The Revenge of the Ball Groups (because attack of the ball groups was terrible)

Icarus42

Been saying this again and again, and I will say it again. If you allow us to stack Ultimates like EYE OF STORM we will exploit it. Throw in a negate, why not? It propagates balling up in pvp, I guess this what you want zeni. We had some good months until one Tamriel when you introduced WAY too many new sets and monster masks all at once. Now you are like well maybe we should nerf some stuff, gah. Did we not just go through these same growing pains with proxy det and the like? Yes you are nerfing EYE OF STORM 10% but it is the concept of this ultimate that allows these horrid ball groups to occur in Cyrodiil.
For the love of all that is good and holy focus on the CORE game play and stop it with these quarterly updates. We have been kicked from the game because of crashes just about everyday since the 13th of January, how about you focus on that.
Nothing to do with these magnificant animations going off several times per second... ehem, i digress. The rest of the game outside pvp is great! I enjoy pve and just tooling around Tamriel. The first Elder Scrolls game I played was Morrowind back in 2003 or 4? Anyway I love this game, but PVP is REALLY in need of some help. WE will be seeing a lot more lag and game crashes with this new upcoming update with the influx of new sorcs and old it will be 2015 all over again mark my words.
Thank you please discuss, ignore, or crap all over my statements. I have said my piece and am content.
Although if it seems I am focusing on EYE OF THE STORM I am, but there are many other things that are very minor in my opinion compared to what is to come.
The lag is real? yep, and this will go no where? yep

Thelon

i'm not saying it's the blobs, but it's the blobs

Rohamad_Ali

I understand the frustration and stopped using eye myself . I don't run in groups often but there are counters out there that can take out ball groups running destro or bombs . Just too many people copy the same formula in groups and try to fight fire with fire .

If you get a groups with a couple Nightblades running fear and cripple . A couple Templars with bubbles , radiant and cleans . Some sorcs with frags , flame clench ,purge and negates . A couple DKs with Rapids . talons reverse slices and executioners ,really tanky to close in . You have a halfway decent counter to eye of the flame ball groups .

It's all just a matter of looking at the problem in a different way .

Xsorus

Prox det should of never been nerfed. It was the one skill used to control Zerg balls and it was gutted

IxSTALKERxI

Stacking a large number of anything is going to be strong. Not just Eots. If Eots was to be removed from the game it would actually be a buff to 'ball groups'. It's one of the few things in the game that you can wipe them with.

IxSTALKERxI

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

If you get a groups with a couple Nightblades running fear and cripple . A couple Templars with bubbles , radiant and cleans . Some sorcs with frags , flame clench ,purge and negates . A couple DKs with Rapids . talons reverse slices and executioners ,really tanky to close in . You have a halfway decent counter to eye of the flame ball groups .

You're already up to 8-9 players in that group and you've only got what you believe to be a halfway decent counter? :P

But yes, you're right that you can make very strong little groups with the right group comp / builds.

Rohamad_Ali

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

If you get a groups with a couple Nightblades running fear and cripple . A couple Templars with bubbles , radiant and cleans . Some sorcs with frags , flame clench ,purge and negates . A couple DKs with Rapids . talons reverse slices and executioners ,really tanky to close in . You have a halfway decent counter to eye of the flame ball groups .

You're already up to 8-9 players in that group and you've only got what you believe to be a halfway decent counter? :P

But yes, you're right that you can make very strong little groups with the right group comp / builds.

Lol yes well , a lack of vocabulary is a huge problem with me . How would you say those players all need to be really good at their class and geared really well . You can use a specific group comp but people still get rolled on 561's with great gear because they are not "sound players?" With their class . .? I don't know how to say it .

I looked it up

Trying to say "proficient" in groups and personal class playstyle .

Rohamad_Ali

Also with update coming soon we will be encountering even more challenges as AOE caps are lowered to extend damage portions over more players . There will be many Git Gud moments for us all with siege , EoTS and ground ultimates patch day . Going to be so frustrating for some people .

