What is wrong with Viper?

imnotanother

So I've be wearing a 5 piece set of Viper for the last 8 months or so. I used to do trials a lot and the crew was all about DPS.
Now I haven't changed my gear since last April, so I guess I might be out of the loop (took a couple months off).

I only wear PVE gear because that is all I do. Every once in awhile I am challenged to a duel. But if I heavy attack and Viper procs, I usually get a salty whisper about my lack of skill and my worthlessness.

Am I missing something?
I feel like it is quite fair to wear any gear that is available. But is this set broken?

MickeyBN

It provides free damage from any melee attack. PvPers despise free damage. In a game that relies so heavily on different stats contributing to your total damage, it's considered pretty cheesy to have a set that provides such a considerable boost to your burst damage.

imnotanother

MickeyBN wrote: »

It provides free damage from any melee attack. PvPers despise free damage. In a game that relies so heavily on different stats contributing to your total damage, it's considered pretty cheesy to have a set that provides such a considerable boost to your burst damage.

This is not the only set that allows for more damage, is it?
Cheesy? Damn tell that to any Trial Guild who picks the team by DPS test times.
Are all of the 5th bonuses on 5 piece sets considered "cheesy" for whatever boost they provide?

Mic1007

Trials Guilds don't use 5-piece Proc sets. They tend to use Night Mother's Gaze, Twice-Born Star, etc.

Those are sets that boost stats up, allowing for hogher sustained DPS.

imnotanother

Mic1007 wrote: »

Trials Guilds don't use 5-piece Proc sets. They tend to use Night Mother's Gaze, Twice-Born Star, etc.

Those are sets that boost stats up, allowing for hogher sustained DPS.

I run 5xTBS, 5xViper, 1xKena, 1xBloodspawn.

Tonturri

imnotanother wrote: »

MickeyBN wrote: »

It provides free damage from any melee attack. PvPers despise free damage. In a game that relies so heavily on different stats contributing to your total damage, it's considered pretty cheesy to have a set that provides such a considerable boost to your burst damage.

This is not the only set that allows for more damage, is it?
Cheesy? Damn tell that to any Trial Guild who picks the team by DPS test times.
Are all of the 5th bonuses on 5 piece sets considered "cheesy" for whatever boost they provide?

PvP is competing against other players. It's about you the player outskilling/playing/whatever whoever you're fighting against. If I recall correctly, the beef against viper is that your armor is doing the work for you. You just have to attack - it could be a light attack - and your Viper armor does a large amount of burst damage for you. It's extremely annoying to lose or have to fight against someone where, no matter what their skill level is, it's more like I'm fighting their armor than the actual player.

Compare viper to, say...I dunno, Hundings? 5th bonus is weapon damage. With that 5th bonus, a bad player is still bad, a good player is still good. However, replace it with viper and a bad player can, via their armor, be as effective as someone who is above their skill level. And it doesn't even require any skill to utilize the armor beyond equipping it.

Don't even start comparing it to PvE, where all bosses do the same thing every time and it's players vs AI. It's nowhere near the same thing (and actually, you're gimping yourself a bit by using viper instead of another set)

starkerealm

Because, in general, with proc sets, you don't need to actually have any skill at the game, just get lucky with your dice rolls.

I realize that's an egregious oversimplification, but that's certainly the perception, and one that's not entirely off base.

Personally, I find most proc sets boring to run. Some, Briarheart, for instance, are kinda fun to mess around with, but stuff like Viper or Velidreth? Not so much. It's just, "oh, hey, let me explode in your face for extra damage."

imnotanother

Ok, I can see where some of the frustration may come from. But in the end, the set is working as intended and not broken?

Iselin

It's because some people think MMORPG PVP and duels should be just like MOBAs or FPS.

So a viper FG dropped set is cheese but legendary everything is skill

starkerealm

imnotanother wrote: »

Ok, I can see where some of the frustration may come from. But in the end, the set is working as intended and not broken?

No, it's not working as intended, and is broken. The ability for proc sets to crit is going away next month.

EDIT: To be fair, this affects some of the other proc sets more severely than Viper, but still, as a whole... they're not supposed to do that (apparently).

