Fixing the Magicka Sorcerer Class

Jsmalls

I cannot ignore it any longer. These forums are plagued with Mag Sorc OP, nerf Sorcs, meta Mag Sorc, etc etc etc.

So what would be ideal for everyone? What on a Sorcerer NEEDS to be addressed?

I'll start.

Damage Shields stacking.

So is the main concern here annulment and hardened ward stacking? Or healing and hardened ward? I don't think it's all 3 because if a Sorcerer stacks all 3 they have about 2 global cooldowns left before they start expiring and they will have spent the last 3 doing no damage, correct me if I'm wrong?

So let's say we added a major and minor ward system, disallowing hardened and annulment to stack. If we do this hardened ward needs to be changed.
Why?
Because that gives every class access to the same shielding capabilities as Mag Sorcs. Dampen=Hardened in almost all senses (10% cost difference?). So unless everyone is okay with making hardened ward a "useless" skill, it'll need to be changed.

Major wards and healing ward stacking? Is this the main cause for concern? This is currently only used by Mag blades and Sorcerers due to lack of burst heals from class skills. Also limits most players to a resto staff. It wouldn't hurt my play style if stacking of these two shields were removed, but it would obliterate most players. I'm not saying it's not possible to adapt, but Sorcs and Magblades would have a hard time.
Disclaimer: As stated I don't use a resto staff, I support them not stacking, but that's because it doesn't affect me.

Damage overall

We'll talk about 4 skills here because that's all Sorcerers have in their Arsenal.

Crystal frags: The staple of being a Sorc. Perhaps overturned with the buff Destro staves recieved, but we're talking 5% or so from being acceptable and OP.
Mechanics of Frags. As a community what problems do you have with this skill. Is their not enough of a visual que for it? Does it travel too fast? Do you find it hard to dodge it block? (Okay I'm being an ass, clearly the skill contains obvious and a large window of counter play to it. Moving on.)

Haunting Curse:
I hear from the community that this skill recieved a BUFF last patch. I would like to hear why they feel this way personally. If a Sorc chooses to let the skill persist for 12 seconds it creates less pressure on you as a player, versus reapplying consistently at 4 seconds. Past this, this ability is now Unmitigatable (by blocking and rolling) but it does give a visual que giving a reaction time and is Purge able. It's considered our "reliable damage". But as a community what would you like to see changed about this ability? Prevention of stacking with other players curses? Counter play such as (insert suggestion here). Give me some ideas.

Daedric Mines:
This skill is very useful in a 1v1 situation but immediately becomes useless in 1vX. It hinders your mobility as a ranged class because it is too expensive to constantly reapply after moving. Would you like the damage toned down? Would you like it to take longer to activate? Would you like less mines on each summon? Once again give me some suggestions.

Endless Fury (execute)

This skill persists for 4 seconds and is an execute with the lowest health % scaling at 20%. The execute damage can be blocked, other than that it usually does just that, executes you. I can see the dilemma with exploding at 20% being aggrevating. So what can we change on this ability? Do we lower the execute status time? Do we lower the execute % even further!?!? We can't remove the status effect because then the execute % would have to be raised upward of 25%+ becoming a mimick of Mag Blades execute (let's keep diversity).

Mobility

Bolt Escape:
I'll be the first to say the nerf didn't make it useless. I love using this ability offensively and defensively. And you can still use it 3 to 4 times without hurting your magicka that much. That being said with the presence and snare effect of gap closers I don't really see this ability would a serious issue. Mag Blades and Sorcerers don't have a house to uphold or tankiness to take advantage of. We NEED mobility. What would you like changed on this ability? I personally think it's okay how it is.

Boundless storm:
Never heard someone says it's OP, I'll skip this.

Resources apply to offense and defense

I completely agree this is an issue in the GAME. Not specific to one class. Spell damage and weapon damage applies to the strength of your heals. Vigor, Rally, BoL, Dragons blood, they ALL scale with your damage resource (both pools). Sorcerers and Mag blades are actually at a disadvantage here because shields scale off of STRICTLY magicka and direct heals scale off of both. And damage scales better with Spell Damage. So by going high spell damage we hurt our defense. Only two classes this effects. So I would like to hear the communities opinion here.

So tell what needs to be changed. Pirate Skeleton needs to be addressed. And maybe infernal guardian. But those are item sets, not classes.

Neloth

Shield staking is fine. Yes, it's strong in 1vs1, especially against magicka builds (if you use harness), but when outnumbered shields are much more useless compared to other defenses like dodge roll or block.

