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Cathexis

I'm curious, how can you be in a disadvantage by not using the addon? Could you describe it to me please?

I can and have, it allows you to do things players without the addon cannot, like play agressively forward with a gank build, avoid having to use situational awareness, and forces players into builds which do not run timer builds and that have to both tank unreasonable amounts of damage and deal sustained burst that will force 7x dodge rolls in a row in order to land a hit (so roughly 21 minimum seconds of sustained burst provided no other defensive abilities are implemented).

You basically reduce players to having to use entirely passive defenses and spam the hell out of you to compete as long as you are pressing buttons (so basically, you must use zerg mentality or don't bother unless you are running a pure tank, in which case you will likely do ineffective damage).

Dorrino

Cathexis wrote: »

I'm curious, how can you be in a disadvantage by not using the addon? Could you describe it to me please?

I can and have, it allows you to do things players without the addon cannot, like play agressively forward with a gank build, avoid having to use situational awareness, and forces players into builds which do not run timer builds and that have to both tank unreasonable amounts of damage and deal sustained burst that will force 7x dodge rolls in a row in order to land a hit (so roughly 21 minimum seconds of sustained burst provided no other defensive abilities are implemented).

You basically reduce players to having to use entirely passive defenses and spam the hell out of you to compete as long as you are pressing buttons (so basically, you must use zerg mentality or don't bother unless you are running a pure tank, in which case you will likely do ineffective damage).

You described your perceived ADVANTAGES of using the addon. And i asked to describe DISADVANTAGES.

Lack of potential advantages is not a disadvantage, since you need to be able to utilize that additional perception that addon gives.

My question is - say you play without an addon and you fight somebody. What are your disadvantages compared to having the addon?

I don't think you're going to say 'worse perception' because that's kind of the point you've been arguing against for quite a while already:) And IF that worse perception IS a disadvantage than we can easily settle that the addon makes better something that was lacking before^_^

kadar

Cathexis wrote: »

I'm curious, how can you be in a disadvantage by not using the addon? Could you describe it to me please?

I can and have, it allows you to do things players without the addon cannot, like play agressively forward with a gank build, avoid having to use situational awareness, and forces players into builds which do not run timer builds and that have to both tank unreasonable amounts of damage and deal sustained burst that will force 7x dodge rolls in a row in order to land a hit (so roughly 21 minimum seconds of sustained burst provided no other defensive abilities are implemented).

You basically reduce players to having to use entirely passive defenses and spam the hell out of you to compete as long as you are pressing buttons (so basically, you must use zerg mentality or don't bother unless you are running a pure tank, in which case you will likely do ineffective damage).

@Cathexis edit: I sent you a PM instead of posting it here, lol.

br0steen

Lol easy mode pvp on pc

SodanTok

Dorrino wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

I'm curious, how can you be in a disadvantage by not using the addon? Could you describe it to me please?

I can and have, it allows you to do things players without the addon cannot, like play agressively forward with a gank build, avoid having to use situational awareness, and forces players into builds which do not run timer builds and that have to both tank unreasonable amounts of damage and deal sustained burst that will force 7x dodge rolls in a row in order to land a hit (so roughly 21 minimum seconds of sustained burst provided no other defensive abilities are implemented).

You basically reduce players to having to use entirely passive defenses and spam the hell out of you to compete as long as you are pressing buttons (so basically, you must use zerg mentality or don't bother unless you are running a pure tank, in which case you will likely do ineffective damage).

You described your perceived ADVANTAGES of using the addon. And i asked to describe DISADVANTAGES.

Lack of potential advantages is not a disadvantage, since you need to be able to utilize that additional perception that addon gives.

My question is - say you play without an addon and you fight somebody. What are your disadvantages compared to having the addon?

I don't think you're going to say 'worse perception' because that's kind of the point you've been arguing against for quite a while already:) And IF that worse perception IS a disadvantage than we can easily settle that the addon makes better something that was lacking before^_^

FYI
https://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disadvantage
an unfavorable, inferior, or prejudicial condition

To put it differently, so you can understand (you have shown you are lacking in that department)

Lacking advantage is too disadvantage.
Also lacking skills to utilize given advantage does not make the advantage potential.

Dorrino

The_Outsider wrote: »

@Cathexis edit: I sent you a PM instead of posting it here, lol.

I've read it nonetheless:D

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

FYI
https://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disadvantage
an unfavorable, inferior, or prejudicial condition

Exactly! That's what i'm asking. I'm asking how exactly NOT using the addon puts players into an unfavorable, inferior, or prejudicial condition

Seems that we have a consensus that the addon gives its users some advantage. But advantage is a meaningless word unless we provide a reference point. Advantage over what/whom?

There're 2 ways of looking at advantage within the context of the addon.

One way is advantage over the same player, but without the addon. Say you had a 'skill' of 5. Now with addon you have that 'skill' of 7. This is as advantage. But it is an advantage of the player over himself.

All interface addons by definition provide that advantage. Actually this is the only reason people use them. Thus claiming that my addon allows for a better (easier, less frustrating, more efficient) pvp gameplay is obvious. Any buff tracker or custom unit frames, even any kill counter provides an advantage over not using them. Again before using a bufftracker a player had a 'skill' of 5, now he knows better when to renew his buffs and what debuffs he has on myself, he chooses better pvp decisions and thus his pvp 'skill' becomes 7. Due to the bufftracker.

The second way of understanding 'advantage' is 'advantage over other players'. You can see that if there's a say universal metrics of pvp skills then people using a bufftracker (or my addon) obtain a higher 'rank' in this metrics. Thus any addon useful in pvp increases the pvp 'skill' of its user compared to both himself and other players.

The question is whether NOT using the addon puts the player at a DISADVANTAGE. To claim that, using an example from above, you need to say that if that player never used my addon (or a bufftracker) his 'skill' would have plateaued at 5. It needs to be shown that the player would have never gained that level of 7 otherwise. Only then NOT using the addon (or a bufftracker) would be a disadvantage.

So in the light of all that i ask again, how come players can't get the same level that they allegedly obtain with the addon by themselves? Because they can't see behind them? But what about the fabled prediction and anticipation or even frantic camera rotation?:)

I'm really curious if there's is an example when NOT using the addon would put the player at a disadvantage compared to another player who uses it. Thank you.

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

To put it differently, so you can understand (you have shown you are lacking in that department)

Lacking advantage is too disadvantage.
Also lacking skills to utilize given advantage does not make the advantage potential.

It is really fortunate that using personal insults increases the credibility of one's words:) Now i understand your point better!

Kas

Kas wrote: »

That said, it's also an add-on that uses parts of the API that are way too strong and partially just contradict game design.

Let's discuss which parts do that:)

notifications about channelled abilities. there is no way the game otherwise tells you that you're the target. otherwise it could display the "dodge now, block now" indicators.
as i said, not nearly as dramatic as what other add-ons do.

notifications about projectiles are where the add-on has the biggest impact, though. I'd still like camera panning to be part of the game if you want to react on stuff happening in your back and thus would like to see this removed from the add-on api. however, it does not really contradict the design.

