Will History Repeat Itself?

Ch4mpTW

So with the abundance of topics made about the upcoming changes to proc-oriented sets no longer being able to crit with U13 (rightfully so), I couldn't help but wonder if history will repeat itself...

As in...

ZOS completely disregarding what the player-base feels about said changes presenting before them, and going along with them. If not making the said changes even more damaging than what they originally were for the community.

An example would be like poisons on the PTS, when they were first introduced. People gave tons of negative feedback about what ZOS has produced before them, and ZOS turned around and made poisons stronger in response to the complaints. Lmao. Could we see this with crits overall? Will ZOS just straight-up remove critical hits, if they're already removing them from proc-sets (as if making proc-sets no longer crit actually solves anything lol)?

And for those wondering, yes. I did quit. I still haven't touched ESO. And won't until U13 goes live on the PTS. For any further information about off-topic stuff like that, just send me a message. That way the thread won't be derailed.

Browiseth

Those who ignore it are condemned to play their favourite song on repeat

Wait what that's not clever at all why am i posting this whyyyyyy

Please make this update good zosimax

Ankael07

Same thing happened with damage shields. People complained about them being stackable. But in the end, ZoS nerfed sorcerers who only use 1 shield.

GrumpyDuckling

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

So with the abundance of topics made about the upcoming changes to proc-oriented sets no longer being able to crit with U13 (rightfully so), I couldn't help but wonder if history will repeat itself...

As in...

ZOS completely disregarding what the player-base feels about said changes presenting before them, and going along with them. If not making the said changes even more damaging than what they originally were for the community.

An example would be like poisons on the PTS, when they were first introduced. People gave tons of negative feedback about what ZOS has produced before them, and ZOS turned around and made poisons stronger in response to the complaints. Lmao. Could we see this with crits overall? Will ZOS just straight-up remove critical hits, if they're already removing them from proc-sets (as if making proc-sets no longer crit actually solves anything lol)?

And for those wondering, yes. I did quit. I still haven't touched ESO. And won't until U13 goes live on the PTS. For any further information about off-topic stuff like that, just send me a message. That way the thread won't be derailed.

"Straight-up remove critical hits," you say? I would love to see ZOS either remove crits altogether or significantly reduce the amount of damage that crits do. Of course they would have to scale back some of the PVE difficulty.

Right now PVE is all about getting high crit because more crits means more damage, and this game overvalues fast damage. I'd also love to be able to play PVP with traits other than Impenetrable on every build - it's just so boring.

Ch4mpTW

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

So with the abundance of topics made about the upcoming changes to proc-oriented sets no longer being able to crit with U13 (rightfully so), I couldn't help but wonder if history will repeat itself...

As in...

ZOS completely disregarding what the player-base feels about said changes presenting before them, and going along with them. If not making the said changes even more damaging than what they originally were for the community.

An example would be like poisons on the PTS, when they were first introduced. People gave tons of negative feedback about what ZOS has produced before them, and ZOS turned around and made poisons stronger in response to the complaints. Lmao. Could we see this with crits overall? Will ZOS just straight-up remove critical hits, if they're already removing them from proc-sets (as if making proc-sets no longer crit actually solves anything lol)?

And for those wondering, yes. I did quit. I still haven't touched ESO. And won't until U13 goes live on the PTS. For any further information about off-topic stuff like that, just send me a message. That way the thread won't be derailed.

"Straight-up remove critical hits," you say? I would love to see ZOS either remove crits altogether or significantly reduce the amount of damage that crits do. Of course they would have to scale back some of the PVE difficulty.

Right now PVE is all about getting high crit because more crits means more damage, and this game overvalues fast damage. I'd also love to be able to play PVP with traits other than Impenetrable on every build - it's just so boring.

You can PVE without having high crit, and you'll just have mediocre damage. You can PVP without using Impenetrable. But, you'll just die fast. Lol.

mtwiggz

I have no faith in the way ZoS develops or manages this game any further. From the massive stamina buff, the complete disregard for our poison feedback, shield nerf that was completely not what anyone asked for, etc. there is no longer hope. At least not in my eyes.

