all - slap on that skeleton.

I actually really wonder about your strawman question style. You agreed with me several times in discussions that mSorc was in a very good spot balancing wise last patch. I`ll pretend you are asking a serious question, despite me having that answered to you in detail ingame, when was it we whispered last time, few days ago? I mean, are you serious? Yeah, I obviously think they are, indeed, severly overperforming in 3 aspects: 1) raw output of damage with lack of counters against it, 2) pressure uptime due to braindead easy haunting, destro and wrath play and 3) shield stacking (harness and skeleton, or its buff application, are the most pressing issues moreso than the actual number or mechanic in regards to 3)).

How is that an easier than DK or NB or Templar?

Imo mDK and mTemp are right on par with Sorcs. I don't see Sorcs doing massively more damage than mTemps or mDKs. I don't see the same survivability as a mTemp. I just don't see a difference in overall gameplay.

Mojomonkeyman

Yes

Waffennacht wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

mSorc is totally out of control this patch, half of PC EU Cyrodiil jumped already on the bandwagon. Raw damage, pressure uptime and shield stacking together makes it THE best xv1 class by far and still incredibly strong in 1v1, while still being a potent negate/destro ult bot for zerg settings.

There is no other class who can burst as frequent and as dangerous as a mSorc with so much uncounterable damage, for very little effort (this patch, hi haunting and destro ult). Everything in your average mSorcs arsenal has the potential to hit incredibly hard and lines up far too easy (curse, frags, wrath explosion, fire heavies and last but not least destro ult).

It was once an art to line up burst well with mSorc, now you have to be very unfortunate to not just burst people by accident.

Considering that you stated that magsorc used to be nonthreatening or flatout free ap for you.
Does magsorc really overperform or is it just more competetive now?

I don´t know many people that consider magsorc actually strong for 1v1 if they utilize a build not centered around pets.

Derra, come on, we didn`t have a bunch of new compeitive players streaming in or such. I observe the people I play against. I see what they do, how they play and base my judgement on that. But thanks for bringing those isolated words that have been said with a lot of context here to prove... what exactly?

Those very same people I was talking about still do the same mistakes while playing, release frag without crisp timing, refresh curse a little too early, waste ressources when they shouldn`t, play sub-optimal - but those guys now became a threat, while still being not very talented players. They didn`t become better, the only difference now is, that they can accidentially nuke you in one cc-break. I mean, with half of the skills being fire-and-forget its rather difficult to not line up at least some of those heavy hitters from time to time. Carried by absurd amounts of uncounterable damage for minimal amounts of button clicks. So, not only is mSorc still overperforming in the defensive area (shield stacking), it is now as disgusting offensive wise. And if you don`t want to have any weakness at all - slap on that skeleton.

I actually really wonder about your strawman question style. You agreed with me several times in discussions that mSorc was in a very good spot balancing wise last patch. I`ll pretend you are asking a serious question, despite me having that answered to you in detail ingame, when was it we whispered last time, few days ago? I mean, are you serious? Yeah, I obviously think they are, indeed, severly overperforming in 3 aspects: 1) raw output of damage with lack of counters against it, 2) pressure uptime due to braindead easy haunting, destro and wrath play and 3) shield stacking (harness and skeleton, or its buff application, are the most pressing issues moreso than the actual number or mechanic in regards to 3)).

How is that an easier than DK or NB or Templar?

Imo mDK and mTemp are right on par with Sorcs. I don't see Sorcs doing massively more damage than mTemps or mDKs. I don't see the same survivability as a mTemp. I just don't see a difference in overall gameplay.

You don`t even ask the right questions. I feel you are too deep in denial and therefore very away from having an actual discusson about balance. My words won`t even arrive at the part of your brain that would take my input into consideration. Your mind is made up. Each and every of my recent posts complaining about mSorcs contain the same keywords which should make the so perceived difference in overall gameplay (for the receiving end in particular, when speaking pvp) abundantly clear.

Waffennacht

No

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

mSorc is totally out of control this patch, half of PC EU Cyrodiil jumped already on the bandwagon. Raw damage, pressure uptime and shield stacking together makes it THE best xv1 class by far and still incredibly strong in 1v1, while still being a potent negate/destro ult bot for zerg settings.

There is no other class who can burst as frequent and as dangerous as a mSorc with so much uncounterable damage, for very little effort (this patch, hi haunting and destro ult). Everything in your average mSorcs arsenal has the potential to hit incredibly hard and lines up far too easy (curse, frags, wrath explosion, fire heavies and last but not least destro ult).

It was once an art to line up burst well with mSorc, now you have to be very unfortunate to not just burst people by accident.

Considering that you stated that magsorc used to be nonthreatening or flatout free ap for you.
Does magsorc really overperform or is it just more competetive now?

I don´t know many people that consider magsorc actually strong for 1v1 if they utilize a build not centered around pets.

Derra, come on, we didn`t have a bunch of new compeitive players streaming in or such. I observe the people I play against. I see what they do, how they play and base my judgement on that. But thanks for bringing those isolated words that have been said with a lot of context here to prove... what exactly?

Those very same people I was talking about still do the same mistakes while playing, release frag without crisp timing, refresh curse a little too early, waste ressources when they shouldn`t, play sub-optimal - but those guys now became a threat, while still being not very talented players. They didn`t become better, the only difference now is, that they can accidentially nuke you in one cc-break. I mean, with half of the skills being fire-and-forget its rather difficult to not line up at least some of those heavy hitters from time to time. Carried by absurd amounts of uncounterable damage for minimal amounts of button clicks. So, not only is mSorc still overperforming in the defensive area (shield stacking), it is now as disgusting offensive wise. And if you don`t want to have any weakness at all - slap on that skeleton.

I actually really wonder about your strawman question style. You agreed with me several times in discussions that mSorc was in a very good spot balancing wise last patch. I`ll pretend you are asking a serious question, despite me having that answered to you in detail ingame, when was it we whispered last time, few days ago? I mean, are you serious? Yeah, I obviously think they are, indeed, severly overperforming in 3 aspects: 1) raw output of damage with lack of counters against it, 2) pressure uptime due to braindead easy haunting, destro and wrath play and 3) shield stacking (harness and skeleton, or its buff application, are the most pressing issues moreso than the actual number or mechanic in regards to 3)).

How is that an easier than DK or NB or Templar?

Imo mDK and mTemp are right on par with Sorcs. I don't see Sorcs doing massively more damage than mTemps or mDKs. I don't see the same survivability as a mTemp. I just don't see a difference in overall gameplay.

You don`t even ask the right questions. I feel you are too deep in denial and therefore very away from having an actual discusson about balance. My words won`t even arrive at the part of your brain that would take my input into consideration. Your mind is made up. Each and every of my recent posts complaining about mSorcs contain the same keywords which should make the so perceived difference in overall gameplay (for the receiving end in particular, when speaking pvp) abundantly clear.

My mind is made up. Logically going from an OP class to a non OP class would mean a loss of performance. I have experienced no such loss. Thus logically sorceror is not Op.

And then * enter all the actually well articulated arguments that have been made and ignored here*

Minalan

No

The vast majority of players here are COMPLETELY unqualified to comment on class or build balance.

They have no idea WHY they are getting ONE SHOT. HOW they are constantly ROOTED or CC'ed. They have NO idea how to make a BUILD that synergizes with their PASSIVES. They cannot DEFEND themselves, or build for DAMAGE MITIGATION and SUSTAIN. They accuse other players of CHEATING or HACKING when the lose, because they have a poor grasp of MECHANICS and GAME PLAY. Then they respawn here to demand nerfs.

Meanwhile the people who do understand the game and know how to solve the balance issues like @Derra get drowned out by the huge sack of crying potatoes. Or they're like @Thelon and just sick of arguing with taters day in an out and don't post at all.

Derra

No

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

mSorc is totally out of control this patch, half of PC EU Cyrodiil jumped already on the bandwagon. Raw damage, pressure uptime and shield stacking together makes it THE best xv1 class by far and still incredibly strong in 1v1, while still being a potent negate/destro ult bot for zerg settings.

There is no other class who can burst as frequent and as dangerous as a mSorc with so much uncounterable damage, for very little effort (this patch, hi haunting and destro ult). Everything in your average mSorcs arsenal has the potential to hit incredibly hard and lines up far too easy (curse, frags, wrath explosion, fire heavies and last but not least destro ult).

It was once an art to line up burst well with mSorc, now you have to be very unfortunate to not just burst people by accident.

Considering that you stated that magsorc used to be nonthreatening or flatout free ap for you.
Does magsorc really overperform or is it just more competetive now?

I don´t know many people that consider magsorc actually strong for 1v1 if they utilize a build not centered around pets.

I actually really wonder about your strawman question style. You agreed with me several times in discussions that mSorc was in a very good spot balancing wise last patch. I`ll pretend you are asking a serious question, despite me having that answered to you in detail ingame, when was it we whispered last time, few days ago? I mean, are you serious? Yeah, I obviously think they are, indeed, severly overperforming in 3 aspects: 1) raw output of damage with lack of counters against it, 2) pressure uptime due to braindead easy haunting, destro and wrath play and 3) shield stacking (harness and skeleton, or its buff application, are the most pressing issues moreso than the actual number or mechanic in regards to 3)).

I used to think magsorc was of pretty good balancing wise last patch. However most of what i personally enjoyed about magsorc last patch is no longer working. Mainly proccsets no longer critting and in the process not being a "reliable" source of surge healing.
Nowadays with a little different perspective and especially talking and fighting a few people who enjoy dueling more than i do: I don´t think magica sorc without pets is or was in a good spot. They were a potatoemasher and now they´re a better potatoemasher. Sadly anyone becomes a potatoe when outnumbered.
I can´t find people that die to magsorcs when not jumping into mines. Everyone i´ve been talking (and my personal experience) says: If no mine dmg is involved a magsorc alone won´t murder you (when you wear heavyarmor).
I simply can not get behind the thought process of a classes offensive capabilities being too strong when getting kills literally requires the enemy to jump into a circle of glowing orbs on the ground.

I also do think they´re overperforming on the defensive side - when utilizing stacked shields (for 1v1) or coupling them with pirate (for 1vX).

Last but not least - you say that players who were not able to touch you now became a threat. That in my opinion shows some kind of skewed perspective.
Every player with a bow, the ability to press one button for snipe and a decent template is a threat to me - and an unavoidable stealth stun from a player i´m not able to see or attack can mean instant death. I can´t name them here bc reasons but i´ll msg you.
So when you say that average magsorcs now start being a threat with the combination of curse, destro and wrath in an outnumbered situation (i mean you´re not saying that every magsorc is now demolishing you?) - i have to ask myself: What am i actually doing wrong.

brandishsteel

NERF SORC

hassubhai

No

Minalan wrote: »

The vast majority of players here are COMPLETELY unqualified to comment on class or build balance.

