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Did you play during 1.0 - 1.5? And did you prefer it to PvP in Homestead?

  • Hexys
    Hexys
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    I did not play during 1.0 - 1.5 and prefer 1.0 - 1.5 PvP to PvP in Homestead
    All that I hear from almost everyone is how awesome 1.5 was, with the exception of magicka dk being a little bit over the top. So with some extra care, yes!
    Astrum | Daggerfall Covenan | EU-PC
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  • Publius_Scipio
    Publius_Scipio
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    Atropos? Fixate and Nicolle? Blade Boques? Pixy Stix? Teapot? Columba? Lowbei? Publius Scipio? Moon PiE? WRX? Zergbad (The Now) Exterminatored? Brizz and Zazebra's romance? Ezareth? All the guilds that lasted only 4 months? The Shoddy Cast elf brothers? Angry Joe? Anonymous Elf? Crystalized? Senior Fluffykins? Brandon South Georgia and EG? Skaffa and Murder Thumbs eloping in secret?
  • ToRelax
    ToRelax
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    I did play during 1.0 - 1.5 and prefer it to PvP in Homestead
    ToRelax wrote: »
    loki547 wrote: »
    I think nostalgia is fueling a lot of this. There were so many broken things in those days, no build diversity, 1 Mag DK could wipe 10+ people easily, ground oils, streaking through 5 people and getting my Negate up instantly, perma bats, everyone a vamp in light armor, using 1h+shield, destro or resto.

    There were also way more people playing back in those days. So you had your zerg fights on the map but you could also roam in a group of 4-5 and find other groups with similiar numbers. I only played on Wabbajack, which was the only real competitive server back then. I love when I see people with titles of Former Emp of Auriel's Bow or whatever, like 5 people on your server so easy to get Emp or even worse get it passed to you. People leaving the game because of lag killed small group play, not AOE caps.

    Homestead is fun because of build diversity. Yea people can sustain forever, who cares. You can build for damage and kill them in 2 hits so they can have their sustain ;) People can tank forever, good for them they can't damage you so ignore them. There's still a counter for everything. All this nostalgia about soft caps and 1.5 are from former Mag DK's that could leap into a keep and solo 10-20 players, not out of skill mind you, out of the brokenness of the class/game at the time. They want God mode back, sorry dudes ain't gonna happen.

    EDIT: on my phone and clicked the wrong button, have played since open beta.

    This is basically a collection of strawman arguments and ad hominem fallacies.

    Uh. No where did he create a caricature of anyone's argument then misrepresent the that caricature as the actual argument, nor did he suggest someone's argument is wrong due to personal qualities. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean their arguments are fallacious :). They might be wrong, perhaps, but not fallacious. Stop rhetoric buzzwords 2017.

    Are you sure? Let's break it down:

    - Suggestion that "nostalgia is fueling a lot of this" -> accusation of bias, i.e. ad hominem argument on the basis of evidence to be provided in the post. If evidence will not be provided, it is a fallacy.
    - Same goes for accusation in the last sentence, "They want God mode back"

    - "Yea people can sustain forever, who cares. You can build for damage and kill them in 2 hits so they can have their sustain ;) People can tank forever, good for them they can't damage you so ignore them. There's still a counter for everything." - Takes the common argument that people can have too much sustain while also sporting high values of damage, survivabiliy etc. and equates it with the (hyperbole) statement that "people can sustain forever", trying to make it appear irrelevant ("who cares") by making claims about it's argumentational value (to make that clear, phrases like "unlimited resources" have been a placeholder for the former argument since 1.6 - Indeed, "who cares" if a build had *only* high regeneration?)
    The funny thing here is, these claims do not even help their position, as I outlined in my previous post, because they in fact introduce the missing part of that formerly misprepresented argument - just on the wrong side! ("I don't think it's a good thing if you can kill someone in two hits, a 'tank' can still set up bursts with Backlash, heal his allies and never run out of resources.")

    - Coming back to the nostalgia and "God mode" claims. Here the author of the post I initally responded to is collecting claims about how 1.5 differed from the current game. If these claims support his assertion that other people's arguments are to a large part fueled by nostalgia, and I happen to agree with the claims, I can accept them as evidence:
    "There were so many broken things in those days" - I don't think more or worse than now; we shall see whether the other claims will change my mind about it.
    "no build diversity" - As I mentioned in my previous post, "I find build diversity to be pretty lacking compared to 1.6/1.7". Though I would agree that there are still more viable builds at a player's disposal today than in 1.5, build diversity was still diminished in other ways, most notably concerning the viability of hybrid builds. If anything, I think praising today's build diversity is looking at the game with rose tinted glasses.
    "1 Mag DK could wipe 10+ people easily" / "All this nostalgia about soft caps and 1.5 are from former Mag DK's that could leap into a keep and solo 10-20 players, not out of skill mind you, out of the brokenness of the class/game at the time." - Again, as I outlined already, killing 10+/10-20 players by oneself did, in fact, require a large skill gap, so I can't agree with this claim at all. Furthermore, this part: "All this nostalgia about soft caps and 1.5 are from former Mag DK's [...]" either admits my arguments are not biased because of nostalgia or it is simply wrong, for in this case I actually have the proof of not being a former Mag DK.
    "ground oils" - personally, I am glad they're gone, but I remember many players of those wanting them back today already loving them at the time. That doesn't sound like nostalgia to me.
    "streaking through 5 people and getting my Negate up instantly" Once again, I outlined what's wrong with this statement before: "Streaking through 5 people didn't get your Negate up instantly unless it nearly was already - there was a time when Streak had no AoE cap, so you could get it up instantly by streaking through a raid/zerg - but even that didn't change anything about the effectiveness of streaking through 5. Moreover, you didn't generate a lot of ultimate at all if your opponents just blocked."
    "perma bats" - Only if one let's the enemy feed ultimate off unblocked attacks and kills, as well as aoe heals. At that point we are talking about the problems of the dynamic ult regen system though, which I already openly acknowledge (as do many other commenters here, I believe):
    ToRelax wrote: »
    Rickter wrote: »
    you guys forgot about how Critical Hits governed Ulti regen. and how a DK emp could drop a Standard of Super Might every 3-5 seconds.