Dorrino wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

And I am glad it's making lots of the good API things public and I currently use it - to not be at a disadvantage.

I'm curious, how can you be in a disadvantage by not using the addon? Could you describe it to me please?
e API that are way too strong and partially just contradict game design.

I used to pan my mouse a lot when kiting a group of enemies so i could react on stuff happening in my back. with the add-on this is no longer as necessary and before it was very hard to do it perfectly. now dodging stuff like crystal frags is child's play.

In 1v1 situations, even after many duels and lots of gametime, I could not see stuff liek cfrags every single time they were coming. Enemies apply pressure and under pressure mistakes can happen and I could miss something. With the add-on is so much easier to tell, these things don't happen to me anymore.

I've never been a fan of fire heavies in sorc v sorc and I didn't use them, but now with the add on, it feels nearly impossible that someone else could catch my offguard with them.

When playing sorc, I really feel the increased amount of dodged frags. It is annoying to a point where I now enjoy other classes significantly more. I never played bow builds, but both cfrags and assassins will are not nearly as good right now as they were, when you could catch people offguard with them. especially assassin's will cancelled with a bar-swap or soemtime, is pretty hard to see. With the add-on, it's pretty hard not to dodge/shield/block it, though.

Haydenmango

Dorrino wrote: »

The question is whether NOT using the addon puts the player at a DISADVANTAGE. To claim that, using an example from above, you need to say that if that player never used my addon (or a bufftracker) his 'skill' would have plateaued at 5. It needs to be shown that the player would have never gained that level of 7 otherwise. Only then NOT using the addon (or a bufftracker) would be a disadvantage.

So in the light of all that i ask again, how come players can't get the same level that they allegedly obtain with the addon by themselves? Because they can't see behind them? But what about the fabled prediction and anticipation or even frantic camera rotation?:)

I'm really curious if there's is an example when NOT using the addon would put the player at a disadvantage compared to another player who uses it. Thank you.

Players not using the addon have the disadvantage of being caught completely unaware.

Without the addon players that are unaware of being attacked have a skill level plateau of 7/10 because they can't accurately predict or see things they are completely unaware of.
With the addon players that are unaware get a skill level plateau of 10/10 in the same situation because the addon can accurately predict things they are complely unaware of.

"Fabled prediction and anticipation or even frantic camera rotation" will never achieve the 100% accuracy of a computer addon (assuming it's coded correctly). In my opinion being caught unaware is just a part of the game that your addon is ruining rather than improving.

You bring up some interesting points in this discussion though. The more addons I see for this game the more I wish they would turn off addons in PvP. I guess player awareness shouldn't matter since our computers can be aware for us. No need to look around for known enemies when my addon tells me who's nearby. No need to look out for enemy attacks because my addon will warn me. No need to use in game cues for buffs/debuffs since my buff tracker will flash a giant "REAPPLY/PURGE NOW" warning constantly. Just need to click the buttons my computer tells me to when my computer tells me to and everything will be fun. lol

colec74

I haven't used the add-on, but I'll have to check it out to see what all the [snip] is about. If someone is using an add-on that gives visual notifications using the API provided by ZOS how would it be considered cheating? Would that mean that using an add-on that reminds you that you don't have food up is a cheat? It's a game and I couldn't tell that I'm hungry. A buff tracker would also be considered a cheat. It lets you see what buffs and debuffs are applied. Again, this is an example of in-game vs. real life. I can't feel that I am poisoned in-game. They're all visual notifications. I would imagine that this might also level the playing field for people with auditory issues.

It seems that this add-on is really causing issues with the skilled pvp players. I would think they would love the add-on. If what they say is correct it would make for more competitive gameplay for them.

Also, to the guy that said he was a Psych Major and a Military Veteran I would say congratulations on your continuing education and thank you for your service. However, neither one of those things make you an expert in anything. I am also a military veteran with one year left until retirement, but I don't see how either is relevant to this discussion. And, being a Psych Major doesn't make you an expert in anything. It means you are going to college to get a BS (hopefully) in Psychology. Good luck in your studies.

Miat, you handled yourself with valid arguments while still being respectful. Appreciated.

[Edited to remove profanity]

Dorrino

Kas wrote: »

notifications about channelled abilities. there is no way the game otherwise tells you that you're the target. otherwise it could display the "dodge now, block now" indicators.
as i said, not nearly as dramatic as what other add-ons do.

Yes, this is correct that the game's default interface never tells you if YOU are the target of a channel, but does it create a contradiction? There's plenty of examples when default interface doesn't provide some information and addons make up for it. But a contradiction would be if game interface explicitly disallows something and addons make it happen. Your example of queuing to a not assigned and not guest campaign is a contradiction (i checked, i does work). Channeled attacks notifications are not.

Kas wrote: »

notifications about projectiles are where the add-on has the biggest impact, though. I'd still like camera panning to be part of the game if you want to react on stuff happening in your back and thus would like to see this removed from the add-on api. however, it does not really contradict the design.

Yep:)

Kas wrote: »

I used to pan my mouse a lot when kiting a group of enemies so i could react on stuff happening in my back. with the add-on this is no longer as necessary and before it was very hard to do it perfectly. now dodging stuff like crystal frags is child's play.

In 1v1 situations, even after many duels and lots of gametime, I could not see stuff liek cfrags every single time they were coming. Enemies apply pressure and under pressure mistakes can happen and I could miss something. With the add-on is so much easier to tell, these things don't happen to me anymore.

I've never been a fan of fire heavies in sorc v sorc and I didn't use them, but now with the add on, it feels nearly impossible that someone else could catch my offguard with them.

Yep, you received an advantage, something that was harder to do before is easier now. The question still stands, if you're NOT using the addon, are you at a disadvantage and compared to what? To using the addon? Probably, but as i showed above any addon has this property. What we try to figure out here is if there's a case when not using the addon puts you at a disadvantage when fighting somebody who does use it. If the answer is 'not necessarily' (as i tend to think), then we can't say people are forced into using the addon. And we end up with people choosing to improve their awareness using it.

Haydenmango wrote: »

Players not using the addon have the disadvantage of being caught completely unaware.

Yep, that's the whole point:) Other people are telling me that being unaware somehow allows for more skilled and fun gameplay, though.

Haydenmango wrote: »

Without the addon players that are unaware of being attacked have a skill level plateau of 7/10 because they can't accurately predict or see things they are completely unaware of.
With the addon players that are unaware get a skill level plateau of 10/10 in the same situation because the addon can accurately predict things they are complely unaware of.

What about 9/10 vs 10/10?:) I do agree with this assessment though:)

Haydenmango wrote: »

"Fabled prediction and anticipation or even frantic camera rotation" will never achieve the 100% accuracy of a computer addon (assuming it's coded correctly). In my opinion being caught unaware is just a part of the game that your addon is ruining rather than improving.