Also, a lot of people here say that they don't have any problems to time the burst when the shields are about to expire. Yes, magsorc can prevent it going to fully defensive mode, but I don't see a problem here, other classes can be invincible too (and require a single button).

Curse buff is a problem only against cloaking NBs in my opinion, and it's really need to be adressed. In other cases 90% of sorcs reapply the curse after the first explosion.

The only OP skill is dark deal/conversion. With Faso build it gives magsorcs infinite sustain (yes, I'll get l2p and interrupt replies here, but some classes, like magNb or magDK, just can't reliably do it).

NBrookus

2 issues with haunting curse:

• There's no counter play if you aren't a templar or have a pocket templar laying down rituals for you. With the rising number of debuffs and negative effects, Efficient Purge is insanely useless for the cost for everyone who isn't a purgebot in a raid. This is why templars howled when they tried to take away Extended Ritual cleansing 5 debuffs, and even then it isn't hard to put more than 5 debuffs on player in a 1v1, let alone group v group.
• When you have a curse on you, you are stuck in combat. You can't stealth up to escape, and now that they fixed the stuck in combat bug, you can't get on your horse even tho the sorc/zerg chasing you can.

And yeah, Pirate Skeleton is stupid. The poison pill in the set is irrelevant to sorcs and also templars who can purge the negative effect.

Firerock2

Remove it

Aziah

To start, they could fix some of the monster sets (i.e. Pirate Skeleton) and abilities scaling off max resource pools. That would affect all classes but get rid of most Sorc complaints. Then specifically for Sorcs, just infinite sustain synergy (not just Deal/Conversion itself but any part of the system that makes it so useful).

Nothing else should be a problem except for maybe the second tick of Haunting Curse.

Waffennacht

Not many players know what it was like.

First off, prior to the updates, not a single move would get to a flappy DK. They blocked Curse and reflected everything else. So they made curse unblockable, well that's cool except you did damage every 3.5 secs and had everything else reflected (including ults)

So they added unreflectable moves, giving sorcs a way to get through reflects. This made non sorcs unhappy.

Shields... the devs themselves said, the point of a sorc and their wards is to be, practically unstoppable while wards up. The idea that a warded sorc is almost immortal is the point. Without them, your a typical sorc is dead.

This was pruor to armor buffs and proc sets ... then they came... making wards even better.

Te community really was in a vast majority favoring a minor major system for wards... they went with a duration change ::shrug::

Then they revamped sets.

Is a mSorc OP? Imo no, however, imo shield stacking is very easy, therefore a lot more players are able to implement the best characteristics of a sorc rather than any other class. Imo

I've been playin other classes since "sorcs are OP" and honestly do not see any significant difference is my over all wins/losses.

thankyourat

Waffennacht wrote: »

Not many players know what it was like.

First off, prior to the updates, not a single move would get to a flappy DK. They blocked Curse and reflected everything else. So they made curse unblockable, well that's cool except you did damage every 3.5 secs and had everything else reflected (including ults)

So they added unreflectable moves, giving sorcs a way to get through reflects. This made non sorcs unhappy.

Shields... the devs themselves said, the point of a sorc and their wards is to be, practically unstoppable while wards up. The idea that a warded sorc is almost immortal is the point. Without them, your a typical sorc is dead.

This was pruor to armor buffs and proc sets ... then they came... making wards even better.

Te community really was in a vast majority favoring a minor major system for wards... they went with a duration change ::shrug::

Then they revamped sets.

Is a mSorc OP? Imo no, however, imo shield stacking is very easy, therefore a lot more players are able to implement the best characteristics of a sorc rather than any other class. Imo

I've been playin other classes since "sorcs are OP" and honestly do not see any significant difference is my over all wins/losses.

I think it may need looking into now though. before all set pieces were available in all pieces and CP was lower keeping up shields would really tax your magicka pool making the fact that they were immortal with shields up balanced because you knew if you kept pressuring them eventually those shields would fall. That's not the case now because now you can combine lich with a damage set which you couldn't do before without going dual wield, and you can also wear a dungeon set which you couldn't do before because lich took up your head and shoulders. as CP increases sorcs get more and sustainability as well. That's why sorcs are so OP now it's a combination of a defensive ability that was made to strong by a combination of armor sets and CP.

Izaki

Yeah if Curse doesn't stack on the boss what do you do in PvE then?

HoloYoitsu

KingJ

Its a reason why only sorcs can run light armor now. Magblade using Dampened over a healing ward isn't a problem not really a shield stack. Only sorc can stack 2 large damage shields on top of each other. Which is a issues sorc shields have no draw backs and with sets we have out now a sorc can have a high Stam recovery and with lich never run out of magic.Sorc are unbalanced in CP currently when it comes to defense and they can still deal alot of damage.