    The dynamic ultimate system wasn't perfect, but we had tons of feedback about how to improve it, rather than scrap it atogether and introduce a static one in it's place. As for ultimate spamming, that just didn't happen if your group didn't stack up to be hit all at once or died like flies, feeding ultimate to the enemy. And if you could force the enemy into defense, their ult regen would be significantly reduced as well.
    "everyone a vamp in light armor, using 1h+shield, destro or resto." - Though there was a major imbalance between magicka and stamina builds, vampirism was not as prevalent in 1.5 as this comment makes it appear, at least not on the EU server. Vampirism synergized very well with magicka DK builds, which in turn were very commonplace due to several reasons, including low skill requirements for a decent level of survivability and high effectiveness when fighting many unexperienced players at once. Though vampirism could be useful on all classes, it also had it's downsides. I certainly wasn't in the majority as a vampire among Sorcerers, mainly using it for access to Clouding Swarm as a defensive ability.

    Overall, I don't see a good reason to assume arguments in this thread are in large part fueled by nostalgia, nor do I agree it is "God mode" people are after. Therefore, I see the original post I quoted as an attack against the "personal qualities" of other commenters - and that in very bad taste.
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    I did play during 1.0 - 1.5 and prefer it to PvP in Homestead
    loki547 wrote: »
    I think nostalgia is fueling a lot of this. There were so many broken things in those days, no build diversity, 1 Mag DK could wipe 10+ people easily, ground oils, streaking through 5 people and getting my Negate up instantly, perma bats, everyone a vamp in light armor, using 1h+shield, destro or resto.

    There were also way more people playing back in those days. So you had your zerg fights on the map but you could also roam in a group of 4-5 and find other groups with similiar numbers. I only played on Wabbajack, which was the only real competitive server back then. I love when I see people with titles of Former Emp of Auriel's Bow or whatever, like 5 people on your server so easy to get Emp or even worse get it passed to you. People leaving the game because of lag killed small group play, not AOE caps.

    Homestead is fun because of build diversity. Yea people can sustain forever, who cares. You can build for damage and kill them in 2 hits so they can have their sustain ;) People can tank forever, good for them they can't damage you so ignore them. There's still a counter for everything. All this nostalgia about soft caps and 1.5 are from former Mag DK's that could leap into a keep and solo 10-20 players, not out of skill mind you, out of the brokenness of the class/game at the time. They want God mode back, sorry dudes ain't gonna happen.

    EDIT: on my phone and clicked the wrong button, have played since open beta.

    While I agree with you that there is generally a lot of nostalgia about 1.5, there is an equal amount of misremembered horror stories about DKs. Sure, at Launch it wasn't fun fighting MurderThumbs. But by 1.5, balance changes and L2P issues (i.e. not standing in banner firing projectiles) began to solve OP DK issues. The biggest issue had with 1.5 was not strong DKs, but rather how pathetic sorcerers were excepting its Negate ultimate.

    I voted for pre 1.6 not because I want God mode back, rather I think 50% BattleSpirit is flawed, I dislike ultimates on a timer, it was possible to run something of a hyrbid then, and all fights are in Homestead are CC+burst.
    Edited by Joy_Division on March 14, 2017 5:12PM
  • Skyy
    Skyy
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    I did play during 1.0 - 1.5 and do not prefer it to PvP in Homestead
    I wish there was an option for a more neutral sounding vote. I didn't prefer it, but I don't prefer now either. I think they both had/have serious issues and a lot could be done to fix them.
  • No_True_Scotsman
    No_True_Scotsman
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    I did play during 1.0 - 1.5 and prefer it to PvP in Homestead
    ToRelax wrote: »
    ToRelax wrote: »
    loki547 wrote: »
    I think nostalgia is fueling a lot of this. There were so many broken things in those days, no build diversity, 1 Mag DK could wipe 10+ people easily, ground oils, streaking through 5 people and getting my Negate up instantly, perma bats, everyone a vamp in light armor, using 1h+shield, destro or resto.

    There were also way more people playing back in those days. So you had your zerg fights on the map but you could also roam in a group of 4-5 and find other groups with similiar numbers. I only played on Wabbajack, which was the only real competitive server back then. I love when I see people with titles of Former Emp of Auriel's Bow or whatever, like 5 people on your server so easy to get Emp or even worse get it passed to you. People leaving the game because of lag killed small group play, not AOE caps.

    Homestead is fun because of build diversity. Yea people can sustain forever, who cares. You can build for damage and kill them in 2 hits so they can have their sustain ;) People can tank forever, good for them they can't damage you so ignore them. There's still a counter for everything. All this nostalgia about soft caps and 1.5 are from former Mag DK's that could leap into a keep and solo 10-20 players, not out of skill mind you, out of the brokenness of the class/game at the time. They want God mode back, sorry dudes ain't gonna happen.

    EDIT: on my phone and clicked the wrong button, have played since open beta.

    This is basically a collection of strawman arguments and ad hominem fallacies.

    Uh. No where did he create a caricature of anyone's argument then misrepresent the that caricature as the actual argument, nor did he suggest someone's argument is wrong due to personal qualities. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean their arguments are fallacious :). They might be wrong, perhaps, but not fallacious. Stop rhetoric buzzwords 2017.

