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4 Tiers of difficulty and dungeons are still this easy?

  • Junipus
    Junipus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Imma just gonna sit over here

    giphy.gif
    The Legendary Nothing
  • ragespell
    ragespell
    ✭✭✭
    Vangy wrote: »
    ragespell wrote: »
    pretzl wrote: »
    pretzl wrote: »
    I was hoping this 4-tier system would make dungeons atleast alittle harder for the end-game (or close) community, but they're still soloable/duoable with a sub-par setup...
    It's fairly easy to duo any II dungeon on veteran with Hard Mode for all achievments. Are there any plans to actually increase the difficulty considering we now have 4 possible tiers to do them on @ZOS_Finn ?

    The reasoning for not increasing the difficulty since the birth of this game has always been to provide the more leant-back casual portion of the userbase with content they can complete aswell, but do they really need 4 possible tiers of difficulty? I'd think atleast one of them should enforce the use of higher-tier setups and promote skill, no?

    And before people inevitably start QQing about elitism and/or making things too hard etc. you'd still have 3 other difficulties to get your keys on. Dungeons wouldn't even need to be that much harder, just difficult enough to make it mandatory to have all roles in the trinity present whilst still keeping it inside a somewhat casual nature. People shouldn't be able to solo their way to 2 keys in a single run...

    We should not want it to be as difficult as trials..

    Therr should be a difference..

    That's not at all what I'm asking for. I completely understand the separation between dungeons and trials. Trials are for the end-game userbase, not casuals. Dungeons are for casuals. What I'm asking for is, given there really are 4 tiers of difficulty (2 and 2 separated by different quests) for most dungeons, why isn't one of those tiers just alittle harder so as to reward the end-game community just alittle more? I understand why some people are voicing angry opinions, but christ, no need for insults...
    Why should ZOS reward 1% of their userbase? Because we're the ones who play every single day. We're the ones who spend a *** of money in the crown store because we love the game. Because we're ultimately the ones who go on PTS to test things, make sure things are alright. Why shouldn't we be rewarded?

    I just can't wrap my head around how some people think it's okay that you can solo your way to 2 gold keys in a single dungeon. How you can effectively and relatively easily solo your way to upto 4 keys every day in 1T.

    Such a difficulty spike would possibly mean a rework of most bossfights, but in all honesty a bigger spike in health would actually force you to pay attention to mechanics.
    I did vet Vaults of Madness last night with a friend of mine. I had never seen a single mechanic in there before because honestly you could just stack and whack through them. I've never had so much fun before, because I was actually learning something about these dungeons. Granted, that fun quickly goes away after a run or two, but I still shouldn't be able to stack and whack through mechanics such as Bogdan's adds or Praxin's adds (yes, you can still do that). I've even gone back and done the exact same things with 300 CP and purple gear...

    This isn't a bragpost. Simply a post aiming to bring light to some of the glaring issues in all but DLC dungeons. People won't agree, people won't like that I'm part of that 1% of the userbase. It's as simple as that.

    Honestly, most of the time casuals are worse towards "elitists" than "elitists" are to them. It's a disgrace.

    Actually, people who plays all day, are not the one who pays the bill, because are simply unemployed. And in most cases: unemployed equals no money.

    Are the casuals that works and have a disposable income to keep the servers up for you elitist

    Sorry to burst ur bubble bud. Im an engineer and I play all day long on Saturday and ive completed all content ranging from vMA and vDSA and vMOL. So no. You arent paying any of my ESO bills. Being good at the game dosent equate to living in ur moms basement playing ESO all day everyday. Get outta here with that stereotype nonsense.

    As an engineer, you should have studied statistics (don't know if it's the right name in english).
    And maybe you are not that good playing only on saturday. Not as you think you are.
    Or maybe not against a fifthteen who plays all day long everyday and has no money.
  • Asardes
    Asardes
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Playing a lot does not equate playing well. I've met quite a few max CP players, who by definition have played a lot, who played badly nevertheless. Running laps and grinding the same mobs in IC sewers or Wrothgar public dungeons using mostly the same 2-3 skill rotation (including buffs) or even the same rubber-band-able AoE skill doesn't actually develop the capabilities to play endgame solo, 4 man and 12 man content, where you actually have to take into account mechanics and , for the latter 2, what the other players are doing. Some will just end up as max CP players who have yet to L2P. I've met quite a few of those in dungeons and it ain't pretty, as one has high expectations of them, like running VICP in less than 30 minutes. When instead you get stuck at Ibomez because nobody wants to trigger the damned flesh grenades, those are totally shattered. Saddest thing is that they actually missed a huge chunk of exquisite content, stuck in that 1% of the game that maximizes XP gain.

    P.S. I'm an engineer too, I play quite a lot, but haven't actually grinded.
    Beta tester since February 2014, playing ESO-TU since October 2015
    vMA | vDSA | vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL | vAS+1
    EU PC CP 1000+
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    Veronique Nicole | 50 Breton Templar | DC AR 18 |
    Sabina Flavia Cosades | 50 Imperial Warden | EP AR 18 |
    Ervesa Neloren | 50 Dark Elf Dragonknight | EP AR 18 |
    Fendar Khodwin | 50 Redguard Sorcerer | DC AR 18 |
    Surilanwe of Lillandril | 50 High Elf Nightblade | AD AR 15 |
    Joleen the Swift | 50 Redguard Templar | DC AR 7 |

    Draynor Telvanni | 50 Dark Elf Warden | EP AR 4 |
    Tharkul gro-Shug | 50 Orc Dragonknight | DC AR 4 |
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    Milariel | 50 Wood Elf Warden | AD AR 3 |
    Nazura-la the Bonedancer | 5 Necromancer | AD AR 0 |
    Claudius Tharn | 5 Necromancer | DC AR 0 |
    Scheei-Jul | 5 Necromancer | EP AR 0 |
  • Attackopsn
    Attackopsn
    ✭✭✭✭
    Vangy wrote: »
    Vangy wrote: »
    pretzl wrote: »
    Vangy wrote: »
    Vangy wrote: »
    I think the irrational fear of elitism is getting out of hand here lol.