Grouping for buffs and cleanses will be more important that day .

IxSTALKERxI

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Also with update coming soon we will be encountering even more challenges as AOE caps are lowered to extend damage portions over more players . There will be many Git Gud moments for us all with siege , EoTS and ground ultimates patch day . Going to be so frustrating for some people .

Grouping for buffs and cleanses will be more important that day .

Siege isn't affected by AoE caps. EoTS and other large AoE's abilities such as steel tornado, will see a large buff from AoE cap changes though. Survivability of Groups of 6 or less won't be affected at all. Groups sizes of 10 or less won't really notice their survivability drop much as they tend to be loosely stacked anyway. Group sizes of 10+ people will notice their survivability as a group drop quite a lot, especially once you get into the 16-24 sizes, just from the way that their group tends to form as it gets larger.

I still to this day don't understand why they took away the ability to use purge or rapids on players you are not grouped with in the thieves guild patch. It was a massive nerf to pugs, casuals, new players and solo players who are just trying to help their faction at an objective. I thought Rich Lambert wanted to make the game more enjoyable for these types of people?

FENGRUSH

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Also with update coming soon we will be encountering even more challenges as AOE caps are lowered to extend damage portions over more players . There will be many Git Gud moments for us all with siege , EoTS and ground ultimates patch day . Going to be so frustrating for some people .

Grouping for buffs and cleanses will be more important that day .

Siege isn't affected by AoE caps. EoTS and other large AoE's abilities such as steel tornado, will see a large buff from AoE cap changes though. Survivability of Groups of 6 or less won't be affected at all. Groups sizes of 10 or less won't really notice their survivability drop much as they tend to be loosely stacked anyway. Group sizes of 10+ people will notice their survivability as a group drop quite a lot, especially once you get into the 16-24 sizes, just from the way that their group tends to form as it gets larger.

I still to this day don't understand why they took away the ability to use purge or rapids on players you are not grouped with in the thieves guild patch. It was a massive nerf to pugs, casuals, new players and solo players who are just trying to help their faction at an objective. I thought Rich Lambert wanted to make the game more enjoyable for these types of people?

Cyrodiil is a horrible place for new players. But I dont think this is the answer. This is just the way all pubs form zergs. Cyros map has to fundamentally change - and it can be done without investing huge amounts of content creation.

Rohamad_Ali

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Also with update coming soon we will be encountering even more challenges as AOE caps are lowered to extend damage portions over more players . There will be many Git Gud moments for us all with siege , EoTS and ground ultimates patch day . Going to be so frustrating for some people .

Grouping for buffs and cleanses will be more important that day .

Siege isn't affected by AoE caps. EoTS and other large AoE's abilities such as steel tornado, will see a large buff from AoE cap changes though. Survivability of Groups of 6 or less won't be affected at all. Groups sizes of 10 or less won't really notice their survivability drop much as they tend to be loosely stacked anyway. Group sizes of 10+ people will notice their survivability as a group drop quite a lot, especially once you get into the 16-24 sizes, just from the way that their group tends to form as it gets larger.

I still to this day don't understand why they took away the ability to use purge or rapids on players you are not grouped with in the thieves guild patch. It was a massive nerf to pugs, casuals, new players and solo players who are just trying to help their faction at an objective. I thought Rich Lambert wanted to make the game more enjoyable for these types of people?

Siege is not a AOE ? I did not know . What damage classification is siege then ?

IxSTALKERxI

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Also with update coming soon we will be encountering even more challenges as AOE caps are lowered to extend damage portions over more players . There will be many Git Gud moments for us all with siege , EoTS and ground ultimates patch day . Going to be so frustrating for some people .

Grouping for buffs and cleanses will be more important that day .