    Are you sure? Let's break it down:

    - Suggestion that "nostalgia is fueling a lot of this" -> accusation of bias, i.e. ad hominem argument on the basis of evidence to be provided in the post. If evidence will not be provided, it is a fallacy.
    - Same goes for accusation in the last sentence, "They want God mode back"

    An ad hominem argument would be stating the arguments of those people are fallacious because of nostalgia. He's not saying they're wrong. He's accusing them of bias. That is ad hominem, i.e. an accusation, but it is not an ad hominem argument because he's not refuting any argument because of due anyone's personal qualities. Also ad hominem arguments, contrary to popular internet opinion, are not always fallacious. If someone tries to argue something by resting on their laurels -- e.g. argument from authority -- it is perfectly valid to question their, or their source's, expertise.

    Tamerlin thinks nostalgia, as opposed to the fact of the matter, fuels the longing for 1.5. How has he suggested that anyone's argument is wrong because they're nostalgic? This seems pretty cut and dry tbh.

    "They want God mode back" is not a caricature of any argument. Suggesting that it is is pretty silly, actually. A strawman argument gives the impression of refuting an argument, but actually addresses an argument that was not advanced by the person in question, hence building a "straw man" to attack instead of the actual substance.

    In fact I don't think that post was arguing against anything in specific. You can't just throw out rhetoric buzzwords and expect them to stick.

    Edited by No_True_Scotsman on March 14, 2017 5:43PM
  • ToRelax
    ToRelax
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    I did play during 1.0 - 1.5 and prefer it to PvP in Homestead
    ToRelax wrote: »
    ToRelax wrote: »
    loki547 wrote: »
    I think nostalgia is fueling a lot of this. There were so many broken things in those days, no build diversity, 1 Mag DK could wipe 10+ people easily, ground oils, streaking through 5 people and getting my Negate up instantly, perma bats, everyone a vamp in light armor, using 1h+shield, destro or resto.

    There were also way more people playing back in those days. So you had your zerg fights on the map but you could also roam in a group of 4-5 and find other groups with similiar numbers. I only played on Wabbajack, which was the only real competitive server back then. I love when I see people with titles of Former Emp of Auriel's Bow or whatever, like 5 people on your server so easy to get Emp or even worse get it passed to you. People leaving the game because of lag killed small group play, not AOE caps.

    Homestead is fun because of build diversity. Yea people can sustain forever, who cares. You can build for damage and kill them in 2 hits so they can have their sustain ;) People can tank forever, good for them they can't damage you so ignore them. There's still a counter for everything. All this nostalgia about soft caps and 1.5 are from former Mag DK's that could leap into a keep and solo 10-20 players, not out of skill mind you, out of the brokenness of the class/game at the time. They want God mode back, sorry dudes ain't gonna happen.

    EDIT: on my phone and clicked the wrong button, have played since open beta.

    This is basically a collection of strawman arguments and ad hominem fallacies.

    Uh. No where did he create a caricature of anyone's argument then misrepresent the that caricature as the actual argument, nor did he suggest someone's argument is wrong due to personal qualities. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean their arguments are fallacious :). They might be wrong, perhaps, but not fallacious. Stop rhetoric buzzwords 2017.

    Are you sure? Let's break it down:

    - Suggestion that "nostalgia is fueling a lot of this" -> accusation of bias, i.e. ad hominem argument on the basis of evidence to be provided in the post. If evidence will not be provided, it is a fallacy.
    - Same goes for accusation in the last sentence, "They want God mode back"

    And ad hominem argument would be stating the arguments of those people are fallacious because of nostalgia. He's not saying they're wrong. He's accusing them of bias. That is ad hominem, i.e. an accusation, but it is not an ad hominem argument because he's not refuting any argument because of the qualities of the interlocutor.

    "They want God mode back" is not a caricature of any argument. Suggesting that it is is pretty silly, actually.

    In fact I don't think that post was arguing against anything in specific. You can't just throw out rhetoric buzzwords and expect them to stick.

    He literally wrote "I think nostalgia is fueling a lot of this". If "this" is people's arguments why they think 1.5 was preferable to the current update, that does mean their arguments do not hold significant argumentational power (who's mixing that up with fallacious now?). And yes, ability to argue with as little bias as possible is a personal quality subjectible to ad hominem arguments. Which in turn are not necessarily fallacious if there were clear instances of the accused people's arguments being influenced by bias - which have yet to be pointed out.

    I also never stated that "They want God mode back" were a strawman argument. Misrepresenting concerns about inflated resources as just high regen builds that lack other stats, then outlining why such a build is not a problem with other, equally or more powerful builds around is, however.

    I think I've made my point clear enough. Make of it what you will.

    Edit: Just saw you updated your last post. Whatever.
    Edited by ToRelax on March 14, 2017 6:03PM
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • usmcjdking
    usmcjdking
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    IC release and a few weeks after was the PVP honeymoon period IMO.
    0331
    0602
  • Ishammael
    Ishammael
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    I did play during 1.0 - 1.5 and prefer it to PvP in Homestead
    .
    Edited by Ishammael on March 14, 2017 6:43PM
  • No_True_Scotsman
    No_True_Scotsman
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    I did play during 1.0 - 1.5 and prefer it to PvP in Homestead
    ToRelax wrote: »
    ToRelax wrote: »
    ToRelax wrote: »
    loki547 wrote: »
    I think nostalgia is fueling a lot of this. There were so many broken things in those days, no build diversity, 1 Mag DK could wipe 10+ people easily, ground oils, streaking through 5 people and getting my Negate up instantly, perma bats, everyone a vamp in light armor, using 1h+shield, destro or resto.

    There were also way more people playing back in those days. So you had your zerg fights on the map but you could also roam in a group of 4-5 and find other groups with similiar numbers. I only played on Wabbajack, which was the only real competitive server back then. I love when I see people with titles of Former Emp of Auriel's Bow or whatever, like 5 people on your server so easy to get Emp or even worse get it passed to you. People leaving the game because of lag killed small group play, not AOE caps.