    No one wants to take anything away from casuals. People are just asking for a version of non-DLC dungeons that are not a snooze fest. Compare normal and veteran dungeons in one tamriel. From what I understand, doing a dungeon on normal and veteran has almost no difference with respect to loot. Any non-accessory gear can be upgraded to gold and there would be no difference to how you got said piece of loot; from veteran or from normal.

    You could for instance, add an extra layer of difficulty that drops gold accessories that are in the difficulty range of the hist DLC dungeons. You will lose nothing but the shot at gold accessories which 99% of the time casuals had no way of acquiring anyway. (you arent going to get gold VO drops for ex, by doing normal trials). This is just adding stuff to the game. And if you are a casual, you still have full access to EZ mode dungeons for a shot at purple accessories.

    Dont see how this is elitist. Elitist would be like, oh make the current vet dungeons 5 times harder and make normals drop cp150 gear!!!. But no. We arent asking for this. You can do ur normals or the current vet ones for blue and purple CP160 loot while the new layer will just give a shot at gold accessories. Kind of like how the vet trials work.

    So both casuals and hardcore gamers can all have their fun in their comfort zone and get appropriately rewarded based on their skill level. Ignoring the needs one group of gamers just because they make up the minority (ie CP 500+ players who are very skilled and are getting bored with vet content) is akin to share-holder oppression lol. ESO is already very casual friendly in terms of people having access to 99% of the best loot by doing face-roll content. Besides, look at the new overland sets being opened up to everyone. Anyone can get these with close to 0 effort. If anything, ESO is becoming carebear land.... nothing to do with elitism. People good at the game just want something to do that isnt a snore-fest (for them).

    It's not irrational. It's very rational, considering now we have most of the dev cycle under Wrobel and this year geared toward difficult content. This game is not like other games, nobody cares about the gear. The gear will only be a real factor next update with all the sets. What we want, is content we can do without dedicating two hours to it. Without running the latest greatest meta build.

    You are making that impossible. And you will kill this game by hedging out whoever dislikes what is being developed, by sheer virtue of "There's more content for me, than for you."

    You want this game, you'll have to take it from my cold dead hands.

    Like the older dungeons have a different story for normal and vet. What we are proposing is add one more difficulty to it with the same story (aka content) as the vet one. So you are effectively missing 0% of the game. Just slap 40% more HP to boss and maybe 25% more damage to stuff. Add shot at gold jewellery. Same story. Same dialogue. Same dungeon.

    So doing a vet version or a hm vet version with the same story but with mobs hitting harder and more hp is taking away content that you want to do?? Explain pls. What exactly would I be prying out of your cold dead hands. Or did u even read what I wrote.

    Before, I was in favor of this. Then I slept on it for a few days.

    You realize this isn't gonna end, right? You realize this constant asking for new difficulty modes will never end with this? It''ll keep going, and going. It does not matter what you propose -now-, once you get traction with this we'll get the second wave come out of the woodwork demanding the entire game be changed to suit the difficulty crowd.

    Domino's, M'boy. You have allready monopolized the dev cycle. It wont be that hard to persuade them to focus exclusively on an audience that will seem bigger than it actually is.

    Edit: You*
    How have "we" monopolized the dev cycle? Stop being delusional. Nobody WANTS to make things too difficult. I want to take a small piece of content that many people enjoy and make it more challenging for those who are interested. It wouldn't take anything away from casuals. I don't see what the big deal is.
    pretzl wrote: »
    Take off your armor. Problem solved. Smh... Elitist nonsense.

    Or another idea... That tryhard min/max build you worked so hard for to make the game easier... They should just nerf it. Then maybe you would find the difficulty more entertaining. I'm serious. No one forces you people to allocate you cp. Play without them.

    Whatever you're on, I want some. But at the same time I don't.
    That gear I worked so hard on to make the game easier? Wtf is that? I make gear and CP allocations to what's BiS to make myself better, not make the game easier.
    Noone forces casuals to be *** at the game. Noone forces end-game players to be good at the game. We do these things because it's our own way of enjoying it.

    Now get the *** out of my thread if you're gonna post stupid *** like that. Kthx.

    'Better'... Right. It's delusional to think increasing stats makes you somehow more 'skilled'. And that stuff I'm on, it's called logic. Try some. Then maybe you wouldn't be trying to *** up this game for personal self worth.

    Come back and complain after you beat everything with no cp and no armor. The entire progression system is a very long difficulty slider, and it goes from challenging to easy mode. You can start by playing with different skills, and dedicate your style to a specific niche instead of using every flavor of the month exploit you can find and then complaining that it's too easy.

    Also, the whole 'casuals' attitude being thrown around is just a huge circle jerk. Might as well be calling them noobs or scrubs. Is this game the highlight of your life? Kinda pathetic. Enjoy the one place you feel entitled to talk down to people through the cover of anonymity.

    The whole "elitist" attitude being thrown around is just a huge circle jerk. You think it's completely fine to call people elitist ***, but as soon as the "casual" word is thrown around alittle you get sand in your ***? That's certainly not logic you're on.
    Why should I remove my armor? It's a part of the game. Removing it only creates artificial difficulty
    How about instead of me removing ***, you take the time to grind some CPs and follow a meta build. I bet it'd be too much to handle for your little casual mindset.

