Adding difficulty ratings to veteran dungeons

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Hey all. Yolo here,

So there have been several recent heated discussions concerning vet dungeon difficulty, low-CP players getting kicked from groups, players queuing for difficult dungeons without understanding the basic mechanics, etc. Besides for the usual finger pointing and elitism, there were a few good points that surfaced out of these discussions.

• Vet dungeons vary wildly in difficulty and it is frustrating for a new player to determine if their individual skill level is adequate for the dungeon they just queued for.
• CP is a very poor measure of someone's ability to perform their role well in a vet dungeon, but currently it is the only visible indicator of advancement so people rely on it to guage competency.
• Normal Versions of Vet dungeons DO NOT prepare new players for the vet versions as some of the mechanics are missing or can be healed/DPS'ed through.
• No training or rating system exists for vet dungeons. There is a steep learning curve for some of them and experienced players may not have the time or patience to walk someone through an extremely difficult dungeon, especially over group chat.

Ultimately, it falls on ZOS to create an environment where newer players can learn and better themselves without such a steep curve but failing that, perhaps the community could help.


I propose we create a rating system for vet dungeons and measure each one objectively.


Other games have build in difficulty ratings and I feel its important for new player retention that they know whether they are queuing for the dungeon equivalent of "Through the Fire and Flames."

Here is a mock-up of what it might look like: Note that for now I am considering the difficulty of the dungeon as a whole and not the difficulty of individual roles.


The second part would be to create a standard for measuring the difficulty of these dungeons from the perspective of a new player. Note the bolded part. If you come into this thread to tell everyone that X dungeon should be rated easier because your build can solo it, well have fun with your proc set nerfs =p.

Keeping the experience of a new player in mind, this is how I would create the scale.

1. Skull: Base level of difficulty. No real one shot mechanics that aren't avoidable or tauntable. Mechanics are non-lethal (or healable) if ignored. Dungeon has no lethal DPS checks.
2. Skulls: Moderate difficulty. Some mechanics must be followed avoid wipe or one shot but they are easy to understand and execute.
3. Skulls: Hard difficulty. At least one boss with a complex mechanic, kill order or special instructions that must be followed to avoid wipe. Moderate DPS check. Untauntable one shots or heavy AOE damage mechanic.
4. Skulls: Extreme difficulty. Contains complex mechanics or requires complex strategies (that are difficult to explain over text) that must be followed precisely to prevent a wipe. Contains a strong DPS check that results in wipe.

• How would you rate the dungeons to better inform new players?
• Do you agree with my assessments?

If you have any suggestions on how to improve my skull scale (again ONLY from the perspective of a new player) or you want to take the time and post your own assessment of each vet dungeons's difficulty, please do so on the comments. I will edit this with any helpful suggestions after sufficient feedback.

EDIT: Wow, thanks everyone for the great feedback. Here are some ideas from the comments.

• Higher tier dungeons would have to be "Unlocked" by completing lower tier dungeons first.
• Add a fifth tier and consider both SotH dungeons as more technically complex than the Imperial City Dungeons.
• Add an undaunted questline that taught roles (tank,healer,dps) and mechanics (stay out of red circles, watch for boss tells). Thanks to tinythinker for this one.

Auricle

This is an excellent solution to a reoccurring issue. This would be simple for ZoS to implement, perhaps along with some basic explanation of the skull rating (or whatever totem they decide to go with to represent difficulty). I really hope someone relevant is reading this and passing it up the chain.

susmitds

I would give Fungal Grotto 2 three stars from the view of a newbie. They always seem to mess the simple mechanics.
Also Direfrost last boss is a major DPS check and definitely worth more than one start.
DC1 is very simple, even for complete newbies to warrant for two stars.
Blackheart Havens gets really messy on last boss without proper positioning, especially for newer players who can't burn boss before 1-2 skeleton transformations.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

susmitds wrote: »

I would give Fungal Grotto 3 stars from the view of a newbie. They always seem to mess the simple mechanics.