    Homestead is fun because of build diversity. Yea people can sustain forever, who cares. You can build for damage and kill them in 2 hits so they can have their sustain ;) People can tank forever, good for them they can't damage you so ignore them. There's still a counter for everything. All this nostalgia about soft caps and 1.5 are from former Mag DK's that could leap into a keep and solo 10-20 players, not out of skill mind you, out of the brokenness of the class/game at the time. They want God mode back, sorry dudes ain't gonna happen.

    EDIT: on my phone and clicked the wrong button, have played since open beta.

    This is basically a collection of strawman arguments and ad hominem fallacies.

    Uh. No where did he create a caricature of anyone's argument then misrepresent the that caricature as the actual argument, nor did he suggest someone's argument is wrong due to personal qualities. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean their arguments are fallacious :). They might be wrong, perhaps, but not fallacious. Stop rhetoric buzzwords 2017.

    Are you sure? Let's break it down:

    - Suggestion that "nostalgia is fueling a lot of this" -> accusation of bias, i.e. ad hominem argument on the basis of evidence to be provided in the post. If evidence will not be provided, it is a fallacy.
    - Same goes for accusation in the last sentence, "They want God mode back"

    And ad hominem argument would be stating the arguments of those people are fallacious because of nostalgia. He's not saying they're wrong. He's accusing them of bias. That is ad hominem, i.e. an accusation, but it is not an ad hominem argument because he's not refuting any argument because of the qualities of the interlocutor.

    "They want God mode back" is not a caricature of any argument. Suggesting that it is is pretty silly, actually.

    In fact I don't think that post was arguing against anything in specific. You can't just throw out rhetoric buzzwords and expect them to stick.

    He literally wrote "I think nostalgia is fueling a lot of this". If "this" is people's arguments why they think 1.5 was preferable to the current update, that does mean their arguments do not hold significant argumentational power (who's mixing that up with fallacious now?). And yes, ability to argue with as little bias as possible is a personal quality subjectible to ad hominem arguments. Which in turn are not necessarily fallacious if there were clear instances of the accused people's arguments being influenced by bias - which have yet to be pointed out.

    I also never stated that "They want God mode back" were a strawman argument. Misrepresenting concerns about inflated resources as just high regen builds that lack other stats, then outlining why such a build is not a problem with other, equally or more powerful builds around is, however.

    I think I've made my point clear enough. Make of it what you will.

    Edit: Just saw you updated your last post. Whatever.

    Dude. He suggested nostalgia is fueling people's longing for 1.0 - 1.5. He is not even addressing an argument or suggesting those arguments they are wrong. He is opining that those longing are biased. You can't just start throwing around rhetorical terms to invalidate opinions; they are used in arguments. H is not addressing argumentative points. Save the attempts at rhetoric for an actual argument.

    You're trying to suggest that the statement "I think nostalgia is fueling a lot of this" is invalid because it's ad hominem. It's not even an argument that it could be fallacious for goodness sake. This is what happens with people think the rules of formal debate apply to every day conversation.

    And for the points that are actually statements of facts, he isn't writing those in refutation of anything. If you have an issue with them you'd have to demonstrate why they're not true. You'd have to be the one to demonstrate how they are wrong. Fallacious rhetoric isn't necessarily wrong either, just poorly argued :). So you're saying you have an issue with his logic, not whether or not his points are valid or not? Lol

    This conversation is silly anyways. People misusing rhetorical jargon just triggers me.
    Edited by No_True_Scotsman on March 14, 2017 7:10PM
  • loki547
    loki547
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    I did not play during 1.0 - 1.5 and I prefer PvP in Homestead rather than PvP in 1.0 - 1.5
    ToRelax wrote: »
    ToRelax wrote: »
    ToRelax wrote: »
    loki547 wrote: »
    I think nostalgia is fueling a lot of this. There were so many broken things in those days, no build diversity, 1 Mag DK could wipe 10+ people easily, ground oils, streaking through 5 people and getting my Negate up instantly, perma bats, everyone a vamp in light armor, using 1h+shield, destro or resto.

    There were also way more people playing back in those days. So you had your zerg fights on the map but you could also roam in a group of 4-5 and find other groups with similiar numbers. I only played on Wabbajack, which was the only real competitive server back then. I love when I see people with titles of Former Emp of Auriel's Bow or whatever, like 5 people on your server so easy to get Emp or even worse get it passed to you. People leaving the game because of lag killed small group play, not AOE caps.

    Homestead is fun because of build diversity. Yea people can sustain forever, who cares. You can build for damage and kill them in 2 hits so they can have their sustain ;) People can tank forever, good for them they can't damage you so ignore them. There's still a counter for everything. All this nostalgia about soft caps and 1.5 are from former Mag DK's that could leap into a keep and solo 10-20 players, not out of skill mind you, out of the brokenness of the class/game at the time. They want God mode back, sorry dudes ain't gonna happen.

    EDIT: on my phone and clicked the wrong button, have played since open beta.

    This is basically a collection of strawman arguments and ad hominem fallacies.

    Uh. No where did he create a caricature of anyone's argument then misrepresent the that caricature as the actual argument, nor did he suggest someone's argument is wrong due to personal qualities. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean their arguments are fallacious :). They might be wrong, perhaps, but not fallacious. Stop rhetoric buzzwords 2017.

    Are you sure? Let's break it down:

    - Suggestion that "nostalgia is fueling a lot of this" -> accusation of bias, i.e. ad hominem argument on the basis of evidence to be provided in the post. If evidence will not be provided, it is a fallacy.
    - Same goes for accusation in the last sentence, "They want God mode back"

    And ad hominem argument would be stating the arguments of those people are fallacious because of nostalgia. He's not saying they're wrong. He's accusing them of bias. That is ad hominem, i.e. an accusation, but it is not an ad hominem argument because he's not refuting any argument because of the qualities of the interlocutor.

    "They want God mode back" is not a caricature of any argument. Suggesting that it is is pretty silly, actually.

