Zergs are still a big issue in PvP.

SneaK

Restore Proxy Det to its former glory.

It's time

Xsorus

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Zers are an issue in PVP for two reasons:

1. Grossly Overpowered Player Based Area of Effect Skills(PBAOE) - This one speaks for itself. I told them in the Beta's Impulse was OP,. and it would be used by stacked groups, and it was. I told them Steel Tornado was OP in the 1.6 PTs and it would be used by stacked groups and it was. I told them Eye of the Storm was way OP in my feedback on the PTS, and it was.

Liquid Lighting, Eruption, Wall of Elements, Arrow Barrage, etc...why would you sue these skills in PVP they SUCK compared to their PBAOE counterparts....hmm...push a button 1 time and deal 4-5k instant damage to everyone in a radius around me, or cast one of the woefully sucky ground based AOE that someone would have to stand inside its tiny radius for 3-4 seconds to get daamge comparable to the PBAOE....don't take a genius to figure out why zergs are a problem.

PBAOE need to goo...ALL OF THEM removed from the game completed, and replaced with Ground Targeted AOE...Liquid Lighting, Wall of Elements, Eruption, Arrow Barrage...those are actually balanced and what AOE should be, not these grossly OP PBAOE we have in this game now...Steel Tornado does more damage then over 70% of the single target skills in the game...thats broken....EOTS speaks for itself...why would anyone use anything else?

2. Woefully Underpowered Siege - Again, this one speaks for itselfs. I remember when Agrippa, myself and a few others successfully convinced ZOS to up siege damage, and we had a month where lag was minimal...but then all the zerg balls started whining because 1 Siege shot would kill half their group(As it should, don't want to die move) and they nerfed the damge and the lag came back to the game.

There are player skills that do more damage then siege and thats simply stupid. My Sorc can just shield though siege like it doesn't even matter.

Siege is the equivalent of this:



in what world does any reasonable person think a machine gun should do more damage then that?(It won't)

You can be insta-killed in this game with a dagger(Incapacitating Strike), but can be shot with a 70 pound piece of flaming rock traveling close to the speed of sound and simply shrug it off like it does;t matter. and we wonder why there are ball groups and lag.


When we had powerful siege for a few weeks, these ball groups died...and they died quickly...the server didn't lag all the time...the last Emp keep was over quickly because 1 Fire Ballista Bolt could kill 10-12 people in a single hit....and thats how it should be.

Siege is mostly ineffective for obvious reasons such as champ points, etc.

"Change siege where it gets a 5% increase in damage for each target hit with no cap on targets that can be hit and scaling damage up to 300%. Also, damage shielding effects such as Barrier and Hardened Ward no longer mitigate or absorb damage from siege artillery, and siege damage is no longer reduced by the Battle Spirit nerf, and Oil Catapault Snare is no longer Purgable"

This means:
if you hit 10 targets the siege does 50% more damage to everyone hit.
If you hit 20 targets it does 100% more damage to everyone hit.
If you hit 30 targets it does 150% more damage to everyone hit.
if you hit 40 targets its does 200% more damage to everyone hit.
if you hit 50 targets it does 250% more damage to everyone hit.
if you hit 60 targets it does 300% more damage to everyone hit.

Zergs will continue to be a problem as long as these game mechanics of too PBAOE exist and ground AOE suck. You look at every pain train from Havoc to present ALL OF them use whatever OP PBAOE skill was around at the time to make it work...EOTS just happens to be the one now. Ineffeitve siege and terrible ground target AOE make the situation worse.

Observing groups like Havoc, IR, etc for many many months i know full well what the strategies were(they were good at it too, not dissing them) im no fool, im a very good learner by observation. I don't like to run in large groups, its not fun to me...4-5 is really pushing it for me...im just not a big fan of numbers = victory 99.8% of the time...the game wasn't always like this, and its a shame that it is now.

Nothing is Wrong with PBAE

PBAE in DAOC for example was the primary way for wiping out Zergs

This game just rewarded stacking for so long via AOE caps...When a viable alternative came along that punished stacking (Vicious death and Prox Det) people were super quick not to stack as much anymore..and this was with AOE caps....imagine those two things (not nerfed) and no AOE caps...Ball Groups could still run around and PBAE to their hearts content...but you'd have Bomber Nightblade consistently going for them and forcing them to Spread.

Removing PBAE at this point will only make Ball Zerging even stronger...as you've just removed the only way to counter a Ball group...unless you think they're going to stand in Ground AOE *grin*

PhxOldGamer68

All Alliance ZvZvZ fights are the best.

BuggeX

Change Detonation, simmilar to the aoe that has Mezeluth in crypt of hearts.
lower the area to 5m, make it cast on 3 random Player within 10m from the target, if the area of both get overlap on the Detonation both die instant.

and now, if the Train doesnt spread they die.

IxSTALKERxI

I think people commenting in this thread have very different opinions on what they consider a 'zerg'. As a result the comments lack consistency.

What exactly is it you are wanting nerfed?

- 60x 'solo' (ungrouped) players running together to an objective.
- 24x organised ball group
- Multiple organised 16 man groups stacking at the same objective.
- 8-12 organised group with enough AoE damage to take out the organised 24 man if caught off guard.
- 3x grouped players with hard hitting destro ults at the ready to suicide bomb the 24 man.

I personally enjoy the 8-12 so my opinion will be biased towards that. If you take away our strong AoE damage we are just going to get run over by the 24 man or the 60 solo players.

IcyDeadPeople

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

I think people commenting in this thread have very different opinions on what they consider a 'zerg'. The comments in this thread lack consistency because of it.

What exactly is it you are wanting nerfed?

- 60x 'solo' (ungrouped) players running together to an objective.
- 24x organised ball group
- Multiple organised 16 man groups stacking at the same objective.
- 8-12 organised group with enough AoE damage to take out the organised 24 man if caught off guard.
- 3x grouped players with hard hitting destro ults at the ready to suicide bomb the 24 man.