Siege isn't affected by AoE caps. EoTS and other large AoE's abilities such as steel tornado, will see a large buff from AoE cap changes though. Survivability of Groups of 6 or less won't be affected at all. Groups sizes of 10 or less won't really notice their survivability drop much as they tend to be loosely stacked anyway. Group sizes of 10+ people will notice their survivability as a group drop quite a lot, especially once you get into the 16-24 sizes, just from the way that their group tends to form as it gets larger.

I still to this day don't understand why they took away the ability to use purge or rapids on players you are not grouped with in the thieves guild patch. It was a massive nerf to pugs, casuals, new players and solo players who are just trying to help their faction at an objective. I thought Rich Lambert wanted to make the game more enjoyable for these types of people?

Siege is not a AOE ? I did not know . What damage classification is siege then ?

Siege is AoE, but there is no AoE caps on siege. If you hit 10 players with siege, all 10 players will receive the maximum damage. If you hit 10 players with an AoE ability, 6 players will take full damage and the remaining 4 will take reduced damage due to AoE caps.

Siege is also not affected by block or armor / spell resistances. It can only be reduced by CP and elemental damage reduction passives.

Rohamad_Ali

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Also with update coming soon we will be encountering even more challenges as AOE caps are lowered to extend damage portions over more players . There will be many Git Gud moments for us all with siege , EoTS and ground ultimates patch day . Going to be so frustrating for some people .

Grouping for buffs and cleanses will be more important that day .

Siege isn't affected by AoE caps. EoTS and other large AoE's abilities such as steel tornado, will see a large buff from AoE cap changes though. Survivability of Groups of 6 or less won't be affected at all. Groups sizes of 10 or less won't really notice their survivability drop much as they tend to be loosely stacked anyway. Group sizes of 10+ people will notice their survivability as a group drop quite a lot, especially once you get into the 16-24 sizes, just from the way that their group tends to form as it gets larger.

I still to this day don't understand why they took away the ability to use purge or rapids on players you are not grouped with in the thieves guild patch. It was a massive nerf to pugs, casuals, new players and solo players who are just trying to help their faction at an objective. I thought Rich Lambert wanted to make the game more enjoyable for these types of people?

Siege is not a AOE ? I did not know . What damage classification is siege then ?

Siege is AoE, but there is no AoE caps on siege. If you hit 10 players with siege, all 10 players will receive the maximum damage. If you hit 10 players with an AoE ability, 6 players will take full damage and the remaining 4 will take reduced damage due to AoE caps.

Siege is also not affected by block or armor / spell resistances. It can only be reduced by CP and elemental damage reduction passives.

Thank you for explaining that .

I miss being able to give Rapids to other players not grouped . Purge has not worked right since that patch . I thought it was unnecessary and could of been left the way it was .

FENGRUSH thinks it just supported zergs but the zergs just started making 24 man groups so it didn't matter . Then purge would only work on the same six people and never got fixed forever . They also changed Rapids . What a mess . One thing I do agree is if they put time into content to change objectives all that could be avoided and zerging would actually be less common .

IxSTALKERxI

FENGRUSH wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Also with update coming soon we will be encountering even more challenges as AOE caps are lowered to extend damage portions over more players . There will be many Git Gud moments for us all with siege , EoTS and ground ultimates patch day . Going to be so frustrating for some people .

Grouping for buffs and cleanses will be more important that day .

Siege isn't affected by AoE caps. EoTS and other large AoE's abilities such as steel tornado, will see a large buff from AoE cap changes though. Survivability of Groups of 6 or less won't be affected at all. Groups sizes of 10 or less won't really notice their survivability drop much as they tend to be loosely stacked anyway. Group sizes of 10+ people will notice their survivability as a group drop quite a lot, especially once you get into the 16-24 sizes, just from the way that their group tends to form as it gets larger.

I still to this day don't understand why they took away the ability to use purge or rapids on players you are not grouped with in the thieves guild patch. It was a massive nerf to pugs, casuals, new players and solo players who are just trying to help their faction at an objective. I thought Rich Lambert wanted to make the game more enjoyable for these types of people?