If they add a major minor system a lot of sorc won't be able to play the class anymore. Without both shields they don't know what to do.

Metemsycosis

My goodness. My opinion is we are seeing more sorcs because the update brought back the fun of playing them. They weren't too good for a few months. Too much reliance on sustain sets, which ruined both offense and defense and no obvious way to incorporate heavy armor etc.

So you want stam dks etc to run around with Max resistance and what was it 10K aoe ults but a sorc has to bolt the cardinal directions to get a one on one? Sorc class defenses are both active and short-lived. While many can tank pressure when outnumbered few can either survive it or fight back. That's like a lot of classes. Having curse tic twice is annoying but after the streak and shield nerfs, this seems fair.

HoloYoitsu

KingJ wrote: »

Its a reason why only sorcs can run light armor now. Magblade using Dampened over a healing ward isn't a problem not really a shield stack. Only sorc can stack 2 large damage shields on top of each other. Which is a issues sorc shields have no draw backs and with sets we have out now a sorc can have a high Stam recovery and with lich never run out of magic.Sorc are unbalanced in CP currently when it comes to defense and they can still deal alot of damage.

If they add a major minor system a lot of sorc won't be able to play the class anymore. Without both shields they don't know what to do.

Shields have no drawbacks? Shields scale completely differently compared to the other main forms of defense. That is to say they simply do not scale up as dmg increases.

• No matter how much incoming dmg you take, shields only mitigate the amount of the shield, anything that surpasses that will go straight to your health. Your Evil-3-Shield-Stack-of-OPness takes 3 GCDs to cast. Hardened being the largest @ around 12k average means that at most shields can only mitigate that 12k sustained dps.
• Block provides a flat 50% dmg mitigation.
• Dodge Roll simply negates all dodgable dmg and provides a mobility boost through the travel distance, making it the strongest scaling defensive mechanic.
• Cloak functions similarly to dodge in that it can force miss most single target dmg - even when revealed by detect pots.

And need I even mention that you can get 25% more dmg to shields from CP, and that there is an entire set to hard counter shields? Where's my increased dmg to block CP star and "block breaker" set? Oh right, they don't exist!

"now a sorc can have a high Stam recovery and with lich never run out of magic."

Your fictional sorc running both Amberplasm + Lich does. not. exist. To begin with, a destro sorc would only be able to have Amberplasm on one bar, which would be stupid. A DW build would be able to have Amberplasm on both bars, but be significantly lacking in dps without Juilanos or Spinners.

Jsmalls

@Neloth
I agree but apparently the community doesn't...

@NBrookus
Dually noted, what solutions can be offered without making the skill useless?

@Aziah
Agreed, but perhaps defensive abilities scaling off one and offensive scaling off another? Otherwise everyone would just forget about their resource pools and run high recovery.

@Waffennacht
With all the recent and continuing threads, just feel if we're going to get hit, want it to be on our terms...

@thankyourat
Certain sets need to be toned down. It used to be, sets offered good and bad parts, health or crit where it wasn't "ideal" etc. Now we have sets like spinner, spriggan, necropotence, hulking, and every combination you can think of for monster sets. It's a great time to be a theory crafter, but stats are getting out of hand.

@IzakiBrotherSs
Yeah that absolutely cannot go through like that would kill PvE trials. Although maybe our trial groups shouldn't be consisting of 8 Mag Sorcs to begin with haha.

@HoloYoitsu
Sorry =/ just want to get "nerfed" on our own terms. Don't want to be the mDK of last year.

@KingJ
So hardened and annulment stacking is a problem. If they couldn't stack what would be the recommended change to Hardened ward to compensate for its lack of diversity at that point?

@Metemsycosis
I really don't think any Sorc inside of PvP considered the second tic a buff, but idk I could be wrong... And agreed they became viable again. But according to a lot of players "too viable" Its the only class I play, I don't want to see it unplayable. Want a "nerf" on our terms.

KingJ

@Jsmalls I wouldn't change hardened at all its fine as is currently and the only shield that scaling off if Max magica. Not to mentioned harness is the better option compared to Dampened I don't know one sorc who use Dampened magica the sustain you get from Harness is to strong against other magic builds you will never run out of magica if you use that with lich.

Right now a major minor systems is needed for shields but that makes since so @Wrobel won't do it.It would fix all of these issues but he won't do it because it would actually balance the game.