I personally enjoy the 8-12 so my opinion will be biased towards that. If you take away our strong AoE damage we are just going to get run over by the 24 man or the 60 solo players.

It's rather simple. The formula for zerg = (n + 1), where n is the number of players in your party.

Astanphaeus

Etaniel wrote: »

Kajin wrote: »

I don't understand the problem with zergs, I'm a solo player, but zergs are a part of the game that many like.
You can't siege as a solo player and cyrodiil resolves around siege/keeps.

Massive battles is what some players like. Others like to get small scale pvp and you can find it all in cyrodiil.

The problem isn't the zergs, the problem is the try hard zergs who find satisfaction in chasing and killing 1 or 2 dudes with 40.
They are supposed to go after keeps, no small scalers.

The problem is "soloers" who attack someone in a large group and then get pissy when the group run them over.

technohic

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

I think people commenting in this thread have very different opinions on what they consider a 'zerg'. The comments in this thread lack consistency because of it.

What exactly is it you are wanting nerfed?

- 60x 'solo' (ungrouped) players running together to an objective.
- 24x organised ball group
- Multiple organised 16 man groups stacking at the same objective.
- 8-12 organised group with enough AoE damage to take out the organised 24 man if caught off guard.
- 3x grouped players with hard hitting destro ults at the ready to suicide bomb the 24 man.

I personally enjoy the 8-12 so my opinion will be biased towards that. If you take away our strong AoE damage we are just going to get run over by the 24 man or the 60 solo players.

It's rather simple. The formula for zerg = (n + 1), where n is the number of players in your party.

LOL Good description.

I pretty much conside 20+ but I don't really care so much about the zergs or even just naturally running into one. It's just part of the game.

Barbardin

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Zers are an issue in PVP for two reasons:

1. Grossly Overpowered Player Based Area of Effect Skills(PBAOE) - This one speaks for itself. I told them in the Beta's Impulse was OP,. and it would be used by stacked groups, and it was. I told them Steel Tornado was OP in the 1.6 PTs and it would be used by stacked groups and it was. I told them Eye of the Storm was way OP in my feedback on the PTS, and it was.

Liquid Lighting, Eruption, Wall of Elements, Arrow Barrage, etc...why would you sue these skills in PVP they SUCK compared to their PBAOE counterparts....hmm...push a button 1 time and deal 4-5k instant damage to everyone in a radius around me, or cast one of the woefully sucky ground based AOE that someone would have to stand inside its tiny radius for 3-4 seconds to get daamge comparable to the PBAOE....don't take a genius to figure out why zergs are a problem.

PBAOE need to goo...ALL OF THEM removed from the game completed, and replaced with Ground Targeted AOE...Liquid Lighting, Wall of Elements, Eruption, Arrow Barrage...those are actually balanced and what AOE should be, not these grossly OP PBAOE we have in this game now...Steel Tornado does more damage then over 70% of the single target skills in the game...thats broken....EOTS speaks for itself...why would anyone use anything else?

2. Woefully Underpowered Siege - Again, this one speaks for itselfs. I remember when Agrippa, myself and a few others successfully convinced ZOS to up siege damage, and we had a month where lag was minimal...but then all the zerg balls started whining because 1 Siege shot would kill half their group(As it should, don't want to die move) and they nerfed the damge and the lag came back to the game.

There are player skills that do more damage then siege and thats simply stupid. My Sorc can just shield though siege like it doesn't even matter.

Siege is the equivalent of this:



in what world does any reasonable person think a machine gun should do more damage then that?(It won't)

You can be insta-killed in this game with a dagger(Incapacitating Strike), but can be shot with a 70 pound piece of flaming rock traveling close to the speed of sound and simply shrug it off like it does;t matter. and we wonder why there are ball groups and lag.


When we had powerful siege for a few weeks, these ball groups died...and they died quickly...the server didn't lag all the time...the last Emp keep was over quickly because 1 Fire Ballista Bolt could kill 10-12 people in a single hit....and thats how it should be.

Siege is mostly ineffective for obvious reasons such as champ points, etc.

"Change siege where it gets a 5% increase in damage for each target hit with no cap on targets that can be hit and scaling damage up to 300%. Also, damage shielding effects such as Barrier and Hardened Ward no longer mitigate or absorb damage from siege artillery, and siege damage is no longer reduced by the Battle Spirit nerf, and Oil Catapault Snare is no longer Purgable"

This means:
if you hit 10 targets the siege does 50% more damage to everyone hit.
If you hit 20 targets it does 100% more damage to everyone hit.
If you hit 30 targets it does 150% more damage to everyone hit.
if you hit 40 targets its does 200% more damage to everyone hit.
if you hit 50 targets it does 250% more damage to everyone hit.
if you hit 60 targets it does 300% more damage to everyone hit.

Zergs will continue to be a problem as long as these game mechanics of too PBAOE exist and ground AOE suck. You look at every pain train from Havoc to present ALL OF them use whatever OP PBAOE skill was around at the time to make it work...EOTS just happens to be the one now. Ineffeitve siege and terrible ground target AOE make the situation worse.

Observing groups like Havoc, IR, etc for many many months i know full well what the strategies were(they were good at it too, not dissing them) im no fool, im a very good learner by observation. I don't like to run in large groups, its not fun to me...4-5 is really pushing it for me...im just not a big fan of numbers = victory 99.8% of the time...the game wasn't always like this, and its a shame that it is now.

THIS!

KaiDynasty

thankyourat wrote: »

Siege weapons hit pretty hard in PvP the reason it doesn't seem that way when hitting a large group is because of how much healing they have. If you make them stronger it would only hurt small groups. The only way I feel like you can deal with zergs in this game is to give people a reason to spread out. Or make it to where if you stack your whole faction in one place is detrimental. Right now it's not enough penalty for fraction stacking players can travel so fast that they can always prevent you from back dooring a keep

Mag blades bombers are a solution

kevlarto_ESO

I think no matter what they do zergs will always be here, and no one seems to even be able to agree on what a zerg is ? a small to medium group using tactics to me is not a zerg, a pain train running mindlessly around spamming one or two buttons is a zerg to me.