It is (can be) a part of the game. The question is why would we PREFER it to be a part of the game? People still are unware about of lot of things in pvp, related to both the combat itself and strategic situation. The addon raises awareness about *some* things, while leaving most of the iceberg below the water. The question is why do we NOT want these specific things to be more noticeable?:)

Haydenmango wrote: »

You bring up some interesting points in this discussion though. The more addons I see for this game the more I wish they would turn off addons in PvP. I guess player awareness shouldn't matter since our computers can be aware for us. No need to look around for known enemies when my addon tells me who's nearby. No need to look out for enemy attacks because my addon will warn me. No need to use in game cues for buffs/debuffs since my buff tracker will flash a giant "REAPPLY/PURGE NOW" warning constantly. Just need to click the buttons my computer tells me to when my computer tells me to and everything will be fun. lol

Some might argue that's what games are about. To press correct buttons in a response to correct cues.

colec74 wrote: »

Miat, you handled yourself with valid arguments while still being respectful. Appreciated.

Thank you for your kind words

Avran_Sylt

@Dorrino
Right, so, on the awareness v execution argument.

In terms of the scripts, you say that scripting abilities so that you don't have to time them perfectly (motor skills) is what you disagree with. A script dishing out those button presses without you having to is what you disagree with, right?

from this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/340047/remove-incoming-projectile-api-notification-please#latest

Dorrino wrote: »

Yet again, unfortunately, like some other people before you, you don't see a difference between awareness and execution:(

I do have problems with scripted responses, as much as i DON'T have problems with extra awareness. The thread above contains a discussion of this point as well.

Then on this thread you say:

Dorrino wrote: »

The second way of understanding 'advantage' is 'advantage over other players'. You can see that if there's a say universal metrics of pvp skills then people using a bufftracker (or my addon) obtain a higher 'rank' in this metrics. Thus any addon useful in pvp increases the pvp 'skill' of its user compared to both himself and other players.

The question is whether NOT using the addon puts the player at a DISADVANTAGE. To claim that, using an example from above, you need to say that if that player never used my addon (or a bufftracker) his 'skill' would have plateaued at 5. It needs to be shown that the player would have never gained that level of 7 otherwise. Only then NOT using the addon (or a bufftracker) would be a disadvantage.

So in the light of all that i ask again, how come players can't get the same level that they allegedly obtain with the addon by themselves? Because they can't see behind them? But what about the fabled prediction and anticipation or even frantic camera rotation?:)

I'm really curious if there's is an example when NOT using the addon would put the player at a disadvantage compared to another player who uses it. Thank you.

And above, here, you say that the fabled prediction and anticipation is how players could reach this level of awareness without your addon.

So, how can a player reach the levels of awareness that your addon provides? Well, it would require fast mouse movements to quickly scour the battlefield, and near instantaneous identification of all images on the screen (identify what is a projectile, and what isn't). In this, it means the player would need to have good motor skills (playing with a high sensitivity) as well as having fast target acquisition (familiarity with objects). In this case, to gain awareness it requires good execution of the camera (rotating it fast and frequently) via good execution of your hand motor skills, and good execution of your ability to target identify.

so, how could a player get to script level worthy damage output? They would need to practice their abilities to the point that it becomes muscle memory to to press them. so they can execute a proper sequence of button presses, and execute proper time keeping.

Your addon does exactly what you're against, it removes the execution part of awareness. to gain awareness you need to use the tools you're given (game screen. mouse, moving the camera). your addon removes the need to move your mouse to look for targets/threats.It also makes it so you don't have to threat identify as much, you just have to look at a predetermined point on your screen for an alert, rather than your entire screen. Much like how ability scripts remove the need for you to interact with your buttons, just a single button press.

Edit: Awareness is a product of good execution of the tools you are given, as is ability execution (damage output).

Dorrino

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Right, so, on the awareness v execution argument.
In terms of the scripts, you say that scripting abilities so that you don't have to time them perfectly (motor skills) is what you disagree with. A script dishing out those button presses without you having to is what you disagree with, right?

Scripting execution was YOUR point:) I can only assume you meant to get rid of manual combat direction.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

And above, here, you say that the fabled prediction and anticipation is how players could reach this level of awareness without your addon.

Not quite that. 'Prediction and anticipation'(tm) has be extensively used by opponents of the notification existence as an argument as to WHY having notifications is bad. The argument went like this:

ME: Notifications lead to better awareness, thus to better combat responses, thus to a more skillful gameplay.

Opponent: Having the notifications lead to reduced reliance on P&A (prediction and anticipation), thus to less skillful gameplay.

ME: But that's the whole point! Currently the balance between reaction and prediction is heavily shifted towards prediction for non tanky specs. And since prediction is much less reliable and trainable compared to reaction, gameplay that is based mostly on prediction lead to higher frustration, is less reliable and provides less dependence of the result on the player's efforts (since you can't really make efforts to PREDICT, it either happens or don't happen). Thus to less skillful gameplay.

Opponent: You don't understand. Prediction IS the skillful gameplay, *my assumption* because fewer people can achieve greater degree of it, thus we create higher segregation between players and nurture elitism.

ME: But how those players can claim THEY did that if they can't trust prediction? And why do we need to increase the gap between players even more and make the game less accessible for new players?

Opponent: You don't understand, this is what is has to be.

ME: ok.jpg

So it was THEM who claimed they could reach a similar level of awareness as the addon provides due to P&A. And doing that ONLY in this way - is what skillful play has to be about.

But then i found out they predominantly play ganking specs and complain because they allegedly have it a bit harder to kill unsuspecting targets:) So they blame their TARGETS with having low levels of P&A and thus feel cheated when the targets use my addon to raise it.

This part alone raises the level of hypocrisy in this thread a bit too high in my opinion:)

If you prefer P&A instead of my addon - use your P&A. The problem is they don't want and don't really need it (being invisible gankers). They want their victims NOT to have P&A too high.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

So, how can a player reach the levels of awareness that your addon provides? Well, it would require fast mouse movements to quickly scour the battlefield, and near instantaneous identification of all images on the screen (identify what is a projectile, and what isn't). In this, it means the player would need to have good motor skills (playing with a high sensitivity) as well as having fast target acquisition (familiarity with objects). In this case, to gain awareness it requires good execution of the camera (rotating it fast and frequently) via good execution of your hand motor skills, and good execution of your ability to target identify.

so, how could a player get to script level worthy ability execution? They would need to practice their abilities to the point that it becomes muscle memory to to press them. so they can execute a proper sequence of button presses, and execute proper time keeping.

Your addon does exactly what you're against, it removes the execution part of awareness. to gain awareness you need to use the tools you're given (game screen. mouse, moving the camera). your addon removes the need to move your mouse to look for targets/threats.It also makes it so you don't have to threat identify as much, you just have to look at a predetermined point on your screen for an alert, rather than your entire screen. Much like how ability scripts remove the need for you to interact with your buttons, just a single button press.