Cyrodiil is a horrible place for new players. But I dont think this is the answer. This is just the way all pubs form zergs. Cyros map has to fundamentally change - and it can be done without investing huge amounts of content creation.

I just feel really bad when I see 20 ungrouped pug's march up to Sej front door repeatedly each day and die to oils, knowing there is nothing I can do to save them lol. So many dead puggles.


I agree with you on the map layout though. I was thinking they could move the outposts so they are equal distance or maybe even slightly closer to the outter keeps (drake, brindle, dragonclaw) to help split up the fights where the factions meet. Maybe move the middle gates/ bridges so that they are closer towards each outposts to encourage people to use the middle gate /bridge more. They would need to allocate their world builders to edit the terrain etc to change the cyrodiil layout but are probably too busy working on future DLC's.

Joy_Division

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Also with update coming soon we will be encountering even more challenges as AOE caps are lowered to extend damage portions over more players . There will be many Git Gud moments for us all with siege , EoTS and ground ultimates patch day . Going to be so frustrating for some people .

Grouping for buffs and cleanses will be more important that day .

I still to this day don't understand why they took away the ability to use purge or rapids on players you are not grouped with in the thieves guild patch. It was a massive nerf to pugs, casuals, new players and solo players who are just trying to help their faction at an objective. I thought Rich Lambert wanted to make the game more enjoyable for these types of people?

They took it away because that was in the ZoS phase of lowering calculations to fix the lag. You're right, how much does it suck when some PuG is getting hammered by cold fire ballista and you can't purge them.

PvP is completely broken. In 1.6, when the current combat mechanics were introduced, I had 18K (non-Cyrodiil) health and did about 13K DPS. Now, I have 18K (non-Cyrodiil) health and do 55K DPS. The only thing ZoS has ever done to make an adjustment was alter Battle Spirit to 50% (from I think 20%). This was way way back in August 2015, when it was acknowledged damage was out of control (I was doing about 18K DPS at that time).

If you are in a confined area such as a Castle and a coordinated group rolls in, you are already instantly exploding right now without any counterplay. I don't care how good you are, the PuG next to you is not and the 15K vicious death from him is going to kill you. Next update you are going to be taking +25% more damage.

Derra

Xsorus wrote: »

Prox det should of never been nerfed. It was the one skill used to control Zerg balls and it was gutted

The only time when it was only used against blobs and not by them was back when it was a casttimeability.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Prox det should of never been nerfed. It was the one skill used to control Zerg balls and it was gutted

The only time when it was only used against blobs and not by them was back when it was a casttimeability.

incorrect XD
https://youtu.be/HWyHEH2osps

diskiukas

Its so boring these days, never thought I will say this ever about ESO PVP. Groups doing their farming stuff mostly, that has nothing to do with objectives. Pugs just run to Chalman gate. mine or Nikel , die, rinse and repeat. I remember days when as solo player you could not keep up up with action. Sad.

Lexxypwns

Eye of the storm doesn't really encourage stacking and balling. In fact if you ball up you're risking more in this patch(and even more in homestead) than at any time other than the stupid det+tether meta

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

diskiukas wrote: »

Its so boring these days, never thought I will say this ever about ESO PVP. Groups doing their farming stuff mostly, that has nothing to do with objectives. Pugs just run to Chalman gate. mine or Nikel , die, rinse and repeat. I remember days when as solo player you could not keep up up with action. Sad.

This is due to the lack of blood porting with camps and no incentive for campaign play. Would be interesting if in the next patch they made it so that the winning faction on a 30 day server top 2% all received 8 legendary upgrades of each type and a random VMA/VDSA weapon. Wonder how that would change things. Unfortunately I doubt that will happen.

zyk

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

I just feel really bad when I see 20 ungrouped pug's march up to Sej front door repeatedly each day and die to oils, knowing there is nothing I can do to save them lol. So many dead puggles.

I think a lot of them don't care. They're just having fun fighting up and down the lanes.