Seems like everything zos has tried to break up the zerg has backfired and the zergs end up using it on the rest of us LOL

I still think soft caps and hard caps would be one way to cut things back and help with balance, but that's just me speaking from playing mmo's since the 90's. /shrug

Minno

Astanphaeus wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Kajin wrote: »

I don't understand the problem with zergs, I'm a solo player, but zergs are a part of the game that many like.
You can't siege as a solo player and cyrodiil resolves around siege/keeps.

Massive battles is what some players like. Others like to get small scale pvp and you can find it all in cyrodiil.

The problem isn't the zergs, the problem is the try hard zergs who find satisfaction in chasing and killing 1 or 2 dudes with 40.
They are supposed to go after keeps, no small scalers.

The problem is "soloers" who attack someone in a large group and then get pissy when the group run them over.

Like when the group is in stealth ready to pounce on "solo players"?

RinaldoGandolphi

Minno wrote: »

Astanphaeus wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Kajin wrote: »

I don't understand the problem with zergs, I'm a solo player, but zergs are a part of the game that many like.
You can't siege as a solo player and cyrodiil resolves around siege/keeps.

Massive battles is what some players like. Others like to get small scale pvp and you can find it all in cyrodiil.

The problem isn't the zergs, the problem is the try hard zergs who find satisfaction in chasing and killing 1 or 2 dudes with 40.
They are supposed to go after keeps, no small scalers.

The problem is "soloers" who attack someone in a large group and then get pissy when the group run them over.

Like when the group is in stealth ready to pounce on "solo players"?

This happens to pretty much all solo or small group(4 or less)

You will always find 12-15 people in stealth to gank zerg you at some point during your playtime.

King of Thieves and Murdo used to duo and gank, today 10-12 in stealth hiding to gank you is common place...

Minno

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Astanphaeus wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Kajin wrote: »

I don't understand the problem with zergs, I'm a solo player, but zergs are a part of the game that many like.
You can't siege as a solo player and cyrodiil resolves around siege/keeps.

Massive battles is what some players like. Others like to get small scale pvp and you can find it all in cyrodiil.

The problem isn't the zergs, the problem is the try hard zergs who find satisfaction in chasing and killing 1 or 2 dudes with 40.
They are supposed to go after keeps, no small scalers.

The problem is "soloers" who attack someone in a large group and then get pissy when the group run them over.

Like when the group is in stealth ready to pounce on "solo players"?

This happens to pretty much all solo or small group(4 or less)

You will always find 12-15 people in stealth to gank zerg you at some point during your playtime.

King of Thieves and Murdo used to duo and gank, today 10-12 in stealth hiding to gank you is common place...

I miss the launch days where you had to watch out for nightblades ganking everywhere . Where stealth meant something, and most classes didn't need (or didn't know how) to rely on stealth.

Ghost-Shot

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

I think no matter what they do zergs will always be here, and no one seems to even be able to agree on what a zerg is ? a small to medium group using tactics to me is not a zerg, a pain train running mindlessly around spamming one or two buttons is a zerg to me.

Seems like everything zos has tried to break up the zerg has backfired and the zergs end up using it on the rest of us LOL

I still think soft caps and hard caps would be one way to cut things back and help with balance, but that's just me speaking from playing mmo's since the 90's. /shrug

Care to explain how its tactics if a "small to medium group" does something but its "mindlessly spamming one or two buttons" for anyone bigger? My AoE dps rotation is literally identical in a group of 8 as it is in a group of 24, so why is it then mindless?

PhxOldGamer68

2012 Polygon Article: 'The Elder Scrolls Online' will let you play in 100-player groups
http://www.polygon.com/gaming/2012/6/6/3067008/elder-scrolls-online-preview

Zergs regardless of the size are part of the game. 24 player group is actually a limitation based on early articles.

If it wasn't for the lag when ZvZvZ occurs when trying to dethrone an emp, then ESO would've accomplished an amazing feat.

ozimoon3rwb17_ESO

Zergs were only an issue when they added AOE caps, with no AOE Cap a good guild could easily dismantle a zerg. We used to do it all the time. A skilled group of 10 with good command could win consistently vs a zerg of 40+. AOE caps not only removed the zerg busting ability of guilds but it also had to add to the lag you are all still feeling to this day because of all the extra calculation that the server needs to do to apply the current caps.

t3hdubzy

Anyone ever considered how wars like gettysburg were fought, zerg on zerg action. Guerilla warfare.

Anyone ever watch lord of the rings.

OP have you not seen the last updates?


I HATE 50 man zergs of people spamming ults and light attacks with so much lag you cant even react, but thats the game..... welcome to eso.

LadyLavina

kuro-dono

WARNING. WALL OF TEXT INC. IF CANT BE BOTHERED TO READ. CHECK TO THE VERY BOTTOM FOR QUICK READ.


there is multiple problems with this topic>

aoes. group sizes, and what sort of problems each type of groups caus. ( i wont comment on the rage issue caused by tanks, ganker wankers or bolt escaping attension *** sorc)

aoes in this game have huge problem in that they cause lots of lagg, they can be activated 24/7 and do not hurt friendlies.