SodanTok

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Its a reason why only sorcs can run light armor now. Magblade using Dampened over a healing ward isn't a problem not really a shield stack. Only sorc can stack 2 large damage shields on top of each other. Which is a issues sorc shields have no draw backs and with sets we have out now a sorc can have a high Stam recovery and with lich never run out of magic.Sorc are unbalanced in CP currently when it comes to defense and they can still deal alot of damage.

If they add a major minor system a lot of sorc won't be able to play the class anymore. Without both shields they don't know what to do.

Shields have no drawbacks? Shields scale completely differently compared to the other main forms of defense. That is to say they simply do not scale up as dmg increases.

• No matter how much incoming dmg you take, shields only mitigate the amount of the shield, anything that surpasses that will go straight to your health. Your Evil-3-Shield-Stack-of-OPness takes 3 GCDs to cast. Hardened being the largest @ around 12k average means that at most shields can only mitigate that 12k sustained dps.
• Block provides a flat 50% dmg mitigation.
• Dodge Roll simply negates all dodgable dmg and provides a mobility boost through the travel distance, making it the strongest scaling defensive mechanic.
• Cloak functions similarly to dodge in that it can force miss most single target dmg - even when revealed by detect pots.

And need I even mention that you can get 25% more dmg to shields from CP, and that there is an entire set to hard counter shields? Where's my increased dmg to block CP star and "block breaker" set? Oh right, they don't exist!

"now a sorc can have a high Stam recovery and with lich never run out of magic."

Your fictional sorc running both Amberplasm + Lich does. not. exist. To begin with, a destro sorc would only be able to have Amberplasm on one bar, which would be stupid. A DW build would be able to have Amberplasm on both bars, but be significantly lacking in dps without Juilanos or Spinners.

"Where's my increased dmg to block CP star and "block breaker" set?"
It is called spriggan or any set that boosts crit chance/dmg or penetration. Same for CP.

NBrookus

Jsmalls wrote: »

@NBrookus
Dually noted, what solutions can be offered without making the skill useless?

The "haunting" part really serves no purpose. Of the things sorcs wanted changed, Curse was nowhere on the list. Nor does it simplify rotations, as they thought it would. Even when it was unblockable, Velocious Curse was fine. It hurt mag DKs pretty bad, but now that they have a skill which doesn't require melee range damage to heal, it would be no problem. Reverting to the old Curse is very unlikely to happen but is ultimately the solution.

Of course we could make it so it takes longer to get out of combat and get on your horse, but I don't think anyone wants that!

There's the Wyrd Tree set, but the cooldown is too long, only works on heavy armor magicka builds and tanks, and is overall pretty "meh" as a set.

The other option is addressing purging it; the only counterplay. Lack of access to purges wasn't really an issue until we got poisons with up to 3 effects plus all the ability debuffs. A cheap Ritual ability for everyone -- buffing Efficient Purge to purge more things -- dilutes the templar class and decimates mag DKs. Removing poisons isn't going to happen, and buffing Purge seems unlikely to happen either.

There is the purge potion route -- which would provide counterplay for all classes/specs but require a tradeoff and not affect PVE at all. We are not likely to see another alchemy overhaul soon, but it would address providing counterplay to any number of debuffs and poisons. Invis + Purge + Speed would be a REAL escape potion.

HoloYoitsu

@Jsmalls Not gona happen, bolt escape and shields have been slammed with the nerf hammer already, and ZOS tends not to revisit such changes ever. GDB got a redesign because its "nerf" was simply a side effect of the battle spirit healing changes from IC. Shields have been reduced to 50% in Cyro along with shattering blows CP, the shield breaker set and then the nerf to 6 second duration. And while we're at it, the resource return on harness was already nerfed

That duration nerf was Wrobel's answer to all the tears over "shield stacking wahh", he addressed it specifically in eso live where he said he wasn't going to change shield stacking or critability. Looking at it objectively you will see why: shield stacking is necessary for healing ward to function. Shield stacking is necessary for sorc to be in any way unique to play, as Hardened is one of its 2 class defining skills.

If shields don't stack, healing ward will never heal you and harness is superior to hardend because of the magic return. If some stupid major/minor system was implemented it would face the same problem. Changing stacking would require healing ward to be completely reworked to some kind of non shield burst heal, but that then encroaches on the uniqueness of templars and DKs. Harness would also have to be completely reworked to be worse than hardened.

While we're on the subject of nerfing sorcs, just take a look at what Warden will bring to the table:

• Crystallized Shield, absorbs 3 spell projectiles and returns mag, lasts 6 sec. This skill will single handedly negate most sorc dps, most people probably looked at it and thought "oh just like scales we", but they are wrong. The skill cost is about 1k less than scales, and with the mag return and 6 sec duration, wardens can keep it up 100%. Additionally and more importantly, it is an absorb not a reflect. There are 2 other absorbs in the game; ball of light and absorb magic. While crushing shock and meteor are unreflectable, they can be absorbed!
• Blue Betty, offers a 1 effect purge as part of the skill. Against a destro sorc not using entropy, this is a strong counter to curse unless you stack up effects on them with poisons and endless fury.

Conclusion: sorc is already getting nerfed de facto by warden if absorbs continue to function as they do.

SodanTok

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

@Jsmalls Not gona happen, bolt escape and shields have been slammed with the nerf hammer already, and ZOS tends not to revisit such changes ever. GDB got a redesign because its "nerf" was simply a side effect of the battle spirit healing changes from IC. Shields have been reduced to 50% in Cyro along with shattering blows CP, the shield breaker set and then the nerf to 6 second duration. And while we're at it, the resource return on harness was already nerfed

That duration nerf was Wrobel's answer to all the tears over "shield stacking wahh", he addressed it specifically in eso live where he said he wasn't going to change shield stacking or critability. Looking at it objectively you will see why: shield stacking is necessary for healing ward to function. Shield stacking is necessary for sorc to be in any way unique to play, as Hardened is one of its 2 class defining skills.

If shields don't stack, healing ward will never heal you and harness is superior to hardend because of the magic return. If some stupid major/minor system was implemented it would face the same problem. Changing stacking would require healing ward to be completely reworked to some kind of non shield burst heal, but that then encroaches on the uniqueness of templars and DKs. Harness would also have to be completely reworked to be worse than hardened.

While we're on the subject of nerfing sorcs, just take a look at what Warden will bring to the table:

• Crystallized Shield, absorbs 3 spell projectiles and returns mag, lasts 6 sec. This skill will single handedly negate most sorc dps, most people probably looked at it and thought "oh just like scales we", but they are wrong. The skill cost is about 1k less than scales, and with the mag return and 6 sec duration, wardens can keep it up 100%. Additionally and more importantly, it is an absorb not a reflect. There are 2 other absorbs in the game; ball of light and absorb magic. While crushing shock and meteor are unreflectable, they can be absorbed!
• Blue Betty, offers a 1 effect purge as part of the skill. Against a destro sorc not using entropy, this is a strong counter to curse unless you stack up effects on them with poisons and endless fury.

Conclusion: sorc is already getting nerfed de facto by warden if absorbs continue to function as they do.

So tldr of your post:

• It wont get nerfed because it was nerfed in the past
• Shield stacking is needed because it is unique
• Shield stacking is needed because one shield works with it
• There will be magicka version of new class that will be less impacted by sorc than everyone else.

Are you even trying.

HoloYoitsu

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

@Jsmalls Not gona happen, bolt escape and shields have been slammed with the nerf hammer already, and ZOS tends not to revisit such changes ever. GDB got a redesign because its "nerf" was simply a side effect of the battle spirit healing changes from IC. Shields have been reduced to 50% in Cyro along with shattering blows CP, the shield breaker set and then the nerf to 6 second duration. And while we're at it, the resource return on harness was already nerfed

That duration nerf was Wrobel's answer to all the tears over "shield stacking wahh", he addressed it specifically in eso live where he said he wasn't going to change shield stacking or critability. Looking at it objectively you will see why: shield stacking is necessary for healing ward to function. Shield stacking is necessary for sorc to be in any way unique to play, as Hardened is one of its 2 class defining skills.

If shields don't stack, healing ward will never heal you and harness is superior to hardend because of the magic return. If some stupid major/minor system was implemented it would face the same problem. Changing stacking would require healing ward to be completely reworked to some kind of non shield burst heal, but that then encroaches on the uniqueness of templars and DKs. Harness would also have to be completely reworked to be worse than hardened.

While we're on the subject of nerfing sorcs, just take a look at what Warden will bring to the table:

• Crystallized Shield, absorbs 3 spell projectiles and returns mag, lasts 6 sec. This skill will single handedly negate most sorc dps, most people probably looked at it and thought "oh just like scales we", but they are wrong. The skill cost is about 1k less than scales, and with the mag return and 6 sec duration, wardens can keep it up 100%. Additionally and more importantly, it is an absorb not a reflect. There are 2 other absorbs in the game; ball of light and absorb magic. While crushing shock and meteor are unreflectable, they can be absorbed!
• Blue Betty, offers a 1 effect purge as part of the skill. Against a destro sorc not using entropy, this is a strong counter to curse unless you stack up effects on them with poisons and endless fury.