Tonturri

imnotanother wrote: »

Ok, I can see where some of the frustration may come from. But in the end, the set is working as intended and not broken?

I could design an armor set that, say...whenever I light attack, everyone within a 1 mile radius dies instantly. If it did just that, it would certainly be working at intended. Just because something is working as intended does not mean it is balanced.

imnotanother

Tonturri wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Ok, I can see where some of the frustration may come from. But in the end, the set is working as intended and not broken?

I could design an armor set that, say...whenever I light attack, everyone within a 1 mile radius dies instantly. If it did just that, it would certainly be working at intended. Just because something is working as intended does not mean it is balanced.

Uhh what set does that, Champ? Lets not turn this discussion into "what ifs and buts"

dem0n1k

Just reply "it's not broken.. it's working great!" /laugh /sweep

victory.

Dagoth_Rac

People dislike Viper because the poison damage from it is static, rather than scaling based on your stats like most attacks. So you can put together a super tanky build or a super sustain build and still get big bursts of damage as if you were a glass cannon build. In PvE, where you need sustained DPS over long periods of time against enemies with tens of millions of health, Viper is fine. No one is running 40k health on a DPS in PvE or a dodge roll build on a DPS in PvE or a perma-block build on a DPS in PvE. You would not be able to do sustained high DPS. Even with Viper in PvE, you still need to invest in damage-focused stats like weapon damage and wear damage-focused medium armor pieces. Which means you have to sacrifice some survivability and utility. You will hit hard but this is balanced out by the fact that you yourself can be hit hard or you can be run out of resources. "Proc sets" like Viper let you hit hard while wearing gear and using skills that prevent you yourself from getting hit hard or running out of resources. Which "feels" like cheating. Builds should have strengths and weaknesses but proc set builds feel like all strength and no weaknesses.

If you are truly built out like a PvE DPS, you are probably using Viper as intended. But there are a lot of builds out there where people are built like tanks but hitting like glass cannon DPS. Which may be possible with current game design, but was not really intended. And sets like Viper are a key part of builds like that and thus Viper leaves a bad taste in people's mouths.

Skagsmasha

Bcuz you're using a "known" broken proc set... Expect the salt to be poured on!!!

TheImperfect

I think it's just someone having a tantrum because they didn't win. If they want they can use proc armor sets too and level the playing field more or monster helms. You haven't cheated and done what the game allows. Personally I feel that is ok and I have done a very tiny amount of pvp and been continually stealth ganked by one player using a velidreth set but found it amusing rather than aggravating and wouldn't let it put me off.

Tonturri

imnotanother wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Ok, I can see where some of the frustration may come from. But in the end, the set is working as intended and not broken?

I could design an armor set that, say...whenever I light attack, everyone within a 1 mile radius dies instantly. If it did just that, it would certainly be working at intended. Just because something is working as intended does not mean it is balanced.

Uhh what set does that, Champ? Lets not turn this discussion into "what ifs and buts"

There is no what if or but about it. Just because a set has no bugs and functions as the description text says does not mean it is balanced. It was an example to prove a point. Just because Viper...does whatever it is viper is supposed to do doesn't mean it's balanced. Now is Viper was, for whatever reason, doing a % more damage than the tooltip said because of a typo in the code, then sure.

When people say 'broken' they don't mean that the set is not functioning properly - more often than not, I've found, they mean that it is imbalanced.

Edit: Don't focus on the example, focus on the point I made. Geez.

imnotanother

Skagsmasha wrote: »

Bcuz you're using a "known" broken proc set... Expect the salt to be poured on!!!

See, I have/had no idea it is broken. How is it broken? I am completely unaware. Is there a link to a ZOS staff member officially stating that it is broken?

starkerealm

Tonturri wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Ok, I can see where some of the frustration may come from. But in the end, the set is working as intended and not broken?

I could design an armor set that, say...whenever I light attack, everyone within a 1 mile radius dies instantly. If it did just that, it would certainly be working at intended. Just because something is working as intended does not mean it is balanced.