Human cant be trusted as an player to attempt play fully honest pvp. there is ALWAYS, quaranteed to be some sort of wannabe superstars whose idea is to totally dominate the battlefield and never die without considering the feelings/emotions and fun level of their opposition.

legs go back in time after beta> impulse choo choos. > zenimax fix, detonation bomb, lol. ok, we got next betswarming detonation bomb choo choo:s. then came such an clever move called vicious death. oh, now we got batswarming detonation bombs with vicious death. I forgot to mention steel tornado choo choo:s those beatiful dancers of death. anyway> vicious death caused the misery of being proced via sieges. now where we are? populations on each campaign are at lowest yet? and ppl dont even bother not looking obvious when exploiting broken mechanics.

easy fixes to sieges and aoe choo choo:s, with few variatation.

sieges> make them hurt ALOT. make their cool down extended from few seconds up to... 10-20 second. not spammable.

so. covenant stone treb, instead of doing 6000 dmg, it would do 18k dmg. ah and yes. its on cool down when it gets planted, so you cant fire it off the moment its on ground. it needs time to load up aswell.

this way> lots of farming gets sorted. this way it becomes more tactical, more skillful play when to use.

ok. that covered the siege part of the story.

next. > since the time of impulse trains arrived into esolando. i knew this is gonna get ugly.

aoes in this game, are serious problem. truly serious. from point of view for suicide bomber thats quite fine. he is just lone soul who runs in with aoes blazing, explodes and expecting him/her to survive are low.

in all honesty. i would love detonation to be truly detonation bomb that kills you as an user when it explodes. but then the dmg has to be increased ALOT.

but, when talking about raids or small men armies, choke point killing all the triggered idiots together with ballistas + aoes i just cant do but feel sorry for them. I was forced to start play sorc to use encase + negate magic to counter this sort of playstyle which is annoying because i truly want to play my stamina templar, but he doesnt have mobility, utility or ultimates to counter these nasties.

part of this story, would get countered by the idea of sieges getting huge cool down.

but then, what about the aoe skills? that ppl spam 24/7. the area is so huge, and they dont need to even target anyone, they just run to the nearest point with lots of enemies and watch everything melt. or. they go top of the resourcetowers or anytype of towers or building, and set their house.

now with this latest joy of the farmers, destruction staff ulti, or as ppl call it, eot ( no clue for the letters what they stand for)
aoes need MAJOR NERF. here, there is either, maximum dmg skills can deal when overlapped or cooldown on them. ultimates are problematic as they basicly are on cool down as you need to build ultimate, but even that is not enough based on the fact how many eots i see one raid run around with. out of 12 ppl there seems to be more than 6 eots.

ppl whine about the aoe caps. lol that joke. you have 30 ppl. aye? 12 man raid hits them. so they all have aoe going off right? so.. 12x 6 is... 72 ppl could be affected by overlapping aoes. There on the numbers of 30 people . 1-20 ppl die in matter of 1-2 second. so when they dead, even more ppl of that 30 group are affected by the other peopls aoes. so the nonsense about aoe caps causing trouble to the small scalers is just such an nonexistent. its just wild story for the aoe runners to cover up with. same when you have those aoe solo bombers, who cry that why i cant kill that raid on my own ////////// ( i almost feel sorry for them) the 12 man group to whine about aoe caps is bad story, as its same for the 4 man groups or even 2 man groups. multiple aoes, will kill so fast ppl that the aoe cap wont be issue at all.

the power creep, or the amount of dmg you can pimp up with amazing survivality is just so ridiculous. we got few things that focus on burst aoe dmg. instant, and after that you are like fish on ground after jump, felt good, but now its over. those are okay as they are tactically very important. but not these aoe 24/7 spammers. they arent okay or even cool.

for this. it could be fixed that there is maximum dmg aoes can deal when they overlap. so lets say 20 detonation bomb activated. their total dmg on group of 20 ppl would be... 400k. but oh! all those detonations are overlapping! we cant have that sort of anti fun style! dmg is nerfed down to 10% of the total. until the detonations do not overlap.

this would work on each ability/ultimate and their effects + set effect/procs. similarly how detonation state that when one player gets hit, its only 25% of the dmg ( cant remember numbers since i dont use the ability) so 2 players would be 50%, 3 75% and so on up to was it 200% something? so similarly the aoe dmg nerf would go like this> friendly aoe, dmg nerf from 100% would be reduced to 90% 3 abilities, dmg nerf down to 80% and so on.

this choise isnt my number one. its just blanket covering the problems aoe choo choos have on the pvp. impact/performance wise.

problem sorting techique number 2>

friendlyfire. aye. you heard that right. ppl actually would be forced to play skillfully. not just run around like dogs with the crazycow disease. This one here. would force zenimax to enforce their game PROPERLY, not half assed job as they have been doing so far this past 3 year so... good luck with this, but this here would encourage many different type of playstyles.
ALSO. it would nerf many negative features thats been involved with eso pvp. when i am talking about enforcing the fairplay. i am talking about wankers who would attempt to abuse this. since again. as i said earlier, we players cant be trusted. we will figure way ALWAYS, how to abuse the situation to be more advantageous for themself.

the first few week up to months could be horrible, unless zenimax would support fully and completely and utterly good pvp envinronment. Get rid of all the human trash who would abuse this. ban. not kick, but ban. make this playstyle work for the azura star and non veteran pvp so that all the new players would experience this. the unholy land called laggflame can be kept as it is.

third option> have EVERYTHING RELATED TO AOE DMG AND AOE HEALS have cool down. as in form of channeling. detonation bomb is already delayed, so it wont be affected, but everything else does get the treatment. for the destro staff ultimate. increase the cast time like detonation> so. 8sec before the ability goes off + during this castime, it wont build ultimate.

the pvp is truly hitting the real low point. no new player wanna stay longer than few or so evening to get their ava rank up, then be gone, as pvp is in such an poor state and zenimax is untrustworthy to keep exploiters/cheaters away as they dont seem to bother enforce their laws of fairplay 24/7 as it should be. so for the sake of fairplay, we need BADLY changes into pvp so that it would be less painful for newer players/casuals to enjoy large warfare pvp.

i got my ideas of toning down ganking/tanking and issues what kirelords cause but i keep them out of this story as this is related to large warfare.