    In fact I don't think that post was arguing against anything in specific. You can't just throw out rhetoric buzzwords and expect them to stick.

    He literally wrote "I think nostalgia is fueling a lot of this". If "this" is people's arguments why they think 1.5 was preferable to the current update, that does mean their arguments do not hold significant argumentational power (who's mixing that up with fallacious now?). And yes, ability to argue with as little bias as possible is a personal quality subjectible to ad hominem arguments. Which in turn are not necessarily fallacious if there were clear instances of the accused people's arguments being influenced by bias - which have yet to be pointed out.

    I also never stated that "They want God mode back" were a strawman argument. Misrepresenting concerns about inflated resources as just high regen builds that lack other stats, then outlining why such a build is not a problem with other, equally or more powerful builds around is, however.

    I think I've made my point clear enough. Make of it what you will.

    Edit: Just saw you updated your last post. Whatever.

    Aruging is pointless really. Zos will never ever bring back 1.0-1.5 so you can reminisce all you want about the good ol' days, but to what end?
  • ToRelax
    ToRelax
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    I did play during 1.0 - 1.5 and prefer it to PvP in Homestead
    @No_True_Scotsman
    I've already told you I have enough of this. He made two claims about people's bias and motivation, as well as addressing the common argument about inflated resources. I don't even accuse him of any malicious intend or something - I simply outlined my problems with his original post. Of course, I could try to "prove" my own opinion, but as I hope you are aware, such an endeavor would be doomed from the start because the entire topic is subjective in nature. Which also means there is no other thing worth arguing about than the logic used in arguments... which, as you already mentioned, is exactly what happened? lol
    Just leave it be, this is ridiculous. >_>
    loki547 wrote: »
    ToRelax wrote: »
    ToRelax wrote: »
    ToRelax wrote: »
    loki547 wrote: »
    I think nostalgia is fueling a lot of this. There were so many broken things in those days, no build diversity, 1 Mag DK could wipe 10+ people easily, ground oils, streaking through 5 people and getting my Negate up instantly, perma bats, everyone a vamp in light armor, using 1h+shield, destro or resto.

    There were also way more people playing back in those days. So you had your zerg fights on the map but you could also roam in a group of 4-5 and find other groups with similiar numbers. I only played on Wabbajack, which was the only real competitive server back then. I love when I see people with titles of Former Emp of Auriel's Bow or whatever, like 5 people on your server so easy to get Emp or even worse get it passed to you. People leaving the game because of lag killed small group play, not AOE caps.

    Homestead is fun because of build diversity. Yea people can sustain forever, who cares. You can build for damage and kill them in 2 hits so they can have their sustain ;) People can tank forever, good for them they can't damage you so ignore them. There's still a counter for everything. All this nostalgia about soft caps and 1.5 are from former Mag DK's that could leap into a keep and solo 10-20 players, not out of skill mind you, out of the brokenness of the class/game at the time. They want God mode back, sorry dudes ain't gonna happen.

    EDIT: on my phone and clicked the wrong button, have played since open beta.

    This is basically a collection of strawman arguments and ad hominem fallacies.

    Uh. No where did he create a caricature of anyone's argument then misrepresent the that caricature as the actual argument, nor did he suggest someone's argument is wrong due to personal qualities. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean their arguments are fallacious :). They might be wrong, perhaps, but not fallacious. Stop rhetoric buzzwords 2017.

    Are you sure? Let's break it down:

    - Suggestion that "nostalgia is fueling a lot of this" -> accusation of bias, i.e. ad hominem argument on the basis of evidence to be provided in the post. If evidence will not be provided, it is a fallacy.
    - Same goes for accusation in the last sentence, "They want God mode back"

    And ad hominem argument would be stating the arguments of those people are fallacious because of nostalgia. He's not saying they're wrong. He's accusing them of bias. That is ad hominem, i.e. an accusation, but it is not an ad hominem argument because he's not refuting any argument because of the qualities of the interlocutor.

    "They want God mode back" is not a caricature of any argument. Suggesting that it is is pretty silly, actually.

    In fact I don't think that post was arguing against anything in specific. You can't just throw out rhetoric buzzwords and expect them to stick.

    He literally wrote "I think nostalgia is fueling a lot of this". If "this" is people's arguments why they think 1.5 was preferable to the current update, that does mean their arguments do not hold significant argumentational power (who's mixing that up with fallacious now?). And yes, ability to argue with as little bias as possible is a personal quality subjectible to ad hominem arguments. Which in turn are not necessarily fallacious if there were clear instances of the accused people's arguments being influenced by bias - which have yet to be pointed out.

    I also never stated that "They want God mode back" were a strawman argument. Misrepresenting concerns about inflated resources as just high regen builds that lack other stats, then outlining why such a build is not a problem with other, equally or more powerful builds around is, however.

    I think I've made my point clear enough. Make of it what you will.

    Edit: Just saw you updated your last post. Whatever.

    Aruging is pointless really. Zos will never ever bring back 1.0-1.5 so you can reminisce all you want about the good ol' days, but to what end?

    Like I just said, arguing about opinions is indeed pointless. ;)
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • loki547
    loki547
    ✭✭✭✭
    I did not play during 1.0 - 1.5 and I prefer PvP in Homestead rather than PvP in 1.0 - 1.5
    ToRelax wrote: »
    Aruging is pointless really. Zos will never ever bring back 1.0-1.5 so you can reminisce all you want about the good ol' days, but to what end?

