Magika NB: Wth were they thinking

WalksonGraves

So you have your standard looking thief class which for some reason favors magika but also melee animations.

All the high damage spells have some kind of melee range component and the ranged spells are gimped by additional effects meaning their damage is toned down for balance compared to similar abilities.

So is mnb supposed to be an offheal/dps mash up because it works as good or better than a dk as a tank class and terrible as a dps. Just for clarity im not talking about stam nb.

It's like they mixed up stam and magika. They designed a game where it's more beneficial for a mage to dual wield swords than a staff so who knows.

flizomica

Mag NB is awesome as a dps. Slightly lower output but the offheals are very worthwhile and they have an awesome utility ult. Plus swords are really only viable on magicka templars at endgame.

hrothbern

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So you have your standard looking thief class which for some reason favors magika but also melee animations.

All the high damage spells have some kind of melee range component and the ranged spells are gimped by additional effects meaning their damage is toned down for balance compared to similar abilities.

So is mnb supposed to be an offheal/dps mash up because it works as good or better than a dk as a tank class and terrible as a dps. Just for clarity im not talking about stam nb.

It's like they mixed up stam and magika. They designed a game where it's more beneficial for a mage to dual wield swords than a staff so who knows.

It is for me a bit confusing what you mean @WalksonGraves ,

Are you meaning Mag NB overall ?
or Mag NB in PVE ?
or in PVP ?

Have you already unlocked Grim Focus ? and the other high level skills ?
iow do you mean lvl 50 NB, fully leveled ? or at lower levels ?

Rohamad_Ali

I know what he means . Most of the magic side morphs are still based off Melee weapon animations . Concealed weapon , impale and lotus fan . I think the original intent for both Majika and stamina NBs was to be close up Melee range fighters .

Stamina side adopted bows for range and Majika adopted staffs .

Autolycus

Magicka NBs are played differently in different types of content.

For pvp, there are multiple options, which I'm sure we could list out as a series of examples, for brevity's sake, I would classify them as either a melee assassin archetype, which is obviously magicka-based, and the traditional caster archetype. To outright ignore the amount of utility and damage potential in the siphoning tree in pvp is to do an injustice to the class on the whole. Skills like Strife and Agony are extremely powerful when used probably, particularly in combination with skills in the Assassin tree and a handful of non-class abilities that present wombo opportunities.

For pve, it varies with content. For example, taking a magblade into vMA merits an entirely different build than for a 12-man trials setting, or even in a dungeon setting (as there are builds for dungeons that use entirely different gear and skillsets than trials builds), at least with respect to "optimal" builds. A magblade trials build is capable of pulling beyond 30k dps, just as other magicka dps builds are. So in short, to say they are terrible at dps is false; it perhaps conveys a lack of experience or insight in this particular setting.

In either case, magblades are capable of strong burst damage and are the best class in terms of self-sufficiency (providing ones own buffs) and sustain (Siphoning Attacks virtually guarantees an unlimited resource pool). They have access to Major Evasion regardless of stamina/magicka orientation, which is something every other class must either get from the Medium Armor skill line or from gear. Their passives, although some of them are incredibly short in duration, are designed to provide defensive benefits during an offensive push. And to top it all off, they have potent self-healing capabilities that do not require them to halt an offensive (meaning they can attack and heal simultaneously, something that is present in other classes, but to a lesser extent in almost every case).

subtlezeroub17_ESO

Um....it is completely possible to be 100% ranged mNB. The only close ranged spells you would use. Is the AoE swallow soul and maybe the ults. Everything else can be ranged.

Zorgon_The_Revenged

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So you have your standard looking thief class which for some reason favors magika but also melee animations.

All the high damage spells have some kind of melee range component and the ranged spells are gimped by additional effects meaning their damage is toned down for balance compared to similar abilities.

As far as I know the two highest damage skills they have are impale and assassin's will, both are ranged.

And just because a class can go invisible (perfect for a thief) doesn't make them a thief.

Xvorg

There are several ways to play DPS Mageblade...

1- the melee range one (CW, lotus, soul harvest)
2- the ranged caster (the 3 first siph abilities)
3- the sap tank (mainly sap essence while permablocking)
4- the bomber (magicka deto + soul tether from invis)

All of them can be combined

WalksonGraves

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I know what he means . Most of the magic side morphs are still based off Melee weapon animations . Concealed weapon , impale and lotus fan . I think the original intent for both Majika and stamina NBs was to be close up Melee range fighters .

Stamina side adopted bows for range and Majika adopted staffs .

See he gets what I'm saying. If I spend magic I don't want the animation to be melee 90% of the time. Up close and cloth magic character are two things you do not want to mix. It's all melee animation gap closers.

As for playing dps range with agony, sure you can. You won't be comparable to other dps builds though.

AverageJo3Gam3r

Don't worry about it. With infinite range gap closers, everything is melee range.

WalksonGraves

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

Don't worry about it. With infinite range gap closers, everything is melee range.

Not everything is about pvp.

Mush55

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So you have your standard looking thief class which for some reason favors magika but also melee animations.

All the high damage spells have some kind of melee range component and the ranged spells are gimped by additional effects meaning their damage is toned down for balance compared to similar abilities.

So is mnb supposed to be an offheal/dps mash up because it works as good or better than a dk as a tank class and terrible as a dps. Just for clarity im not talking about stam nb.

It's like they mixed up stam and magika. They designed a game where it's more beneficial for a mage to dual wield swords than a staff so who knows.

Love my mageblade, destro front bar with funnel or force pulse depending on group, wall of elements, cripple , merciless and mage light. Theres your range play style with good dps.

Back bar sap, twisting path, siphon attacks , impale mage light , with 2 swords and theres your aoe and excute bar, again good all round dps

Set up like this there isn't alot of difference with other magic classes, pluss you have more than 2 buttons to push.

WalksonGraves

Mush55 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So you have your standard looking thief class which for some reason favors magika but also melee animations.

All the high damage spells have some kind of melee range component and the ranged spells are gimped by additional effects meaning their damage is toned down for balance compared to similar abilities.

So is mnb supposed to be an offheal/dps mash up because it works as good or better than a dk as a tank class and terrible as a dps. Just for clarity im not talking about stam nb.

It's like they mixed up stam and magika. They designed a game where it's more beneficial for a mage to dual wield swords than a staff so who knows.

Love my mageblade, destro front bar with funnel or force pulse depending on group, wall of elements, cripple , merciless and mage light. Theres your range play style with good dps.

Back bar sap, twisting path, siphon attacks , impale mage light , with 2 swords and theres your aoe and excute bar, again good all round dps

Set up like this there isn't alot of difference with other magic classes, pluss you have more than 2 buttons to push.

lol so your answer is using almost all staff abilities? Might as well be a sorc and do it well.

Autolycus

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Mush55 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So you have your standard looking thief class which for some reason favors magika but also melee animations.

All the high damage spells have some kind of melee range component and the ranged spells are gimped by additional effects meaning their damage is toned down for balance compared to similar abilities.

So is mnb supposed to be an offheal/dps mash up because it works as good or better than a dk as a tank class and terrible as a dps. Just for clarity im not talking about stam nb.

It's like they mixed up stam and magika. They designed a game where it's more beneficial for a mage to dual wield swords than a staff so who knows.

Love my mageblade, destro front bar with funnel or force pulse depending on group, wall of elements, cripple , merciless and mage light. Theres your range play style with good dps.

Back bar sap, twisting path, siphon attacks , impale mage light , with 2 swords and theres your aoe and excute bar, again good all round dps

Set up like this there isn't alot of difference with other magic classes, pluss you have more than 2 buttons to push.

lol so your answer is using almost all staff abilities? Might as well be a sorc and do it well.

How does 2 destro abilities equate to all staff? He even stated that his back-bar is DW swords. And only 1 staff ability if you use Swallow instead of Pulse. Smh...

WalksonGraves

I personally can't use a 2h and lose that 3rd set bonus.

AGrz5585

WalksonGraves wrote: »

I personally can't use a 2h and lose that 3rd set bonus.

Then your outta luck.

I run a destro/resto magNB. Do good in pvp, no problems in dungeons, and can farm vma. Don't use any Marlee skills unless I'm going to use the bomber build in pvp

kylewwefan

The group utility you get from MagBlade are great. They're also super fun to play and learn. I couldn't see going DW because elemental blockade and healing ward is too good to give up.

Maybe I could do without the resto staff, but it's usually good to keep handy doing pug dungeons.

Mush55

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Mush55 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So you have your standard looking thief class which for some reason favors magika but also melee animations.

All the high damage spells have some kind of melee range component and the ranged spells are gimped by additional effects meaning their damage is toned down for balance compared to similar abilities.

So is mnb supposed to be an offheal/dps mash up because it works as good or better than a dk as a tank class and terrible as a dps. Just for clarity im not talking about stam nb.

It's like they mixed up stam and magika. They designed a game where it's more beneficial for a mage to dual wield swords than a staff so who knows.

Love my mageblade, destro front bar with funnel or force pulse depending on group, wall of elements, cripple , merciless and mage light. Theres your range play style with good dps.

Back bar sap, twisting path, siphon attacks , impale mage light , with 2 swords and theres your aoe and excute bar, again good all round dps

Set up like this there isn't alot of difference with other magic classes, pluss you have more than 2 buttons to push.

lol so your answer is using almost all staff abilities? Might as well be a sorc and do it well.

Some times I wonder about people, There are 2 staff abilitys depending on the grp I run with, sorc will need 3 with no option to drop any.

Also if you are ranged magic I'm not sure if any class can get away with out running a destro staff and using an ability from that line.

MrTarkanian48

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Mush55 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So you have your standard looking thief class which for some reason favors magika but also melee animations.

All the high damage spells have some kind of melee range component and the ranged spells are gimped by additional effects meaning their damage is toned down for balance compared to similar abilities.

So is mnb supposed to be an offheal/dps mash up because it works as good or better than a dk as a tank class and terrible as a dps. Just for clarity im not talking about stam nb.

It's like they mixed up stam and magika. They designed a game where it's more beneficial for a mage to dual wield swords than a staff so who knows.

Love my mageblade, destro front bar with funnel or force pulse depending on group, wall of elements, cripple , merciless and mage light. Theres your range play style with good dps.

Back bar sap, twisting path, siphon attacks , impale mage light , with 2 swords and theres your aoe and excute bar, again good all round dps

Set up like this there isn't alot of difference with other magic classes, pluss you have more than 2 buttons to push.

lol so your answer is using almost all staff abilities? Might as well be a sorc and do it well.

That is two staff abilities, and one can be swapped out with Swallow Soul (ranged spammable) based on preference. Its dirt cheap and heals you. This is an option few other magicka classes have which means they are handcuffed to Force Pulse.

Every Mag build uses Blockade of Elements, just like every stam build uses endless hail.

Crippling Grasp is one of the hardest hitting ranged dots in the game that gives you major expedition

Merciless Resolve is a free ranged ability that procs in normal rotation with your ranged staff attack weave. It also gives you Minor Berserk (8% damage which is huge)

Impale is an excellent ranged execute.

Then soul harvest, though melee range, gives 10 Ulti per kill while having it slotted. This equals frequent use of Shooting Star which is ranged and used by almost all mag builds.

Siphoning Attacks gives ranged casters magblades unlimited magic sustain.

Access to Major Sorcery via Sap Essence (melee range) or Entropy from change just like all other classes

Then you have passives: 10% Crit Damage, Additional crit % for Assassination abilities, 8% Max Magic for siphoning abilities slotted, Ulti gain from siphoning skills and 20 Ulti per pot.

I farm vMA on a Magblade, and never go melee.

Unsent.Soul

Bar 1 harness, Grim resolve, grasp, inner, siphoning
Bar 2 blockade, twisting, sap, inner, strife (morph depends on situation)

Dual destro, 2 valkyn, 5 julianos, 3 willpower.

Couple skills can be rotated out for more Dots but it's all situational. The only skill I have that puts me in harms way is sap, but that's after 2 other dots are dropped and harness is up.

Great dps, 1 staff ability (for OP'S "lol play sorc comment) and mobs and bosses just melt. Valkyn proc is incredible, meteors fall like it's a shower.

OPs arguement about magicka classes having melee animations can be said about other classes as well.

Xvorg

WalksonGraves wrote: »

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

Don't worry about it. With infinite range gap closers, everything is melee range.

Not everything is about pvp.

Then you should start using Impale on bosses

dodgehopper_ESO

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So you have your standard looking thief class which for some reason favors magika but also melee animations.

All the high damage spells have some kind of melee range component and the ranged spells are gimped by additional effects meaning their damage is toned down for balance compared to similar abilities.

So is mnb supposed to be an offheal/dps mash up because it works as good or better than a dk as a tank class and terrible as a dps. Just for clarity im not talking about stam nb.

It's like they mixed up stam and magika. They designed a game where it's more beneficial for a mage to dual wield swords than a staff so who knows.

Play a magic DK some time. They have no ranged attacks, apart from dragon leap (which puts them in melee, and it is an ultimate).

On the matter of DW Sword/Daggers I have to admit I find it odd that you can squeeze more magic damage out of these weapons than a Magical staff. I believe they wanted to keep the old excuses to use stamina weapons on magic characters, but it doesn't work with the 'new' rulesets (I realize those rules are not so new now). I can remember when the 2Hander had a rather interesting bonus it offered toward Elemental secondary effects, making them have a 100% proc chance. The lack of overcharging makes hybrid construction less favorable, but there are a lot of improvements in the game in other areas.

Another element of the rules I find annoying is the shift in importance upon which race you combine with which class/build now. I would like to see race be less important, and at least its effects somehow part of a diminishing return so that all races can be all things more reasonably.

Siphoneer

Stop pigeonholing Magicka builds into sticks and robes

a1i3nz

Bombing isn't even a thing anymore unless you're in a great situation. Now that Templars have their own caltrops and its a stam meta, good luck getting near any groups to bomb. CC hell right now. On top of det being nerfed to sh&*

altemriel

check out these two builds!!

https://youtu.be/JrsbZK-EUw0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-yN60RD7nU


and this is fun too:
https://youtu.be/kK19S2YPAUM
(info about this bomber build here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3351820/#Comment_3351820 )

altemriel

as a mag NB you can stay cloaked almost forever, us it!!

Artis

chloethefoxxub17_ESO wrote: »

Mag NB is awesome as a dps. Slightly lower output but the offheals are very worthwhile and they have an awesome utility ult. Plus swords are really only viable on magicka templars at endgame.

Not even. In my raid guilds they are almost never used. Offheals don't matter, healing is healer's job + everyone can heal themselves a little. And their DPS is CONSIDERABLY lower than that of, say, stamina builds. Also, swords are used by NBs on the AOE/execute bar. We'll see if the new update will change things. In this season they sucked compared to others.

Mush55 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

So you have your standard looking thief class which for some reason favors magika but also melee animations.

All the high damage spells have some kind of melee range component and the ranged spells are gimped by additional effects meaning their damage is toned down for balance compared to similar abilities.

So is mnb supposed to be an offheal/dps mash up because it works as good or better than a dk as a tank class and terrible as a dps. Just for clarity im not talking about stam nb.

It's like they mixed up stam and magika. They designed a game where it's more beneficial for a mage to dual wield swords than a staff so who knows.

Love my mageblade, destro front bar with funnel or force pulse depending on group, wall of elements, cripple , merciless and mage light. Theres your range play style with good dps.