So as always with my wall of text i shovel to the bottom of this all in sentence or 2 the problems and majorpoints what could do nicely to the pvp.

READ BELOW THIS IF CANT BOTHER TO READ WALL OF TEXT READ THIS IF CANT BOTHER TO READ WALL OF TEXT READ THIS IF CANT BOTHER TO READ WALL OF TEXT READ THIS IF CANT BOTHER TO READ WALL OF TEXT READ THIS IF CANT BOTHER TO READ WALL OF TEXT READ THIS IF CANT BOTHER TO READ WALL OF TEXT READ THIS IF CANT BOTHER TO READ WALL OF TEXT



> siege weapons, their effectiveness
> aoe abilities, and their spammability.
> proc sets/aoe and / procs

counter> way longer loading time. same when planting siege, HUGE dmg increase.
counter> option 1 detonation treatment on aoe abilities in sense of overlap> full dmg when 1 person hit, 90% dmg when 2 ppl hit, 80% when 3 hit. no cap how many targets hit. works for every and each ability. dmg nerf starts when ability been activated.
counter> option 2 friendlyfire. EVERYTHING has friendlyfire. promote skillfulplay, instead of mindnumbing aoe spammage.(requires heavy enforcing of fairplay)
counter> option 3 everything that has aoe impact will get cool down in form of channeling or similar. abilities like destruction staff ultimate has cast time of 8 second, same as detonation bomb.

we all agree. the warfare is intense, and it gets lame when overrun by 60 ppl when i am just with my pal. We do see here pattern dont we? ITS WAR. not hey, lets play home.

i kept this as an last feature for the moderated/updated version of azura star + blackwater blades> NO AP GAIN FROM KILLS. NADA, ZERO NIL, 0, NONE. obvios troller would say that this is same as previously had issue with black boot, mine lumber or farm which was bugged? HEHE. here. if resource/keep flips again within 1-5 minute of capturing without conflict, no ap will get awarded.

enjoy that bite and see the potential.

ps. i cant wait for the certain type of ppl who come here and mention first how english isnt my native language.

FleetwoodSmack

DannyLV702 wrote: »

Zergs are not an issue. The game was meant for zerging. The issue is the fact that the servers can't handle the zergs.

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE ZERG!


Sorry. Had to. I'll be in my corner.

MaLaK_FRA

Etaniel wrote: »

Kajin wrote: »

I don't understand the problem with zergs, I'm a solo player, but zergs are a part of the game that many like.
You can't siege as a solo player and cyrodiil resolves around siege/keeps.

Massive battles is what some players like. Others like to get small scale pvp and you can find it all in cyrodiil.

The problem isn't the zergs, the problem is the try hard zergs who find satisfaction in chasing and killing 1 or 2 dudes with 40.
They are supposed to go after keeps, no small scalers.

+111111111111111111111111111111111111

out51d3r

Zergs are inevitable in open world pvp. As long as 2 guys have a better chance at winning than 1, and as long as 20 have a better chance at winning than 10, people will try to stack as many players as they can onto their team. The zergers are doing exactly what we all should be doing in order to maximize our chances of winning. Can't fault them for that.

Just try to squeeze what fun you can out of Cyrodiil/Imperial City and move into battlegrounds once they get here. I'm building up a bombblade for the meantime, personally.

Sureshawt

Barbardin wrote: »

DannyLV702 wrote: »

Zergs are not an issue. The game was meant for zerging. The issue is the fact that the servers can't handle the zergs.

Oh so seeing people run in 20-60, spamming one single button is fun? And meet well geared groups is so much fun as a new players! Yeah, no wonders new players leave after month of playing the game... I got whole friend list of such players... about 20-30 for sure.

I was taking part in such groups as well, it was fun for awhile, but after an hour of playing I was thinking to myself "is there any better game I can play?".

He is right though. The campaign mode is designed specifically for large-scale fighting (a.k.a as zerging) Although I've heard over 20 different definitions of what constitutes a zerg I've never seen large groups running around spamming a single button.

Anyway what you are looking for is called canned PvP like Arena or Battlegrounds where numbers are controlled and predictable. Battlegrounds are coming in ESO soon.

Kind of weird though how different we feel about the same thing. With canned PvP being so predictable and repetitive I get bored quickly. However, with open world PvP it is inherently unpredictable and I get small scale and large scale and everything in between. I guess to each their own....

ishilb14_ESO

What's wrong with zerging? Competitive PvP was revived the day when the old and wise Bulbasaur decreed that VE reroll to DC to partner up with CN and zerg down the always populated EP side of the map. You wish to do away with zergs, but you understand not that zergs are what keeps PvP alive.

Kram8ion

It's not an issue
It's the point

Ellwin

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Zers are an issue in PVP for two reasons:

1. Grossly Overpowered Player Based Area of Effect Skills(PBAOE) - This one speaks for itself. I told them in the Beta's Impulse was OP,. and it would be used by stacked groups, and it was. I told them Steel Tornado was OP in the 1.6 PTs and it would be used by stacked groups and it was. I told them Eye of the Storm was way OP in my feedback on the PTS, and it was.

Liquid Lighting, Eruption, Wall of Elements, Arrow Barrage, etc...why would you sue these skills in PVP they SUCK compared to their PBAOE counterparts....hmm...push a button 1 time and deal 4-5k instant damage to everyone in a radius around me, or cast one of the woefully sucky ground based AOE that someone would have to stand inside its tiny radius for 3-4 seconds to get daamge comparable to the PBAOE....don't take a genius to figure out why zergs are a problem.

PBAOE need to goo...ALL OF THEM removed from the game completed, and replaced with Ground Targeted AOE...Liquid Lighting, Wall of Elements, Eruption, Arrow Barrage...those are actually balanced and what AOE should be, not these grossly OP PBAOE we have in this game now...Steel Tornado does more damage then over 70% of the single target skills in the game...thats broken....EOTS speaks for itself...why would anyone use anything else?