Whomever is making the decisions for the direction of the game does not actually play the game themselves. It's brutally obvious.

PvP has been in disarray for many, many, months now. This proc set change, at least the one presented by @ZOS_RichLambert , will not solve anything. It could quite possibly HURT magicka builds that use proc sets and just bring down the already ridiculously high burst damage of stamina builds by a very small amount. It's another change, or nerf, geared towards a certain aspect of the game that makes another aspect of the game that's already in a bad spot even worse.

Just goes to show that the employees at ZoS are not and do not look at the full picture. Blanket bandaid fixes for everything always instead of addressing the distinct issue head on.

TL:DR

Yes, history will undoubtedly repeat itself with U13.

Rohamad_Ali

I know the reaction from ZOS on this subject will repeat itself ...

Recremen

ZOS listens to feedback, but it turns out that the vast majority of players have zero game dev experience at all, let alone combat balance, and absolutely all of our feedback about balance changes is at best just a sounding board and at worst completely wrong. Just look at the destruction staff ultimate. The vast majority of folks on the forums thought it was weak, though it sealed the deal and that magicka would be dead this patch, but then suddenly once it was live and people bothered to test it even a little bit it was amazing and the new meta. Some players can sometimes give good insight, but overall our combat suggestions on the forums are garbage.

Doctordarkspawn

ZOS hasn't lisened in any worthwhile capacity for a long time.

I doubt they'll do anything about this. Either they'll can the change entirely or keep it, and impliment the changes players suggested, blanketly nerfing it for the sake of nerfing in the process.

starkerealm

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

An example would be like poisons on the PTS, when they were first introduced. People gave tons of negative feedback about what ZOS has produced before them, and ZOS turned around and made poisons stronger in response to the complaints.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the complaints that they were too strong when you made three trait poisons. Which was a bug, and they beefed up the single trait poisons?

Also, worth remembering, sometimes, when your players say one thing, the correct response is to go the other. Especially when you're adding a new mechanic like poisons, where you are deliberately messing with the Meta and trying to make them a viable option to mess with expectations of how you should approach a given situation.

Gilvoth

i think they do listen, it's just that, well, they see it differently then what we do.

starkerealm

mtwiggz wrote: »

PvP has been in disarray for many, many, months now.

The brutal thing about PvP is: nobody plays it.

No, really. I've been there, I've seen Cyrodiil.

Okay, not, "no one." But not enough for their protests to be a serious development consideration.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

The problem with cyrodiil will always be the disgusting champion system and the removal of softcaps. The limits have to go somewhere. If you have huge resource pools affecting damage output and unlimited regen, then skills, sets, crits, everything becomes OP.

I would rather the skills I use and the sets i equip feel powerful. Those are much more interesting than raw stats and regen.

1.5 Cyrodiil controlled stats and regen and your sets made a huge difference, theorycrafting made a huge difference. Everyone was whispering you asking what sets you run. Now its just max armor, max damage, and face tank while using the crapeon system as a crutch for your sustain. That's why you have a burst meta. Because without burst, people are unkillable.

Champeon system is the cause of all of these nerfs. Get regen and resources under control and you wont have to keep nerfing things. Proc sets are a symptom.

Ch4mpTW

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

The problem with cyrodiil will always be the disgusting champion system and the removal of softcaps. The limits have to go somewhere. If you have huge resource pools affecting damage output and unlimited regen, then skills, sets, crits, everything becomes OP.

I would rather the skills I use and the sets i equip feel powerful. Those are much more interesting than raw stats and regen.

1.5 Cyrodiil controlled stats and regen and your sets made a huge difference, theorycrafting made a huge difference. Everyone was whispering you asking what sets you run. Now its just max armor, max damage, and face tank while using the crapeon system as a crutch for your sustain. That's why you have a burst meta. Because without burst, people are unkillable.

Champeon system is the cause of all of these nerfs. Get regen and resources under control and you wont have to keep nerfing things. Proc sets are a symptom.

That's a pretty interesting way of looking at things. I can't say that I've ever actually evaluated PvP from that perspective, but it definitely makes sense. I agree given how you explained it.

GreenSoup2HoT

If Zos removed critical hits from pvp i would stop playing this game immediately. I'm fine with proc sets not being able to crit, it normalizes the damage with them. To be honest it was unfair that the Shadow Mundus did make proc sets better compared to every other mundus (other then thief) making any real impact on them.

Critical damage and chance is such a fundamental part of any mmo and many players like to specialize in it. Night-blades passives more specifically to the very core are very crit based also.

They will not remove crit from pvp im sure of that. Don't worry OP.

Ch4mpTW

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

If Zos removed critical hits from pvp i would stop playing this game immediately. I'm fine with proc sets not being able to crit, it normalizes the damage with them. To be honest it was unfair that the Shadow Mundus did make proc sets better compared to every other mundus (other then thief) making any real impact on them.

Critical damage and chance is such a fundamental part of any mmo and many players like to specialize in it. Night-blades passives more specifically to the very core are very crit based also.

They will not remove crit from pvp im sure of that. Don't worry OP.

I hope you're right. ._.

starkerealm

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

If Zos removed critical hits from pvp i would stop playing this game immediately. I'm fine with proc sets not being able to crit, it normalizes the damage with them. To be honest it was unfair that the Shadow Mundus did make proc sets better compared to every other mundus (other then thief) making any real impact on them.

Critical damage and chance is such a fundamental part of any mmo and many players like to specialize in it. Night-blades passives more specifically to the very core are very crit based also.

They will not remove crit from pvp im sure of that. Don't worry OP.

I hope you're right. ._.

No, he's right. It would be direct sabotage of the Nightblade, and Khajiit. Crits might be limited to weapon attacks and activated abilities, but it would never be outright removed from Cyrodiil. At least not without some serious overhaul to how it worked.

Ch4mpTW

starkerealm wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

If Zos removed critical hits from pvp i would stop playing this game immediately. I'm fine with proc sets not being able to crit, it normalizes the damage with them. To be honest it was unfair that the Shadow Mundus did make proc sets better compared to every other mundus (other then thief) making any real impact on them.

Critical damage and chance is such a fundamental part of any mmo and many players like to specialize in it. Night-blades passives more specifically to the very core are very crit based also.

They will not remove crit from pvp im sure of that. Don't worry OP.

I hope you're right. ._.

No, he's right. It would be direct sabotage of the Nightblade, and Khajiit. Crits might be limited to weapon attacks and activated abilities, but it would never be outright removed from Cyrodiil. At least not without some serious overhaul to how it worked.

I mean, ZOS did straight-up sabatoge MagDK's with their changes in the past. As well as what they've done to MagSorc's. So, I honestly wouldn't put it past them. I only hope you guys are right, comrade. I really do. Because ZOS has been off their rocker lately with some of their over-the-top changes these past few updates.

Sigma957

You will be able to still proc crit hits with your skills just not always relying on proc sets for easy kills. Even with max impen you still can get crits hits on you which is highly annoying

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

The problem with cyrodiil will always be the disgusting champion system and the removal of softcaps. The limits have to go somewhere. If you have huge resource pools affecting damage output and unlimited regen, then skills, sets, crits, everything becomes OP.

I would rather the skills I use and the sets i equip feel powerful. Those are much more interesting than raw stats and regen.

1.5 Cyrodiil controlled stats and regen and your sets made a huge difference, theorycrafting made a huge difference. Everyone was whispering you asking what sets you run. Now its just max armor, max damage, and face tank while using the crapeon system as a crutch for your sustain. That's why you have a burst meta. Because without burst, people are unkillable.

Champeon system is the cause of all of these nerfs. Get regen and resources under control and you wont have to keep nerfing things. Proc sets are a symptom.

That's a pretty interesting way of looking at things. I can't say that I've ever actually evaluated PvP from that perspective, but it definitely makes sense. I agree given how you explained it.

Most games have cooldowns to balance this. ESO is unique in that it does not have cooldowns, (unless you happen to play an evasive dodge roll or streak build). But the reason those skills got cooldowns put on them was because of how much you could reduce your dodge roll cost and how high you could get your regen.

As long as you have the resoruces, you can spam any skill you want. Which is ok if you strictly control regen, but if you don't then any powerful skill becomes "OP" because it can be spammed and people cry for a nerf not realizing that the problem is the lack of limits, not the skill itself.

acw37162

Wizards First Rule is in play here. In case no knee has read a rather awesome series of books by Terry Goodkind;

WIZZARDS FIRST RULE

People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they're afraid it might be true. Peoples' heads are full of knowledge, facts and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.

User_Name

It's quite difficult to gauge the playerbase, these forums are in no way indicative.

It's only a minority that frequent the forums, and those that do mostly do so to complain about something specific to themselves.

And they usually do it in the most hysterical way possible.

If devs were to pay attention to the tears of the month, this game would turn unplayable very fast.

susmitds

Bruh man is back, bruh!!!!!!!!

FloppyTouch

I waiting for update 13 too I stop playing until I see all changes made I'll hold off judgement until the. It's way to early and not enough info right now

f047ys3v3n

PVP has always been mismanaged. Even if it wasn't, it might never be able to be made an enjoyable experience because the Cyr lag issues may just be so deeply entwined with the size of that place and the large group nature of the combat that the primary problem might be unfixable. You will note that Imp City, which doesn't have the lag problem and I frequently enjoy, is broken up six ways from Sunday. I wrote off PVP years ago and every occasional return I have had to level a skill line has reinforced that.

As for PVE, I really feel like it has been going a good direction as of late with tamrielle one. Effectively, all of the content is now playable and grouping works well for quests. It is fun to play with friends. I also enjoy the events we have been having and like that trials, dungeons, etc are now scaled up and hard modes matter. I see a lot of ZOS listening to players here and further making good decisions based on that feedback. Sure I would like things to move faster but do you remember ZOS at the time of champ points and soft cap removal. They could not buy a good decision then. They are doing well now. I am happy with the direction and excited for housing with test dummies.

As for proc sets, whatever, won't work in PVP, will *** off some people in PVE. I'm a mNB, they didn't make me a good one anyway so it is probably good for me that nobody else gets one. There lessening AOE caps though, they must be listening some. I've never seen that before from the PVP crew. Maybe a good sign.

So to answer your question, no I don't think history is repeating, I think they are listening, even the PVP crew who seemed to be incapable of listening to anyone is changing.

sneakymitchell

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

So with the abundance of topics made about the upcoming changes to proc-oriented sets no longer being able to crit with U13 (rightfully so), I couldn't help but wonder if history will repeat itself...

As in...

ZOS completely disregarding what the player-base feels about said changes presenting before them, and going along with them. If not making the said changes even more damaging than what they originally were for the community.

An example would be like poisons on the PTS, when they were first introduced. People gave tons of negative feedback about what ZOS has produced before them, and ZOS turned around and made poisons stronger in response to the complaints. Lmao. Could we see this with crits overall? Will ZOS just straight-up remove critical hits, if they're already removing them from proc-sets (as if making proc-sets no longer crit actually solves anything lol)?

And for those wondering, yes. I did quit. I still haven't touched ESO. And won't until U13 goes live on the PTS. For any further information about off-topic stuff like that, just send me a message. That way the thread won't be derailed.

ZOS will make proc sets hit hard like a crit almost.

SickDuck

The community complains about something. Or not, but ZOS sees an issue looking at its magic data. As a consequence ZOS comes up with idea "A". The forum community goes nuts, threatens to quit unless "A" is reverted or changed to "B"or "C". ZOS kindly ignores forumers as they are being a non-representative minority statistically. They are confident in their solution.

Meanwhile "A" rolls out to PTS and people playing there start to report and complain about it. Since PTS players are nothing like the average ESO Joe nothing happens. Maybe ZOS patches its solution to "A+" to please people or to "A-" if confidence is slightly shaken. Regardless of feedback no time for plan "B" anyway.

Changes go live, ZOS starts to see the effects in their statistics. Game is not perfect yet, but ideas for the next major update are forming...

Rinse and repeat. History goes in circles.

cpuScientist

Recremen wrote: »

ZOS listens to feedback, but it turns out that the vast majority of players have zero game dev experience at all, let alone combat balance, and absolutely all of our feedback about balance changes is at best just a sounding board and at worst completely wrong. Just look at the destruction staff ultimate. The vast majority of folks on the forums thought it was weak, though it sealed the deal and that magicka would be dead this patch, but then suddenly once it was live and people bothered to test it even a little bit it was amazing and the new meta. Some players can sometimes give good insight, but overall our combat suggestions on the forums are garbage.

That ultimate is fantastic because it can't be blocked, dosged. And it still is weaket single target than meteor...

Birdovic

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

The problem with cyrodiil will always be the disgusting champion system and the removal of softcaps. The limits have to go somewhere. If you have huge resource pools affecting damage output and unlimited regen, then skills, sets, crits, everything becomes OP.

I would rather the skills I use and the sets i equip feel powerful. Those are much more interesting than raw stats and regen.

1.5 Cyrodiil controlled stats and regen and your sets made a huge difference, theorycrafting made a huge difference. Everyone was whispering you asking what sets you run. Now its just max armor, max damage, and face tank while using the crapeon system as a crutch for your sustain. That's why you have a burst meta. Because without burst, people are unkillable.

Champeon system is the cause of all of these nerfs. Get regen and resources under control and you wont have to keep nerfing things. Proc sets are a symptom.

And I thought I'm alone with this, I absolutely agree.
What I loved about eso so much was the build diversity in PvP.
Thanks to Softcaps, you could come up with the craziest item sets combo and still make it work, and you weren't that much behind the "BiS" builds.

xXSilverDragonXx

mtwiggz wrote: »

I have no faith in the way ZoS develops or manages this game any further. From the massive stamina buff, the complete disregard for our poison feedback, shield nerf that was completely not what anyone asked for, etc. there is no longer hope. At least not in my eyes.

Whomever is making the decisions for the direction of the game does not actually play the game themselves. It's brutally obvious.

PvP has been in disarray for many, many, months now. This proc set change, at least the one presented by @ZOS_RichLambert , will not solve anything. It could quite possibly HURT magicka builds that use proc sets and just bring down the already ridiculously high burst damage of stamina builds by a very small amount. It's another change, or nerf, geared towards a certain aspect of the game that makes another aspect of the game that's already in a bad spot even worse.

Just goes to show that the employees at ZoS are not and do not look at the full picture. Blanket bandaid fixes for everything always instead of addressing the distinct issue head on.

TL:DR

Yes, history will undoubtedly repeat itself with U13.

This. So much this. While I am personally disappointed about the proc sets getting a nerf in PVE because that is all I do and I only just decided to farm a few after refusing to use them because I knew they would nerf them at some point, I've realized that they don't even know their own game. They don't play it. They don't test it. They don't care to listen unless they think they are about to lose the PVP players. And this game is not only PVP players. It's PVE and PVP.

Ah well, it was kind of fun while it lasted. In the end, lack of them knowing how to run a game (as in doing PROPER balancing in an MMO over the spitball fixes we get) and poor choices that are never tested (as in add a bunch of proc sets that people farm that they then mess up in both PVE and PVP when ONLY PVP were complaining about it) shows they are clueless. Looking at some of the set drops shows they don't really think too much about them. Some of these sets are a joke. Utter trash. Decon worthy only. Barring running some trials for my guild, I'm out. Completely out. It's not from the proc sets. I only have a few. It's from the massive failure of the ZOS team on a very epic level in so many things. Hell, half the time they can't even get maintenance right and one maintenance triggers the need for multiple ones directly after the original over the course of the next day or three. That's outright pathetic. Fanboys can have it. I'm done.

kongkim

People are so drama queens.
Ofc. they listen but it will not change anything now as they need to test it more and see how it go.
People will whine and get mad about ANY changes they will ever make that change a build type and lower the damage. So if they did listen to small amount of the player base here on the forum changes and balance will never be made.

But for the fun of it, lets say that ZoS did what you people say and accepted not to change it. Then we still have the proc set problem. What change could they make were the forum would not get up it the red area and whine and cry again? NOTHING.