    Every raid and dungeon released past Craglorn has been for the people who want insane difficulty.

    You have monopolized the dev cycle whether you like it or not.

    ? Have u even TRIED doing a normal raid? U can grab a random group of CP 200+ players and smash thru nAA or nSO. Ofcourse u just need semi-decent players and DPS that can pull at least 15k. But that isnt whats considered insane difficulty... And u get all loot short of gold accessories in normal mode.... So where exactly is the monopoly?

    That wasn't the case until extremely recently.

    Nice. Try. By the way. Try adressing the new points I edited in. I'd love to see how you explain a veteran dungeon having vet raid mechanics equivilent to the hardest raid in the game.

    Try putting your points into;

    I dont want more difficulty layers because;

    #1 Reason one
    #2 Reason two

    etc.

    Im having serious trouble trying to get what it is you are trying to say. Apologies if my reading comprehension is bad but please humor me. Tell me exactly why it is like u feel u are missing out on content and why harder difficulties affect your gameplay because normal mode has the same story and 99% same loot.

    I'll do it if you tell me in what reasonable universe a dungeon boss has raid mechanics.

    Theyre not comparable though.
    When vMoL was released, it took a while even for top guilds to beat it.
    When SoTh was released, I went in one of the dungeons and finished it at the first evening.

    They are compareable though.

    Yes, people beat shadows of the hist dungeons when they first released. So? Some people have not even beaten the hardmode yet, and Velindreth -still- uses mechanics that have been used in raids.

    In what universe is this acceptable? Why do dungeons need to be as hard as raids? Hardcore pandering and monopolizing the dev cycle.

    Months of effort are comparable to a couple of hours of yolo gameplay? I strongly disagree.
    Then again, there's a normal mdoe for those people. If you think youre too cool for normal modes, its not game's problem. The game even provides you the same loot for both versions.

    This
    ign: ATTACKO
    PS4 NA
    First NA Completion of VMoL Hard Mode (all NA servers)
    vma:592,363 vdsa:46,792 vhrc:152,866 vaa:142,703 vso:163,432 vmol:154797
    Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
    GM of Majeeka
  • Attackopsn
    Attackopsn
    ✭✭✭✭
    Destruent wrote: »
    Vangy wrote: »
    Vangy wrote: »
    pretzl wrote: »
    Vangy wrote: »
    Vangy wrote: »
    I think the irrational fear of elitism is getting out of hand here lol.

    No one wants to take anything away from casuals. People are just asking for a version of non-DLC dungeons that are not a snooze fest. Compare normal and veteran dungeons in one tamriel. From what I understand, doing a dungeon on normal and veteran has almost no difference with respect to loot. Any non-accessory gear can be upgraded to gold and there would be no difference to how you got said piece of loot; from veteran or from normal.

    You could for instance, add an extra layer of difficulty that drops gold accessories that are in the difficulty range of the hist DLC dungeons. You will lose nothing but the shot at gold accessories which 99% of the time casuals had no way of acquiring anyway. (you arent going to get gold VO drops for ex, by doing normal trials). This is just adding stuff to the game. And if you are a casual, you still have full access to EZ mode dungeons for a shot at purple accessories.

    Dont see how this is elitist. Elitist would be like, oh make the current vet dungeons 5 times harder and make normals drop cp150 gear!!!. But no. We arent asking for this. You can do ur normals or the current vet ones for blue and purple CP160 loot while the new layer will just give a shot at gold accessories. Kind of like how the vet trials work.

    So both casuals and hardcore gamers can all have their fun in their comfort zone and get appropriately rewarded based on their skill level. Ignoring the needs one group of gamers just because they make up the minority (ie CP 500+ players who are very skilled and are getting bored with vet content) is akin to share-holder oppression lol. ESO is already very casual friendly in terms of people having access to 99% of the best loot by doing face-roll content. Besides, look at the new overland sets being opened up to everyone. Anyone can get these with close to 0 effort. If anything, ESO is becoming carebear land.... nothing to do with elitism. People good at the game just want something to do that isnt a snore-fest (for them).

    It's not irrational. It's very rational, considering now we have most of the dev cycle under Wrobel and this year geared toward difficult content. This game is not like other games, nobody cares about the gear. The gear will only be a real factor next update with all the sets. What we want, is content we can do without dedicating two hours to it. Without running the latest greatest meta build.

    You are making that impossible. And you will kill this game by hedging out whoever dislikes what is being developed, by sheer virtue of "There's more content for me, than for you."

    You want this game, you'll have to take it from my cold dead hands.

    Like the older dungeons have a different story for normal and vet. What we are proposing is add one more difficulty to it with the same story (aka content) as the vet one. So you are effectively missing 0% of the game. Just slap 40% more HP to boss and maybe 25% more damage to stuff. Add shot at gold jewellery. Same story. Same dialogue. Same dungeon.

    So doing a vet version or a hm vet version with the same story but with mobs hitting harder and more hp is taking away content that you want to do?? Explain pls. What exactly would I be prying out of your cold dead hands. Or did u even read what I wrote.

    Before, I was in favor of this. Then I slept on it for a few days.

    You realize this isn't gonna end, right? You realize this constant asking for new difficulty modes will never end with this? It''ll keep going, and going. It does not matter what you propose -now-, once you get traction with this we'll get the second wave come out of the woodwork demanding the entire game be changed to suit the difficulty crowd.

    Domino's, M'boy. You have allready monopolized the dev cycle. It wont be that hard to persuade them to focus exclusively on an audience that will seem bigger than it actually is.

    Edit: You*
    How have "we" monopolized the dev cycle? Stop being delusional. Nobody WANTS to make things too difficult. I want to take a small piece of content that many people enjoy and make it more challenging for those who are interested. It wouldn't take anything away from casuals. I don't see what the big deal is.
    pretzl wrote: »
    Take off your armor. Problem solved. Smh... Elitist nonsense.