2. Woefully Underpowered Siege - Again, this one speaks for itselfs. I remember when Agrippa, myself and a few others successfully convinced ZOS to up siege damage, and we had a month where lag was minimal...but then all the zerg balls started whining because 1 Siege shot would kill half their group(As it should, don't want to die move) and they nerfed the damge and the lag came back to the game.

There are player skills that do more damage then siege and thats simply stupid. My Sorc can just shield though siege like it doesn't even matter.

Siege is the equivalent of this:



in what world does any reasonable person think a machine gun should do more damage then that?(It won't)

You can be insta-killed in this game with a dagger(Incapacitating Strike), but can be shot with a 70 pound piece of flaming rock traveling close to the speed of sound and simply shrug it off like it does;t matter. and we wonder why there are ball groups and lag.


When we had powerful siege for a few weeks, these ball groups died...and they died quickly...the server didn't lag all the time...the last Emp keep was over quickly because 1 Fire Ballista Bolt could kill 10-12 people in a single hit....and thats how it should be.

Siege is mostly ineffective for obvious reasons such as champ points, etc.

"Change siege where it gets a 5% increase in damage for each target hit with no cap on targets that can be hit and scaling damage up to 300%. Also, damage shielding effects such as Barrier and Hardened Ward no longer mitigate or absorb damage from siege artillery, and siege damage is no longer reduced by the Battle Spirit nerf, and Oil Catapault Snare is no longer Purgable"

This means:
if you hit 10 targets the siege does 50% more damage to everyone hit.
If you hit 20 targets it does 100% more damage to everyone hit.
If you hit 30 targets it does 150% more damage to everyone hit.
if you hit 40 targets its does 200% more damage to everyone hit.
if you hit 50 targets it does 250% more damage to everyone hit.
if you hit 60 targets it does 300% more damage to everyone hit.

Zergs will continue to be a problem as long as these game mechanics of too PBAOE exist and ground AOE suck. You look at every pain train from Havoc to present ALL OF them use whatever OP PBAOE skill was around at the time to make it work...EOTS just happens to be the one now. Ineffeitve siege and terrible ground target AOE make the situation worse.

Observing groups like Havoc, IR, etc for many many months i know full well what the strategies were(they were good at it too, not dissing them) im no fool, im a very good learner by observation. I don't like to run in large groups, its not fun to me...4-5 is really pushing it for me...im just not a big fan of numbers = victory 99.8% of the time...the game wasn't always like this, and its a shame that it is now.

your siege damage scaling is interesting. i am 100% against player siege but if this was implemented with overall siege damage decreased you could have the possibility of something great there.

as for PBAOE's i agree with you to an extent. if all aoe's had bottom line small damage(like prox det) but scaled off of enemy's hit...it would be the best of both worlds. anti zerg skill while still keeping a skillcap. we have been asking for that for a long time

misfitmanic

The reality is not 12+ players stacking and mashing a single button...
The reality is 24+ excellent players coordinating an assault on a poorly defended enemy, each synchronizing the casting of 12 abilities each.
The larger group with best team play will always win the fight.
L2P/GG
Also, as long as ZOS shows army vs army vs army in gameplay/trailers, deal with it. This IS an MMORPG with millions of active players and tons of player guilds.

See ya on the killing fields of Cyro, best not show up alone and unprepared

rivenjr

Zergs that are just large groups are great in PvP and should be there for sho.

Ball Zergs that hide 30+ players inside each other are... well...

I won't finish the sentence above but I am all for some sort of collision with members of your own Alliance and maybe even enemy players. I'd like to see battle formations be a necessity in PvP. So ZOS, why not some snares or debuffs when these players get all up in each other?

No trolling worries you poor anniversary cake victims, just dodge roll through like you currently have to do against Guards.

Coordinating Ultibombing is stupid easy so don't come up with that being a skill. You know who you are.

Frankly Ball Zergs hurt those who run them the most. If they don't have you outnumbered 2:1 they fry. Buncha scrubs.

Before defending the current ghost-like material us PvPers are seeming made of, please read about the Roman armies, Zulu tribes, etc. There are some great strategies out there. It would be fun even if only one campaign had collision.

Anazasi

An oldie but Goodie The Skooma Guide was critical then and can be used still with minor tweaks to group play.