Xsorus

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Prox det should of never been nerfed. It was the one skill used to control Zerg balls and it was gutted

The only time when it was only used against blobs and not by them was back when it was a casttimeability.

I never said it was only against blobs. I said it was the one skill used to control zerg balls and it was.

Think back when Tether/Det was going on..After a solid month of bombing like that you realize how hard it became to actually find groups stacking and or players in general stacking up?

Stacking is still dangerous don't get me wrong, But it was a hell of a lot more dangerous when Det/Tether from a Single Bombing nightblade could wipe your group in a split second.

Now a days no one really even slots Prox Det anymore..Because the damage is absolutely *** poor for everything but hitting 10 people..and even then those 10 people take less damage then they did before the Nerf.

The problem with Prox Det was it was to powerful in 1v1 fights, Or basically when only hitting 1 person...It should of never been gutted in damage past 5 people.

Ellwin

i do think pvp would become alot more exciting if the rewards were more worthwhile. been getting the same gold gear for what, 2 years now?

Satiar

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Prox det should of never been nerfed. It was the one skill used to control Zerg balls and it was gutted

The only time when it was only used against blobs and not by them was back when it was a casttimeability.

I never said it was only against blobs. I said it was the one skill used to control zerg balls and it was.

Think back when Tether/Det was going on..After a solid month of bombing like that you realize how hard it became to actually find groups stacking and or players in general stacking up?

Stacking is still dangerous don't get me wrong, But it was a hell of a lot more dangerous when Det/Tether from a Single Bombing nightblade could wipe your group in a split second.

Now a days no one really even slots Prox Det anymore..Because the damage is absolutely *** poor for everything but hitting 10 people..and even then those 10 people take less damage then they did before the Nerf.

The problem with Prox Det was it was to powerful in 1v1 fights, Or basically when only hitting 1 person...It should of never been gutted in damage past 5 people.

As someone who led raids in both patches, EoTS is far more deadly to stacks than Prox/Tether ever was.

Pchela

Ellwin wrote: »

i do think pvp would become alot more exciting if the rewards were more worthwhile. been getting the same gold gear for what, 2 years now?

Bring back the master weapons!

Lucky28

Pchela wrote: »

Ellwin wrote: »

i do think pvp would become alot more exciting if the rewards were more worthwhile. been getting the same gold gear for what, 2 years now?

Bring back the master weapons!

oh my god, yes!.

Lexxypwns

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Prox det should of never been nerfed. It was the one skill used to control Zerg balls and it was gutted

The only time when it was only used against blobs and not by them was back when it was a casttimeability.

I never said it was only against blobs. I said it was the one skill used to control zerg balls and it was.

Think back when Tether/Det was going on..After a solid month of bombing like that you realize how hard it became to actually find groups stacking and or players in general stacking up?

Stacking is still dangerous don't get me wrong, But it was a hell of a lot more dangerous when Det/Tether from a Single Bombing nightblade could wipe your group in a split second.

Now a days no one really even slots Prox Det anymore..Because the damage is absolutely *** poor for everything but hitting 10 people..and even then those 10 people take less damage then they did before the Nerf.

The problem with Prox Det was it was to powerful in 1v1 fights, Or basically when only hitting 1 person...It should of never been gutted in damage past 5 people.

As someone who led raids in both patches, EoTS is far more deadly to stacks than Prox/Tether ever was.

I keep trying to tell people, ball groups aren't a problem at all this patch. 2 offensive ults can easily wipe 12 people in a choke without even being full damage spec

Satiar

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Prox det should of never been nerfed. It was the one skill used to control Zerg balls and it was gutted

The only time when it was only used against blobs and not by them was back when it was a casttimeability.

I never said it was only against blobs. I said it was the one skill used to control zerg balls and it was.

Think back when Tether/Det was going on..After a solid month of bombing like that you realize how hard it became to actually find groups stacking and or players in general stacking up?

Stacking is still dangerous don't get me wrong, But it was a hell of a lot more dangerous when Det/Tether from a Single Bombing nightblade could wipe your group in a split second.