    Or another idea... That tryhard min/max build you worked so hard for to make the game easier... They should just nerf it. Then maybe you would find the difficulty more entertaining. I'm serious. No one forces you people to allocate you cp. Play without them.

    Whatever you're on, I want some. But at the same time I don't.
    That gear I worked so hard on to make the game easier? Wtf is that? I make gear and CP allocations to what's BiS to make myself better, not make the game easier.
    Noone forces casuals to be *** at the game. Noone forces end-game players to be good at the game. We do these things because it's our own way of enjoying it.

    Now get the *** out of my thread if you're gonna post stupid *** like that. Kthx.

    'Better'... Right. It's delusional to think increasing stats makes you somehow more 'skilled'. And that stuff I'm on, it's called logic. Try some. Then maybe you wouldn't be trying to *** up this game for personal self worth.

    Come back and complain after you beat everything with no cp and no armor. The entire progression system is a very long difficulty slider, and it goes from challenging to easy mode. You can start by playing with different skills, and dedicate your style to a specific niche instead of using every flavor of the month exploit you can find and then complaining that it's too easy.

    Also, the whole 'casuals' attitude being thrown around is just a huge circle jerk. Might as well be calling them noobs or scrubs. Is this game the highlight of your life? Kinda pathetic. Enjoy the one place you feel entitled to talk down to people through the cover of anonymity.

    The whole "elitist" attitude being thrown around is just a huge circle jerk. You think it's completely fine to call people elitist ***, but as soon as the "casual" word is thrown around alittle you get sand in your ***? That's certainly not logic you're on.
    Why should I remove my armor? It's a part of the game. Removing it only creates artificial difficulty
    How about instead of me removing ***, you take the time to grind some CPs and follow a meta build. I bet it'd be too much to handle for your little casual mindset.

    Every raid and dungeon released past Craglorn has been for the people who want insane difficulty.

    You have monopolized the dev cycle whether you like it or not.

    ? Have u even TRIED doing a normal raid? U can grab a random group of CP 200+ players and smash thru nAA or nSO. Ofcourse u just need semi-decent players and DPS that can pull at least 15k. But that isnt whats considered insane difficulty... And u get all loot short of gold accessories in normal mode.... So where exactly is the monopoly?

    That wasn't the case until extremely recently.

    Nice. Try. By the way. Try adressing the new points I edited in. I'd love to see how you explain a veteran dungeon having vet raid mechanics equivilent to the hardest raid in the game.

    Try putting your points into;

    I dont want more difficulty layers because;

    #1 Reason one
    #2 Reason two

    etc.

    Im having serious trouble trying to get what it is you are trying to say. Apologies if my reading comprehension is bad but please humor me. Tell me exactly why it is like u feel u are missing out on content and why harder difficulties affect your gameplay because normal mode has the same story and 99% same loot.

    I'll do it if you tell me in what reasonable universe a dungeon boss has raid mechanics.

    Theyre not comparable though.
    When vMoL was released, it took a while even for top guilds to beat it.
    When SoTh was released, I went in one of the dungeons and finished it at the first evening.

    They are compareable though.

    Yes, people beat shadows of the hist dungeons when they first released. So? Some people have not even beaten the hardmode yet, and Velindreth -still- uses mechanics that have been used in raids.

    In what universe is this acceptable? Why do dungeons need to be as hard as raids? Hardcore pandering and monopolizing the dev cycle.

    Cmon...dungeons which were beaten on PTS within some hours are not comparable to a raid, which took months to finish for the best guilds.

    C'mon...admit you want everyone who does not enjoy difficulty to die.

    You are actually an idiot.
    Edited by Attackopsn on October 4, 2016 3:25PM
    ign: ATTACKO
    PS4 NA
    First NA Completion of VMoL Hard Mode (all NA servers)
    vma:592,363 vdsa:46,792 vhrc:152,866 vaa:142,703 vso:163,432 vmol:154797
    Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
    GM of Majeeka
  • Attackopsn
    Attackopsn
    ✭✭✭✭
    Vangy wrote: »
    Vangy wrote: »
    pretzl wrote: »
    Vangy wrote: »
    Vangy wrote: »
    I think the irrational fear of elitism is getting out of hand here lol.

    No one wants to take anything away from casuals. People are just asking for a version of non-DLC dungeons that are not a snooze fest. Compare normal and veteran dungeons in one tamriel. From what I understand, doing a dungeon on normal and veteran has almost no difference with respect to loot. Any non-accessory gear can be upgraded to gold and there would be no difference to how you got said piece of loot; from veteran or from normal.

    You could for instance, add an extra layer of difficulty that drops gold accessories that are in the difficulty range of the hist DLC dungeons. You will lose nothing but the shot at gold accessories which 99% of the time casuals had no way of acquiring anyway. (you arent going to get gold VO drops for ex, by doing normal trials). This is just adding stuff to the game. And if you are a casual, you still have full access to EZ mode dungeons for a shot at purple accessories.

    Dont see how this is elitist. Elitist would be like, oh make the current vet dungeons 5 times harder and make normals drop cp150 gear!!!. But no. We arent asking for this. You can do ur normals or the current vet ones for blue and purple CP160 loot while the new layer will just give a shot at gold accessories. Kind of like how the vet trials work.

    So both casuals and hardcore gamers can all have their fun in their comfort zone and get appropriately rewarded based on their skill level. Ignoring the needs one group of gamers just because they make up the minority (ie CP 500+ players who are very skilled and are getting bored with vet content) is akin to share-holder oppression lol. ESO is already very casual friendly in terms of people having access to 99% of the best loot by doing face-roll content. Besides, look at the new overland sets being opened up to everyone. Anyone can get these with close to 0 effort. If anything, ESO is becoming carebear land.... nothing to do with elitism. People good at the game just want something to do that isnt a snore-fest (for them).