TSYM SKOOMA STRAT UPDATED 6-27 Download this as a PDF to view! (in File above)
The skooma strategy is a two phase hit and run strat. The two phases, attack and regeneration, will be explained below.
Attack Phase - During this phase you stay with the TSYM attacking force, bore into the enemy group, and dump all mana into PBAOE attacks. If potions are authorized by commander, empty your mana to 40% then use potion, continue to nuke until empty. Once empty return to regeneration phase. If attack phase lasts longer, fill mana with Equilibrium and return to attack phase
Regeneration Phase - This is our default setting, and the mode we regenerate massive amount of mana and ultimate in. By using Regeneration from the Restoration Staff tree, we can apply long lasting heal over time abilities that last while we are in attack phase. This means, during attack phase, you are getting ultimate from both heals and massive damage, and probably have heals still on you when you bounce back from attack phase and use your first equilibrium to boost mana back.
Your Attack Bar
Heavy Armor Tree - Immovable
Class Specific Ability 1
PBAOE ability - Specific to class!
Class Specific Ability 2
Mage Guild Tree - Inner Light
Resto Staff Tree - Regeneration
Heavy Armor Tree - Immovable Mage Guild Tree - Equilibrium
Pursuit Deterrent - Class Specific Mage Guild Tree - Inner Light Your Restoration Bar
Attack Bar Breakdown Class Specific Abilities - Here is the list of class specific abilities for the four classes -Templar - Retreating Maneuver 4 (Alliance War Assault Tree) and Restoring Aura (Restoring Light Tree) -Sorcerer - Surge (Storm Caller Tree) and Streak (Storm Caller Tree) -Nightblade - Power Extraction (Syphoning Tree) and Twisted Path (Your call if you want something else here) -Dragonknight - Extended Chains (Ardent Flame Tree) and Fragmented Shield (Earthen Heart Tree) ===Note on Fragmented Shield - If you don't have this, respec. It is CRITICAL! Ask someone why in guild.
Heavy Armor Tree - Immovable - This ability should be active at ALL TIMES during a push. If an enemy catches you without it, spam it so you do not get chain stunned, and keep up with the team. This ability makes you immune to stuns, CCs, and knock downs.
PBAOE - Here is the class specific PBAOE abilities -Templar - Solar Barrage (Dawns Wrath Tree) -Sorcerer - Impulse (Destro Staff Tree) -Nightblade - Impulse (Destro Staff Tree) and Power Extraction (Siphoning) -Dragonknight - Burning Talons (Draconic Power)
Mage Guild Tree - Inner Light - This is on BOTH BARS, so you do not need to recast it, and you get the added critical strike for healing during damage phase for heals cast during regeneration phase, but ticking during attack phase. Regeneration Bar Breakdown
Pursuit Deterrent - This is an ability you can throw down, to shake pursuing enemies off our track while we retreat and regenerate. When an enemy gets hit with this ability, you DO NOT lose your retreating maneuver, and retain your speed and immunity to slow/root effects. Sorcerers will use Daedric Mines from the Dark Magic Tree, while the other three classes will use Volcanic Rune, from the Mages Guild Tree.
Immovable and Inner Light are retained from previous breakdown, and are there for the same reasons.
Resto Staff - Regeneration - Due to the duration of this ability, combined with its low heal amount, this is an idea ability to generate ultimate in our strategy. All heals that tick on a damaged ally, as well as critical heals, generate 1 ultimate. This means if 25 heal over times are on the team, ticking every . 5 seconds, and the player has a 50% critical strike chance, they will average 25 ultimate gain per second, with a bonus for every tick occurring on a TSYM member using equilibrium to damage themselves.
Mages Guild Tree - Equilibrium - This ability allows TSYM to regenerate an entire mana bar in a few seconds, as well as providing ultimate gaining opportunities for TSYM members with heal over times on your character. The combination of these two abilities allow for a synergistic regeneration of both team mana (potential damage) as well as ultimate (barrier for survival and offensive ultimates for damage). Ultimates - As important as they sound!
The ultimates are just as important as the rest of the bar, so lets get you set here. First off, all classes have two ability slots, one for barrier, and one for alpha strike. The barrier unlock will not prevent you from being PVP certified, however it needs to be there asap.
A note on barrier. DO NOT BE STINGY WITH THIS ABILITY! TSYM relies on this for keeping the team alive and fighting, so be safe rather than sorry! We use a selfish method for this, its simple and effective. Basically, if you have red available, and you are lacking a red barrier, you pop your barrier.
The other abilities are the alpha strike abilities, and are used rarely. Keep this ability on your RESTORATION BAR ONLY! There is a reason for this, the barriers are critical to survival and cannot be stored on our non-combat bar for safe keeping. Also, our alpha strike abilities will always be our opener if we use them like that. This means you can use them while in resto mode, then switch to damage mode, and open up.
Here are the abilities by class. -Templar - Solar Disturbance - Throw this on the enemy, slowing and doing damage on approach -Sorcerer - Power Overload - This ability gives you options for the Shock Trooper role -Nightblade - Ice Comet morph of meteor in the mages guild tree. High damage, great slow, hilarious impact -Dragonknight - Dragon Standard, dive and enjoy!
One final word here. IT IS CRITICAL that you do NOT use your alpha strike abilities when not specifically ordered. If you do, you will cause us to lose survivability, and massively increase our vulnerability.
How To Get This Quickly! - Compliance Guide IMPORTANT - Ability levels info! Once you have unlocked an Alliance war, Undaunted, Mages Guild or any other class of ability, IT LEVELS LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE! Unlocking it takes levels in that tree, leveling it up does not!
Mages Guild Levels - To get in compliance with the TSYM Skooma Strat, you need Mage Guild level 8. Mage Guild does NOT level like normal trees, you are required to collect sets of lore books to achieve this, however these books are hidden throughout the world. There is a lorebook addon available through Minion (http://minion.mmoui.com/) that will automatically filter your collected lorebooks, and allow you to return to all the previously cleared maps, and beeline right to the lorebooks needed. Each SET you complete, gives you a 20pt bonus. Go collect those sets!
Ability Grind Location - To understand this grind, you need to know exactly how ability exp is applied. When you gain experience, 34% of the amount is applied to every single ability on your bar, including ultimate ability. The amount is also applied to the tree itself, provided it is not the Alliance War Tree, the Mages Guild Tree, Fighters Guild Tree, and the Undaunted. These trees level through other means (Alliance War through the killing of Blues and Yellows!)
Now that you know how EXP is applied to abilities, go to The Orchard in Cold Harbor. Level 49-50 mobs for some reason give more ability exp than max level mobs, but were not complaining. With some fighters guild passives, you can easily pull 5-7 groups in this area, and rapidly level up your abilities. Make sure your bar has as many abilities you need to level on it at the same time, but 1-2 offensive abilities so you can kill fast and effective. Do this in a group whenever possible (put into guild chat “ORCHARD ABILITY GRIND STARTING, PST” and form up). The group gets full credit, and goes faster! No reason not to.