You are right. I don't think the mechanics are too difficult to understand in that fight but the second boss serves as a moderate DPS check. So it does deserve to be in the three star category.

Mojmir

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Hey all. Yolo here,

So there have been several recent heated discussions concerning vet dungeon difficulty, low-CP players getting kicked from groups, players queuing for difficult dungeons without understanding the basic mechanics, etc. Besides for the usual finger pointing and elitism, there were a few good points that surfaced out of these discussions.

• Vet dungeons vary wildly in difficulty and it is frustrating for a new player to determine if their individual skill level is adequate for the dungeon they just queued for.
• CP is a very poor measure of someone's ability to perform their role well in a vet dungeon.
• Normal Versions of Vet dungeons DO NOT prepare new players for the vet versions as some of the mechanics are missing or can be healed/DPS'ed through.
• No training or rating system exists for vet dungeons. There is a steep learning curve for some of them and experienced players may not have the time or patience to walk someone through an extremely difficult dungeon, especially over group chat.

Ultimately, it falls on ZOS to create an environment where newer players can learn and better themselves without such a steep curve but failing that, perhaps the community could help.


I propose we create a rating system for vet dungeons and measure each one objectively.


Other games have build in difficulty ratings and I feel its important for new player retention that they know whether they are queuing for the dungeon equivalent of "Through the Fire and Flames."

Here is a mock-up of what it might look like: Note that for now I am considering the difficulty of the dungeon as a whole and not the difficulty of individual roles.


The second part would be to create a standard for measuring the difficulty of these dungeons from the perspective of a new player. Note the bolded part. If you come into this thread to tell everyone that X dungeon should be rated easier because your build can solo it, well have fun with your proc set nerfs =p.

Keeping the experience of a new player in mind, this is how I would create the scale.

1. Skull: Base level of difficulty. No real one shot mechanics that aren't avoidable or tauntable. Mechanics are non-lethal (or healable) if ignored. Dungeon has no lethal DPS checks.
2. Skulls: Moderate difficulty. Some mechanics must be followed avoid wipe or one shot but they are easy to understand and execute.
3. Skulls: Hard difficulty. At least one boss with a complex mechanic, kill order or special instructions that must be followed to avoid wipe. Moderate DPS check. Untauntable one shots or heavy AOE damage mechanic.
4. Skulls: Extreme difficulty. Contains complex mechanics or requires complex strategies (that are difficult to explain over text) that must be followed precisely to prevent a wipe. Contains a strong DPS check that results in wipe.

• How would you rate the dungeons to better inform new players?
• Do you agree with my assessments?

If you have any suggestions on how to improve my skull scale (again ONLY from the perspective of a new player) or you want to take the time and post your own assessment of each vet dungeons's difficulty, please do so on the comments. I will edit this with any helpful suggestions after sufficient feedback.

+1 for the band listed

dday3six

People still choose to smoke cigarettes even though they know cigarette smoke causes cancer.

It's a creative solution, but unless there is some sort of lockout until X scenario is meet (CP, or some type of gear score requirements and so on, though that kind of thing has it's own set of issues) people would still choose to get in over their head regardless of warning.

SquareSausage

I very much like the idea, however with queuing for a 'random dungeon' which most new people will do outside of pledge for the experience they will still more than likely get dumped into one of the DLC, continuing the problem.



Spindle1, final boss has 1 shot which must be dodged! and happens often! 2 or 3

Spindle 2: the boss with the red circle, many times ive seen people run through it, and do it again and again everytime they res. 2

banished 2: dps check with the boss who spawns the adds, and also daedroth on final boss. 2 or 3

DC 2, dps check on the netch, and the mechanical army and the engine guardian boss ranged dps and adds dps check 2 or 3

Arx is quite easy, no real 1 shots or dps checks, just mechanics to learn. 2

DFK the final boss has one shots and dps checks and stamina resource management issues for magicka uses when breaking free. 2 or 3

BHH dps check final boss 2

Blessed Crucible firebugs need to go down quick, and final boss one shots with her flame ability. 2 or 3