Back bar sap, twisting path, siphon attacks , impale mage light , with 2 swords and theres your aoe and excute bar, again good all round dps

Set up like this there isn't alot of difference with other magic classes, pluss you have more than 2 buttons to push.

Yeah, that's the build everyone is using. The problem is, DPS is "good" all around as in it's passable. It's just worse than what others can pull.

Autolycus

Artis wrote: »

Yeah, that's the build everyone is using. The problem is, DPS is "good" all around as in it's passable. It's just worse than what others can pull.

A 30-35k magblade dps is perfectly fine for veteran trials, and they're used all the time. Of course it's not comparable to stamina dps, because magicka and stamina are not comparable period. That's a balance issue, and isn't stopping people from doing trials anyway, particularly the groups who are almost entirely composed of magicka characters.

Izaki

Xvorg wrote: »

There are several ways to play DPS Mageblade...

1- the melee range one (CW, lotus, soul harvest)
2- the ranged caster (the 3 first siph abilities)
3- the sap tank (mainly sap essence while permablocking)
4- the bomber (magicka deto + soul tether from invis)

All of them can be combined

That only PvP. And you said DPS mageblade yet you're talking about a sap tank. What?
I think that the term DPS isn't very accurate in PvP because you don't just do damage, you have to defend yourself, move around, etc. DPS is damage per second as you most likely know, and in PvE that's just what you do, you do as much damage per second as possible with the tank and healer taking care of the survivability.

And you didn't list PvE mageblades, its the same game remember?

Izaki

Autolycus wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Yeah, that's the build everyone is using. The problem is, DPS is "good" all around as in it's passable. It's just worse than what others can pull.

A 30-35k magblade dps is perfectly fine for veteran trials, and they're used all the time. Of course it's not comparable to stamina dps, because magicka and stamina are not comparable period. That's a balance issue, and isn't stopping people from doing trials anyway, particularly the groups who are almost entirely composed of magicka characters.

The best mage sorcerers are pulling near to 50k, the best stam sorcerers are just above 50k. Don't see that much of a balance issue on the highest play level. An average magicka sorcerer will be pulling 35-40k DPS and an average stamina sorcerer might be able to reach 42k. Rotations are hard for both classes. You can't say they aren't comparable because they are, but they are different. Stamina rotations are definitely very hard, magicka ones are easier (excluding sorc). Stamina has to be all melee whereas most magicka have range. In PvE the balance is okay, unlike in PvP.
They are comparable and both are welcome in trials. Especially now that the vMA dual wield will be nerfed, both will be pretty close.

Autolycus

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Yeah, that's the build everyone is using. The problem is, DPS is "good" all around as in it's passable. It's just worse than what others can pull.

A 30-35k magblade dps is perfectly fine for veteran trials, and they're used all the time. Of course it's not comparable to stamina dps, because magicka and stamina are not comparable period. That's a balance issue, and isn't stopping people from doing trials anyway, particularly the groups who are almost entirely composed of magicka characters.

The best mage sorcerers are pulling near to 50k, the best stam sorcerers are just above 50k. Don't see that much of a balance issue on the highest play level. An average magicka sorcerer will be pulling 35-40k DPS and an average stamina sorcerer might be able to reach 42k. Rotations are hard for both classes. You can't say they aren't comparable because they are, but they are different. Stamina rotations are definitely very hard, magicka ones are easier (excluding sorc). Stamina has to be all melee whereas most magicka have range. In PvE the balance is okay, unlike in PvP.
They are comparable and both are welcome in trials. Especially now that the vMA dual wield will be nerfed, both will be pretty close.

I thought we were talking about magblades. For the sake of incorporating your comparison, there are plenty of magblades who are capable of the 35-40k range too, just as a magicka Sorc can. The rotation for a magblade isn't any easier than it is for any stamina character, with constant bar-swapping and buff management being a necessity. The point I was trying to make is that, despite stamina NBs being capable of pulling anywhere between 40-50k, which is usually quite a bit higher than what a magblade will pull, both have a place in trials. We seem to agree on that point.