How to make money for a respec! Since the crows wood nerf, most ways of making money are roughly the same. I would recommend getting a good team in Craglorn, or harvesting a few hundred potion mats for sell to achieve the money needed for a good respec.
If you have good money making methods, share them with the team, and help complete this guide! Gear and You!
Thief Mundis Stone - More critical here, get it! Full 7 piece light armor - With the TSYM strategy, we use barrier cycles to keep our team up and kicking. Because of this, we have no use for armor or spell resistance. To complement this strategy, the entire team pushes for high damage, glass cannon gear with ultra high critical strike. Here is how we gear
Armor - 3 pieces of Willows (5% critical strike) and either 4 pieces Twilight’s Embrace or Night Mothers (5% critical strike when completed with staves). Get them Head, chest, and pants imbued, the rest mundis Weapon - Restoration and Destruction staff with your 5 set match (as referred to from above) Jewelry - All 3 get Reduced Mana Cost. Spell Power does almost no bonus to AOE damage.
This is the optimal damage loadout for our strategy, and will ensure you cut like a knife on the surges! If you are looking for a good priced set, message our guild crafters with your level and the rarity you want. They will give you wholesale prices, just don't expect to micromanage the process. They will send you an optimized set, no customizations. TSYM Plays
This section involves troop deployment, and basic plays you can expect to hear during most engagements. We have situational plays we dust off for specific counters, and we explain those on the field when we deploy them.
Primar Buffs - This is when we trigger all primary barriers (assigned by commander), as well as assigned warhorn, Fragmented Shield, and Retreating Maneuver 4. This is called about 10 seconds before clash, and is followed by a count down to surge.
Countdown to surge - A typically 3-5 second countdown to allow for immediate short duration combat buffs. If the commander does not have time for this, do only your priority buffs then hit the enemy. Once these are applied, rapidly cast heals while the team closes distance to allow for a double dip of ultimate gain during combat. Just prior to clash with the enemy, pop an equilibrium and dive!
Shatter - This is a maneuver play intended to reduce the teams vulnerability to pain train or alpha strikes. When called, run quickly away from every other TSYM member. Once spread out, resume healing or damage as called.
Disengage - This maneuver play is simple. Stop whatever you are doing, and get your ass to the commander. Delay with this play can put the entire team in danger, and should
Emergency Disengage - When the commander sees an imminent wipe, they can call this. Several things happen all at once, so pay attention! ALL members trigger their ultimate abilities, defensive if you have them, offensive if you dont. All purgers dump mana and spam purge. All templars pop Retreating Maneuver, and all other players switch immediately to heal mode and dump mana on healing. At the same time, all players shatter away from the damage, then rapidly move to the crown for a regroup.
I’m PVP READY, now what?!?!
This section is for those who have met the basic requirements for PVP ready, and would like to continue building their effectiveness.
Siege Weapon Shield 4 - This is a high priority item for TSYM. When sieging, have the ability to drop this shield, and well ensure no team will push us off a keep with their siege. The reduction is actually insane, making even oils dumping on our team do next to no damage.
Efficient Purge 4 - By taking this role, you are volunteering to be the reason we survive our hits against 200 enemies. By spamming purges, select members of the guild keep us from taking too much damage, and keep us from being rooted and jumped after the team pushes through. To fill this role, simply get Purge from the Alliance War Tree support, and level it to Efficient Purge Morph 4. Now replace your Volcanic Rune on the healing bar, and keep in healing mode spamming purge when we’re in assault mode. Only join the damage group when the enemy is in full route, or we are fighting PVE mobs.
FOOD - The preferred om nom noms are stat enhancing food like Honey Pudding that increases your mana and stamina bar. Get lots of these, and have them on at all times. No stat is bad, as health one enhance our barrier, stam ones make sure you don't get pinned down, and mana ones allow for more damage before reverting to healing mode.
Potions - If you are a Purger, you get the 3 stat recovery potions allowing you to use your health bar for mana, and purge that much more. If you are a DPS (everyone else) you use Spell Power Potions. These pots increase your critical strike, spell power, and mana regen. Here are the mats.
3 Stat Recovery Potions - Bugloss, Mountain Flower, and Columbine Spell Critical Potions - Lady’s Smock, Columbine, Water Hycanth
To easily get tons of these mats, go to the Hollow City in Cold Harbor, and run around in town. In a few hours, you’ll have a TON of mats! Now just send it to Coronbale, or someone else who is maxxed alchemy, and they will whip you up some killin Cool Aid!
Barrier - The cornerstone of our build! Get this asap, and morph it as the team needs when directed by command. Seriously, ASAP!
Sturdy Horn - This was changed from Aggressive because we moved away from only using impulse. Get this, and our barriers gain 10% strength, thus giving us more survivability!
Razor Caltrops 4 - At one point, we had one of the better field teams cornered in a flag room. They were all on oil pots, and protected from a standard damage rush. To counter these kinds of hold out situations, we created a “smoke them out” play used to end these deadlocks, and it uses caltrops. The entire team equips this ability on their damage bar (in place of one of their class skills. We then round the corner, and fill the room with 20+ caltrops, doing 1000 damage a second to every enemy who doesn't immediately evacuate. So what does it look like to be completely finished?
Rapid Regen / Mutagen 4, Unstoppable 4, Inner Light 4, Barrier 4, PBAOE rank 4, both class abilities ranked 4, Pursuit Deterrent rank 4, Razor Caltrops rank 4, Siege Weapon Shield 4, Efficient Purge 4, Meteor rank 4, Thief Mundis Stone, 100+ food, 400+ potions, 7 piece light armor (not all need orange), ~2900 health in Cyrodiil, 100+ grand soul gems, and optimal enchants on all equipment. Need To Know Information
While in Retreating Maneuver (buff from the support tree of Alliance War), if you attack you will lose this buff. While under the effect of this buff, TSYM does not purge. Therefor if you attack when you should not be, you will be vulnerable to roots and slows. If you are rooted or slowed enough, you will lose the team purges when we attack. This will result in you dying frequently. Hold your attacks until called!
Stay Together! If you are in the back, sprint, if you are ahead, slow down! We call TSYM lagging behind the team limping gazelles, and if you want to know why, watch the nature channel.
Barrier strength is based off of your health. The more health you have, the stronger the shield is! Our optimized setup is to put all 49 attribute points into health, then use your gear for your stamina and mana.