Just my opinion of course.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Why 1-4 skulls? Why not 5? Seems like it would be more specific and more widely understood, as most things that are rated by this sort of system are either 3 or 5. Not sure why you choose 4. Otherwise this is a good suggestion.

raj72616a

5 and 6 stars are for trials, i guess?

obscure7

My own personal rating system:

10/10 - vMoL
9/10 - vMA, vet trials
8/10 - vDSA
7/10 - vDLC dungeons
6/10 - vCoA2
5/10 - vCoH2, normal trials, most world bosses
4/10 - vet dungeons
3/10 - normal DLC dungeons
2/10 - most normal content
1/10 - story and overland content

OrphanHelgen

I thought elden hollow 2 was only one skull difficulty

ryanborror

Veteran Dungeons (out of *****)

Fungal Grotto 1- *
Fungal Grotto 2- ***
Spindleclutch 1- **
Spindleclutch 2- ***
Banished Cells 1- *
Banished Cells 2- ***
Darkshade Caverns 1- *
Darkshade Caverns 2 - ***
Elden Hollow 1- *
Elden Hollow 2- **
Wayrest Sewers 1- *
Wayrest Sewers 2- **
Arx Corinium- **
City of Ash 1- *
City of Ash 2- ****
Crypt of Hearts 1- *
Crypt of Hearts 2- ***
Direfrost Keep- **
Tempest Island- ***
Volenfell- **
Blackheart Haven- ***
Blessed Crucible- **
Selenes Web- **
Vaults of Madness- *
Cradle of Shadows- *****
Imperial City Prison- ****
Ruins of Mazzatun- *****
White Gold Tower- ****

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Why 1-4 skulls? Why not 5? Seems like it would be more specific and more widely understood, as most things that are rated by this sort of system are either 3 or 5. Not sure why you choose 4. Otherwise this is a good suggestion.

I chose 4 because I was trying to keep it simple. I understand that many systems are out of 5 or 10. I don't want just an arbitrary number system where a higher number is just someone's opinion of more difficulty.

I wanted to really dissect WHY some dungeons are harder for new players than others. So that it is easy to categorize dungeons by mechanics.

• If you can burn through it without knowing mechanics - level 1
• If the mechanics are simple but you have to do them - level 2
• If the mechanics are harder and there is a moderate DPS check or untauntable onshot - level 3
• If the mechanics are BOTH complex AND critical or there is a severe DPS check - level 4

Lets use a few examples.

City of Ash 1 is a great example of a level 1 dungeon. There are mechanics, but they can be ignored. Just stay out of red and you are golden. Last boss puts a 45k dot on you that you have to jump in the water to extinguish. However, I can just spam BoL and heal through it. Sometimes my pugs don't even know its on them till the boss dies and I stop healing them and they drop dead as they try to loot. Its fun.

Wayrest Sewers is a good level 2 dungeon. Malubeth has one mechanic that WILL kill one player if two others don't run to the altars, but the fight is easy and the mechanic is easy to explain in group chat.

Level 3 is a bit more difficult to explain. This is the level were PUGs start not being able to complete.
I reserve for level three those dungeons that start to have moderate DPS checks or bosses that can 1shot players. Elden hollow II has simple mechanics like Wayrest but the last boss is a bit of a DPS check. If you don't DPS bogdan down fast enough, the floor fills with fire and the adds keep healing the boss. You can do all the mechanics correctly earlier (such as murklight) but if you don't have enough damage, you wont complete. Also in this tier are bosses that dump aggro and can one shot players. Tempest Island would be a two skull dungeon but the last boss hits light armor for 24k and most pugs spend that last fight dead as the mist makes it really hard to revive.