They have no idea WHY they are getting ONE SHOT. HOW they are constantly ROOTED or CC'ed. They have NO idea how to make a BUILD that synergizes with their PASSIVES. They cannot DEFEND themselves, or build for DAMAGE MITIGATION and SUSTAIN. They accuse other players of CHEATING or HACKING when the lose, because they have a poor grasp of MECHANICS and GAME PLAY. Then they respawn here to demand nerfs.

Meanwhile the people who do understand the game and know how to solve the balance issues like @Derra get drowned out by the huge sack of crying potatoes. Or they're like @Thelon and just sick of arguing with taters day in an out and don't post at all.

Definetly agree with you on this, i guess i just made the poll to see everyones opinion, but your definetly right in saying that most answers here hold no weight

leepalmer95

No

No.

In 1v1 shields can be strong yes, they can allow bad players to survive and heal to full when they really shouldn't be able to.

But apart from that mag sorc's aren't op.

Izaki

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

everyone knows that it is true.
sorcerer can do far more damage and survive better than all the other classes.
it has been that way since beta 2013.

LOL Every thread about sorc and you're there saying the exact same thing as you did on the previous thread. You better L2P, cause Sorcs ain't OP.

Firerock2

Yes

Waffennacht wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

mSorc is totally out of control this patch, half of PC EU Cyrodiil jumped already on the bandwagon. Raw damage, pressure uptime and shield stacking together makes it THE best xv1 class by far and still incredibly strong in 1v1, while still being a potent negate/destro ult bot for zerg settings.

There is no other class who can burst as frequent and as dangerous as a mSorc with so much uncounterable damage, for very little effort (this patch, hi haunting and destro ult). Everything in your average mSorcs arsenal has the potential to hit incredibly hard and lines up far too easy (curse, frags, wrath explosion, fire heavies and last but not least destro ult).

It was once an art to line up burst well with mSorc, now you have to be very unfortunate to not just burst people by accident.

Considering that you stated that magsorc used to be nonthreatening or flatout free ap for you.
Does magsorc really overperform or is it just more competetive now?

I don´t know many people that consider magsorc actually strong for 1v1 if they utilize a build not centered around pets.

Derra, come on, we didn`t have a bunch of new compeitive players streaming in or such. I observe the people I play against. I see what they do, how they play and base my judgement on that. But thanks for bringing those isolated words that have been said with a lot of context here to prove... what exactly?

Those very same people I was talking about still do the same mistakes while playing, release frag without crisp timing, refresh curse a little too early, waste ressources when they shouldn`t, play sub-optimal - but those guys now became a threat, while still being not very talented players. They didn`t become better, the only difference now is, that they can accidentially nuke you in one cc-break. I mean, with half of the skills being fire-and-forget its rather difficult to not line up at least some of those heavy hitters from time to time. Carried by absurd amounts of uncounterable damage for minimal amounts of button clicks. So, not only is mSorc still overperforming in the defensive area (shield stacking), it is now as disgusting offensive wise. And if you don`t want to have any weakness at all - slap on that skeleton.

I actually really wonder about your strawman question style. You agreed with me several times in discussions that mSorc was in a very good spot balancing wise last patch. I`ll pretend you are asking a serious question, despite me having that answered to you in detail ingame, when was it we whispered last time, few days ago? I mean, are you serious? Yeah, I obviously think they are, indeed, severly overperforming in 3 aspects: 1) raw output of damage with lack of counters against it, 2) pressure uptime due to braindead easy haunting, destro and wrath play and 3) shield stacking (harness and skeleton, or its buff application, are the most pressing issues moreso than the actual number or mechanic in regards to 3)).

How is that an easier than DK or NB or Templar?

Imo mDK and mTemp are right on par with Sorcs. I don't see Sorcs doing massively more damage than mTemps or mDKs. I don't see the same survivability as a mTemp. I just don't see a difference in overall gameplay.

You must play on CP because on No CP mTemps hit for nothing while mSorcs can burst you at 70% of your health even if you wear full heavy. They do nowhere near the same damage and the sustain of sorcs is far above any DK or Templar' s. Maybe it's a L2P issue that separates the casual sorc compared to those who really make their class shine

Minalan wrote: »

The vast majority of players here are COMPLETELY unqualified to comment on class or build balance.

They have no idea WHY they are getting ONE SHOT. HOW they are constantly ROOTED or CC'ed. They have NO idea how to make a BUILD that synergizes with their PASSIVES. They cannot DEFEND themselves, or build for DAMAGE MITIGATION and SUSTAIN. They accuse other players of CHEATING or HACKING when the lose, because they have a poor grasp of MECHANICS and GAME PLAY. Then they respawn here to demand nerfs.

Meanwhile the people who do understand the game and know how to solve the balance issues like @Derra get drowned out by the huge sack of crying potatoes. Or they're like @Thelon and just sick of arguing with taters day in an out and don't post at all.

What an incredibly biased statement. I guess I should have expected that though going into any nerf X thread. Classic naive realism.

LegendaryMage

Before we can talk about class balance and class balance alone, we need to talk about things that are grossly out of control, such as pirate skeleton, necropotence, combination of those two, shadow rend + atronach + necropotence combo etc. If sorcs had no access to a highly inflated magicka pool via such combos, or a major damage reduction buff that applies (and it should not) to shields, there would be a lot less threads like this one, guaranteed.

There are far worse things nowadays than there ever were (apart from maybe 0 batswarm cost spamming from back in the day) and these have nothing to do with class skills and passives, these are class-external things that are dragging everything down with it.

If someone is complaining about daedric mines after 3 years, it's a l2p issue.

I assure you, if just some of the things that I mentioned here were scratched out of the game, there would be far less 'is this class OP' threads. A lot of people will open such threads while being under the impression that a class is unbalanced, while in fact the reason why they feel like that is completely different, in most cases probably a combination of armor and buff combos that shouldn't be there.

As of now, the most OP build you could make on a sorcerer would have to utilize necropotence and pirate skeleton, or alternatively shadowrend if you're building for 1v1. You could also throw in lich on backbar and keep necro on front bar with one shield, and if you have pirate + 55k (or more) magicka, this counts as 20 shields so that's that.

Biro123

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Before we can talk about class balance and class balance alone, we need to talk about things that are grossly out of control, such as pirate skeleton, necropotence, combination of those two, shadow rend + atronach + necropotence combo etc. If sorcs had no access to a highly inflated magicka pool via such combos, or a major damage reduction buff that applies (and it should not) to shields, there would be a lot less threads like this one, guaranteed.

There are far worse things nowadays than there ever were (apart from maybe 0 batswarm cost spamming from back in the day) and these have nothing to do with class skills and passives, these are class-external things that are dragging everything down with it.

If someone is complaining about daedric mines after 3 years, it's a l2p issue.

I assure you, if just some of the things that I mentioned here were scratched out of the game, there would be far less 'is this class OP' threads. A lot of people will open such threads while being under the impression that a class is unbalanced, while in fact the reason why they feel like that is completely different, in most cases probably a combination of armor and buff combos that shouldn't be there.

As of now, the most OP build you could make on a sorcerer would have to utilize necropotence and pirate skeleton, or alternatively shadowrend if you're building for 1v1. You could also throw in lich on backbar and keep necro on front bar with one shield, and if you have pirate + 55k (or more) magicka, this counts as 20 shields so that's that.

Exactly this.. Another thing that people don't see is different builds.. I often use necropotence lich and pirate skelly when I'm outnumbered. It IS hard to kill me and the sustain is good. It doesn't give 55k mag.. More like 47k, with poor spell power. On the flip side I often run my Max burst build when there's a friendly zerg to hide behind. It has 0 sustain and does not use pirate skelly.. But I can see that some people might take the odd huge frag from my burst build, then be watching out for me, catch me alone with my outnumbered build on, then wonder how I can hit so hard yet have so much survivability and sustain...
The fact is, I can't.. Not at the same time.

Waffennacht

No

Firerock2 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

mSorc is totally out of control this patch, half of PC EU Cyrodiil jumped already on the bandwagon. Raw damage, pressure uptime and shield stacking together makes it THE best xv1 class by far and still incredibly strong in 1v1, while still being a potent negate/destro ult bot for zerg settings.

There is no other class who can burst as frequent and as dangerous as a mSorc with so much uncounterable damage, for very little effort (this patch, hi haunting and destro ult). Everything in your average mSorcs arsenal has the potential to hit incredibly hard and lines up far too easy (curse, frags, wrath explosion, fire heavies and last but not least destro ult).

It was once an art to line up burst well with mSorc, now you have to be very unfortunate to not just burst people by accident.

Considering that you stated that magsorc used to be nonthreatening or flatout free ap for you.
Does magsorc really overperform or is it just more competetive now?

I don´t know many people that consider magsorc actually strong for 1v1 if they utilize a build not centered around pets.

Derra, come on, we didn`t have a bunch of new compeitive players streaming in or such. I observe the people I play against. I see what they do, how they play and base my judgement on that. But thanks for bringing those isolated words that have been said with a lot of context here to prove... what exactly?

Those very same people I was talking about still do the same mistakes while playing, release frag without crisp timing, refresh curse a little too early, waste ressources when they shouldn`t, play sub-optimal - but those guys now became a threat, while still being not very talented players. They didn`t become better, the only difference now is, that they can accidentially nuke you in one cc-break. I mean, with half of the skills being fire-and-forget its rather difficult to not line up at least some of those heavy hitters from time to time. Carried by absurd amounts of uncounterable damage for minimal amounts of button clicks. So, not only is mSorc still overperforming in the defensive area (shield stacking), it is now as disgusting offensive wise. And if you don`t want to have any weakness at all - slap on that skeleton.

I actually really wonder about your strawman question style. You agreed with me several times in discussions that mSorc was in a very good spot balancing wise last patch. I`ll pretend you are asking a serious question, despite me having that answered to you in detail ingame, when was it we whispered last time, few days ago? I mean, are you serious? Yeah, I obviously think they are, indeed, severly overperforming in 3 aspects: 1) raw output of damage with lack of counters against it, 2) pressure uptime due to braindead easy haunting, destro and wrath play and 3) shield stacking (harness and skeleton, or its buff application, are the most pressing issues moreso than the actual number or mechanic in regards to 3)).

How is that an easier than DK or NB or Templar?

Imo mDK and mTemp are right on par with Sorcs. I don't see Sorcs doing massively more damage than mTemps or mDKs. I don't see the same survivability as a mTemp. I just don't see a difference in overall gameplay.

You must play on CP because on No CP mTemps hit for nothing while mSorcs can burst you at 70% of your health even if you wear full heavy. They do nowhere near the same damage and the sustain of sorcs is far above any DK or Templar' s. Maybe it's a L2P issue that separates the casual sorc compared to those who really make their class shine

Minalan wrote: »

The vast majority of players here are COMPLETELY unqualified to comment on class or build balance.