But THIS is actually an excellent point and i thank you for this.

I definitely agree with your main premise that there are actions that lead to better awareness. And if the addon would automate THOSE actions your argument would be totally valid.

Now let's clarify your assertions:

1. Awareness is not (or not just) a passive observation. Awareness requires some interactions to be performed with the game world.

2. Using the addon make these interactions redundant.

3. These interactions given by the default interface are the 'best' possible interactions to get that awareness and altering them would be 'bad'. <- note that 'good' and 'bad' are in quotes, because both these points need justification.

4. Outsourcing these interactions to a 3rd party software is a similar thing as outsourcing decisions and executions of decisions of a 3rd party software.

Let's start.

1. Awareness is not (or not just) a passive observation

As i said i definitely agree that *some* part of awareness comes from a set of actions that set up the possibility to obtain that awareness.

In order to find out where a player is you need to move your mouse to find the player in the game world. In order to know his hp level you need to mouse over him. In order to see the map you need to open the map etc.

But even larger set of awareness comes from the onscreen hud alone. Without any game related actions required.

You don't need to do anything to find out your hp and resource levels. To find out your group hp levels and death states. To find out how much damage you did or received. What skills are available to you. If you have enough ultimate. What buffs do you have (in the default interface starting with Morrowind).

Actually i even struggled to find enough things that require you to DO something in order to be aware about them:)

So i do agree that some awareness comes with a requirement of some actions to be performed before it. But even larger set of awareness cues comes from the hud.

And the argument about the addon can be rephrased as 'do we like or do we not like that some of the awareness cues previously only available as a result of actions, now became a part of hud'?

This is the key problem with your, otherwise excellent, argument. The addon didn't automate anything about those actions. It just made a 'copy' of those world cues in the hud.

2. Using the addon make these interactions redundant.

I immediately disagree with this premise, because there's still a much larger part of information about battle state that can only be obtained with actions. You still need to know where the other players are in the 3d world. You still need to watch their animations to track OTHER important information, not covered in the addon (their buffs, hp, and skills).

So using the addon does NOT make the player to stop frantically looking around and his new awareness from my addon still comes with the need of P&A and everything else:)

3. These interactions given by the default interface are the 'best' possible interactions to get that awareness

This was actually mostly covered in the 1. And it needs to be justified why to we want these interactions to be in the gameworld only.

4. Outsourcing these interactions to a 3rd party software is a similar thing as outsourcing decisions and executions of decisions of a 3rd party software.

Again was answered in 1. You do not outsource mouse movement to the software because both you still have to perform them (3.) and because the addon does not replicate mouse movement to give the player additional awareness.

This point would have been valid iff the addon indeed moved your camera really fast so you would be able to notice all those threats around you:)

Thus unfortunately i have disagree with your conclusion that 'Awareness is a product of good execution of the tools you are given, as is ability execution (damage output)' on the bases above.

edit: missed an important part. You argument consists only with awareness and execution, but there's the most important part of gameplay that is decision-making. Thus you can't just go and automate execution. You need to automate decision-making first, otherwise there's nothing to execute:)

Avran_Sylt

@Dorrino

1) You are right, your addon doesn't actually automate these steps, it makes it even worse by removing the steps entirely. Take for example that snipe from behind example. If you're looking straight ahead, on your game screen you can only see in front of you (and slightly behind because of where the 3rd person camera is situated). That visual, of the things in front of you, is the currently rendered world for you. Now, if that player fires that arrow, you still will not be able to see it. If you were to be able to identify it without your addon, you would have to move your mouse to be able to view that attack, so you could respond accordingly. Your addon removes this step, by popping up an alert on your HUD. Which in my opinion, is even worse than automation such as with scripting attacks.

2) In truth I was a bit hasty in saying that your addon negated the need to actually move your screen, as there are indeed many other aspects that it doesn't cover. What it does is as mentioned above, not requiring you to move your screen to be alerted to some information about players.

3) No, the interactions from the default interface are not the best possible interactions to get awareness. That's the entire problem with your addon, it makes the addon the best possible source for information for specific interactions. the base game makes it so that you're unaware of attacks coming from behind you, so that players could try to set up ambushes or try for better positioning. Your addon makes any kind of positioning irrelevant, not to mention it makes it so you can run full tilt forward and get all needed information about when to dodge without even having to look behind you, so you can maximize your running away speed.

4) Again, as stated in 1, your program doesn't outsource anything, rather, it cuts interactions from the games to make it easier for the player using your addon.

Dorrino

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Dorrino

1) You are right, your addon doesn't actually automate these steps, it makes it even worse by removing the steps entirely. Take for example that snipe from behind example. If you're looking straight ahead, on your game screen you can only see in front of you (and slightly behind because of where the 3rd person camera is situated). That visual, of the things in front of you, is the currently rendered world for you. Now, if that player fires that arrow, you still will not be able to see it. If you were to be able to identify it without your addon, you would have to move your mouse to be able to view that attack, so you could respond accordingly. Your addon removes this step, by popping up an alert on your HUD. Which in my opinion, is even worse than automation such as with scripting attacks.

While reading through your example i got a guess that i want to test.

You make a huge emphesis on visual part of both snipes and notifications (thus mouse movements requirements), so what if the addon provided purely auditory notifications instead? We both know snipe has a highly specific sound associated with it. What if the addon produced a voice saying 'SNIPE' instead of the on-screen notification?:)

My question is, would this make you feel better, worse or the same about the addon? I'm trying to understand which part exactly is the key offender for some people.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

2) In truth I was a bit hasty in saying that your addon negated the need to actually move your screen, as there are indeed many other aspects that it doesn't cover. What it does is as mentioned above, not requiring you to move your screen to be alerted to some information about players.

I understand this. What i'm curious about is why do we easily allow some crucial information to be provided by hud only (hp and resources values), but some other, arguably less important information has to be gameworld only (enemy attacks)?

The distinction criteria can't be importance, it can't be relevance to the player (for obvious reasons), then what can that be?

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

3) No, the interactions from the default interface are not the best possible interactions to get awareness. That's the entire problem with your addon, it makes the addon the best possible source for information for specific interactions. the base game makes it so that you're unaware of attacks coming from behind you, so that players could try to set up ambushes or try for better positioning. Your addon makes any kind of positioning irrelevant, not to mention it makes it so you can run full tilt forward and get all needed information about when to dodge without even having to look behind you, so you can maximize your running away speed.

Let me specify that by default interface in that premise i meant both hud and gameworld. So the premise can be rephrased as my reply above: 'why would we assume that attacks cues being in the gameworld only is the best way of informing the player about them?'

Answering to the alledged futulity of ambushes i agree that ambushes became harder to capitalize on (since players react faster), but i disagree on their uselessness, because it much easier and faster to recognize a threat if you can see it clearly and especcially if you had some time to observe it before reacting. So ambushes still provide a considerable advantage even though arguably of a lesser degree.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

4) Again, as stated in 1, your program doesn't outsource anything, rather, it cuts interactions from the games to make it easier for the player using your addon.