    Like I just said, arguing about opinions is indeed pointless. ;)[/quote]

    Um ZoS not reverting back to 1.5 or before is a fact, not an opinion.
  • Rickter
    Rickter
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I did play during 1.0 - 1.5 and prefer it to PvP in Homestead
    Atropos? Fixate and Nicolle? Blade Boques? Pixy Stix? Teapot? Columba? Lowbei? Publius Scipio? Moon PiE? WRX? Zergbad (The Now) Exterminatored? Brizz and Zazebra's romance? Ezareth? All the guilds that lasted only 4 months? The Shoddy Cast elf brothers? Angry Joe? Anonymous Elf? Crystalized? Senior Fluffykins? Brandon South Georgia and EG? Skaffa and Murder Thumbs eloping in secret?

    this was the most epic name drop ever. you win the thread.

    Night mistress, zazeer, the wizard daniel deserve special mention

    I think pvp today is more accessible to pvp then. i think guys like Murder Thumbs shouldnt really be mentioned, he exploited an OP meta early in the game cycle and left the game before anyone could really care. The Wizard Daniel however, owned Trueflame and represented DC hard for a long time with Chuck Norris. but its funny, just like in real life, each faction has its heroes. . .

    Publius Scipio has always been here though. since day one. i remember thinking to myself, "man this guy plays all the time but hes still V12???" always providing that supportive extra "umph" just when DC needed it. Publius, youre the hero of the covenant and you should wear that title proudly.
    Edited by Rickter on March 15, 2017 12:32PM
    RickterESO
    PC | NA | DC
    YouTube
    ______________________
    Guilds:
    Requiem GM | Dark Sisterhood Blood Knight | Legend Mod | Legend GvG Mod
    PvP:
    Bloodletter | StamDK | Alliance Rank 46 | Former Emperor of Shor (2018) | Former Emperor of Thornblade #4terms (2015)
    PvE:
    vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMA | vDSA | vMoL | ALL Vet 4 Man Dungeons


  • Subversus
    Subversus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I did play during 1.0 - 1.5 and do not prefer it to PvP in Homestead
    Atropos? Fixate and Nicolle? Blade Boques? Pixy Stix? Teapot? Columba? Lowbei? Publius Scipio? Moon PiE? WRX? Zergbad (The Now) Exterminatored? Brizz and Zazebra's romance? Ezareth? All the guilds that lasted only 4 months? The Shoddy Cast elf brothers? Angry Joe? Anonymous Elf? Crystalized? Senior Fluffykins? Brandon South Georgia and EG? Skaffa and Murder Thumbs eloping in secret?

    Rip my mentor, he's the one who made me the toxic player I am today </3
  • Minno
    Minno
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I enjoyed the performance back then but I did not enjoy the pulse trains and light armor vamp DK invasion Overlords . They ruled with Iron Fists and a bazillion bat ultimates . I remember testing 1.6 and melting the Test Center server playing with the Devs . I know we were in for the lag of a lifetime . The EP of Thornblade were just one big ball of impulse that made walls repairable under attack . I do not share the same rose lenses for those times .

    I miss the first 3 weeks of launch where everyone was confused and the battles were bigger then life . Then the Bot Armies invaded and ZoS made some changes to the code and a patch to fix lighting came out and it all went downhill from there performance wise . Server pops were lowered . Deer were evacuated . Torchbugs were eradicated from the swamps and forests . It was the strangest MMO experience I had ever seen to try and fix the lag . I could of swore they would just do a rollback before all that strange removal and pop cap limit stuff but no . They really kept going in that direction ... So weird . Sometimes it doesn't even feel like the same game I preordered but a watered down version of this really big spectacular war zone called Cyrodiil .

    Anyways I forgot what else I was going to say . Something about getting back to the launch feeling I think .

    I think most people loved the performance the most. I'd rather deal with those OP builds and wear a cotton skirt if it means I'll be able to react without having to look at my ping meter to see how many bottles of Advil I'm going to need to order on Amazon.

    That said, balance is much better in homestead than back then. Though they should give us a 1.0-1.5 server to really test out how it was back then. So many of us were bad back then, but it didn't matter because everyone was terrible so it was fun.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • Asgari
    Asgari
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    I did play during 1.0 - 1.5 and do not prefer it to PvP in Homestead
    pvp now isnt so bad. it just needs some tweaking honestly:
    • lower some of the crazy burst dmg still (remove empower from stealth again)
    • adjust aoe healing more through battle spirit (add a aoe hps debuff of 10% to try that first)
    • increase the s&b ult cost to 140
    • either make resource poisons increase costs by 30% or reduce the time in half to like 2.5 seconds
    • make snares have a major and minor similar to expedition so its the direct counter and people do not have 75%+ snare on them
    • Increase base dmg of siege and keep the dot dmg the same
    Formerly @Persian_Princess .. Now @Asgari
    Princess Asgari | Sorc
    Asgari | NB
    -Asgari | Stamplar
    Ariana Kishi | DK | True Liberator of Haderus
    Banner Down!
    No Mercy
    Youtube: Asgari
  • Publius_Scipio
    Publius_Scipio
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Rickter wrote: »
    Atropos? Fixate and Nicolle? Blade Boques? Pixy Stix? Teapot? Columba? Lowbei? Publius Scipio? Moon PiE? WRX? Zergbad (The Now) Exterminatored? Brizz and Zazebra's romance? Ezareth? All the guilds that lasted only 4 months? The Shoddy Cast elf brothers? Angry Joe? Anonymous Elf? Crystalized? Senior Fluffykins? Brandon South Georgia and EG? Skaffa and Murder Thumbs eloping in secret?

    this was the most epic name drop ever. you win the thread.

    Night mistress, zazeer, the wizard daniel deserve special mention

    I think pvp today is more accessible to pvp then. i think guys like Murder Thumbs shouldnt really be mentioned, he exploited an OP meta early in the game cycle and left the game before anyone could really care. The Wizard Daniel however, owned Trueflame and represented DC hard for a long time with Chuck Norris. but its funny, just like in real life, each faction has its heroes. . .

    Publius Scipio has always been here though. since day one. i remember thinking to myself, "man this guy plays all the time but hes still V12???" always providing that supportive extra "umph" just when DC needed it. Publius, youre the hero of the covenant and you should wear that title proudly.