Conclusion: sorc is already getting nerfed de facto by warden if absorbs continue to function as they do.

So tldr of your post:

• It wont get nerfed because it was nerfed in the past
• Shield stacking is needed because it is unique
• Shield stacking is needed because one shield works with it
• There will be magicka version of new class that will be less impacted by sorc than everyone else.

Are you even trying.

I'm gona go out on a limb here and guess you're speaking to yourself when you say "are you even trying".

HoloYoitsu

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Its a reason why only sorcs can run light armor now. Magblade using Dampened over a healing ward isn't a problem not really a shield stack. Only sorc can stack 2 large damage shields on top of each other. Which is a issues sorc shields have no draw backs and with sets we have out now a sorc can have a high Stam recovery and with lich never run out of magic.Sorc are unbalanced in CP currently when it comes to defense and they can still deal alot of damage.

If they add a major minor system a lot of sorc won't be able to play the class anymore. Without both shields they don't know what to do.

Shields have no drawbacks? Shields scale completely differently compared to the other main forms of defense. That is to say they simply do not scale up as dmg increases.

• No matter how much incoming dmg you take, shields only mitigate the amount of the shield, anything that surpasses that will go straight to your health. Your Evil-3-Shield-Stack-of-OPness takes 3 GCDs to cast. Hardened being the largest @ around 12k average means that at most shields can only mitigate that 12k sustained dps.
• Block provides a flat 50% dmg mitigation.
• Dodge Roll simply negates all dodgable dmg and provides a mobility boost through the travel distance, making it the strongest scaling defensive mechanic.
• Cloak functions similarly to dodge in that it can force miss most single target dmg - even when revealed by detect pots.

And need I even mention that you can get 25% more dmg to shields from CP, and that there is an entire set to hard counter shields? Where's my increased dmg to block CP star and "block breaker" set? Oh right, they don't exist!

"now a sorc can have a high Stam recovery and with lich never run out of magic."

Your fictional sorc running both Amberplasm + Lich does. not. exist. To begin with, a destro sorc would only be able to have Amberplasm on one bar, which would be stupid. A DW build would be able to have Amberplasm on both bars, but be significantly lacking in dps without Juilanos or Spinners.

"Where's my increased dmg to block CP star and "block breaker" set?"
It is called spriggan or any set that boosts crit chance/dmg or penetration. Same for CP.

LOL. Unfortunately for your ego, I'm not a potato who doesn't understand the math.

On sorc 1k pen tends to be equivalent to 100 spell dmg, 4K from spinners and 3k from a sizable investment in Elfborn is not equivalent to the return from investing Shattering Blows against shields. It nets you ~15% dmg increase assuming you aren't over penetrating them. Similarly increasing crit chance is a much weaker counter to block than popping on shield breaker is to shields.

SodanTok

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

@Jsmalls Not gona happen, bolt escape and shields have been slammed with the nerf hammer already, and ZOS tends not to revisit such changes ever. GDB got a redesign because its "nerf" was simply a side effect of the battle spirit healing changes from IC. Shields have been reduced to 50% in Cyro along with shattering blows CP, the shield breaker set and then the nerf to 6 second duration. And while we're at it, the resource return on harness was already nerfed

That duration nerf was Wrobel's answer to all the tears over "shield stacking wahh", he addressed it specifically in eso live where he said he wasn't going to change shield stacking or critability. Looking at it objectively you will see why: shield stacking is necessary for healing ward to function. Shield stacking is necessary for sorc to be in any way unique to play, as Hardened is one of its 2 class defining skills.

If shields don't stack, healing ward will never heal you and harness is superior to hardend because of the magic return. If some stupid major/minor system was implemented it would face the same problem. Changing stacking would require healing ward to be completely reworked to some kind of non shield burst heal, but that then encroaches on the uniqueness of templars and DKs. Harness would also have to be completely reworked to be worse than hardened.

While we're on the subject of nerfing sorcs, just take a look at what Warden will bring to the table:

• Crystallized Shield, absorbs 3 spell projectiles and returns mag, lasts 6 sec. This skill will single handedly negate most sorc dps, most people probably looked at it and thought "oh just like scales we", but they are wrong. The skill cost is about 1k less than scales, and with the mag return and 6 sec duration, wardens can keep it up 100%. Additionally and more importantly, it is an absorb not a reflect. There are 2 other absorbs in the game; ball of light and absorb magic. While crushing shock and meteor are unreflectable, they can be absorbed!
• Blue Betty, offers a 1 effect purge as part of the skill. Against a destro sorc not using entropy, this is a strong counter to curse unless you stack up effects on them with poisons and endless fury.