And finally with level 4, this is reserved for dungeons with very tough DPS checks AND mechanics that are difficult to explain to new players that have to be performed precisely or it wipes you every time. Try explaining the 2nd White Gold Tower fight to a group of new players. There are too many ways to make mistakes that cause a wipe and its also a bit of a DPS test on top of that. The mechanics in all of the DLC dungeons are complex enough that you need a few experienced players and TS to walk a new person through it. Also, messing up a mechanic is usually a guaranteed wipe where you can usually recover from a mistake in levels 1-3.


So as I said, i would create 5 tiers if people are more comfortable with 5 tiers but I really don't see the need to because I really don't have enough categories for 5. It would just inflate the numbers and remove the precision of identifying what exactly makes some dungeons more difficult than others.

Obviously there is no way to make this completely objective and some of this will be personal opinion and that is fine. I just want to keep it as systematic as possible. So if you think a dungeon should be rated higher/lower than what i rated it, try to explain the mechanic that makes it that way. If you think there should be 5 levels, then explain what separates each level.

ericprydz82ub17_ESO

I would do as the poster above mentioned and make it a 5 rating system. which essentially puts it in 2 tiers of learning. Tier 1-3 would be for the average player and would have its own dungeon queue for random vet/normal while Tier 4-5 of the rating system would again have its own dungeon queue. That would give players some type of visual stepping stone accomplishment within the system. All that would be needed was an unlocking mechanic hidden in the system itself which would prevent someone from going from and 1 skull dungeon into a 4 or 5 skull dungeon. It would also help players to see the difference between let's say going from one of the 3 skull dungeons and jumping into a 5 skull dungeon for the first time and seeing it is way over their head and queuing for maybe 1-4 rating instead.

Hell, you could even add award bags based on dungeon difficulty through the dungeon finder itself upon completion. One thing WoW did right (I really hate relating ESO to WoW because they are far different MMOs from one another) would be to encourage tanks and healers to queue for dungeons with reward bags given out to the most needed role at the time of queuing.

Jim_Pipp

This would be so useful. The learning curve between pve and vet dungeons is too steep.

I was solo-ing blackheart haven earlier and couldn't beat the final boss mechanics (get turned into a skeleton unable to use abilities). This is quite a simple mechanic but perhaps should earn blackheart a two skull rating.

Anyone know if there is a list of dungeons that can be solo'd?

Vaoh

I love the idea. There truly is a massive difference in difficulty between all of these dungeons. Veteran Ruins of Mazzatun and Veteran Cradle of Shadows should be 5 Skulls though. They are tougher than the IC dungeons, and the final bosses of each of the SotH dungeons are more mechanically complex (and awesome) than any others.

@ZOS_RichLambert This is really worth looking into. I recall gear level being displayed since One Tamriel in our character sheet. Something like this is also helpful for newer players. Definitely along the same lines.

akl77

I agree, clearly some are too easy, some are a pain

JkahrrRadnar

I hope some of the Mods/Devs take a look into this, it's a fantastic idea imo

Asmael

Sounds like a job for @ZOS_Finn to look into

EnemyOfDaState

This is seriously needed in game. I mean normal WGT is harder then Fungal Vet, this game lacks consistency.

lolo_01b16_ESO

I can't tell how many times I wrote in discussions about pugs and dungeon difficulty that there needs to be a way for new players to see that cos is harder than fungal1. So it's nice to see that someone spent some time on a detailed concept of that idea.
Do your rankings include hardmodes or not? From looking at it I'd guess you did include them, but I don't think new players should do hm on their first try of a vet dungeon, so it might be better to rate the non hm fights, which would make eh2 and maybe also coa2 easier than you rated them. Also I'd consider adding a skull to blessed crucible, blackheart and spindle 2. I've expeirenced it many times that the fire wave of bc last boss killed all my team mates at the same time because they didn't manage to avoid it. Blackheart can be very hard if the healer gets transformed and noone in your group has some backup heals and spindle 2 is one of the few real dps checks that can't be avoided by perfect movement / coordination and can't be cheated by letting certain players die on purpose.

User_Name

Fantastic idea!