    Thanks but the power and every triumph of the COVENANT belongs to all those loyal to the BLUE BANNER and who fight collectively "FOR THE MAP" in Cyrodiil. Champions like Fengrush whose finger prints will be found on Morrowind itself. Minno, Rinaldo Gandalphi, Tamerlin etc, etc, etc have all stood their ground, climbed over the stone rubble of keep wall breaches, charged through the threshold of once imposing but now splintered and ripped apart keep doors.... COVENANT soldiers give everything to raise BLUE flags all over Cyrodiil.

    WRX (not to be confused with Subaru) the once feared elf commander of the elven cult known as Decibel was torn between retirement or continuing his campaign against the free people of Tamriel. So a younger Scipio helped the elf come to a decision! I placed him in a digital wheelchair and he was carted off to a nice home for elderly elves in sunny Auridon.

    But no need to feel bad. Everyone's favorite female elf (and dead ringer to play Tinkerbell in a live action movie remake of Peter Pan) Winnamae who spent much of her time lusting over WRX but he was too hell bent on Decibel domination that he never noticed or cared, finally got what she wanted. She got WRX all to herself. When Decibel disbanded she went to the best nursing school in Alik'r, graduated top of her class, and became WRX's personal nurse.Happy endings do happen in Tamriel.

    Even vicious Pact soldier Darklord Tiberius, a vicious, violent, bloody butcher of a man in his time, found forgiveness and was reborn as Infinite Loadscreens within the COVENANT.

    Long live Tamriel.
    Edited by Publius_Scipio on March 16, 2017 1:07AM
  • loki547
    loki547
    ✭✭✭✭
    I did not play during 1.0 - 1.5 and I prefer PvP in Homestead rather than PvP in 1.0 - 1.5
    Even though they have toons on other alliances, I feel names like Azoi, AOE BBQ, and Asgari are all synonymous with true Daggerfall Covenant warriors.
  • Lexxypwns
    Lexxypwns
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    I did play during 1.0 - 1.5 and prefer it to PvP in Homestead
    1.5 wasn't perfect, but soft caps and no CP were a good place to start fixing pvp.
  • Grim13
    Grim13
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I did play during 1.0 - 1.5 and prefer it to PvP in Homestead
    Whichever patch was just before the advent of CP. That, to me, was the sweetspot.
  • sirston
    sirston
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I did play during 1.0 - 1.5 and prefer it to PvP in Homestead
    Ground Oils/Negate being OP / dynamic Ult Gen, making the game fast pace. OH and my Fav was when reflect would kick back all projectiles like meteor or valka scoria.

    Also Like to add, when Crystallized was pushing for Grand Overlord and his group of red shirts would rock around being the only hit squad on EP.
    Edited by sirston on March 18, 2017 2:58PM
    Whitestakes Revenge
    WoodElf Mag-Warden
    Sirston
    Magickia Dragonknight


    T0XIC
    Pride Of The Pact
    Vehemence
    The Crimson Order

    victoria aut mors
  • Scrublord
    Scrublord
    Soul Shriven
    I did play during 1.0 - 1.5 and do not prefer it to PvP in Homestead
    The balance in 1.0 - 1.5 was only good if you were a mag DK fighting another mag DK, otherwise it was absolute cancer. I honestly cannot comprehend how people defend 1.0 - 1.5.
  • ToRelax
    ToRelax
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    I did play during 1.0 - 1.5 and prefer it to PvP in Homestead
    Scrublord wrote: »
    The balance in 1.0 - 1.5 was only good if you were a mag DK fighting another mag DK, otherwise it was absolute cancer. I honestly cannot comprehend how people defend 1.0 - 1.5.

    NB was honestly at least as good as DK in most situations, if not better. Templar I think lacked a little behind, but what still alright - most DKs got real trouble against a good Templar because of Jabs, Blazing Shield and Cleansing Ritual.
    Sorc was clearly in the worst spot, but Absorption Field was the best ultimate in group play and only very few tweaks would have been required to make the class competitive.

    So, no. In fact, DK vs DK I found to be the most boring fights in that update. lol

    Edit: I am exclusively talking about 1.5 here btw. In earlier patches DK was nerfed bit by bit, NB got bugs fixed and shieldstacking was kinda broken until 1.5 changed that.
    Edited by ToRelax on March 18, 2017 8:17PM
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • Zinaroth
    Zinaroth
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I did play during 1.0 - 1.5 and do not prefer it to PvP in Homestead
    My Stamplar is actually somewhat decent now, though still the underdog.
    Back in 1.0-1.5 I would get absolutely crushed by Dragonknight and Sorcerer gods spamming ultimates all day long.
    So I definately enjoy PvPing a lot more now than back then.

    My opinion is purely based the balance of my spec though; I COULD be all for a dynamic ultimate generation and soft caps making a return, depending on how they get re-implemented.
  • Soris
    Soris
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I did play during 1.0 - 1.5 and prefer it to PvP in Homestead
    Wtb 1.5 stamplar.
    The golden time when wrecking blow and blazing shield synergised amazing. <3
    Welkynd [Templar/AD/EU]
  • Rylana
    Rylana
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Satiar wrote: »
    Yuke wrote: »
    Where is the option for:

    I played every patch but prefer 1.6?

    I don't miss eating 50k dawn breakers to the face.

    Nothing like walking around Cyrodiil minding my own business then bam, "Methuselah has turned you into a fine pink mist for 56k with Dawnbreaker of Smiting!" That was like, more than double my HP and in 7 nirnhoned.

    Everyone complained about this but I never had this problem...

    Must have been nice ... being a sorc ... having 40k shields on demand. Sounds balanced :p

    Bruh... I played NB and DK, my sorc didn't even exist back then, and it no longer exists thanks to Wrobel warriors and their hammer of bananner.

    Well super high, uncapped CP emperor Dawnbreakers tend to hurt.

    Nah, they tickle. Gotta use exploits in your favor man, can't just rely on Nirn to protect yourself. Get out dem l337 blinxey sploits and tank hordes of pugs whilst simultaneously murdering them. Meth wasn't even a blip on my radar in 1.6 of being a scary foe to fight, I got killed more to Ballista-Fu than I did actual people. Can't count the number of times people placed down siege in 1.6 to kill me. I blame Rylana for it, always tried to lure me around corners into siege, he got Qaevir like that once... Poor Qaevir.

    Search my name, of course its Panda talking about me.

    I havent played this game for like six months. Hell it isnt even installed on the new computer i got... what five months ago now?

    All we have now is memories panda, I am never coming back.
    Edited by Rylana on March 26, 2017 11:23AM
    @rylanadionysis == Closed Beta Tester October 2013 == Retired October 2016 == Uninstalled @ One Tamriel Release == Inactive Indefinitely
    Ebonheart Pact: Lyzara Dionysis - Sorc - AR 37 (Former Empress of Blackwater Blade and Haderus) == Shondra Dionysis - Temp - AR 23 == Arrianaya Dionysis - DK - AR 17
    Aldmeri Dominion: Rylana Dionysis - DK - AR 25 == Kailiana - NB - AR 21 == Minerva Dionysis - Temp - AR 21 == Victoria Dionysis - Sorc - AR 13
    Daggerfall Covenant: Dannika Dionysis - DK - AR 21 == The Catman Rises - Temp - AR 15 (Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade)
    Forum LOL Champion (retired) == Black Belt in Ballista-Fu == The Last Vice Member == Praise Cheesus == Electro-Goblin
  • KingJ
    KingJ
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I did not play during 1.0 - 1.5 and prefer 1.0 - 1.5 PvP to PvP in Homestead
    Any PVP before proc sets In enjoy way better than this crap we have now.
  • DHale
    DHale
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I did not play during 1.0 - 1.5 and prefer 1.0 - 1.5 PvP to PvP in Homestead
    Rickter wrote: »
    Atropos? Fixate and Nicolle? Blade Boques? Pixy Stix? Teapot? Columba? Lowbei? Publius Scipio? Moon PiE? WRX? Zergbad (The Now) Exterminatored? Brizz and Zazebra's romance? Ezareth? All the guilds that lasted only 4 months? The Shoddy Cast elf brothers? Angry Joe? Anonymous Elf? Crystalized? Senior Fluffykins? Brandon South Georgia and EG? Skaffa and Murder Thumbs eloping in secret?

    this was the most epic name drop ever. you win the thread.

    Night mistress, zazeer, the wizard daniel deserve special mention

    I think pvp today is more accessible to pvp then. i think guys like Murder Thumbs shouldnt really be mentioned, he exploited an OP meta early in the game cycle and left the game before anyone could really care. The Wizard Daniel however, owned Trueflame and represented DC hard for a long time with Chuck Norris. but its funny, just like in real life, each faction has its heroes. . .

    Publius Scipio has always been here though. since day one. i remember thinking to myself, "man this guy plays all the time but hes still V12???" always providing that supportive extra "umph" just when DC needed it. Publius, youre the hero of the covenant and you should wear that title proudly.

    Thanks but the power and every triumph of the COVENANT belongs to all those loyal to the BLUE BANNER and who fight collectively "FOR THE MAP" in Cyrodiil. Champions like Fengrush whose finger prints will be found on Morrowind itself. Minno, Rinaldo Gandalphi, Tamerlin etc, etc, etc have all stood their ground, climbed over the stone rubble of keep wall breaches, charged through the threshold of once imposing but now splintered and ripped apart keep doors.... COVENANT soldiers give everything to raise BLUE flags all over Cyrodiil.

    WRX (not to be confused with Subaru) the once feared elf commander of the elven cult known as Decibel was torn between retirement or continuing his campaign against the free people of Tamriel. So a younger Scipio helped the elf come to a decision! I placed him in a digital wheelchair and he was carted off to a nice home for elderly elves in sunny Auridon.

    But no need to feel bad. Everyone's favorite female elf (and dead ringer to play Tinkerbell in a live action movie remake of Peter Pan) Winnamae who spent much of her time lusting over WRX but he was too hell bent on Decibel domination that he never noticed or cared, finally got what she wanted. She got WRX all to herself. When Decibel disbanded she went to the best nursing school in Alik'r, graduated top of her class, and became WRX's personal nurse.Happy endings do happen in Tamriel.

    Even vicious Pact soldier Darklord Tiberius, a vicious, violent, bloody butcher of a man in his time, found forgiveness and was reborn as Infinite Loadscreens within the COVENANT.

    Long live Tamriel.

    I... we played with WRX last night. His wheelchair is jet powered and no Winnie in sight.

    Edited by DHale on March 26, 2017 3:59PM
    Sorcerna, proud beta sorc. RIP April 2014 to May 31 2016 DArk Brotherhood. Out of retirement for negates and encases. Sorcerna will be going back into retirement to be my main crafter Fall 2018. Because an 8 k shield is f ing useless. Died because of baddies on the forum. Too much qq too little pew pew. 16 AD 2 DC. 0 EP cause they bad, CP 2300 plus 18 level 50 toons. NA, PC, Grey Host#SORCLIVESMATTER actually they don’t or they wouldn’t keep getting nerfed constantly.
  • Valencer
    Valencer
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I did play during 1.0 - 1.5 and prefer it to PvP in Homestead
    I have a lot of fun in PvP when Im not facing 0 counterplay abilities like destro ulti, soul assault, backlash, curse stacking, proc sets (every single one of them), poisons or getting zerged down by a group of useless untouchable heavy armour (heal-)tanks. Sadly thats more the exception than the rule nowadays.

    Really started going downhill after thieves guild, imo.
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