Conclusion: sorc is already getting nerfed de facto by warden if absorbs continue to function as they do.

So tldr of your post:

• It wont get nerfed because it was nerfed in the past
• Shield stacking is needed because it is unique
• Shield stacking is needed because one shield works with it
• There will be magicka version of new class that will be less impacted by sorc than everyone else.

Are you even trying.

I'm gona go out on a limb here and guess you're speaking to yourself when you say "are you even trying".

I only reduced your post to bring up your arguments. No need for counter arguments, since they are defeating themself.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Its a reason why only sorcs can run light armor now. Magblade using Dampened over a healing ward isn't a problem not really a shield stack. Only sorc can stack 2 large damage shields on top of each other. Which is a issues sorc shields have no draw backs and with sets we have out now a sorc can have a high Stam recovery and with lich never run out of magic.Sorc are unbalanced in CP currently when it comes to defense and they can still deal alot of damage.

If they add a major minor system a lot of sorc won't be able to play the class anymore. Without both shields they don't know what to do.

Shields have no drawbacks? Shields scale completely differently compared to the other main forms of defense. That is to say they simply do not scale up as dmg increases.

• No matter how much incoming dmg you take, shields only mitigate the amount of the shield, anything that surpasses that will go straight to your health. Your Evil-3-Shield-Stack-of-OPness takes 3 GCDs to cast. Hardened being the largest @ around 12k average means that at most shields can only mitigate that 12k sustained dps.
• Block provides a flat 50% dmg mitigation.
• Dodge Roll simply negates all dodgable dmg and provides a mobility boost through the travel distance, making it the strongest scaling defensive mechanic.
• Cloak functions similarly to dodge in that it can force miss most single target dmg - even when revealed by detect pots.

And need I even mention that you can get 25% more dmg to shields from CP, and that there is an entire set to hard counter shields? Where's my increased dmg to block CP star and "block breaker" set? Oh right, they don't exist!

"now a sorc can have a high Stam recovery and with lich never run out of magic."

Your fictional sorc running both Amberplasm + Lich does. not. exist. To begin with, a destro sorc would only be able to have Amberplasm on one bar, which would be stupid. A DW build would be able to have Amberplasm on both bars, but be significantly lacking in dps without Juilanos or Spinners.

"Where's my increased dmg to block CP star and "block breaker" set?"
It is called spriggan or any set that boosts crit chance/dmg or penetration. Same for CP.

LOL. Unfortunately for your ego, I'm not a potato who doesn't understand the math.

On sorc 1k pen tends to be equivalent to 100 spell dmg, 4K from spinners and 3k from a sizable investment in Elfborn is not equivalent to the return from investing Shattering Blows against shields. It nets you ~15% dmg increase assuming you aren't over penetrating them. Similarly increasing crit chance is a much weaker counter to block than popping on shield breaker is to shields.

Are you for real even trying.
Did you just complain that increasing damage to everyone but shields is worse than only to shield?

Penetration not that good like shattering you say eh? That bonus 7k pen you just mentioned is probably like ~17% damage increase. No need to assume overpenetration since you are complaining about block which is mainly heavy armor domain. Also thats mostly because you are already rocking 5k pen from your light armor and 5k from your sharpened staff. Both things already increase your damage substantially to anything but shields (like 30%).
My math may be little wonky, but +/- it should be close.

Is increase of crit chance weaker counter to block than shield breaker? Well yeah. But you also got that penetration. But you also increase your damage to everyone (but shields).

Dont get me started on how you can actually fear blockers, or that they are sitting duck and cant just streak away and spam dark deal/conver and that they usually dont deal even enough damage and if they do, its from melee range. Or that they are completly negating their regen.

Or that shield breaker is 5pieces of equipment to get 2k dps to shielded users health (and 0 to everybody else). That is made completly useless by ANY heal. And requires attacker to spam light attacks while also somehow maintaining enough shield damage so healing ward doesnt expire for maximum heal every time. While also not allow sorc to ever LoS and ever use dark conversion.

The only reason shieldbreaker is even usable is because average sorcs are too used to shields, that they never really care about HP.

//EDIT:
Forgot to mention unblockable curse or unblockable destro ult.
Also that bastion buffs shield which are defense vs every regular damage in the game, while shattering blows buff only damage to shields. Which makes the CP trade already uneven.

Anti_Virus

@HoloYoitsu

You know you aren't forced to run healing ward you have a class heal just because you refuse to use it doen't mean that its not viable.