    It's not irrational. It's very rational, considering now we have most of the dev cycle under Wrobel and this year geared toward difficult content. This game is not like other games, nobody cares about the gear. The gear will only be a real factor next update with all the sets. What we want, is content we can do without dedicating two hours to it. Without running the latest greatest meta build.

    You are making that impossible. And you will kill this game by hedging out whoever dislikes what is being developed, by sheer virtue of "There's more content for me, than for you."

    You want this game, you'll have to take it from my cold dead hands.

    Like the older dungeons have a different story for normal and vet. What we are proposing is add one more difficulty to it with the same story (aka content) as the vet one. So you are effectively missing 0% of the game. Just slap 40% more HP to boss and maybe 25% more damage to stuff. Add shot at gold jewellery. Same story. Same dialogue. Same dungeon.

    So doing a vet version or a hm vet version with the same story but with mobs hitting harder and more hp is taking away content that you want to do?? Explain pls. What exactly would I be prying out of your cold dead hands. Or did u even read what I wrote.

    Before, I was in favor of this. Then I slept on it for a few days.

    You realize this isn't gonna end, right? You realize this constant asking for new difficulty modes will never end with this? It''ll keep going, and going. It does not matter what you propose -now-, once you get traction with this we'll get the second wave come out of the woodwork demanding the entire game be changed to suit the difficulty crowd.

    Domino's, M'boy. You have allready monopolized the dev cycle. It wont be that hard to persuade them to focus exclusively on an audience that will seem bigger than it actually is.

    Edit: You*
    How have "we" monopolized the dev cycle? Stop being delusional. Nobody WANTS to make things too difficult. I want to take a small piece of content that many people enjoy and make it more challenging for those who are interested. It wouldn't take anything away from casuals. I don't see what the big deal is.
    pretzl wrote: »
    Take off your armor. Problem solved. Smh... Elitist nonsense.

    Or another idea... That tryhard min/max build you worked so hard for to make the game easier... They should just nerf it. Then maybe you would find the difficulty more entertaining. I'm serious. No one forces you people to allocate you cp. Play without them.

    Whatever you're on, I want some. But at the same time I don't.
    That gear I worked so hard on to make the game easier? Wtf is that? I make gear and CP allocations to what's BiS to make myself better, not make the game easier.
    Noone forces casuals to be *** at the game. Noone forces end-game players to be good at the game. We do these things because it's our own way of enjoying it.

    Now get the *** out of my thread if you're gonna post stupid *** like that. Kthx.

    'Better'... Right. It's delusional to think increasing stats makes you somehow more 'skilled'. And that stuff I'm on, it's called logic. Try some. Then maybe you wouldn't be trying to *** up this game for personal self worth.

    Come back and complain after you beat everything with no cp and no armor. The entire progression system is a very long difficulty slider, and it goes from challenging to easy mode. You can start by playing with different skills, and dedicate your style to a specific niche instead of using every flavor of the month exploit you can find and then complaining that it's too easy.

    Also, the whole 'casuals' attitude being thrown around is just a huge circle jerk. Might as well be calling them noobs or scrubs. Is this game the highlight of your life? Kinda pathetic. Enjoy the one place you feel entitled to talk down to people through the cover of anonymity.

    The whole "elitist" attitude being thrown around is just a huge circle jerk. You think it's completely fine to call people elitist ***, but as soon as the "casual" word is thrown around alittle you get sand in your ***? That's certainly not logic you're on.
    Why should I remove my armor? It's a part of the game. Removing it only creates artificial difficulty
    How about instead of me removing ***, you take the time to grind some CPs and follow a meta build. I bet it'd be too much to handle for your little casual mindset.

    Every raid and dungeon released past Craglorn has been for the people who want insane difficulty.

    You have monopolized the dev cycle whether you like it or not.

    ? Have u even TRIED doing a normal raid? U can grab a random group of CP 200+ players and smash thru nAA or nSO. Ofcourse u just need semi-decent players and DPS that can pull at least 15k. But that isnt whats considered insane difficulty... And u get all loot short of gold accessories in normal mode.... So where exactly is the monopoly?

    That wasn't the case until extremely recently.

    Nice. Try. By the way. Try adressing the new points I edited in. I'd love to see how you explain a veteran dungeon having vet raid mechanics equivilent to the hardest raid in the game.

    Try putting your points into;

    I dont want more difficulty layers because;

    #1 Reason one
    #2 Reason two

    etc.

    Im having serious trouble trying to get what it is you are trying to say. Apologies if my reading comprehension is bad but please humor me. Tell me exactly why it is like u feel u are missing out on content and why harder difficulties affect your gameplay because normal mode has the same story and 99% same loot.

    I'll do it if you tell me in what reasonable universe a dungeon boss has raid mechanics.

    Theyre not comparable though.
    When vMoL was released, it took a while even for top guilds to beat it.
    When SoTh was released, I went in one of the dungeons and finished it at the first evening.

    They are compareable though.

    Yes, people beat shadows of the hist dungeons when they first released. So? Some people have not even beaten the hardmode yet, and Velindreth -still- uses mechanics that have been used in raids.

    In what universe is this acceptable? Why do dungeons need to be as hard as raids? Hardcore pandering and monopolizing the dev cycle.

    Months of effort are comparable to a couple of hours of yolo gameplay? I strongly disagree.
    Then again, there's a normal mdoe for those people. If you think youre too cool for normal modes, its not game's problem. The game even provides you the same loot for both versions.