They have no idea WHY they are getting ONE SHOT. HOW they are constantly ROOTED or CC'ed. They have NO idea how to make a BUILD that synergizes with their PASSIVES. They cannot DEFEND themselves, or build for DAMAGE MITIGATION and SUSTAIN. They accuse other players of CHEATING or HACKING when the lose, because they have a poor grasp of MECHANICS and GAME PLAY. Then they respawn here to demand nerfs.

Meanwhile the people who do understand the game and know how to solve the balance issues like @Derra get drowned out by the huge sack of crying potatoes. Or they're like @Thelon and just sick of arguing with taters day in an out and don't post at all.

What an incredibly biased statement. I guess I should have expected that though going into any nerf X thread. Classic naive realism.

Yeah CP, cuz on xbox Azuras is dead.

However!

BWB (under 50) actually has players! So im gonna be there for a bit

Firerock2

Yes

Waffennacht wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

mSorc is totally out of control this patch, half of PC EU Cyrodiil jumped already on the bandwagon. Raw damage, pressure uptime and shield stacking together makes it THE best xv1 class by far and still incredibly strong in 1v1, while still being a potent negate/destro ult bot for zerg settings.

There is no other class who can burst as frequent and as dangerous as a mSorc with so much uncounterable damage, for very little effort (this patch, hi haunting and destro ult). Everything in your average mSorcs arsenal has the potential to hit incredibly hard and lines up far too easy (curse, frags, wrath explosion, fire heavies and last but not least destro ult).

It was once an art to line up burst well with mSorc, now you have to be very unfortunate to not just burst people by accident.

Considering that you stated that magsorc used to be nonthreatening or flatout free ap for you.
Does magsorc really overperform or is it just more competetive now?

I don´t know many people that consider magsorc actually strong for 1v1 if they utilize a build not centered around pets.

Derra, come on, we didn`t have a bunch of new compeitive players streaming in or such. I observe the people I play against. I see what they do, how they play and base my judgement on that. But thanks for bringing those isolated words that have been said with a lot of context here to prove... what exactly?

Those very same people I was talking about still do the same mistakes while playing, release frag without crisp timing, refresh curse a little too early, waste ressources when they shouldn`t, play sub-optimal - but those guys now became a threat, while still being not very talented players. They didn`t become better, the only difference now is, that they can accidentially nuke you in one cc-break. I mean, with half of the skills being fire-and-forget its rather difficult to not line up at least some of those heavy hitters from time to time. Carried by absurd amounts of uncounterable damage for minimal amounts of button clicks. So, not only is mSorc still overperforming in the defensive area (shield stacking), it is now as disgusting offensive wise. And if you don`t want to have any weakness at all - slap on that skeleton.

I actually really wonder about your strawman question style. You agreed with me several times in discussions that mSorc was in a very good spot balancing wise last patch. I`ll pretend you are asking a serious question, despite me having that answered to you in detail ingame, when was it we whispered last time, few days ago? I mean, are you serious? Yeah, I obviously think they are, indeed, severly overperforming in 3 aspects: 1) raw output of damage with lack of counters against it, 2) pressure uptime due to braindead easy haunting, destro and wrath play and 3) shield stacking (harness and skeleton, or its buff application, are the most pressing issues moreso than the actual number or mechanic in regards to 3)).

How is that an easier than DK or NB or Templar?

Imo mDK and mTemp are right on par with Sorcs. I don't see Sorcs doing massively more damage than mTemps or mDKs. I don't see the same survivability as a mTemp. I just don't see a difference in overall gameplay.

You must play on CP because on No CP mTemps hit for nothing while mSorcs can burst you at 70% of your health even if you wear full heavy. They do nowhere near the same damage and the sustain of sorcs is far above any DK or Templar' s. Maybe it's a L2P issue that separates the casual sorc compared to those who really make their class shine

Minalan wrote: »

The vast majority of players here are COMPLETELY unqualified to comment on class or build balance.

They have no idea WHY they are getting ONE SHOT. HOW they are constantly ROOTED or CC'ed. They have NO idea how to make a BUILD that synergizes with their PASSIVES. They cannot DEFEND themselves, or build for DAMAGE MITIGATION and SUSTAIN. They accuse other players of CHEATING or HACKING when the lose, because they have a poor grasp of MECHANICS and GAME PLAY. Then they respawn here to demand nerfs.

Meanwhile the people who do understand the game and know how to solve the balance issues like @Derra get drowned out by the huge sack of crying potatoes. Or they're like @Thelon and just sick of arguing with taters day in an out and don't post at all.

What an incredibly biased statement. I guess I should have expected that though going into any nerf X thread. Classic naive realism.

Yeah CP, cuz on xbox Azuras is dead.

However!

BWB (under 50) actually has players! So im gonna be there for a bit

CP is like a bandage for some class related problems. Looking at classes without CP exposes their shortcomings and their weaker passives, at least in my opinion. For example, in terms of sustain DK's have battle roar and Temps have a 4% cost reduction while Sorc's get 10% increased mag regen, 5% reduced cost, 15% reduced ult cost, and 20% more stam regen all just from their passives. Not to mention the fact that Sorc skills are cheaper across the board compared to those two other classes.

Sustain doesn't matter as much with CP since it adds enough sustain to pretty much any class/build and so these issues aren't really issues on those servers. The fact is though, sorcs have built in sustain that DK's and Templars do not have. The Templar Channeled Focus doesn't even come close to Dark Deal as well but those aren't passives.

I'm not really sure how else to argue that Sorcerers are better than DK's or Templars other than pointing out the wide gap between the class passives and how their skills ultimately cost less and do more damage than the other two. Tell me where I go wrong if you can see it because according to the majority of people in this thread you would think that these classes are on the same level.


Hardened Ward Base Cost: 3166 Magicka

Breath of Life Base Cost: 4141 Magicka

Coagulating Blood Base Cost: 3897 Magicka

Take into account the sustain passives of these classes and the fact that shields can't be crit upon. Now tell me who is greater in terms of survivability.

Minalan

No

Firerock2 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

mSorc is totally out of control this patch, half of PC EU Cyrodiil jumped already on the bandwagon. Raw damage, pressure uptime and shield stacking together makes it THE best xv1 class by far and still incredibly strong in 1v1, while still being a potent negate/destro ult bot for zerg settings.

There is no other class who can burst as frequent and as dangerous as a mSorc with so much uncounterable damage, for very little effort (this patch, hi haunting and destro ult). Everything in your average mSorcs arsenal has the potential to hit incredibly hard and lines up far too easy (curse, frags, wrath explosion, fire heavies and last but not least destro ult).

It was once an art to line up burst well with mSorc, now you have to be very unfortunate to not just burst people by accident.

Considering that you stated that magsorc used to be nonthreatening or flatout free ap for you.
Does magsorc really overperform or is it just more competetive now?

I don´t know many people that consider magsorc actually strong for 1v1 if they utilize a build not centered around pets.

Derra, come on, we didn`t have a bunch of new compeitive players streaming in or such. I observe the people I play against. I see what they do, how they play and base my judgement on that. But thanks for bringing those isolated words that have been said with a lot of context here to prove... what exactly?

Those very same people I was talking about still do the same mistakes while playing, release frag without crisp timing, refresh curse a little too early, waste ressources when they shouldn`t, play sub-optimal - but those guys now became a threat, while still being not very talented players. They didn`t become better, the only difference now is, that they can accidentially nuke you in one cc-break. I mean, with half of the skills being fire-and-forget its rather difficult to not line up at least some of those heavy hitters from time to time. Carried by absurd amounts of uncounterable damage for minimal amounts of button clicks. So, not only is mSorc still overperforming in the defensive area (shield stacking), it is now as disgusting offensive wise. And if you don`t want to have any weakness at all - slap on that skeleton.

I actually really wonder about your strawman question style. You agreed with me several times in discussions that mSorc was in a very good spot balancing wise last patch. I`ll pretend you are asking a serious question, despite me having that answered to you in detail ingame, when was it we whispered last time, few days ago? I mean, are you serious? Yeah, I obviously think they are, indeed, severly overperforming in 3 aspects: 1) raw output of damage with lack of counters against it, 2) pressure uptime due to braindead easy haunting, destro and wrath play and 3) shield stacking (harness and skeleton, or its buff application, are the most pressing issues moreso than the actual number or mechanic in regards to 3)).

How is that an easier than DK or NB or Templar?

Imo mDK and mTemp are right on par with Sorcs. I don't see Sorcs doing massively more damage than mTemps or mDKs. I don't see the same survivability as a mTemp. I just don't see a difference in overall gameplay.

You must play on CP because on No CP mTemps hit for nothing while mSorcs can burst you at 70% of your health even if you wear full heavy. They do nowhere near the same damage and the sustain of sorcs is far above any DK or Templar' s. Maybe it's a L2P issue that separates the casual sorc compared to those who really make their class shine

Minalan wrote: »

The vast majority of players here are COMPLETELY unqualified to comment on class or build balance.

They have no idea WHY they are getting ONE SHOT. HOW they are constantly ROOTED or CC'ed. They have NO idea how to make a BUILD that synergizes with their PASSIVES. They cannot DEFEND themselves, or build for DAMAGE MITIGATION and SUSTAIN. They accuse other players of CHEATING or HACKING when the lose, because they have a poor grasp of MECHANICS and GAME PLAY. Then they respawn here to demand nerfs.

Meanwhile the people who do understand the game and know how to solve the balance issues like @Derra get drowned out by the huge sack of crying potatoes. Or they're like @Thelon and just sick of arguing with taters day in an out and don't post at all.

What an incredibly biased statement. I guess I should have expected that though going into any nerf X thread. Classic naive realism.

We had one nightblade with 4K weapon damage and 15K health complaining about being killed constantly, so we helped him with his build.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka sorcerers always using hurricane on him.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka Sorcs using Magicka nightblade moves on him.

Fact is, you can hard counter a sorc with any class just by changing your build a little. The people who understand this have some decent suggestions to fix the problem. Personally I think it'll be fine next patch if they nerf pirate skeleton along with the sustain changes.

UppGRAYxDD

No

Any class can be OP in the right hands...

Firerock2

Yes

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

mSorc is totally out of control this patch, half of PC EU Cyrodiil jumped already on the bandwagon. Raw damage, pressure uptime and shield stacking together makes it THE best xv1 class by far and still incredibly strong in 1v1, while still being a potent negate/destro ult bot for zerg settings.

There is no other class who can burst as frequent and as dangerous as a mSorc with so much uncounterable damage, for very little effort (this patch, hi haunting and destro ult). Everything in your average mSorcs arsenal has the potential to hit incredibly hard and lines up far too easy (curse, frags, wrath explosion, fire heavies and last but not least destro ult).