I disagree that it cuts the interactions. They are still there, exactly as they are without the addon. You just have an additional set of sensory cues on your screen.

Making it easier part is totally correct, though:) That's the whole point.

Avran_Sylt

I guess I should clarify what is annoying me with this program you've created:
It allows to player to access information that isn't readily available to them via any means provided to them. I understand why it'd be nice if the enemy player is on your screen, there I have no problem with it.

The issue I have is that it provides visual confirmation of something which isn't actually displayed on your screen at any point in time. There is absolutely no way for a player who is looking forward to know that there is another player a distance behind them. The base game does not provide any way for the player to have "eyes on the back of their head" if that player is not on their screen.

But, because you can exploit whatever API code you can access to tell you when an attack or player is targeting you, even when they are not on screen, you get an alert when an attack is incoming. It gives the player a "6th Sense" at all times. regardless of where the enemy is. Rather than getting hit by the attack from behind, and twirling around to fight the enemy, you're given confirmation of an incoming attack visually and are given the opportunity to dodge immediately from that visual stimulus rather than 'hearing' the attack go off.

So yes, in part, an auditory confirmation would likely be better. However, not in the way you describe. Having an auditory cue that is something like "Snipe" is far too specific, it gives the player too much information out of such an ambiguous sound as an elemental crackle or the twang of the bowstring. If it was the twang of a bowstring, launch of a fireball/ice ball, that'd be a better step. However, then you'd need to adjust the pitch based on distance. Once you've done all this, then you have just what is already in the game, an audio cue from the direction of the enemy (ability sounds). A cue that should be masked by the cacophony of battle around you. Something only to be easily heard while off on your own, in a quiet area.

Now, onto your complaint of the HUD. Why can we see our own health bar? our stamina, our magicka? It isn't relevance or anything, it's what the character would sense themselves. Can you feel how exhausted you are? Can you feel good? Bad? Are you able to have a clouded/exhausted mind? Your ultimate is visual because its a part of your character. These are things that cannot be conveyed to the player very easily with visual or audible feedbaack. and so ZOS decided that it would be best as the HUD. Since attacks have sounds, as do abilities, those and the animations themselves are the cues you should use, as they are implemented into the game

Now, admittedly, I don't like that you can see the exact hp value of enemies at all times. In my opinion, it should only ever be an approximation

incoming attacks from in front of you, yes, should be visible, but if they are from off-screen, an addon should not make that attack visible, it should leave it as it is. Auditory. and if that audio is drowned out by battle or other sounds? well, then so it is.

Dorrino

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I guess I should clarify what is annoying me with this program you've created:
It allows to player to access information that isn't readily available to them via any means provided to them. I understand why it'd be nice if the enemy player is on your screen, there I have no problem with it.

Just like literally any interface addition (i.e addon). The whole point of interface additions is exactly to 'allow the player to access information that isn't readily available to them via any means provided to them'. So this cannot be the reason to dislike specifically what my addon does. It is the reason to dislike all the addons altogether. So let's figure out this matter first.

So what are we discussing exactly? Whether we like an option to customize interface and to provide ' information that isn't readily available to them via any means provided to them' as a whole or we discuss specifically that type of information this particular addon provides?

Because many people's arguments (yours is not an exception) mix up these two problems left and right.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

The issue I have is that it provides visual confirmation of something which isn't actually displayed on your screen at any point in time.

Just like at least half of the addons out there. The other half simply changes the way existing information in the vanilla ui is displayed.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

There is absolutely no way for a player who is looking forward to know that there is another player a distance behind them.

The addon never informs the player that 'there is another player a distance behind them'. The addon doesn't (and can't) possess this information.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

The base game does not provide any way for the player to have "eyes on the back of their head" if that player is not on their screen.

Just like the addon.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

But, because you can exploit whatever API code you can access to tell you when an attack or player is targeting you

There's no way to know if another player is targeting you.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

, even when they are not on screen, you get an alert when an attack is incoming.

Only when this attack has started. And the reason for that is that the game informs players about all things that are related to them specifically.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

It gives the player a "6th Sense" at all times. regardless of where the enemy is.

This is correct, but once again don't forget that the player STILL has no idea where the attacker is. He is only informed about the fact of the attack.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Rather than getting hit by the attack from behind, and twirling around to fight the enemy, you're given confirmation of an incoming attack visually and are given the opportunity to dodge immediately from that visual stimulus rather than 'hearing' the attack go off.

Exactly.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Having an auditory cue that is something like "Snipe" is far too specific, it gives the player too much information out of such an ambiguous sound as an elemental crackle or the twang of the bowstring.

Please provide a justification why this approach is so much better than alternatives that we should discard the alternatives.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

If it was the twang of a bowstring, launch of a fireball/ice ball, that'd be a better step.

Why?

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

However, then you'd need to adjust the pitch based on distance.

Why? Especially considering this is not possible to do, because it would give out the distance to the attacker, which, by zos design is 'giving out too much information':P

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Once you've done all this, then you have just what is already in the game, an audio cue from the direction of the enemy (ability sounds).

Then why would i want to do that?

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

A cue that should be masked by the cacophony of battle around you.
Something only to be easily heard while off on your own, in a quiet area.

Please provide a justification why this approach is so much better than alternatives that we should discard the alternatives.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

These are things that cannot be conveyed to the player very easily with visual or audible feedbaack.

Just like attacks from behind, right?:)

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Since attacks have sounds, as do abilities, those and the animations themselves are the cues you should use, as they are implemented into the game

Please provide a justification why this approach is so much better than alternatives that we should discard the alternatives.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Now, admittedly, I don't like that you can see the exact hp value of enemies at all times. In my opinion, it should only ever be an approximation

You have an option to make them this way.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

if they are from off-screen, an addon should not make that attack visible, it should leave it as it is. Auditory. and if that audio is drowned out by battle or other sounds? well, then so it is.

Please provide a justification why this approach is so much better than alternatives that we should discard the alternatives.

And i'm not even trolling with this phase. I literally don't understand both why these are better and why these are so EXCEEDINGLY better that we want to disallow any alternatives. Please elaborate.

Avran_Sylt

Okay. I want to ask you this. maybe you'll see my point of view. I can see yours, and why you would want to make it easier for players to be able to dodge these kinds of attacks, to make this kind of information more visible. You have a different vision for how players should respond to their environment than there currently is. I get that. However, what would your feelings be on this kind of combat interface:

It is an addon, where you can drag and drop ability icons into a UI in a combination of abilities to form a rotation. then, when you reload the ui, whenever combat starts, this order pops up along the top of your screen. a bar scrolls across these icons and prompts the user to press the corresponding key to which the ability is bound, once reaching the end it loops. At any point in time when there are attacks incoming, the background behind this top flashes a different color corresponding to the severity of attack (immobilization, heavy) and prompts the user to either block, dodgeroll, or use a shield (if a DoT to negate any DoT effects). If you have certain abilities slotted, and it recognizes that these abilities would counter some of the enemies abilities, it will prompt the user to use those abilities (I E crushing shock) while the caster is performing the animation . It will also inform the user of the approximate armor values of the target as well, and their resistances and weaknesses. Also, when an enemy uses a cloak ability, it provides a 3D pin on the map that points the direction which they were last moving. Also has a moving 3D pin above the heads of any hostile players. These pins would also have different sizes based on the health of the player they hover over.