Kram8ion

Wow are mag sorcs broke? :tired_face

HoloYoitsu

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@HoloYoitsu

You know you aren't forced to run healing ward you have a class heal just because you refuse to use it doen't mean that its not viable.

Yeah, I and every other sorc in the game iust choose not to use our totally viable crit surge heals that perform worse than rapid regen! Or are you talking about dark exchange? The totally interruptable channel that drains my stam?

Troll harder bro, You're about to drown in your own salinity.

@Lord_Hev Care to shed light on this mysterious sorc heal that is as viable as healing ward?

Anti_Virus

@HoloYoitsu

Yep it's called Twilight Matriarch. Use it then you wont need to use healing ward. Or keep QQing about your "non viable sorc heals" and L2P

You knew what heal I was talking about but you deliberately avoided mentioning it since it would make your arguement weak.

3/10 try again troll.

utb99

Buff Shields and make them critable

NBrookus

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Yep it's called Twilight Matriarch. Use it then you wont need to use healing ward. Or keep QQing about your "non viable sorc heals" and L2P

Only if everyone is too stupid not to kill it this pet you have double- or triple-barred. PVE mobs are too stupid -- PVPers are not.

HoloYoitsu

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@HoloYoitsu

Yep it's called Twilight Matriarch. Use it then you wont need to use healing ward. Or keep QQing about your "non viable sorc heals" and L2P

You knew what heal I was talking about but you deliberately avoided mentioning it since it would make your arguement weak.

3/10 try again troll.

Of course I do not count Twilight, because it's a pet. Pets only work well in dueling builds, whereas sorcs actually use the other 2 skills I mentioned in Cyrodiil.

So since you've finally named it, why don't you go ahead and tell us how this 1.5 second cast time summon that needs to be double bar'd is at all a viable alternative to healing ward in Cyrodiil?

Anti_Virus

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@HoloYoitsu

Yep it's called Twilight Matriarch. Use it then you wont need to use healing ward. Or keep QQing about your "non viable sorc heals" and L2P

You knew what heal I was talking about but you deliberately avoided mentioning it since it would make your arguement weak.

3/10 try again troll.

Of course I do not count Twilight, because it's a pet. Pets only work well in dueling builds, whereas sorcs actually use the other 2 skills I mentioned in Cyrodiil.

So since you've finally named it, why don't you go ahead and tell us how this 1.5 second cast time summon that needs to be double bar'd is at all a viable alternative to healing ward in Cyrodiil?

Because its a pet, if I can be single bared, deal decent damage and heal you at the same time it would be OP and copying templar BOL even though it heals better than BOL.

Pets can work in any builds don't make excuses you just refuse to use tools you have to benefit you dark deal also has a cast time is that a problem too or what you need it for sustain yet it too has a cast time? Quit Deflecting Quit QQing, use tools to benefit you and L2P.

Anti_Virus

NBrookus wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Yep it's called Twilight Matriarch. Use it then you wont need to use healing ward. Or keep QQing about your "non viable sorc heals" and L2P

Only if everyone is too stupid not to kill it this pet you have double- or triple-barred. PVE mobs are too stupid -- PVPers are not.

There is always a cost benefit to everything, Zos gave you a BOL but at the cost of losing 2 bar slots and having to micromanage a pet, the class was designed to use pets and patch after patch they buff them to encourage useage of them. One day they will make pets unkillable and allow the storm atro to walk and you will still QQ about them.

If you want to have a one button heal play a templar, other wise Twilight Matriarch is your heal at the cost of having to manage a pet. Shield stacking is broken and should be removed.

You already have great mobility, ranged damage you can't have the best survivability too without sacrificing something.

NBrookus

Anti_Virus wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Yep it's called Twilight Matriarch. Use it then you wont need to use healing ward. Or keep QQing about your "non viable sorc heals" and L2P

Only if everyone is too stupid not to kill it this pet you have double- or triple-barred. PVE mobs are too stupid -- PVPers are not.

There is always a cost benefit to everything, Zos gave you a BOL but at the cost of losing 2 bar slots and having to micromanage a pet, the class was designed to use pets and patch after patch they buff them to encourage useage of them. One day they will make pets unkillable and allow the storm atro to walk and you will still QQ about them.

If you want to have a one button heal play a templar, other wise Twilight Matriarch is your heal at the cost of having to manage a pet. Shield stacking is broken and should be removed.

You already have great mobility, ranged damage you can't have the best survivability too without sacrificing something.

If the class was "designed to use pets" it was done so exceptionally poorly. Have you ever tried to pet sorc?

And yeah, I play templar way more than sorc.