It was once an art to line up burst well with mSorc, now you have to be very unfortunate to not just burst people by accident.

Considering that you stated that magsorc used to be nonthreatening or flatout free ap for you.
Does magsorc really overperform or is it just more competetive now?

I don´t know many people that consider magsorc actually strong for 1v1 if they utilize a build not centered around pets.

Derra, come on, we didn`t have a bunch of new compeitive players streaming in or such. I observe the people I play against. I see what they do, how they play and base my judgement on that. But thanks for bringing those isolated words that have been said with a lot of context here to prove... what exactly?

Those very same people I was talking about still do the same mistakes while playing, release frag without crisp timing, refresh curse a little too early, waste ressources when they shouldn`t, play sub-optimal - but those guys now became a threat, while still being not very talented players. They didn`t become better, the only difference now is, that they can accidentially nuke you in one cc-break. I mean, with half of the skills being fire-and-forget its rather difficult to not line up at least some of those heavy hitters from time to time. Carried by absurd amounts of uncounterable damage for minimal amounts of button clicks. So, not only is mSorc still overperforming in the defensive area (shield stacking), it is now as disgusting offensive wise. And if you don`t want to have any weakness at all - slap on that skeleton.

I actually really wonder about your strawman question style. You agreed with me several times in discussions that mSorc was in a very good spot balancing wise last patch. I`ll pretend you are asking a serious question, despite me having that answered to you in detail ingame, when was it we whispered last time, few days ago? I mean, are you serious? Yeah, I obviously think they are, indeed, severly overperforming in 3 aspects: 1) raw output of damage with lack of counters against it, 2) pressure uptime due to braindead easy haunting, destro and wrath play and 3) shield stacking (harness and skeleton, or its buff application, are the most pressing issues moreso than the actual number or mechanic in regards to 3)).

How is that an easier than DK or NB or Templar?

Imo mDK and mTemp are right on par with Sorcs. I don't see Sorcs doing massively more damage than mTemps or mDKs. I don't see the same survivability as a mTemp. I just don't see a difference in overall gameplay.

You must play on CP because on No CP mTemps hit for nothing while mSorcs can burst you at 70% of your health even if you wear full heavy. They do nowhere near the same damage and the sustain of sorcs is far above any DK or Templar' s. Maybe it's a L2P issue that separates the casual sorc compared to those who really make their class shine

Minalan wrote: »

The vast majority of players here are COMPLETELY unqualified to comment on class or build balance.

They have no idea WHY they are getting ONE SHOT. HOW they are constantly ROOTED or CC'ed. They have NO idea how to make a BUILD that synergizes with their PASSIVES. They cannot DEFEND themselves, or build for DAMAGE MITIGATION and SUSTAIN. They accuse other players of CHEATING or HACKING when the lose, because they have a poor grasp of MECHANICS and GAME PLAY. Then they respawn here to demand nerfs.

Meanwhile the people who do understand the game and know how to solve the balance issues like @Derra get drowned out by the huge sack of crying potatoes. Or they're like @Thelon and just sick of arguing with taters day in an out and don't post at all.

What an incredibly biased statement. I guess I should have expected that though going into any nerf X thread. Classic naive realism.

We had one nightblade with 4K weapon damage and 15K health complaining about being killed constantly, so we helped him with his build.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka sorcerers always using hurricane on him.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka Sorcs using Magicka nightblade moves on him.

Fact is, you can hard counter a sorc with any class just by changing your build a little. The people who understand this have some decent suggestions to fix the problem. Personally I think it'll be fine next patch if they nerf pirate skeleton along with the sustain changes.

Yes, because there is a hard counter to shield stacking. Next time I fight a sorc, I'll remember to major defile his shields



IMO any sorc who thinks Templars have a hard counter like Total Dark are insanely bad at their class and any sorc who doesn't realize that curse+crushing shock+streaking in with dawnbreaker+mages fury is going to destroy a DK who spams wings is not in their right mind. Remember that wings cost 3410 magicka and their heal costs even more. DK's can't spam them unlike sorc shields so if you pressure them enough they will fold

Izaki

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Before we can talk about class balance and class balance alone, we need to talk about things that are grossly out of control, such as pirate skeleton, necropotence, combination of those two, shadow rend + atronach + necropotence combo etc. If sorcs had no access to a highly inflated magicka pool via such combos, or a major damage reduction buff that applies (and it should not) to shields, there would be a lot less threads like this one, guaranteed.

There are far worse things nowadays than there ever were (apart from maybe 0 batswarm cost spamming from back in the day) and these have nothing to do with class skills and passives, these are class-external things that are dragging everything down with it.

If someone is complaining about daedric mines after 3 years, it's a l2p issue.

I assure you, if just some of the things that I mentioned here were scratched out of the game, there would be far less 'is this class OP' threads. A lot of people will open such threads while being under the impression that a class is unbalanced, while in fact the reason why they feel like that is completely different, in most cases probably a combination of armor and buff combos that shouldn't be there.

As of now, the most OP build you could make on a sorcerer would have to utilize necropotence and pirate skeleton, or alternatively shadowrend if you're building for 1v1. You could also throw in lich on backbar and keep necro on front bar with one shield, and if you have pirate + 55k (or more) magicka, this counts as 20 shields so that's that.

Well, if you scrap out Necropotence, then pets would probably no longer be a very viable playstyle for pet sorcs in both PvP and PvE as currently that's one of the very few benefits of using a pet - high amounts of max magicka for strong shields.

Minalan

No

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

mSorc is totally out of control this patch, half of PC EU Cyrodiil jumped already on the bandwagon. Raw damage, pressure uptime and shield stacking together makes it THE best xv1 class by far and still incredibly strong in 1v1, while still being a potent negate/destro ult bot for zerg settings.

There is no other class who can burst as frequent and as dangerous as a mSorc with so much uncounterable damage, for very little effort (this patch, hi haunting and destro ult). Everything in your average mSorcs arsenal has the potential to hit incredibly hard and lines up far too easy (curse, frags, wrath explosion, fire heavies and last but not least destro ult).

It was once an art to line up burst well with mSorc, now you have to be very unfortunate to not just burst people by accident.

Considering that you stated that magsorc used to be nonthreatening or flatout free ap for you.
Does magsorc really overperform or is it just more competetive now?

I don´t know many people that consider magsorc actually strong for 1v1 if they utilize a build not centered around pets.

Derra, come on, we didn`t have a bunch of new compeitive players streaming in or such. I observe the people I play against. I see what they do, how they play and base my judgement on that. But thanks for bringing those isolated words that have been said with a lot of context here to prove... what exactly?

Those very same people I was talking about still do the same mistakes while playing, release frag without crisp timing, refresh curse a little too early, waste ressources when they shouldn`t, play sub-optimal - but those guys now became a threat, while still being not very talented players. They didn`t become better, the only difference now is, that they can accidentially nuke you in one cc-break. I mean, with half of the skills being fire-and-forget its rather difficult to not line up at least some of those heavy hitters from time to time. Carried by absurd amounts of uncounterable damage for minimal amounts of button clicks. So, not only is mSorc still overperforming in the defensive area (shield stacking), it is now as disgusting offensive wise. And if you don`t want to have any weakness at all - slap on that skeleton.

I actually really wonder about your strawman question style. You agreed with me several times in discussions that mSorc was in a very good spot balancing wise last patch. I`ll pretend you are asking a serious question, despite me having that answered to you in detail ingame, when was it we whispered last time, few days ago? I mean, are you serious? Yeah, I obviously think they are, indeed, severly overperforming in 3 aspects: 1) raw output of damage with lack of counters against it, 2) pressure uptime due to braindead easy haunting, destro and wrath play and 3) shield stacking (harness and skeleton, or its buff application, are the most pressing issues moreso than the actual number or mechanic in regards to 3)).

How is that an easier than DK or NB or Templar?

Imo mDK and mTemp are right on par with Sorcs. I don't see Sorcs doing massively more damage than mTemps or mDKs. I don't see the same survivability as a mTemp. I just don't see a difference in overall gameplay.

You must play on CP because on No CP mTemps hit for nothing while mSorcs can burst you at 70% of your health even if you wear full heavy. They do nowhere near the same damage and the sustain of sorcs is far above any DK or Templar' s. Maybe it's a L2P issue that separates the casual sorc compared to those who really make their class shine

Minalan wrote: »

The vast majority of players here are COMPLETELY unqualified to comment on class or build balance.

They have no idea WHY they are getting ONE SHOT. HOW they are constantly ROOTED or CC'ed. They have NO idea how to make a BUILD that synergizes with their PASSIVES. They cannot DEFEND themselves, or build for DAMAGE MITIGATION and SUSTAIN. They accuse other players of CHEATING or HACKING when the lose, because they have a poor grasp of MECHANICS and GAME PLAY. Then they respawn here to demand nerfs.

Meanwhile the people who do understand the game and know how to solve the balance issues like @Derra get drowned out by the huge sack of crying potatoes. Or they're like @Thelon and just sick of arguing with taters day in an out and don't post at all.

What an incredibly biased statement. I guess I should have expected that though going into any nerf X thread. Classic naive realism.

We had one nightblade with 4K weapon damage and 15K health complaining about being killed constantly, so we helped him with his build.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka sorcerers always using hurricane on him.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka Sorcs using Magicka nightblade moves on him.

Fact is, you can hard counter a sorc with any class just by changing your build a little. The people who understand this have some decent suggestions to fix the problem. Personally I think it'll be fine next patch if they nerf pirate skeleton along with the sustain changes.

Yes, because there is a hard counter to shield stacking. Next time I fight a sorc, I'll remember to major defile his shields



IMO any sorc who thinks Templars have a hard counter like Total Dark are insanely bad at their class and any sorc who doesn't realize that curse+crushing shock+streaking in with dawnbreaker+mages fury is going to destroy a DK who spams wings is not in their right mind. Remember that wings cost 3410 magicka and their heal costs even more. DK's can't spam them unlike sorc shields so if you pressure them enough they will fold

An MDK with vampire, reactive heavy, mist form, bloodspawn and talons/fossil spam isn't going to die easily to freaking force pulse and curse, even with the occasional DBoS.

Edit: oops, I forgot the 2K damage you'll take from streak...

Firerock2

Yes

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

mSorc is totally out of control this patch, half of PC EU Cyrodiil jumped already on the bandwagon. Raw damage, pressure uptime and shield stacking together makes it THE best xv1 class by far and still incredibly strong in 1v1, while still being a potent negate/destro ult bot for zerg settings.

There is no other class who can burst as frequent and as dangerous as a mSorc with so much uncounterable damage, for very little effort (this patch, hi haunting and destro ult). Everything in your average mSorcs arsenal has the potential to hit incredibly hard and lines up far too easy (curse, frags, wrath explosion, fire heavies and last but not least destro ult).

It was once an art to line up burst well with mSorc, now you have to be very unfortunate to not just burst people by accident.

Considering that you stated that magsorc used to be nonthreatening or flatout free ap for you.
Does magsorc really overperform or is it just more competetive now?

I don´t know many people that consider magsorc actually strong for 1v1 if they utilize a build not centered around pets.

Derra, come on, we didn`t have a bunch of new compeitive players streaming in or such. I observe the people I play against. I see what they do, how they play and base my judgement on that. But thanks for bringing those isolated words that have been said with a lot of context here to prove... what exactly?

Those very same people I was talking about still do the same mistakes while playing, release frag without crisp timing, refresh curse a little too early, waste ressources when they shouldn`t, play sub-optimal - but those guys now became a threat, while still being not very talented players. They didn`t become better, the only difference now is, that they can accidentially nuke you in one cc-break. I mean, with half of the skills being fire-and-forget its rather difficult to not line up at least some of those heavy hitters from time to time. Carried by absurd amounts of uncounterable damage for minimal amounts of button clicks. So, not only is mSorc still overperforming in the defensive area (shield stacking), it is now as disgusting offensive wise. And if you don`t want to have any weakness at all - slap on that skeleton.

I actually really wonder about your strawman question style. You agreed with me several times in discussions that mSorc was in a very good spot balancing wise last patch. I`ll pretend you are asking a serious question, despite me having that answered to you in detail ingame, when was it we whispered last time, few days ago? I mean, are you serious? Yeah, I obviously think they are, indeed, severly overperforming in 3 aspects: 1) raw output of damage with lack of counters against it, 2) pressure uptime due to braindead easy haunting, destro and wrath play and 3) shield stacking (harness and skeleton, or its buff application, are the most pressing issues moreso than the actual number or mechanic in regards to 3)).

How is that an easier than DK or NB or Templar?

Imo mDK and mTemp are right on par with Sorcs. I don't see Sorcs doing massively more damage than mTemps or mDKs. I don't see the same survivability as a mTemp. I just don't see a difference in overall gameplay.

You must play on CP because on No CP mTemps hit for nothing while mSorcs can burst you at 70% of your health even if you wear full heavy. They do nowhere near the same damage and the sustain of sorcs is far above any DK or Templar' s. Maybe it's a L2P issue that separates the casual sorc compared to those who really make their class shine

Minalan wrote: »

The vast majority of players here are COMPLETELY unqualified to comment on class or build balance.

They have no idea WHY they are getting ONE SHOT. HOW they are constantly ROOTED or CC'ed. They have NO idea how to make a BUILD that synergizes with their PASSIVES. They cannot DEFEND themselves, or build for DAMAGE MITIGATION and SUSTAIN. They accuse other players of CHEATING or HACKING when the lose, because they have a poor grasp of MECHANICS and GAME PLAY. Then they respawn here to demand nerfs.

Meanwhile the people who do understand the game and know how to solve the balance issues like @Derra get drowned out by the huge sack of crying potatoes. Or they're like @Thelon and just sick of arguing with taters day in an out and don't post at all.

What an incredibly biased statement. I guess I should have expected that though going into any nerf X thread. Classic naive realism.

We had one nightblade with 4K weapon damage and 15K health complaining about being killed constantly, so we helped him with his build.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka sorcerers always using hurricane on him.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka Sorcs using Magicka nightblade moves on him.

Fact is, you can hard counter a sorc with any class just by changing your build a little. The people who understand this have some decent suggestions to fix the problem. Personally I think it'll be fine next patch if they nerf pirate skeleton along with the sustain changes.

Yes, because there is a hard counter to shield stacking. Next time I fight a sorc, I'll remember to major defile his shields



IMO any sorc who thinks Templars have a hard counter like Total Dark are insanely bad at their class and any sorc who doesn't realize that curse+crushing shock+streaking in with dawnbreaker+mages fury is going to destroy a DK who spams wings is not in their right mind. Remember that wings cost 3410 magicka and their heal costs even more. DK's can't spam them unlike sorc shields so if you pressure them enough they will fold

An MDK with vampire, reactive heavy, mist form, bloodspawn and talons/fossil spam isn't going to die easily to freaking force pulse and curse, even with the occasional DBoS.

Edit: oops, I forgot the 2K damage you'll take from streak...

They won't do any damage either. You shouldn't be dying to a Magdk with that setup and if you are that's not something I think you should advertise on the forums

BTW I'm not expecting you to Insta shot a DK but it's not like wings counters every skill sorcs have and good sorcs work around it. I can teach you a few things in-game if you are on PC NA

Minalan

No

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

mSorc is totally out of control this patch, half of PC EU Cyrodiil jumped already on the bandwagon. Raw damage, pressure uptime and shield stacking together makes it THE best xv1 class by far and still incredibly strong in 1v1, while still being a potent negate/destro ult bot for zerg settings.

There is no other class who can burst as frequent and as dangerous as a mSorc with so much uncounterable damage, for very little effort (this patch, hi haunting and destro ult). Everything in your average mSorcs arsenal has the potential to hit incredibly hard and lines up far too easy (curse, frags, wrath explosion, fire heavies and last but not least destro ult).

It was once an art to line up burst well with mSorc, now you have to be very unfortunate to not just burst people by accident.

Considering that you stated that magsorc used to be nonthreatening or flatout free ap for you.
Does magsorc really overperform or is it just more competetive now?

I don´t know many people that consider magsorc actually strong for 1v1 if they utilize a build not centered around pets.

Derra, come on, we didn`t have a bunch of new compeitive players streaming in or such. I observe the people I play against. I see what they do, how they play and base my judgement on that. But thanks for bringing those isolated words that have been said with a lot of context here to prove... what exactly?

Those very same people I was talking about still do the same mistakes while playing, release frag without crisp timing, refresh curse a little too early, waste ressources when they shouldn`t, play sub-optimal - but those guys now became a threat, while still being not very talented players. They didn`t become better, the only difference now is, that they can accidentially nuke you in one cc-break. I mean, with half of the skills being fire-and-forget its rather difficult to not line up at least some of those heavy hitters from time to time. Carried by absurd amounts of uncounterable damage for minimal amounts of button clicks. So, not only is mSorc still overperforming in the defensive area (shield stacking), it is now as disgusting offensive wise. And if you don`t want to have any weakness at all - slap on that skeleton.

I actually really wonder about your strawman question style. You agreed with me several times in discussions that mSorc was in a very good spot balancing wise last patch. I`ll pretend you are asking a serious question, despite me having that answered to you in detail ingame, when was it we whispered last time, few days ago? I mean, are you serious? Yeah, I obviously think they are, indeed, severly overperforming in 3 aspects: 1) raw output of damage with lack of counters against it, 2) pressure uptime due to braindead easy haunting, destro and wrath play and 3) shield stacking (harness and skeleton, or its buff application, are the most pressing issues moreso than the actual number or mechanic in regards to 3)).

How is that an easier than DK or NB or Templar?

Imo mDK and mTemp are right on par with Sorcs. I don't see Sorcs doing massively more damage than mTemps or mDKs. I don't see the same survivability as a mTemp. I just don't see a difference in overall gameplay.

You must play on CP because on No CP mTemps hit for nothing while mSorcs can burst you at 70% of your health even if you wear full heavy. They do nowhere near the same damage and the sustain of sorcs is far above any DK or Templar' s. Maybe it's a L2P issue that separates the casual sorc compared to those who really make their class shine

Minalan wrote: »

The vast majority of players here are COMPLETELY unqualified to comment on class or build balance.

They have no idea WHY they are getting ONE SHOT. HOW they are constantly ROOTED or CC'ed. They have NO idea how to make a BUILD that synergizes with their PASSIVES. They cannot DEFEND themselves, or build for DAMAGE MITIGATION and SUSTAIN. They accuse other players of CHEATING or HACKING when the lose, because they have a poor grasp of MECHANICS and GAME PLAY. Then they respawn here to demand nerfs.

Meanwhile the people who do understand the game and know how to solve the balance issues like @Derra get drowned out by the huge sack of crying potatoes. Or they're like @Thelon and just sick of arguing with taters day in an out and don't post at all.

What an incredibly biased statement. I guess I should have expected that though going into any nerf X thread. Classic naive realism.

We had one nightblade with 4K weapon damage and 15K health complaining about being killed constantly, so we helped him with his build.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka sorcerers always using hurricane on him.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka Sorcs using Magicka nightblade moves on him.

Fact is, you can hard counter a sorc with any class just by changing your build a little. The people who understand this have some decent suggestions to fix the problem. Personally I think it'll be fine next patch if they nerf pirate skeleton along with the sustain changes.

Yes, because there is a hard counter to shield stacking. Next time I fight a sorc, I'll remember to major defile his shields



IMO any sorc who thinks Templars have a hard counter like Total Dark are insanely bad at their class and any sorc who doesn't realize that curse+crushing shock+streaking in with dawnbreaker+mages fury is going to destroy a DK who spams wings is not in their right mind. Remember that wings cost 3410 magicka and their heal costs even more. DK's can't spam them unlike sorc shields so if you pressure them enough they will fold

An MDK with vampire, reactive heavy, mist form, bloodspawn and talons/fossil spam isn't going to die easily to freaking force pulse and curse, even with the occasional DBoS.

Edit: oops, I forgot the 2K damage you'll take from streak...

They won't do any damage either. You shouldn't be dying to a Magdk with that setup and if you are that's not something I think you should advertise on the forums

BTW I'm not expecting you to Insta shot a DK but it's not like wings counters every skill sorcs have and good sorcs work around it. I can teach you a few things in-game if you are on PC NA

My point is that it's a stalemate between the two. MDK is death by a thousand cuts, a straight sustain fight. If both a sorc and an MDK use a cost poison, it's anyone's game.

Yes, I did lose a duel once to a good friend using skoria proc and leap. But then I was playing around with vampire at the time (I don't ever run vampire). I don't know how effective that is if your opponent isn't, but that's a pretty mean combo if you're taking stage four penalty damage.

Firerock2

Yes

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

mSorc is totally out of control this patch, half of PC EU Cyrodiil jumped already on the bandwagon. Raw damage, pressure uptime and shield stacking together makes it THE best xv1 class by far and still incredibly strong in 1v1, while still being a potent negate/destro ult bot for zerg settings.

There is no other class who can burst as frequent and as dangerous as a mSorc with so much uncounterable damage, for very little effort (this patch, hi haunting and destro ult). Everything in your average mSorcs arsenal has the potential to hit incredibly hard and lines up far too easy (curse, frags, wrath explosion, fire heavies and last but not least destro ult).

It was once an art to line up burst well with mSorc, now you have to be very unfortunate to not just burst people by accident.

Considering that you stated that magsorc used to be nonthreatening or flatout free ap for you.
Does magsorc really overperform or is it just more competetive now?