Uhh what set does that, Champ? Lets not turn this discussion into "what ifs and buts"

There is no what if or but about it. Just because a set has no bugs and functions as the description text says does not mean it is balanced. It was an example to prove a point. Just because Viper...does whatever it is viper is supposed to do doesn't mean it's balanced. Now is Viper was, for whatever reason, doing a % more damage than the tooltip said because of a typo in the code, then sure.

When people say 'broken' they don't mean that the set is not functioning properly - more often than not, I've found, they mean that it is imbalanced.

Edit: Don't focus on the example, focus on the point I made. Geez.

Yeah, but your example was so ripe for mocking.

In fairness, you had a legitimate point. A poor example, but a legitimate point.

The set is broken in the context of being a balancing issue.

starkerealm

imnotanother wrote: »

Skagsmasha wrote: »

Bcuz you're using a "known" broken proc set... Expect the salt to be poured on!!!

See, I have/had no idea it is broken. How is it broken? I am completely unaware. Is there a link to a ZOS staff member officially stating that it is broken?

There was a discussion a while back about how proc sets critting were an issue. Like I said, it's less of a problem with Viper, but, in general, the direct damage proc sets are not working as intended at the moment. Even though, historically, they could always crit.

Tonturri

starkerealm wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Ok, I can see where some of the frustration may come from. But in the end, the set is working as intended and not broken?

I could design an armor set that, say...whenever I light attack, everyone within a 1 mile radius dies instantly. If it did just that, it would certainly be working at intended. Just because something is working as intended does not mean it is balanced.

Uhh what set does that, Champ? Lets not turn this discussion into "what ifs and buts"

There is no what if or but about it. Just because a set has no bugs and functions as the description text says does not mean it is balanced. It was an example to prove a point. Just because Viper...does whatever it is viper is supposed to do doesn't mean it's balanced. Now is Viper was, for whatever reason, doing a % more damage than the tooltip said because of a typo in the code, then sure.

When people say 'broken' they don't mean that the set is not functioning properly - more often than not, I've found, they mean that it is imbalanced.

Edit: Don't focus on the example, focus on the point I made. Geez.

Yeah, but your example was so ripe for mocking.

In fairness, you had a legitimate point. A poor example, but a legitimate point.

The set is broken in the context of being a balancing issue.

Admittedly I probably should've just used Viper as an example, but I try to go to extremes for examples - I've found it helps people understand the point I'm trying to make. But, blah, I always forget people can veer off course and focus on the example...my bad

starkerealm wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Ok, I can see where some of the frustration may come from. But in the end, the set is working as intended and not broken?

I could design an armor set that, say...whenever I light attack, everyone within a 1 mile radius dies instantly. If it did just that, it would certainly be working at intended. Just because something is working as intended does not mean it is balanced.

Uhh what set does that, Champ? Lets not turn this discussion into "what ifs and buts"

There is no what if or but about it. Just because a set has no bugs and functions as the description text says does not mean it is balanced. It was an example to prove a point. Just because Viper...does whatever it is viper is supposed to do doesn't mean it's balanced. Now is Viper was, for whatever reason, doing a % more damage than the tooltip said because of a typo in the code, then sure.

When people say 'broken' they don't mean that the set is not functioning properly - more often than not, I've found, they mean that it is imbalanced.

Edit: Don't focus on the example, focus on the point I made. Geez.

Yeah, but your example was so ripe for mocking.

In fairness, you had a legitimate point. A poor example, but a legitimate point.

The set is broken in the context of being a balancing issue.

He doesn't even seem to have read most of my posts. Not my fault *sobs in corner* Oh well.

Dagoth_Rac

imnotanother wrote: »

Skagsmasha wrote: »

Bcuz you're using a "known" broken proc set... Expect the salt to be poured on!!!

See, I have/had no idea it is broken. How is it broken? I am completely unaware. Is there a link to a ZOS staff member officially stating that it is broken?