I particularly like the way the dungeon difficulty is established: Some dungeons require you to go to google or youtube to learn a particular mechanic that will otherwise wipe the group, while others don't - if those dungeons that require googling are clearly marked, it would make things smoother. As we all know, it's not really the difficulty of individual mobs and such that truly determine the difficulty of the dungeon, it's boss mechanics and associated "trial and error" that causes wipes.

Julianos

I liked your idea but people would still choose regardless of difficulty. Inexperienced and players with quest items should be locked out for veteran dungeons. There should be lock for those people without the veteran achievement. So they can form their own group or they can join with their experienced guildies or friends who teach and help them. I always help noobs but its tiresome after sometime. Im tired of explaining stuff to clueless people everyday on 3 diffrent dungeon. No one helped me for anything i googled tactics and crafted items and theorycrafted when i was noob and its not even hard im assure you playing without clue or decent gear is harder than that. And i think cp level is not the issue here i seen lots of 561 people who just doing light attacks or spamming dots on mobs every second i seen people who doesnt know how to dodge roll in veteran content couple times...Tho i completed hardest contents with low level or cp players its all about knowledge and real life skills. Thats why we need some sorting system in dungeon finder or this prejiduce againts low levels will never end. Because i dont have the time or patience teaching everyone i meet in dungeon finder. Occasionally its ok but dungeon finder only finds noobs.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3637398#Comment_3637398

Izaki

Dragonforce sucks.

jahmic

I know this is an older post...but thank you OP. Ratings are definitely needed in game.

I started playing 5 weeks ago and have been running dungeons, but hadn't touched the dlc dungeon content til last week. Currently CP215 (yes, I play too much), and assumed difficulty for vet dungeons scaled up to where all would be levels of difficulty above normal content like ICP.

Accidentally jumped in vet FG2 as Templar healer earlier this week, and healed through the entire dungeon with no troubles...including the aoe on the last boss in a hard mode attempt.

I'd been hesitant to attempt other vet dungeons even after that experience, not knowing what was really doable since the difficulty scaling isn't presented in game. For now...I'll refer to your list and the comments that followed. I really hope they introduce a ranking system, as it'd help newbs like me that are actually dedicated to learning mechanics progress at a measured pace.

ZOS_JohanaB

We've moved this thread to Dungeons, Trials & Arenas

Lukums1

I dunno over all good ideas.

But I just for-see them doing things like this with no added bonus to us "end game" players.

Just more meaningless content to do for no reward.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Lukums1 wrote: »

I dunno over all good ideas.

But I just for-see them doing things like this with no added bonus to us "end game" players.

Just more meaningless content to do for no reward.

Do we need a bonus? This is really aimed at newer players to give them a sense of what they can accomplish.

If they breeze through a 2skull dungeon, they will feel ready to try a 3skull. I just want to prevent new players from getting discouraged by a bad experience accidentally queuing for a dungeon they aren't ready for. That can really sour someone on dugeons and we lose another potential delve buddy each time.

RebornV3x

How bout instead of skulls just put recommend cp xxx next to the dungeons easy and to the point
Veteran Cradle of Shadows recommended CP 500+ Hard Mode recommended CP 561+ see Zos did the first one for u guys

Yolokin_Swagonborn

RebornV3x wrote: »

How bout instead of skulls just put recommend cp xxx next to the dungeons easy and to the point
Veteran Cradle of Shadows recommended CP 500+ Hard Mode recommended CP 561+ see Zos did the first one for u guys

CP really isn't a good measure of whether you can complete a dungeon. You can have Max CP but not have an optimized build and have wipe after wipe to a DPS race mechanic.

Put 4 max CP players that have never done a dungeon in Ruins of Mazatuun and see how well that works. CP doesn't cut it. The whole point of this post is to explain what exactly makes dungeons hard and that is mechanics, not lack of CP.

Curragraigue

I like the idea but would disagree with some of your ratings. Maybe 5 skulls to differentiate some of the mid level dungeons a bit more as well. Otherwise yes I think that would help now that we don't have the clearer distinction of Vet and Normal Dungeons or level restrictions.