I don´t know many people that consider magsorc actually strong for 1v1 if they utilize a build not centered around pets.

Derra, come on, we didn`t have a bunch of new compeitive players streaming in or such. I observe the people I play against. I see what they do, how they play and base my judgement on that. But thanks for bringing those isolated words that have been said with a lot of context here to prove... what exactly?

Those very same people I was talking about still do the same mistakes while playing, release frag without crisp timing, refresh curse a little too early, waste ressources when they shouldn`t, play sub-optimal - but those guys now became a threat, while still being not very talented players. They didn`t become better, the only difference now is, that they can accidentially nuke you in one cc-break. I mean, with half of the skills being fire-and-forget its rather difficult to not line up at least some of those heavy hitters from time to time. Carried by absurd amounts of uncounterable damage for minimal amounts of button clicks. So, not only is mSorc still overperforming in the defensive area (shield stacking), it is now as disgusting offensive wise. And if you don`t want to have any weakness at all - slap on that skeleton.

I actually really wonder about your strawman question style. You agreed with me several times in discussions that mSorc was in a very good spot balancing wise last patch. I`ll pretend you are asking a serious question, despite me having that answered to you in detail ingame, when was it we whispered last time, few days ago? I mean, are you serious? Yeah, I obviously think they are, indeed, severly overperforming in 3 aspects: 1) raw output of damage with lack of counters against it, 2) pressure uptime due to braindead easy haunting, destro and wrath play and 3) shield stacking (harness and skeleton, or its buff application, are the most pressing issues moreso than the actual number or mechanic in regards to 3)).

How is that an easier than DK or NB or Templar?

Imo mDK and mTemp are right on par with Sorcs. I don't see Sorcs doing massively more damage than mTemps or mDKs. I don't see the same survivability as a mTemp. I just don't see a difference in overall gameplay.

You must play on CP because on No CP mTemps hit for nothing while mSorcs can burst you at 70% of your health even if you wear full heavy. They do nowhere near the same damage and the sustain of sorcs is far above any DK or Templar' s. Maybe it's a L2P issue that separates the casual sorc compared to those who really make their class shine

Minalan wrote: »

The vast majority of players here are COMPLETELY unqualified to comment on class or build balance.

They have no idea WHY they are getting ONE SHOT. HOW they are constantly ROOTED or CC'ed. They have NO idea how to make a BUILD that synergizes with their PASSIVES. They cannot DEFEND themselves, or build for DAMAGE MITIGATION and SUSTAIN. They accuse other players of CHEATING or HACKING when the lose, because they have a poor grasp of MECHANICS and GAME PLAY. Then they respawn here to demand nerfs.

Meanwhile the people who do understand the game and know how to solve the balance issues like @Derra get drowned out by the huge sack of crying potatoes. Or they're like @Thelon and just sick of arguing with taters day in an out and don't post at all.

What an incredibly biased statement. I guess I should have expected that though going into any nerf X thread. Classic naive realism.

We had one nightblade with 4K weapon damage and 15K health complaining about being killed constantly, so we helped him with his build.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka sorcerers always using hurricane on him.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka Sorcs using Magicka nightblade moves on him.

Fact is, you can hard counter a sorc with any class just by changing your build a little. The people who understand this have some decent suggestions to fix the problem. Personally I think it'll be fine next patch if they nerf pirate skeleton along with the sustain changes.

Yes, because there is a hard counter to shield stacking. Next time I fight a sorc, I'll remember to major defile his shields



IMO any sorc who thinks Templars have a hard counter like Total Dark are insanely bad at their class and any sorc who doesn't realize that curse+crushing shock+streaking in with dawnbreaker+mages fury is going to destroy a DK who spams wings is not in their right mind. Remember that wings cost 3410 magicka and their heal costs even more. DK's can't spam them unlike sorc shields so if you pressure them enough they will fold

An MDK with vampire, reactive heavy, mist form, bloodspawn and talons/fossil spam isn't going to die easily to freaking force pulse and curse, even with the occasional DBoS.

Edit: oops, I forgot the 2K damage you'll take from streak...

They won't do any damage either. You shouldn't be dying to a Magdk with that setup and if you are that's not something I think you should advertise on the forums

BTW I'm not expecting you to Insta shot a DK but it's not like wings counters every skill sorcs have and good sorcs work around it. I can teach you a few things in-game if you are on PC NA

My point is that it's a stalemate between the two. MDK is death by a thousand cuts, a straight sustain fight. If both a sorc and an MDK use a cost poison, it's anyone's game.

Yes, I did lose a duel once to a good friend using skoria proc and leap. But then I was playing around with vampire at the time (I don't ever run vampire). I don't know how effective that is if your opponent isn't, but that's a pretty mean combo if you're taking stage four penalty damage.

I t isn't a stalemate though. Magdk dps is nothing compared to the burst potential of sorcs. If for some reason you both have crappy damage the sorc will still be able to out sustain the dk.

The tankiness that sorcs achieve just by stacking their max magical makes it almost impossible to burst down a good sorc.

Their skills cost less, they do more damage, and their survivability is much higher. It's not equal

Have you played a class other than sorc?

Minalan

No

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

mSorc is totally out of control this patch, half of PC EU Cyrodiil jumped already on the bandwagon. Raw damage, pressure uptime and shield stacking together makes it THE best xv1 class by far and still incredibly strong in 1v1, while still being a potent negate/destro ult bot for zerg settings.

There is no other class who can burst as frequent and as dangerous as a mSorc with so much uncounterable damage, for very little effort (this patch, hi haunting and destro ult). Everything in your average mSorcs arsenal has the potential to hit incredibly hard and lines up far too easy (curse, frags, wrath explosion, fire heavies and last but not least destro ult).

It was once an art to line up burst well with mSorc, now you have to be very unfortunate to not just burst people by accident.

Considering that you stated that magsorc used to be nonthreatening or flatout free ap for you.
Does magsorc really overperform or is it just more competetive now?

I don´t know many people that consider magsorc actually strong for 1v1 if they utilize a build not centered around pets.

Derra, come on, we didn`t have a bunch of new compeitive players streaming in or such. I observe the people I play against. I see what they do, how they play and base my judgement on that. But thanks for bringing those isolated words that have been said with a lot of context here to prove... what exactly?

Those very same people I was talking about still do the same mistakes while playing, release frag without crisp timing, refresh curse a little too early, waste ressources when they shouldn`t, play sub-optimal - but those guys now became a threat, while still being not very talented players. They didn`t become better, the only difference now is, that they can accidentially nuke you in one cc-break. I mean, with half of the skills being fire-and-forget its rather difficult to not line up at least some of those heavy hitters from time to time. Carried by absurd amounts of uncounterable damage for minimal amounts of button clicks. So, not only is mSorc still overperforming in the defensive area (shield stacking), it is now as disgusting offensive wise. And if you don`t want to have any weakness at all - slap on that skeleton.

I actually really wonder about your strawman question style. You agreed with me several times in discussions that mSorc was in a very good spot balancing wise last patch. I`ll pretend you are asking a serious question, despite me having that answered to you in detail ingame, when was it we whispered last time, few days ago? I mean, are you serious? Yeah, I obviously think they are, indeed, severly overperforming in 3 aspects: 1) raw output of damage with lack of counters against it, 2) pressure uptime due to braindead easy haunting, destro and wrath play and 3) shield stacking (harness and skeleton, or its buff application, are the most pressing issues moreso than the actual number or mechanic in regards to 3)).

How is that an easier than DK or NB or Templar?

Imo mDK and mTemp are right on par with Sorcs. I don't see Sorcs doing massively more damage than mTemps or mDKs. I don't see the same survivability as a mTemp. I just don't see a difference in overall gameplay.

You must play on CP because on No CP mTemps hit for nothing while mSorcs can burst you at 70% of your health even if you wear full heavy. They do nowhere near the same damage and the sustain of sorcs is far above any DK or Templar' s. Maybe it's a L2P issue that separates the casual sorc compared to those who really make their class shine

Minalan wrote: »

The vast majority of players here are COMPLETELY unqualified to comment on class or build balance.

They have no idea WHY they are getting ONE SHOT. HOW they are constantly ROOTED or CC'ed. They have NO idea how to make a BUILD that synergizes with their PASSIVES. They cannot DEFEND themselves, or build for DAMAGE MITIGATION and SUSTAIN. They accuse other players of CHEATING or HACKING when the lose, because they have a poor grasp of MECHANICS and GAME PLAY. Then they respawn here to demand nerfs.

Meanwhile the people who do understand the game and know how to solve the balance issues like @Derra get drowned out by the huge sack of crying potatoes. Or they're like @Thelon and just sick of arguing with taters day in an out and don't post at all.

What an incredibly biased statement. I guess I should have expected that though going into any nerf X thread. Classic naive realism.

We had one nightblade with 4K weapon damage and 15K health complaining about being killed constantly, so we helped him with his build.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka sorcerers always using hurricane on him.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka Sorcs using Magicka nightblade moves on him.

Fact is, you can hard counter a sorc with any class just by changing your build a little. The people who understand this have some decent suggestions to fix the problem. Personally I think it'll be fine next patch if they nerf pirate skeleton along with the sustain changes.

Yes, because there is a hard counter to shield stacking. Next time I fight a sorc, I'll remember to major defile his shields



IMO any sorc who thinks Templars have a hard counter like Total Dark are insanely bad at their class and any sorc who doesn't realize that curse+crushing shock+streaking in with dawnbreaker+mages fury is going to destroy a DK who spams wings is not in their right mind. Remember that wings cost 3410 magicka and their heal costs even more. DK's can't spam them unlike sorc shields so if you pressure them enough they will fold

An MDK with vampire, reactive heavy, mist form, bloodspawn and talons/fossil spam isn't going to die easily to freaking force pulse and curse, even with the occasional DBoS.

Edit: oops, I forgot the 2K damage you'll take from streak...

They won't do any damage either. You shouldn't be dying to a Magdk with that setup and if you are that's not something I think you should advertise on the forums

BTW I'm not expecting you to Insta shot a DK but it's not like wings counters every skill sorcs have and good sorcs work around it. I can teach you a few things in-game if you are on PC NA

My point is that it's a stalemate between the two. MDK is death by a thousand cuts, a straight sustain fight. If both a sorc and an MDK use a cost poison, it's anyone's game.

Yes, I did lose a duel once to a good friend using skoria proc and leap. But then I was playing around with vampire at the time (I don't ever run vampire). I don't know how effective that is if your opponent isn't, but that's a pretty mean combo if you're taking stage four penalty damage.

I t isn't a stalemate though. Magdk dps is nothing compared to the burst potential of sorcs. If for some reason you both have crappy damage the sorc will still be able to out sustain the dk.