Yes, ZOS have stated on numerous occasions that they are aware that proc sets are a problem in PvP. This thread, in particular:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/301699/proc-sets/p1

Comment #59 is from Gina where she confirms it is a problem and they are working on solutions. In the next Update, they are removing the ability of Viper (and other proc sets) to do critical damage, in an attempt to reduce the burst damage. Rich talks about that here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/310623/update-13-sneak-peak-notes/p1

A lot of players are of the opinion that a blanket removal of critical damage from all set bonuses is a lazy fix that ruins a lot of sets that do not have the burst potential of Viper, Selene, Tremorscale, Velidreth, etc. But those are arguments about the solution. No one is really arguing against proc sets being more powerful than intended in PvP. That is kind of a given.

imnotanother

Tonturri wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Ok, I can see where some of the frustration may come from. But in the end, the set is working as intended and not broken?

I could design an armor set that, say...whenever I light attack, everyone within a 1 mile radius dies instantly. If it did just that, it would certainly be working at intended. Just because something is working as intended does not mean it is balanced.

Uhh what set does that, Champ? Lets not turn this discussion into "what ifs and buts"

There is no what if or but about it. Just because a set has no bugs and functions as the description text says does not mean it is balanced. It was an example to prove a point. Just because Viper...does whatever it is viper is supposed to do doesn't mean it's balanced. Now is Viper was, for whatever reason, doing a % more damage than the tooltip said because of a typo in the code, then sure.

When people say 'broken' they don't mean that the set is not functioning properly - more often than not, I've found, they mean that it is imbalanced.

Edit: Don't focus on the example, focus on the point I made. Geez.

Yeah, but your example was so ripe for mocking.

In fairness, you had a legitimate point. A poor example, but a legitimate point.

The set is broken in the context of being a balancing issue.

Admittedly I probably should've just used Viper as an example, but I try to go to extremes for examples - I've found it helps people understand the point I'm trying to make. But, blah, I always forget people can veer off course and focus on the example...my bad

starkerealm wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Ok, I can see where some of the frustration may come from. But in the end, the set is working as intended and not broken?

I could design an armor set that, say...whenever I light attack, everyone within a 1 mile radius dies instantly. If it did just that, it would certainly be working at intended. Just because something is working as intended does not mean it is balanced.

Uhh what set does that, Champ? Lets not turn this discussion into "what ifs and buts"

There is no what if or but about it. Just because a set has no bugs and functions as the description text says does not mean it is balanced. It was an example to prove a point. Just because Viper...does whatever it is viper is supposed to do doesn't mean it's balanced. Now is Viper was, for whatever reason, doing a % more damage than the tooltip said because of a typo in the code, then sure.

When people say 'broken' they don't mean that the set is not functioning properly - more often than not, I've found, they mean that it is imbalanced.

Edit: Don't focus on the example, focus on the point I made. Geez.

Yeah, but your example was so ripe for mocking.

In fairness, you had a legitimate point. A poor example, but a legitimate point.

The set is broken in the context of being a balancing issue.

He doesn't even seem to have read most of my posts. Not my fault *sobs in corner* Oh well.

Sorry, I'll throw you a reply.
I can understand your thought process a bit better now knowing that you mean unbalanced when you say broken. In the future, I would just use the exact word you are meaning rather than a different one.

As for the example, it was a "what if" situation. Where it was so impossible, it was hard to compare.

Reminded me of Uncle Rico
https://youtu.be/WjXZvcgHIXY

Cronopoly

imnotanother wrote: »

So I've be wearing a 5 piece set of Viper for the last 8 months or so. I used to do trials a lot and the crew was all about DPS.
Now I haven't changed my gear since last April, so I guess I might be out of the loop (took a couple months off).

I only wear PVE gear because that is all I do. Every once in awhile I am challenged to a duel. But if I heavy attack and Viper procs, I usually get a salty whisper about my lack of skill and my worthlessness.

Am I missing something?
I feel like it is quite fair to wear any gear that is available. But is this set broken?

Its not just Viper, however it's a host of Monster, and 5 piece sets. That can and will fire from a single light attack/Taunt. With Viper, Velidreth, and say Widowmaker...At first or 2nd contact at the most, you can be taken from 100% health to Zero instantly. No reaction, Don't bother wasting your time trying to break free, just take it like a man/woman as you are 1 shot. It's typically 3 or 4 things that show up in your death log, but GUARANTEED VIPER IS ALWAYS THERE .

Most times you see people wearing two proc sets at least, so you may have 90% of your health stripped away from a light attack or a PVP taunt in the case of Tremorscale w/Viper. So the next gnat or fly that lands on you kills you. Great stuff.