    The games problem is the design is similar to raids. Everything is raids. Maelstrom is a 1 player raid. Velindreth is a raidboss. EVERYTHING IS RAIDS.

    Wake up, quit trying to make this game into 24/7 raids.

    You are the loud angry casual that this discussion doesn't need. This game has plenty of content for you, you have over 15 zones of quests and the ability to turn every damn dungeon you constantly *** about to normal. Seriously everything you say is more incentivized by some motivation you have to attack people you perceive as elitists than constructively discussing the topic. You are literally a cancer in this post. Nobody minds logical dissent, however nothing you are saying is remotely constructive and is only directed at pushing some kind of casual almost *** like agenda.
    ign: ATTACKO
    PS4 NA
    First NA Completion of VMoL Hard Mode (all NA servers)
    vma:592,363 vdsa:46,792 vhrc:152,866 vaa:142,703 vso:163,432 vmol:154797
    Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
    GM of Majeeka
  • Doctordarkspawn
    Doctordarkspawn
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    Attackopsn wrote: »
    Vangy wrote: »
    Vangy wrote: »
    pretzl wrote: »
    Vangy wrote: »
    Vangy wrote: »
    I think the irrational fear of elitism is getting out of hand here lol.

    No one wants to take anything away from casuals. People are just asking for a version of non-DLC dungeons that are not a snooze fest. Compare normal and veteran dungeons in one tamriel. From what I understand, doing a dungeon on normal and veteran has almost no difference with respect to loot. Any non-accessory gear can be upgraded to gold and there would be no difference to how you got said piece of loot; from veteran or from normal.

    You could for instance, add an extra layer of difficulty that drops gold accessories that are in the difficulty range of the hist DLC dungeons. You will lose nothing but the shot at gold accessories which 99% of the time casuals had no way of acquiring anyway. (you arent going to get gold VO drops for ex, by doing normal trials). This is just adding stuff to the game. And if you are a casual, you still have full access to EZ mode dungeons for a shot at purple accessories.

    Dont see how this is elitist. Elitist would be like, oh make the current vet dungeons 5 times harder and make normals drop cp150 gear!!!. But no. We arent asking for this. You can do ur normals or the current vet ones for blue and purple CP160 loot while the new layer will just give a shot at gold accessories. Kind of like how the vet trials work.

    So both casuals and hardcore gamers can all have their fun in their comfort zone and get appropriately rewarded based on their skill level. Ignoring the needs one group of gamers just because they make up the minority (ie CP 500+ players who are very skilled and are getting bored with vet content) is akin to share-holder oppression lol. ESO is already very casual friendly in terms of people having access to 99% of the best loot by doing face-roll content. Besides, look at the new overland sets being opened up to everyone. Anyone can get these with close to 0 effort. If anything, ESO is becoming carebear land.... nothing to do with elitism. People good at the game just want something to do that isnt a snore-fest (for them).

    It's not irrational. It's very rational, considering now we have most of the dev cycle under Wrobel and this year geared toward difficult content. This game is not like other games, nobody cares about the gear. The gear will only be a real factor next update with all the sets. What we want, is content we can do without dedicating two hours to it. Without running the latest greatest meta build.

    You are making that impossible. And you will kill this game by hedging out whoever dislikes what is being developed, by sheer virtue of "There's more content for me, than for you."

    You want this game, you'll have to take it from my cold dead hands.

    Like the older dungeons have a different story for normal and vet. What we are proposing is add one more difficulty to it with the same story (aka content) as the vet one. So you are effectively missing 0% of the game. Just slap 40% more HP to boss and maybe 25% more damage to stuff. Add shot at gold jewellery. Same story. Same dialogue. Same dungeon.

    So doing a vet version or a hm vet version with the same story but with mobs hitting harder and more hp is taking away content that you want to do?? Explain pls. What exactly would I be prying out of your cold dead hands. Or did u even read what I wrote.

    Before, I was in favor of this. Then I slept on it for a few days.

    You realize this isn't gonna end, right? You realize this constant asking for new difficulty modes will never end with this? It''ll keep going, and going. It does not matter what you propose -now-, once you get traction with this we'll get the second wave come out of the woodwork demanding the entire game be changed to suit the difficulty crowd.

    Domino's, M'boy. You have allready monopolized the dev cycle. It wont be that hard to persuade them to focus exclusively on an audience that will seem bigger than it actually is.

    Edit: You*
    How have "we" monopolized the dev cycle? Stop being delusional. Nobody WANTS to make things too difficult. I want to take a small piece of content that many people enjoy and make it more challenging for those who are interested. It wouldn't take anything away from casuals. I don't see what the big deal is.
    pretzl wrote: »
    Take off your armor. Problem solved. Smh... Elitist nonsense.

    Or another idea... That tryhard min/max build you worked so hard for to make the game easier... They should just nerf it. Then maybe you would find the difficulty more entertaining. I'm serious. No one forces you people to allocate you cp. Play without them.

    Whatever you're on, I want some. But at the same time I don't.
    That gear I worked so hard on to make the game easier? Wtf is that? I make gear and CP allocations to what's BiS to make myself better, not make the game easier.
    Noone forces casuals to be *** at the game. Noone forces end-game players to be good at the game. We do these things because it's our own way of enjoying it.

    Now get the *** out of my thread if you're gonna post stupid *** like that. Kthx.

    'Better'... Right. It's delusional to think increasing stats makes you somehow more 'skilled'. And that stuff I'm on, it's called logic. Try some. Then maybe you wouldn't be trying to *** up this game for personal self worth.

    Come back and complain after you beat everything with no cp and no armor. The entire progression system is a very long difficulty slider, and it goes from challenging to easy mode. You can start by playing with different skills, and dedicate your style to a specific niche instead of using every flavor of the month exploit you can find and then complaining that it's too easy.

    Also, the whole 'casuals' attitude being thrown around is just a huge circle jerk. Might as well be calling them noobs or scrubs. Is this game the highlight of your life? Kinda pathetic. Enjoy the one place you feel entitled to talk down to people through the cover of anonymity.

    The whole "elitist" attitude being thrown around is just a huge circle jerk. You think it's completely fine to call people elitist ***, but as soon as the "casual" word is thrown around alittle you get sand in your ***? That's certainly not logic you're on.
    Why should I remove my armor? It's a part of the game. Removing it only creates artificial difficulty
    How about instead of me removing ***, you take the time to grind some CPs and follow a meta build. I bet it'd be too much to handle for your little casual mindset.

    Every raid and dungeon released past Craglorn has been for the people who want insane difficulty.

    You have monopolized the dev cycle whether you like it or not.

    ? Have u even TRIED doing a normal raid? U can grab a random group of CP 200+ players and smash thru nAA or nSO. Ofcourse u just need semi-decent players and DPS that can pull at least 15k. But that isnt whats considered insane difficulty... And u get all loot short of gold accessories in normal mode.... So where exactly is the monopoly?

    That wasn't the case until extremely recently.

    Nice. Try. By the way. Try adressing the new points I edited in. I'd love to see how you explain a veteran dungeon having vet raid mechanics equivilent to the hardest raid in the game.

    Try putting your points into;

    I dont want more difficulty layers because;

    #1 Reason one
    #2 Reason two

    etc.

    Im having serious trouble trying to get what it is you are trying to say. Apologies if my reading comprehension is bad but please humor me. Tell me exactly why it is like u feel u are missing out on content and why harder difficulties affect your gameplay because normal mode has the same story and 99% same loot.

    I'll do it if you tell me in what reasonable universe a dungeon boss has raid mechanics.

    Theyre not comparable though.
    When vMoL was released, it took a while even for top guilds to beat it.
    When SoTh was released, I went in one of the dungeons and finished it at the first evening.

    They are compareable though.

    Yes, people beat shadows of the hist dungeons when they first released. So? Some people have not even beaten the hardmode yet, and Velindreth -still- uses mechanics that have been used in raids.

    In what universe is this acceptable? Why do dungeons need to be as hard as raids? Hardcore pandering and monopolizing the dev cycle.

    Months of effort are comparable to a couple of hours of yolo gameplay? I strongly disagree.
    Then again, there's a normal mdoe for those people. If you think youre too cool for normal modes, its not game's problem. The game even provides you the same loot for both versions.

    The games problem is the design is similar to raids. Everything is raids. Maelstrom is a 1 player raid. Velindreth is a raidboss. EVERYTHING IS RAIDS.

    Wake up, quit trying to make this game into 24/7 raids.

    You are the loud angry casual that this discussion doesn't need. This game has plenty of content for you, you have over 15 zones of quests and the ability to turn every damn dungeon you constantly *** about to normal. Seriously everything you say is more incentivized by some motivation you have to attack people you perceive as elitists than constructively discussing the topic. You are literally a cancer in this post. Nobody minds logical dissent, however nothing you are saying is remotely constructive and is only directed at pushing some kind of casual almost *** like agenda.

    Okay. Give me a proposal to discuss.

    If we're talking about the OP's proposal, I think that their working toward it, but the measure will probably be futile given the audience it's being made for. It will take more effort to do, than I think people realize. I think that we can do the difficulty however you like, slider, add a third difficulty mode, whatever, but that's not going to change the fact that the way shadows of the hist is designed, is remeniscent and uses mechanics ripped straight from raids. Something deeper needs to be changed in order to give the distinction, that the OP would like, and I think that's going to have to be something like new mechanics (Or the lackthereof as far as the reverse) in order to give the difficulty distinction the system is ment for.

    This is entirely suspending the 'how do we design for the difficulty crowd' stuff. This is entirely suspending that point. The question now is, how do we judge the DLC dungeons by the same metric as the rest, when they are not even remotely the same beast?

    To clarify, I dont think that changing how the difficulty system is done will change the inherent problems that come from applying it to the DLC dungeons which are fundmentally different beasts. We can make veteran balls out hard versions of the normal dungeons and give both the ability to be done on normal, that's fine, but how do you do the same with the DLC dungeons which are not even fundementally in the same league, design wise or difficulty wise?

    So how do we fix this? You tell me. You give me a suggestion.

    In fact, I'll make giving that suggestion easier.

    The TLDR of that long rambly post, is "We can change the way difficulty is chosen all we like. But can we change how the difficulty is, without serious mechanical changes? No. So how much should we change, and is it worth changing unless the bulk of the playerbase would benefite from it?"

    There. Answer those questions and I'll attempt a rational and logical discussion with you.

    @Attackopsn

    Edited by Doctordarkspawn on October 4, 2016 4:28PM
    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!

    To me, the measure of a man is whether or not he fights for his principles. It does not matter if you never had a chance to begin with. The deck could be stacked, the game rigged against you. You fight to the bitter end, because it is worth fighting for.

    NA-PC Tank player only.
  • Attackopsn
    Attackopsn
    ✭✭✭✭
    Rational explanation, unfortunately that's been provided already for previous iterations of this discussion and others. You aren't capable of one unfortunately, and I'm going to refrain from attempting to open another one with someone who clearly isn't even inherently rational or logical. I'll leave previous examples of this as evidence.
    ign: ATTACKO
    PS4 NA
    First NA Completion of VMoL Hard Mode (all NA servers)
    vma:592,363 vdsa:46,792 vhrc:152,866 vaa:142,703 vso:163,432 vmol:154797
    Dro-m'Athra Destroyer
    GM of Majeeka
  • Doctordarkspawn
    Doctordarkspawn
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Attackopsn wrote: »
    Rational explanation, unfortunately that's been provided already for previous iterations of this discussion and others. You aren't capable of one unfortunately, and I'm going to refrain from attempting to open another one with someone who clearly isn't even inherently rational or logical. I'll leave previous examples of this as evidence.

    ...Okay.

    The last thing I'll say on these forums, as I'll give them a wide bearth until the next PTS hullabalo, is that this thread was never going to be civil. The divide between you and me, the people who want difficulty, and the people who want to pug this crap, is too large now. It wasn't ever going to be civil. Even the way the OP says in the original post to take the QQ elsewhere says -everything-, this conflict is inevitable.

    Everyone has flung insults by this point. You, me, couple others....welcome to the forums.
    Edited by Doctordarkspawn on October 4, 2016 4:52PM
    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!

    To me, the measure of a man is whether or not he fights for his principles. It does not matter if you never had a chance to begin with. The deck could be stacked, the game rigged against you. You fight to the bitter end, because it is worth fighting for.

    NA-PC Tank player only.
  • Khaos_Bane
    Khaos_Bane
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Asardes wrote: »
    Playing a lot does not equate playing well. I've met quite a few max CP players, who by definition have played a lot, who played badly nevertheless. Running laps and grinding the same mobs in IC sewers or Wrothgar public dungeons using mostly the same 2-3 skill rotation (including buffs) or even the same rubber-band-able AoE skill doesn't actually develop the capabilities to play endgame solo, 4 man and 12 man content, where you actually have to take into account mechanics and , for the latter 2, what the other players are doing. Some will just end up as max CP players who have yet to L2P. I've met quite a few of those in dungeons and it ain't pretty, as one has high expectations of them, like running VICP in less than 30 minutes. When instead you get stuck at Ibomez because nobody wants to trigger the damned flesh grenades, those are totally shattered. Saddest thing is that they actually missed a huge chunk of exquisite content, stuck in that 1% of the game that maximizes XP gain.

    P.S. I'm an engineer too, I play quite a lot, but haven't actually grinded.

    So you judge "good play" as those players who know how to run vICP in less than 30 minutes and do flesh grenades. That definition seems a bit narrow.

    I bet you are a real peach when someone is trying to learn new content.
  • Asardes
    Asardes
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    ✭✭✭
    Khaos_Bane wrote: »
    Asardes wrote: »
    Playing a lot does not equate playing well. I've met quite a few max CP players, who by definition have played a lot, who played badly nevertheless. Running laps and grinding the same mobs in IC sewers or Wrothgar public dungeons using mostly the same 2-3 skill rotation (including buffs) or even the same rubber-band-able AoE skill doesn't actually develop the capabilities to play endgame solo, 4 man and 12 man content, where you actually have to take into account mechanics and , for the latter 2, what the other players are doing. Some will just end up as max CP players who have yet to L2P. I've met quite a few of those in dungeons and it ain't pretty, as one has high expectations of them, like running VICP in less than 30 minutes. When instead you get stuck at Ibomez because nobody wants to trigger the damned flesh grenades, those are totally shattered. Saddest thing is that they actually missed a huge chunk of exquisite content, stuck in that 1% of the game that maximizes XP gain.

    P.S. I'm an engineer too, I play quite a lot, but haven't actually grinded.

    So you judge "good play" as those players who know how to run vICP in less than 30 minutes and do flesh grenades. That definition seems a bit narrow.

    I bet you are a real peach when someone is trying to learn new content.

    This is just an example. It is indeed old content, but doesn't mean that all have had the time, or the patience and common sense to learn it. I usually ask the players if they know the dungeon beforehand, I explain the mechanics and what everybody needs to do in order to finish it. I just get pissed when people ignore what I tell them - some don't even bother to respond on the group chat - and they wipe repeatedly doing "their own stuff" over and over again. It's not that they don't know how to play, but that they don't even want to learn how to play.
    Edited by Asardes on October 5, 2016 8:16AM
    Beta tester since February 2014, playing ESO-TU since October 2015
    vMA | vDSA | vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL | vAS+1
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    Characters:
    Asardes | 50 Nord Dragonknight | EP AR 34 | Master Crafter: all traits, styles & recipes
    Alxaril Nelcarion | 50 High Elf Sorcerer | AD AR 18 |
    Dro'Bear Three-paws | 50 Khajiit Nightblade | AD AR 18 |
    Veronique Nicole | 50 Breton Templar | DC AR 18 |
    Sabina Flavia Cosades | 50 Imperial Warden | EP AR 18 |
    Ervesa Neloren | 50 Dark Elf Dragonknight | EP AR 18 |
    Fendar Khodwin | 50 Redguard Sorcerer | DC AR 18 |
    Surilanwe of Lillandril | 50 High Elf Nightblade | AD AR 15 |
    Joleen the Swift | 50 Redguard Templar | DC AR 7 |

    Draynor Telvanni | 50 Dark Elf Warden | EP AR 4 |
    Tharkul gro-Shug | 50 Orc Dragonknight | DC AR 4 |
    Ushruka gra-Lhurgash | 50 Orc Sorcerer | AD AR 3 |
    Cienwen ferch Llywelyn | 50 Breton Nightblade | DC AR 3 |
    Plays-with-Sunray | 50 Argonian Templar | EP AR 3 |
    Milariel | 50 Wood Elf Warden | AD AR 3 |
    Nazura-la the Bonedancer | 5 Necromancer | AD AR 0 |
    Claudius Tharn | 5 Necromancer | DC AR 0 |
    Scheei-Jul | 5 Necromancer | EP AR 0 |
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