The tankiness that sorcs achieve just by stacking their max magical makes it almost impossible to burst down a good sorc.

Their skills cost less, they do more damage, and their survivability is much higher. It's not equal

Have you played a class other than sorc?

Stamblade, the other burst class. I suppose that doesn't help much

There are dueling MDK's that can last just as long as a sorc 1v1. Head over to the undaunted enclave in Wayrest.

Firerock2

Yes

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

mSorc is totally out of control this patch, half of PC EU Cyrodiil jumped already on the bandwagon. Raw damage, pressure uptime and shield stacking together makes it THE best xv1 class by far and still incredibly strong in 1v1, while still being a potent negate/destro ult bot for zerg settings.

There is no other class who can burst as frequent and as dangerous as a mSorc with so much uncounterable damage, for very little effort (this patch, hi haunting and destro ult). Everything in your average mSorcs arsenal has the potential to hit incredibly hard and lines up far too easy (curse, frags, wrath explosion, fire heavies and last but not least destro ult).

It was once an art to line up burst well with mSorc, now you have to be very unfortunate to not just burst people by accident.

Considering that you stated that magsorc used to be nonthreatening or flatout free ap for you.
Does magsorc really overperform or is it just more competetive now?

I don´t know many people that consider magsorc actually strong for 1v1 if they utilize a build not centered around pets.

Derra, come on, we didn`t have a bunch of new compeitive players streaming in or such. I observe the people I play against. I see what they do, how they play and base my judgement on that. But thanks for bringing those isolated words that have been said with a lot of context here to prove... what exactly?

Those very same people I was talking about still do the same mistakes while playing, release frag without crisp timing, refresh curse a little too early, waste ressources when they shouldn`t, play sub-optimal - but those guys now became a threat, while still being not very talented players. They didn`t become better, the only difference now is, that they can accidentially nuke you in one cc-break. I mean, with half of the skills being fire-and-forget its rather difficult to not line up at least some of those heavy hitters from time to time. Carried by absurd amounts of uncounterable damage for minimal amounts of button clicks. So, not only is mSorc still overperforming in the defensive area (shield stacking), it is now as disgusting offensive wise. And if you don`t want to have any weakness at all - slap on that skeleton.

I actually really wonder about your strawman question style. You agreed with me several times in discussions that mSorc was in a very good spot balancing wise last patch. I`ll pretend you are asking a serious question, despite me having that answered to you in detail ingame, when was it we whispered last time, few days ago? I mean, are you serious? Yeah, I obviously think they are, indeed, severly overperforming in 3 aspects: 1) raw output of damage with lack of counters against it, 2) pressure uptime due to braindead easy haunting, destro and wrath play and 3) shield stacking (harness and skeleton, or its buff application, are the most pressing issues moreso than the actual number or mechanic in regards to 3)).

How is that an easier than DK or NB or Templar?

Imo mDK and mTemp are right on par with Sorcs. I don't see Sorcs doing massively more damage than mTemps or mDKs. I don't see the same survivability as a mTemp. I just don't see a difference in overall gameplay.

You must play on CP because on No CP mTemps hit for nothing while mSorcs can burst you at 70% of your health even if you wear full heavy. They do nowhere near the same damage and the sustain of sorcs is far above any DK or Templar' s. Maybe it's a L2P issue that separates the casual sorc compared to those who really make their class shine

Minalan wrote: »

The vast majority of players here are COMPLETELY unqualified to comment on class or build balance.

They have no idea WHY they are getting ONE SHOT. HOW they are constantly ROOTED or CC'ed. They have NO idea how to make a BUILD that synergizes with their PASSIVES. They cannot DEFEND themselves, or build for DAMAGE MITIGATION and SUSTAIN. They accuse other players of CHEATING or HACKING when the lose, because they have a poor grasp of MECHANICS and GAME PLAY. Then they respawn here to demand nerfs.

Meanwhile the people who do understand the game and know how to solve the balance issues like @Derra get drowned out by the huge sack of crying potatoes. Or they're like @Thelon and just sick of arguing with taters day in an out and don't post at all.

What an incredibly biased statement. I guess I should have expected that though going into any nerf X thread. Classic naive realism.

We had one nightblade with 4K weapon damage and 15K health complaining about being killed constantly, so we helped him with his build.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka sorcerers always using hurricane on him.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka Sorcs using Magicka nightblade moves on him.

Fact is, you can hard counter a sorc with any class just by changing your build a little. The people who understand this have some decent suggestions to fix the problem. Personally I think it'll be fine next patch if they nerf pirate skeleton along with the sustain changes.

Yes, because there is a hard counter to shield stacking. Next time I fight a sorc, I'll remember to major defile his shields



IMO any sorc who thinks Templars have a hard counter like Total Dark are insanely bad at their class and any sorc who doesn't realize that curse+crushing shock+streaking in with dawnbreaker+mages fury is going to destroy a DK who spams wings is not in their right mind. Remember that wings cost 3410 magicka and their heal costs even more. DK's can't spam them unlike sorc shields so if you pressure them enough they will fold

An MDK with vampire, reactive heavy, mist form, bloodspawn and talons/fossil spam isn't going to die easily to freaking force pulse and curse, even with the occasional DBoS.

Edit: oops, I forgot the 2K damage you'll take from streak...

They won't do any damage either. You shouldn't be dying to a Magdk with that setup and if you are that's not something I think you should advertise on the forums

BTW I'm not expecting you to Insta shot a DK but it's not like wings counters every skill sorcs have and good sorcs work around it. I can teach you a few things in-game if you are on PC NA

My point is that it's a stalemate between the two. MDK is death by a thousand cuts, a straight sustain fight. If both a sorc and an MDK use a cost poison, it's anyone's game.

Yes, I did lose a duel once to a good friend using skoria proc and leap. But then I was playing around with vampire at the time (I don't ever run vampire). I don't know how effective that is if your opponent isn't, but that's a pretty mean combo if you're taking stage four penalty damage.

I t isn't a stalemate though. Magdk dps is nothing compared to the burst potential of sorcs. If for some reason you both have crappy damage the sorc will still be able to out sustain the dk.

The tankiness that sorcs achieve just by stacking their max magical makes it almost impossible to burst down a good sorc.

Their skills cost less, they do more damage, and their survivability is much higher. It's not equal

Have you played a class other than sorc?

Stamblade, the other burst class. I suppose that doesn't help much

There are dueling MDK's that can last just as long as a sorc 1v1. Head over to the undaunted enclave in Wayrest.

I'm sure there are, I'm not saying that no Magdk has ever beaten a magsorc. What I'm saying is that sorcs have a clear advantage when it comes to sustain, damage, and tankiness.

A lot of people complain about infinite sustain builds and troll kings. Magicka Sorcerers are the magicka equivalent in my opinion. You can get them low but they don't go down and they never run out of resources. That being said a bad player is always conquerable.

I go to wayrest all the time, however I find dueling in Cyro more enjoyable due to the fact that ZOS never added a no CP dueling option and I'm not about to spend 3k every time I want to duel.

In my opinion Magsorcs need to be brought down a notch and their regen passives need a nerf. Along with that implosion needs to go and haunting curse could do SLIGHTLY less damage. I've been getting hit for 7-9k haunting curses in Cyro lately and I think that's a little high. As for implosion, an execute that can insta kill at 20% is just dumb, at least you can react to radiant. In a CP duel I got hit for a 6.6k implosion which is asinine for just being a passive.

hassubhai

No

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

mSorc is totally out of control this patch, half of PC EU Cyrodiil jumped already on the bandwagon. Raw damage, pressure uptime and shield stacking together makes it THE best xv1 class by far and still incredibly strong in 1v1, while still being a potent negate/destro ult bot for zerg settings.

There is no other class who can burst as frequent and as dangerous as a mSorc with so much uncounterable damage, for very little effort (this patch, hi haunting and destro ult). Everything in your average mSorcs arsenal has the potential to hit incredibly hard and lines up far too easy (curse, frags, wrath explosion, fire heavies and last but not least destro ult).

It was once an art to line up burst well with mSorc, now you have to be very unfortunate to not just burst people by accident.

Considering that you stated that magsorc used to be nonthreatening or flatout free ap for you.
Does magsorc really overperform or is it just more competetive now?

I don´t know many people that consider magsorc actually strong for 1v1 if they utilize a build not centered around pets.

Derra, come on, we didn`t have a bunch of new compeitive players streaming in or such. I observe the people I play against. I see what they do, how they play and base my judgement on that. But thanks for bringing those isolated words that have been said with a lot of context here to prove... what exactly?

Those very same people I was talking about still do the same mistakes while playing, release frag without crisp timing, refresh curse a little too early, waste ressources when they shouldn`t, play sub-optimal - but those guys now became a threat, while still being not very talented players. They didn`t become better, the only difference now is, that they can accidentially nuke you in one cc-break. I mean, with half of the skills being fire-and-forget its rather difficult to not line up at least some of those heavy hitters from time to time. Carried by absurd amounts of uncounterable damage for minimal amounts of button clicks. So, not only is mSorc still overperforming in the defensive area (shield stacking), it is now as disgusting offensive wise. And if you don`t want to have any weakness at all - slap on that skeleton.

I actually really wonder about your strawman question style. You agreed with me several times in discussions that mSorc was in a very good spot balancing wise last patch. I`ll pretend you are asking a serious question, despite me having that answered to you in detail ingame, when was it we whispered last time, few days ago? I mean, are you serious? Yeah, I obviously think they are, indeed, severly overperforming in 3 aspects: 1) raw output of damage with lack of counters against it, 2) pressure uptime due to braindead easy haunting, destro and wrath play and 3) shield stacking (harness and skeleton, or its buff application, are the most pressing issues moreso than the actual number or mechanic in regards to 3)).

How is that an easier than DK or NB or Templar?

Imo mDK and mTemp are right on par with Sorcs. I don't see Sorcs doing massively more damage than mTemps or mDKs. I don't see the same survivability as a mTemp. I just don't see a difference in overall gameplay.

You must play on CP because on No CP mTemps hit for nothing while mSorcs can burst you at 70% of your health even if you wear full heavy. They do nowhere near the same damage and the sustain of sorcs is far above any DK or Templar' s. Maybe it's a L2P issue that separates the casual sorc compared to those who really make their class shine

Minalan wrote: »

The vast majority of players here are COMPLETELY unqualified to comment on class or build balance.

They have no idea WHY they are getting ONE SHOT. HOW they are constantly ROOTED or CC'ed. They have NO idea how to make a BUILD that synergizes with their PASSIVES. They cannot DEFEND themselves, or build for DAMAGE MITIGATION and SUSTAIN. They accuse other players of CHEATING or HACKING when the lose, because they have a poor grasp of MECHANICS and GAME PLAY. Then they respawn here to demand nerfs.