Now a days no one really even slots Prox Det anymore..Because the damage is absolutely *** poor for everything but hitting 10 people..and even then those 10 people take less damage then they did before the Nerf.

The problem with Prox Det was it was to powerful in 1v1 fights, Or basically when only hitting 1 person...It should of never been gutted in damage past 5 people.

As someone who led raids in both patches, EoTS is far more deadly to stacks than Prox/Tether ever was.

I keep trying to tell people, ball groups aren't a problem at all this patch. 2 offensive ults can easily wipe 12 people in a choke without even being full damage spec

Being a big group is more dangerous than being in a small group nowadays. When I run small 8-12 or so I can maneuver quite easily and get in and out of bad situations while maintaining the firepower of a much larger group (from patches past). There's a certain "cap" of outgoing damage, where overkill becomes vastly inefficient, which you hit very fast as you get bigger. When you're bigger you also become the Target, in that you can't freely maneuver and get in nice bomb spots because the battlefield rotates around the Target.

I've been working on strats to make full raids more efficient for the purpose of fighting faction stacks, but in terms of how they function they're more vulnerable than ever, especially to bomb groups that can skirt around the field and then hit me with firepower equivalent to two 1.7 raids after I've committed to a fight.

In terms of damage vs health, the power creep is very, very real and quite noticeable.

Xsorus

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Prox det should of never been nerfed. It was the one skill used to control Zerg balls and it was gutted

The only time when it was only used against blobs and not by them was back when it was a casttimeability.

I never said it was only against blobs. I said it was the one skill used to control zerg balls and it was.

Think back when Tether/Det was going on..After a solid month of bombing like that you realize how hard it became to actually find groups stacking and or players in general stacking up?

Stacking is still dangerous don't get me wrong, But it was a hell of a lot more dangerous when Det/Tether from a Single Bombing nightblade could wipe your group in a split second.

Now a days no one really even slots Prox Det anymore..Because the damage is absolutely *** poor for everything but hitting 10 people..and even then those 10 people take less damage then they did before the Nerf.

The problem with Prox Det was it was to powerful in 1v1 fights, Or basically when only hitting 1 person...It should of never been gutted in damage past 5 people.

As someone who led raids in both patches, EoTS is far more deadly to stacks than Prox/Tether ever was.

If you say so, I'll be picking up Bombing again next patch to see how well it works.

thankyourat

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Prox det should of never been nerfed. It was the one skill used to control Zerg balls and it was gutted

The only time when it was only used against blobs and not by them was back when it was a casttimeability.

I never said it was only against blobs. I said it was the one skill used to control zerg balls and it was.

Think back when Tether/Det was going on..After a solid month of bombing like that you realize how hard it became to actually find groups stacking and or players in general stacking up?

Stacking is still dangerous don't get me wrong, But it was a hell of a lot more dangerous when Det/Tether from a Single Bombing nightblade could wipe your group in a split second.

Now a days no one really even slots Prox Det anymore..Because the damage is absolutely *** poor for everything but hitting 10 people..and even then those 10 people take less damage then they did before the Nerf.

The problem with Prox Det was it was to powerful in 1v1 fights, Or basically when only hitting 1 person...It should of never been gutted in damage past 5 people.

As someone who led raids in both patches, EoTS is far more deadly to stacks than Prox/Tether ever was.

I keep trying to tell people, ball groups aren't a problem at all this patch. 2 offensive ults can easily wipe 12 people in a choke without even being full damage spec

A well built ball group is made up of 30%-50℅ magplars, even with two high damage bombers it can be difficult to wipe a group like that. What I liked about soul thether/proxy was it was instant burst damage. There was no way a group could react to it

KisoValley

Personally run in groups with 4-5 magplars. Guess how often we wipe during a raid? I can tell you it's a very low amount.

People need to learn to adapt their group comps to the meta until Eots gets gutted which it eventually will.