TheBonesXXX

Anything in italics is belongs to you Miat.

Because many people's arguments (yours is not an exception) mix up these two problems left and right.

Your responses indicate that you either a) do not know how perception works or b) know how it works very well and continue to defend yourself even though your arguments are the most mixed up.

Just like at least half of the addons out there. The other half simply changes the way existing information in the vanilla ui is displayed.


No information in the UI informs players of movement.

The addon never informs the player that 'there is another player a distance behind them'. The addon doesn't (and can't) possess this information.

No, they're going to KNOW there is a player a distance behind them should they scan for attacking player because their eyes will be able to track the angle of the attack back to its source should they be within their FOV.

There's no way to know if another player is targeting you.

A player must be targeted in order to start an attack -_-


Only when this attack has started. And the reason for that is that the game informs players about all things that are related to them specifically.

After animation completion, no ones gonna be able to roll dodge a Snipe from stealth otherwise. The game gives no indication that a Snipe is coming your way in the first attack.

This is correct, but once again don't forget that the player STILL has no idea where the attacker is. He is only informed about the fact of the attack.

Still alerted to the fact they're targeted and in the midst of being attacked without knowing it otherwise because it is not humanly possible. Which allows them to dodge roll and completely mitigate an attack that they naturally cannot do otherwise, that's not how human perception works.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Rather than getting hit by the attack from behind, and twirling around to fight the enemy, you're given confirmation of an incoming attack visually and are given the opportunity to dodge immediately from that visual stimulus rather than 'hearing' the attack go off.

Exactly.

Visual stimulus that is not the attack itself, which means the player did not detect it; the add-on did and alerted the player.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

These are things that cannot be conveyed to the player very easily with visual or audible feedbaack.

Just like attacks from behind, right?:)


Which is.. kid of the point of ambushing, sniping, guerilla tactics.. which is negated by an add-on that provides a stimulus that is otherwise not in the game itself, a player would have never detected these attacks by themselves, which is kind of the point of attacking from behind. -_-

Dorrino

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Okay. I want to ask you this. maybe you'll see my point of view.

I see you point, you explained it quite clear.

What i don't see are 2 things:

1. Why exactly you prefer this approach over any other approach? I'd understand if that would be something like 'you see, i like the obscurity in the combat for reasons 1,2,3, but i do understand people who hate it'. But a straight-up 'this is the ONLY correct way to perceive information' sounds a bit weird.

2. Why would you not allow OTHER PEOPLE to play it differently? They are not you after all, they don't automate the game, they press all the buttons religiously.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

You have a different vision for how players should respond to their environment than there currently is.

Even more, zos mostly shares this view, because that's what they decided to provide. They might change their minds, but until then this is what their design choice is.

Speaking of it, did you know that while in the 1st person the game show you the direction of enemy attacks?:) So you're hit from behind and the vanilla interface tells you that 'bruh, you just got hit from behind! Not form a side, straight form behind!'. I'll look at it at some point and see if i can make these work in 3rd person as well.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

It is an addon, where you can drag and drop ability icons into a UI in a combination of abilities to form a rotation. then, when you reload the ui, whenever combat starts, this order pops up along the top of your screen. a bar scrolls across these icons and prompts the user to press the corresponding key to which the ability is bound, once reaching the end it loops

Half of WoW dps addons do EXACTLY what you described here. The reason why nobody did it here is laziness and lack of cds in ESO. So performing rotations is really easy here without addons.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

. At any point in time when there are attacks incoming, the background behind this top flashes a different color corresponding to the severity of attack (immobilization, heavy) and prompts the user to either block, dodgeroll, or use a shield (if a DoT to negate any DoT effects).

Vanilla UI along with combat cloud/ftc etc already do this.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

If you have certain abilities slotted, and it recognizes that these abilities would counter some of the enemies abilities, it will prompt the user to use those abilities (I E crushing shock) while the caster is performing the animation .

Semi possible to do. Not really worth it.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

It will also inform the user of the approximate armor values of the target as well, and their resistances and weaknesses.

If that was possible i'd show these in a heartbeat, but most importantly enemy resources values. But unfortunately the deisgn is against it:(

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Also, when an enemy uses a cloak ability, it provides a 3D pin on the map that points the direction which they were last moving.

This is a brilliant idea. I'd even added a 3d icon above that place. But it's not possible:(

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Also has a moving 3D pin above the heads of any hostile players.

Ghrm, actually vanilla interface has exactly this:)

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

These pins would also have different sizes based on the health of the player they hover over.

And this would be really awesome to do. Additionally i'd definitely make separate icons for healers.

Avran_Sylt

Dorrino wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I guess I should clarify what is annoying me with this program you've created:
It allows to player to access information that isn't readily available to them via any means provided to them. I understand why it'd be nice if the enemy player is on your screen, there I have no problem with it.

Just like literally any interface addition (i.e addon). The whole point of interface additions is exactly to 'allow the player to access information that isn't readily available to them via any means provided to them'. So this cannot be the reason to dislike specifically what my addon does. It is the reason to dislike all the addons altogether. So let's figure out this matter first.

So what are we discussing exactly? Whether we like an option to customize interface and to provide ' information that isn't readily available to them via any means provided to them' as a whole or we discuss specifically that type of information this particular addon provides?

Because many people's arguments (yours is not an exception) mix up these two problems left and right.

What we are talking about is the information this addon provides.

Dorrino wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

The issue I have is that it provides visual confirmation of something which isn't actually displayed on your screen at any point in time.

Just like at least half of the addons out there. The other half simply changes the way existing information in the vanilla ui is displayed.

They are ability timers. and yes, each and every ability in this game that has a duration has a visual element associated with it. That is why I don't have a problem with them.

Dorrino wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

There is absolutely no way for a player who is looking forward to know that there is another player a distance behind them.

The addon never informs the player that 'there is another player a distance behind them'. The addon doesn't (and can't) possess this information.

if there is no one in front of you, and you get the dodge now prompt, by deduction it tells the player there is someone behind them

Dorrino wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

The base game does not provide any way for the player to have "eyes on the back of their head" if that player is not on their screen.

Just like the addon.

Except when it comes to attacks from behind

Dorrino wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

But, because you can exploit whatever API code you can access to tell you when an attack or player is targeting you

There's no way to know if another player is targeting you.

Then why does the Dodge now prompt appear? is that not resultant from a player targeting you with an ability?

Dorrino wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

, even when they are not on screen, you get an alert when an attack is incoming.

Only when this attack has started. And the reason for that is that the game informs players about all things that are related to them specifically.

Yes, but if it isn't on the screen because it is ranged, should the player be alerted to this even though there is no way without this addon that the player would know there is an incoming ranged attack?

Dorrino wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

It gives the player a "6th Sense" at all times. regardless of where the enemy is.

This is correct, but once again don't forget that the player STILL has no idea where the attacker is. He is only informed about the fact of the attack.

True, but if the player did not have this addon an attack from the back would leave the victim anaware of it until it hit, with this addon the victim is aware of it.

Dorrino wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Rather than getting hit by the attack from behind, and twirling around to fight the enemy, you're given confirmation of an incoming attack visually and are given the opportunity to dodge immediately from that visual stimulus rather than 'hearing' the attack go off.

Exactly.

but you can't hear everything from all distances away

Dorrino wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Having an auditory cue that is something like "Snipe" is far too specific, it gives the player too much information out of such an ambiguous sound as an elemental crackle or the twang of the bowstring.

Please provide a justification why this approach is so much better than alternatives that we should discard the alternatives.

This is personal preference.

Dorrino wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

If it was the twang of a bowstring, launch of a fireball/ice ball, that'd be a better step.

Why?

Personal preference

Dorrino wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

However, then you'd need to adjust the pitch based on distance.

Why? Especially considering this is not possible to do, because it would give out the distance to the attacker, which, by zos design is 'giving out too much information':P

Why? because a slight tap on the ground heard from 50m away because you have this addon is and advantage.

Dorrino wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Once you've done all this, then you have just what is already in the game, an audio cue from the direction of the enemy (ability sounds).

Then why would i want to do that?

You wouldn't. which is what I'm getting at.

Dorrino wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

A cue that should be masked by the cacophony of battle around you.
Something only to be easily heard while off on your own, in a quiet area.

Please provide a justification why this approach is so much better than alternatives that we should discard the alternatives.

Please provide justification as to why you have only dodge now and not block now for every single light attack and any incoming damage from any source.

Dorrino wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

These are things that cannot be conveyed to the player very easily with visual or audible feedbaack.

Just like attacks from behind, right?:)

Right, but you are not attacking yourself from behind, you don't know it is occurring. You do know if you are exhausted however, you are aware of that.

Dorrino wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Since attacks have sounds, as do abilities, those and the animations themselves are the cues you should use, as they are implemented into the game

Please provide a justification why this approach is so much better than alternatives that we should discard the alternatives.

An attack is two parts, visual, and audible. if the person is in front of you, you see it and hear it. if they are not visible you hear it. Your alternative is to see every attack even if you cannot see the person or the attack.

Dorrino wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Now, admittedly, I don't like that you can see the exact hp value of enemies at all times. In my opinion, it should only ever be an approximation

You have an option to make them this way.

It is still exact, it just doesn't show a percentage.

Dorrino wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

if they are from off-screen, an addon should not make that attack visible, it should leave it as it is. Auditory. and if that audio is drowned out by battle or other sounds? well, then so it is.

Please provide a justification why this approach is so much better than alternatives that we should discard the alternatives.

And i'm not even trolling with this phase. I literally don't understand both why these are better and why these are so EXCEEDINGLY better that we want to disallow any alternatives. Please elaborate.

I'm fine with alternatives. I am not fine with alternatives that make displayed info that is not rendered due to player orientation visible to the player.

Avran_Sylt

Dorrino wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Okay. I want to ask you this. maybe you'll see my point of view.

I see you point, you explained it quite clear.

What i don't see are 2 things:

1. Why exactly you prefer this approach over any other approach? I'd understand if that would be something like 'you see, i like the obscurity in the combat for reasons 1,2,3, but i do understand people who hate it'. But a straight-up 'this is the ONLY correct way to perceive information' sounds a bit weird.

2. Why would you not allow OTHER PEOPLE to play it differently? They are not you after all, they don't automate the game, they press all the buttons religiously.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

You have a different vision for how players should respond to their environment than there currently is.

Even more, zos mostly shares this view, because that's what they decided to provide. They might change their minds, but until then this is what their design choice is.

Speaking of it, did you know that while in the 1st person the game show you the direction of enemy attacks?:) So you're hit from behind and the vanilla interface tells you that 'bruh, you just got hit from behind! Not form a side, straight form behind!'. I'll look at it at some point and see if i can make these work in 3rd person as well.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

It is an addon, where you can drag and drop ability icons into a UI in a combination of abilities to form a rotation. then, when you reload the ui, whenever combat starts, this order pops up along the top of your screen. a bar scrolls across these icons and prompts the user to press the corresponding key to which the ability is bound, once reaching the end it loops

Half of WoW dps addons do EXACTLY what you described here. The reason why nobody did it here is laziness and lack of cds in ESO. So performing rotations is really easy here without addons.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

. At any point in time when there are attacks incoming, the background behind this top flashes a different color corresponding to the severity of attack (immobilization, heavy) and prompts the user to either block, dodgeroll, or use a shield (if a DoT to negate any DoT effects).

Vanilla UI along with combat cloud/ftc etc already do this.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

If you have certain abilities slotted, and it recognizes that these abilities would counter some of the enemies abilities, it will prompt the user to use those abilities (I E crushing shock) while the caster is performing the animation .

Semi possible to do. Not really worth it.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

It will also inform the user of the approximate armor values of the target as well, and their resistances and weaknesses.

If that was possible i'd show these in a heartbeat, but most importantly enemy resources values. But unfortunately the deisgn is against it:(

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Also, when an enemy uses a cloak ability, it provides a 3D pin on the map that points the direction which they were last moving.

This is a brilliant idea. I'd even added a 3d icon above that place. But it's not possible:(

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Also has a moving 3D pin above the heads of any hostile players.

Ghrm, actually vanilla interface has exactly this:)

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

These pins would also have different sizes based on the health of the player they hover over.

And this would be really awesome to do. Additionally i'd definitely make separate icons for healers.

I prefer a single unified approach, because then you can actually try and anticipate player actions. otherwise it's just a shitshow of just hoping what you do works.

sure, they can play it differently, but if the difference in the way they play gives them an edge against other players such that their way is the better way, that's where I have a problem. larger more prominent visual cues that make it easier to block and whatnot make that players experience easier/better.

yes, in first person it shows a damage indicator, after the fact not before. you get hit by something, you know what direction you got hit from.

and on the thing of approximate resistances, can't you just calculate approximate mitigation by checking tooltip values against actual damage values that might be returned via a combat addon?

Dorrino

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

What we are talking about is the information this addon provides.

Alright, then we will keep this in mind and from now on i'll assume that you're fine with showing something, not provided by vanilla ui.

Then a natural question will be how the notifications in question (not provided in vanilla ui, but available through game's API) are different from:
- Master Merchant or Awesome Guild Store (guild stores information and search options not provided in vanilla ui);
- buff/debuff trackers being able to track ground aoes durations and set of buffs not provided by vanilla ui;
- Skyshards/Treasure Maps/Destinations etc each providing information not available in vanilla ui;
- Sieged Keeps providing number of sieges at a keep (AFIAK this is not a feature of vanilla ui as well);

Etc, etc, etc.

Each of them extends the ui beyond it's original functionality, just what addons are supposed to do. Why suddenly my notifications are so much different if time after time we see that they do NOT provide an advantage over somebody not using the addon?

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

They are ability timers. and yes, each and every ability in this game that has a duration has a visual element associated with it. That is why I don't have a problem with them.

See above. There's much more that doesn't have and never had visual equivalent in vanilla ui.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

if there is no one in front of you, and you get the dodge now prompt, by deduction it tells the player there is someone behind them

Yep, so it's a derived information instead of something directly provided by the addon.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Except when it comes to attacks from behind

This is your assumption that it comes from behind. You might have missed the guy in front of you. From here on you need to apply a healthy dose of situational awareness and general P&A.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Then why does the Dodge now prompt appear? is that not resultant from a player targeting you with an ability?

Targeting and attacking are 2 different things. I specified that the addon can't warn about anybody targeting you as long as he doesn't attack you.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Yes, but if it isn't on the screen because it is ranged, should the player be alerted to this even though there is no way without this addon that the player would know there is an incoming ranged attack?

Definitely yes, because this attack is directed at him. As i said above multiple times that fact that vanilla ui sometimes doesn't provide this information is a limitation of the said ui, but fortunately addons can make it up for that.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

True, but if the player did not have this addon an attack from the back would leave the victim anaware of it until it hit, with this addon the victim is aware of it.

Right as the addon was designed. It's a design choice above all else. That's what it supposed to do.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

but you can't hear everything from all distances away

In vanilla ui (besides the times it glitches) you are supposed to hear anything that attacks you.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

This is personal preference.

Gotcha, not a point of discussion then.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Personal preference

Gotcha, not a point of discussion then.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Why? because a slight tap on the ground heard from 50m away because you have this addon is and advantage.

Knowing the distance to the surprise attacker is arguably even better advantage. At least that what zos thinks.

Dorrino wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

A cue that should be masked by the cacophony of battle around you.
Something only to be easily heard while off on your own, in a quiet area.

Please provide a justification why this approach is so much better than alternatives that we should discard the alternatives.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Please provide justification as to why you have only dodge now and not block now for every single light attack and any incoming damage from any source.

Answering a question with a similar question doesn't really answers it:)

Nevertheless if i understood you question, it's definitely possible to make notifications for any damage coming to you, it's just too spammy and thus pointless.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Right, but you are not attacking yourself from behind, you don't know it is occurring. You do know if you are exhausted however, you are aware of that.

Do i know if i'm at 95% of stam?:) But yeah, i remember, you're against that as well. Personal choice:)

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

An attack is two parts, visual, and audible. if the person is in front of you, you see it and hear it. if they are not visible you hear it. Your alternative is to see every attack even if you cannot see the person or the attack.

Yep. You still haven't provided a justification why this approach is worse and why it has to be disallowed.

You said multiple times that if you can't see it you shouldn't know about it, but never said WHY:)

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

It is still exact, it just doesn't show a percentage.

I can make an addon that does exactly that for you:)

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I'm fine with alternatives. I am not fine with alternatives that make displayed info that is not rendered due to player orientation visible to the player.

Yes, but why?:)

And why if you don't like it (personal choice) you want to prevent other people to enjoy it?

Dorrino

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I prefer a single unified approach, because then you can actually try and anticipate player actions. otherwise it's just a shitshow of just hoping what you do works.

That's fine to prefer unified approach, but why does it have to be YOUR unified approach?:P

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

sure, they can play it differently, but if the difference in the way they play gives them an edge against other players such that their way is the better way, that's where I have a problem. larger more prominent visual cues that make it easier to block and whatnot make that players experience easier/better.

Times and times we see that these notifications don't matter in 1v1. Times and times we see that this 'advantage' is an advantage of better defense and the only frustration of other people is that they might have harder time to kill the guy, not to die to the guy. And we're still there:( At an 'edge against other players'. *sighs*

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

and on the thing of approximate resistances, can't you just calculate approximate mitigation by checking tooltip values against actual damage values that might be returned via a combat addon?

Actually i had this exact idea after you mentioned that. This should not be straightforward for various reasons, but definitely possible. Thank you for this idea!:)

Avran_Sylt

@Dorrino
It doesn't have to be my unified approach, just when addons provide multiple approaches is when the problem starts.

Also, in the case that it's a dodge now scenario, where you deduce the attacker is behind you because of the dodge now, or the icon showing what ability they are charging up and you can't see anyone in front of you. that is derrived off of information that your addon makes visual

Anyway,
Few things I want to ask you first. I just perused your addon page on esoui.com

Is this still in effect:

1. Attacks notification. Each channeled attack in the game has a start time(when the button is pressed) and an end time (when the attack actually fires). The addon provides an on-screen notification when a channelled attack against the player starts. This notification has the icon of the attack's ability and the name of the player initiating the attack.

Attacks being tracked are : all heavy attacks (besides lightning staff and restoration staff), Snipe (Focused Aim, Lethal Arrow), Uppercut (Dizzying Swing, Wrecking Blow), Dark Flare/Solar Flare, hard-casted Crystal Fragments, Assassin's Will/Scourge, Ambush and Lotus Fan.

Ambush, Lotus Fan, Fire/Frost destruction staves and Bow heavy attacks are shown from stealth only.

As a bonus feature the addon shows Piercing Mark application along with the name of the player who applied it.

Attacks from a stealthed player are registered separately and have a special animation along with a sound.

and: if someone were to rotate their arm while they stood 10 feet behind you, would you notice it while looking ahead?

Dorrino

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Anyway,
Few things I want to ask you first. I just perused your addon page on esoui.com

All channels work not from stealth.

I have a question for you though. Do i understand it correctly and you haven't even played with the addon before criticizing it?

Avran_Sylt

Also, what value in particular do you use when checking for channeled attacks?

Avran_Sylt

@Dorrino
Yep. you hit the nail on the head. never used it. only played against players who use it. Namely you in battlegrounds. Surprised you didn't get that.

Avran_Sylt

And, boy oh boy. I have a lot more flak that I'm gonna throw your way now that I know how it actually works.

Dorrino

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

And, boy oh boy. I have a lot more flak that I'm gonna throw your way now that I know how it actually works.

Unfortunately for you, now i see no point discussing the addon with you. Please get back to me when you spent 2-3 days playing with it.

All the best!

Avran_Sylt

So, what you mean to tell me, that no matter the direction, if someone even begins to start a ranged heavy attack at you it tells you exactly what kind of attack it is, if it is stamina (bow) or magicka (staff)?