Meanwhile the people who do understand the game and know how to solve the balance issues like @Derra get drowned out by the huge sack of crying potatoes. Or they're like @Thelon and just sick of arguing with taters day in an out and don't post at all.

What an incredibly biased statement. I guess I should have expected that though going into any nerf X thread. Classic naive realism.

We had one nightblade with 4K weapon damage and 15K health complaining about being killed constantly, so we helped him with his build.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka sorcerers always using hurricane on him.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka Sorcs using Magicka nightblade moves on him.

Fact is, you can hard counter a sorc with any class just by changing your build a little. The people who understand this have some decent suggestions to fix the problem. Personally I think it'll be fine next patch if they nerf pirate skeleton along with the sustain changes.

Yes, because there is a hard counter to shield stacking. Next time I fight a sorc, I'll remember to major defile his shields



IMO any sorc who thinks Templars have a hard counter like Total Dark are insanely bad at their class and any sorc who doesn't realize that curse+crushing shock+streaking in with dawnbreaker+mages fury is going to destroy a DK who spams wings is not in their right mind. Remember that wings cost 3410 magicka and their heal costs even more. DK's can't spam them unlike sorc shields so if you pressure them enough they will fold

An MDK with vampire, reactive heavy, mist form, bloodspawn and talons/fossil spam isn't going to die easily to freaking force pulse and curse, even with the occasional DBoS.

Edit: oops, I forgot the 2K damage you'll take from streak...

They won't do any damage either. You shouldn't be dying to a Magdk with that setup and if you are that's not something I think you should advertise on the forums

BTW I'm not expecting you to Insta shot a DK but it's not like wings counters every skill sorcs have and good sorcs work around it. I can teach you a few things in-game if you are on PC NA

My point is that it's a stalemate between the two. MDK is death by a thousand cuts, a straight sustain fight. If both a sorc and an MDK use a cost poison, it's anyone's game.

Yes, I did lose a duel once to a good friend using skoria proc and leap. But then I was playing around with vampire at the time (I don't ever run vampire). I don't know how effective that is if your opponent isn't, but that's a pretty mean combo if you're taking stage four penalty damage.

I t isn't a stalemate though. Magdk dps is nothing compared to the burst potential of sorcs. If for some reason you both have crappy damage the sorc will still be able to out sustain the dk.

The tankiness that sorcs achieve just by stacking their max magical makes it almost impossible to burst down a good sorc.

Their skills cost less, they do more damage, and their survivability is much higher. It's not equal

Have you played a class other than sorc?

Stamblade, the other burst class. I suppose that doesn't help much

There are dueling MDK's that can last just as long as a sorc 1v1. Head over to the undaunted enclave in Wayrest.

I'm sure there are, I'm not saying that no Magdk has ever beaten a magsorc. What I'm saying is that sorcs have a clear advantage when it comes to sustain, damage, and tankiness.

A lot of people complain about infinite sustain builds and troll kings. Magicka Sorcerers are the magicka equivalent in my opinion. You can get them low but they don't go down and they never run out of resources. That being said a bad player is always conquerable.

I go to wayrest all the time, however I find dueling in Cyro more enjoyable due to the fact that ZOS never added a no CP dueling option and I'm not about to spend 3k every time I want to duel.

In my opinion Magsorcs need to be brought down a notch and their regen passives need a nerf. Along with that implosion needs to go and haunting curse could do SLIGHTLY less damage. I've been getting hit for 7-9k haunting curses in Cyro lately and I think that's a little high. As for implosion, an execute that can insta kill at 20% is just dumb, at least you can react to radiant. In a CP duel I got hit for a 6.6k implosion which is asinine for just being a passive.

Implosion isnt the execute

Firerock2

Yes

hassubhai wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

mSorc is totally out of control this patch, half of PC EU Cyrodiil jumped already on the bandwagon. Raw damage, pressure uptime and shield stacking together makes it THE best xv1 class by far and still incredibly strong in 1v1, while still being a potent negate/destro ult bot for zerg settings.

There is no other class who can burst as frequent and as dangerous as a mSorc with so much uncounterable damage, for very little effort (this patch, hi haunting and destro ult). Everything in your average mSorcs arsenal has the potential to hit incredibly hard and lines up far too easy (curse, frags, wrath explosion, fire heavies and last but not least destro ult).

It was once an art to line up burst well with mSorc, now you have to be very unfortunate to not just burst people by accident.

Considering that you stated that magsorc used to be nonthreatening or flatout free ap for you.
Does magsorc really overperform or is it just more competetive now?

I don´t know many people that consider magsorc actually strong for 1v1 if they utilize a build not centered around pets.

Derra, come on, we didn`t have a bunch of new compeitive players streaming in or such. I observe the people I play against. I see what they do, how they play and base my judgement on that. But thanks for bringing those isolated words that have been said with a lot of context here to prove... what exactly?

Those very same people I was talking about still do the same mistakes while playing, release frag without crisp timing, refresh curse a little too early, waste ressources when they shouldn`t, play sub-optimal - but those guys now became a threat, while still being not very talented players. They didn`t become better, the only difference now is, that they can accidentially nuke you in one cc-break. I mean, with half of the skills being fire-and-forget its rather difficult to not line up at least some of those heavy hitters from time to time. Carried by absurd amounts of uncounterable damage for minimal amounts of button clicks. So, not only is mSorc still overperforming in the defensive area (shield stacking), it is now as disgusting offensive wise. And if you don`t want to have any weakness at all - slap on that skeleton.

I actually really wonder about your strawman question style. You agreed with me several times in discussions that mSorc was in a very good spot balancing wise last patch. I`ll pretend you are asking a serious question, despite me having that answered to you in detail ingame, when was it we whispered last time, few days ago? I mean, are you serious? Yeah, I obviously think they are, indeed, severly overperforming in 3 aspects: 1) raw output of damage with lack of counters against it, 2) pressure uptime due to braindead easy haunting, destro and wrath play and 3) shield stacking (harness and skeleton, or its buff application, are the most pressing issues moreso than the actual number or mechanic in regards to 3)).

How is that an easier than DK or NB or Templar?

Imo mDK and mTemp are right on par with Sorcs. I don't see Sorcs doing massively more damage than mTemps or mDKs. I don't see the same survivability as a mTemp. I just don't see a difference in overall gameplay.

You must play on CP because on No CP mTemps hit for nothing while mSorcs can burst you at 70% of your health even if you wear full heavy. They do nowhere near the same damage and the sustain of sorcs is far above any DK or Templar' s. Maybe it's a L2P issue that separates the casual sorc compared to those who really make their class shine

Minalan wrote: »

The vast majority of players here are COMPLETELY unqualified to comment on class or build balance.

They have no idea WHY they are getting ONE SHOT. HOW they are constantly ROOTED or CC'ed. They have NO idea how to make a BUILD that synergizes with their PASSIVES. They cannot DEFEND themselves, or build for DAMAGE MITIGATION and SUSTAIN. They accuse other players of CHEATING or HACKING when the lose, because they have a poor grasp of MECHANICS and GAME PLAY. Then they respawn here to demand nerfs.

Meanwhile the people who do understand the game and know how to solve the balance issues like @Derra get drowned out by the huge sack of crying potatoes. Or they're like @Thelon and just sick of arguing with taters day in an out and don't post at all.

What an incredibly biased statement. I guess I should have expected that though going into any nerf X thread. Classic naive realism.

We had one nightblade with 4K weapon damage and 15K health complaining about being killed constantly, so we helped him with his build.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka sorcerers always using hurricane on him.

We had another guy complaining about Magicka Sorcs using Magicka nightblade moves on him.

Fact is, you can hard counter a sorc with any class just by changing your build a little. The people who understand this have some decent suggestions to fix the problem. Personally I think it'll be fine next patch if they nerf pirate skeleton along with the sustain changes.

Yes, because there is a hard counter to shield stacking. Next time I fight a sorc, I'll remember to major defile his shields



IMO any sorc who thinks Templars have a hard counter like Total Dark are insanely bad at their class and any sorc who doesn't realize that curse+crushing shock+streaking in with dawnbreaker+mages fury is going to destroy a DK who spams wings is not in their right mind. Remember that wings cost 3410 magicka and their heal costs even more. DK's can't spam them unlike sorc shields so if you pressure them enough they will fold

An MDK with vampire, reactive heavy, mist form, bloodspawn and talons/fossil spam isn't going to die easily to freaking force pulse and curse, even with the occasional DBoS.

Edit: oops, I forgot the 2K damage you'll take from streak...

They won't do any damage either. You shouldn't be dying to a Magdk with that setup and if you are that's not something I think you should advertise on the forums

BTW I'm not expecting you to Insta shot a DK but it's not like wings counters every skill sorcs have and good sorcs work around it. I can teach you a few things in-game if you are on PC NA

My point is that it's a stalemate between the two. MDK is death by a thousand cuts, a straight sustain fight. If both a sorc and an MDK use a cost poison, it's anyone's game.

Yes, I did lose a duel once to a good friend using skoria proc and leap. But then I was playing around with vampire at the time (I don't ever run vampire). I don't know how effective that is if your opponent isn't, but that's a pretty mean combo if you're taking stage four penalty damage.

I t isn't a stalemate though. Magdk dps is nothing compared to the burst potential of sorcs. If for some reason you both have crappy damage the sorc will still be able to out sustain the dk.

The tankiness that sorcs achieve just by stacking their max magical makes it almost impossible to burst down a good sorc.

Their skills cost less, they do more damage, and their survivability is much higher. It's not equal

Have you played a class other than sorc?

Stamblade, the other burst class. I suppose that doesn't help much

There are dueling MDK's that can last just as long as a sorc 1v1. Head over to the undaunted enclave in Wayrest.

I'm sure there are, I'm not saying that no Magdk has ever beaten a magsorc. What I'm saying is that sorcs have a clear advantage when it comes to sustain, damage, and tankiness.

A lot of people complain about infinite sustain builds and troll kings. Magicka Sorcerers are the magicka equivalent in my opinion. You can get them low but they don't go down and they never run out of resources. That being said a bad player is always conquerable.

I go to wayrest all the time, however I find dueling in Cyro more enjoyable due to the fact that ZOS never added a no CP dueling option and I'm not about to spend 3k every time I want to duel.

In my opinion Magsorcs need to be brought down a notch and their regen passives need a nerf. Along with that implosion needs to go and haunting curse could do SLIGHTLY less damage. I've been getting hit for 7-9k haunting curses in Cyro lately and I think that's a little high. As for implosion, an execute that can insta kill at 20% is just dumb, at least you can react to radiant. In a CP duel I got hit for a 6.6k implosion which is asinine for just being a passive.

Implosion isnt the execute

It works similarly to Mage's Fury so yes it is. It's a passive designed as an execute. It can go

GawdSB

Mag Sorc requires zero skill to play. Easy mode in literally everything.