In reaction to this, Medium and Light Armor are severely underperforming just from mitigation pushing many to Heavy Armor sets just to survive initial burst...and even that has been proven to not work if any of the proc sets crits...fuggetaboutit...dead.

Right now PVP is in a funky broken state. Most are forced into Destro Ultimate or Proc sets just to compete...We are using what is available...so I have non complaints about the people playing. I was in Fungal Grotto today farming Viper pieces for my Stam Sorc. RNJesus hates me though, so no worries about me getting the Viper set anytime soon.

On CP160 Dungeon DPS sets, I constantly get only Sturdy, Prosperous, & Training like I stole it... I digress.

Time to Kill (TTK) is horribly broken and we have seen no light at the end of the tunnel...but the oncoming train (destro Ult) lol...

imnotanother

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Skagsmasha wrote: »

Bcuz you're using a "known" broken proc set... Expect the salt to be poured on!!!

See, I have/had no idea it is broken. How is it broken? I am completely unaware. Is there a link to a ZOS staff member officially stating that it is broken?

Yes, ZOS have stated on numerous occasions that they are aware that proc sets are a problem in PvP. This thread, in particular:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/301699/proc-sets/p1

Comment #59 is from Gina where she confirms it is a problem and they are working on solutions. In the next Update, they are removing the ability of Viper (and other proc sets) to do critical damage, in an attempt to reduce the burst damage. Rich talks about that here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/310623/update-13-sneak-peak-notes/p1

A lot of players are of the opinion that a blanket removal of critical damage from all set bonuses is a lazy fix that ruins a lot of sets that do not have the burst potential of Viper, Selene, Tremorscale, Velidreth, etc. But those are arguments about the solution. No one is really arguing against proc sets being more powerful than intended in PvP. That is kind of a given.

Thank you for the links!
I agree about the Crit hits being fixed.

Iselin

A sore loser will always think that the way you won is cheese when in fact all that happened was that even though he spent weeks poring over all the current metas, studying Sypher's videos until all his moves were memorized, using only the most OP skills, grinding CP to the max, and spending all his gold on making everything he uses legendary, he still lost and THAT is just not acceptable.

His unfair advantage (which he calls 'skill") just got beat... queue the sad violin music.

starkerealm

Or it could just be that the proc sets are cancer, that's an option too.

Jaronking

starkerealm wrote: »

Or it could just be that the proc sets are cancer, that's an option too.

I think this is more of the problem then what the other poster said.

Gilvoth

Skagsmasha wrote: »

Bcuz you're using a "known" broken proc set... Expect the salt to be poured on!!!

that is exactly the truth.
well said @Skagsmasha
every time people think they are skilled and think it is themselves that has won that fight when infact it was a failed mechanic, or a failed proc set of armor, or a failed skill that is broken or use ways to win the fight that is not intended by the game creators [like going under the ground after attacking and killing someone] is what i really get angry about and really HATE that it happens, and that it is even allowed' to happen me and everyone else that is playing the way the game was designed to be played.

bg22

Who cares what they think. Did they buy your game? Do they pay your bills? Do they have to fight you? Are they restricted from using the same set?

Tell them to go Duel some other nub and maybe they can stroke their e-pen if they're lucky enough to win for once.

STEVIL

imnotanother wrote: »

MickeyBN wrote: »

It provides free damage from any melee attack. PvPers despise free damage. In a game that relies so heavily on different stats contributing to your total damage, it's considered pretty cheesy to have a set that provides such a considerable boost to your burst damage.

This is not the only set that allows for more damage, is it?
Cheesy? Damn tell that to any Trial Guild who picks the team by DPS test times.
Are all of the 5th bonuses on 5 piece sets considered "cheesy" for whatever boost they provide?

No - i call the "bad" proc sets "recap" sets cuz the difference in a group or trial between vipers and NMg is NMG will cause more net damage while vipers will actually show its damage as a separate entry on the recap screen and NMg wont.

So, that means you can video display the "OMG VIPER DAMAGE" and not video display the"likely more damage "gain from NMG"

But it all boils down to First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics.