The missing stat

sly007

An issue being faced by the devs is the strong correlation between resources, damage, and healing. Magicka builds with high maximum magicka and spell damage not only do great damage but can also heal themselves very well. The same is true about stamina builds. With high enough resource pools and damage, a player can become a mighty foe with high survivability without speccing into defences or health due to great heals.

This brings me to the missing stat I am referring to. We have stamina, weapon damage, and stamina recovery. They each contribute to being a stamina based character; and magicka based uses magicka, spell damage, and magicka recovery. But the same isn't true for health. There is health and heath recovery. There is a missing stat for health based characters. Now, what if this missing, let's call it constitution, was placed into the game.

This new stat can work just like every other stat in the game. Currently, increasing your weapon damage increases your damage done and healing done. Instead, let's introduce constitution which will increase your healing. Therefore, the two stats, spell damage and weapon damage will not increase your healing done. If a player wants increased healing done, he/she will have to increase his/her constitution and health. Vigor, breath of life, healing ward, dragon blood, rally, healing spring, etc., will all scale with maximum health and constitution.

Albeit I haven't given this much detailed thought but consider it. Tanks roam with a variety of resources pools with health usually being the highest. Tanks though, do not use weapon and spell damage much, nor well they use the new constitution stat because just like weapon and spell damage, it will not benefit their role. Damage dealers currently do not spec into health. Most put every resource available into weapon damage/spell damage and stamina/magicka. They as well, will not spec into the new constitution stat. Healers, on the other hand, will. Healers will have to reduce their weapon/spell damage stat and increase their constitution state as well as their health in order to heal effectively.

Now, if this was applied to cyrodiil, players will have to create builds with a very specific damage dealing role or dance between decent damage and reliable self heals by speccing into both weapon damage/spell damage and constitution. Tanks can increase either their constitution, sacrificing damage to self heal or rely completely on a healer who has great heals but mininal damage.

This might fix a few problems while contributing to the player diversity we all crave. Or, it might very well destroy the game we have come to enjoy. What are your opinion?

Asardes

You can increase the healing done received in different ways:
- racial passives: Argonian both done and received, orc just received
- major mending (healing done): DK: ingenous shield, Templar: sacred ground passive, heavy attack from restoration staff
- minor/major vitality (healing received): NB soul syphon/DK: coagullate blood, various other skills
- Support skill line: combat medic passive (healing done near keeps)
- putting CP in quick recovery (healing received) and blessed (healing done)
- burning heart DK passive and heavy armor mending passive (healing received)
- soul syphoner NB passive (healing done)
- mending Templar passive (healing done to low health targets)
- various sets that grant bonuses to healing done or received, permanent or proc, that stack with the others (if they are not called the same)

I really see no reason why there should be another stat for healing.

sly007

You missed the entire point. I suppose I might not have been very clear. The ability to deal high damage, high heals, while having high survivability by speccing only into damage is something the devs wants to change. That's something I would like to xhange as well.

wolfxspice

i thought this was going to be about your focus rating or crit modifier, and how you should be able to see it on console. man was i wrong.

stevepdodson_ESO888

if this "constitution" that you suggest might also have some bearing on "protection" (i.e. spell/phys resistance), improve effectiveness of any shields you use and improve healing received along with the suggested healing done then it could become something useful for all types of builds

sly007

stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »

if this "constitution" that you suggest might also have some bearing on "protection" (i.e. spell/phys resistance), improve effectiveness of any shields you use and improve healing received along with the suggested healing done then it could become something useful for all types of builds

Pricely. It can to taken towards a completely new direction granted it helps with the issue presented.

SkylarkX

Interesting concept.. Maybe it could also be drawn on for breaking free instead of stamina pool?

Ferrofluid

Interesting idea, but implementing it would destroy healers. They'd have to put so much into health to get decent heals that they wouldn't have enough magicka to cast them.

Asardes

Ferrofluid wrote: »

Interesting idea, but implementing it would destroy healers. They'd have to put so much into health to get decent heals that they wouldn't have enough magicka to cast them.

Not necessarily, as weapon/spell damage don't scale of your max stamina/magicka even now, but scale independently from it, from racial & class passives (just as the healing bonuses I listed above) but mostly from gear bonuses. I agree that it could be implemented as a separate stat for more sets of gear, but that's about it.

idk

@sly007

No. There is no reason to tie a players healing effectiveness or damage and such to health or another mystery stat. It works just fine being based on max mag/spell or max stam/weapon.

The current system of using max mag/stam and weapon/spell damage works fine.

Currently tanks can choose to self heal and csn choose a myriad of builds. Dps can choose to be more defensive of offensive. Granted, for challenging trials focused builds works best.

tnanever

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@sly007

No. There is no reason to tie a players healing effectiveness or damage and such to health or another mystery stat. It works just fine being based on max mag/spell or max stam/weapon.

The current system of using max mag/stam and weapon/spell damage works fine.

Currently tanks can choose to self heal and csn choose a myriad of builds. Dps can choose to be more defensive of offensive. Granted, for challenging trials focused builds works best.

Wrong. It doesn't work fine. Even wroble recently said that focusing 100% in magicka or stamina, for simultaneous benefits in both offense and defensive capability, isn't what ESO should be about.

There needs to be a significant to reason focus on health/recovery, and more importantly, to make hybrid builds more competitive (I think soft-caps should come back - even better would be general diminishing returns instead of a specific wall).

While I'm not necessarily completely in agreement with the OP's idea of adding a healing-type stat, I will say that something is needed to change the stat system, and that you're completely wrong for saying the current system is fine.

dodgehopper_ESO

They could have also kept the original TES (and fallout) model of attributes:

Willpower (Healing), Intelligence (Spell damage), Personality (Summons)
Endurance, Agility (Helps with dodging/blocking/etc), Strength (Weapon Damage), Speed(could probably be rolled into Agility),
Luck: (Crits)
Derived: Health, Magicka, Fatigue

I don't need to work it all out here, but the point is with more attributes they could have made differentiation between builds more noticeable. Magic and Stamina serve as double duty because there are only 3 attributes in the game.

idk

tnanever wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@sly007

No. There is no reason to tie a players healing effectiveness or damage and such to health or another mystery stat. It works just fine being based on max mag/spell or max stam/weapon.

The current system of using max mag/stam and weapon/spell damage works fine.

Currently tanks can choose to self heal and csn choose a myriad of builds. Dps can choose to be more defensive of offensive. Granted, for challenging trials focused builds works best.

Wrong. It doesn't work fine. Even wroble recently said that focusing 100% in magicka or stamina, for simultaneous benefits in both offense and defensive capability, isn't what ESO should be about.

There needs to be a significant to reason focus on health/recovery, and more importantly, to make hybrid builds more competitive (I think soft-caps should come back - even better would be general diminishing returns instead of a specific wall).

While I'm not necessarily completely in agreement with the OP's idea of adding a healing-type stat, I will say that something is needed to change the stat system, and that you're completely wrong for saying the current system is fine.

@tnanever maybe you should pay more attention to what wrobel actually said.

He certainly didn't mean adding some absurdly complicated system to entice us to put points into health. It'll happen through a much simpler means.

Drummerx04

Guys... he is not trying to entice people to put attribute points into health. He is trying to add another stat for healing

• magicka -> spell damage
• stamina -> weapon damage
• health -> "constitution" or healing power

This would mean there could be jewelry enchants and sets for healing power over spell damage. The heals can still scale off of magicka pool, but would no longer scale with spell damage. The idea is obviously to push for role selection. Whether this accomplishes that in a reasonable way was the discussion the OP was trying to start.

Nyghthowler

I may be looking at it incorrectly, but I don't see how adding a separate pool for health makes a difference. The problem is Stam is used for almost every thing while Magika is only used for spells.
Yes, I know that a player that invests all their points into Magika has a smaller Stam pool to draw from. But they still have it for nothing but sprinting, dodging, and blocking while a Stam build character is using it for those on top of powering their abilities.
I think a separate resource specifically for run/block/dodge needs to be implemented that auto increases with leveling while not allowing point investment into it.
JMO

tnanever

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

tnanever wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@sly007

No. There is no reason to tie a players healing effectiveness or damage and such to health or another mystery stat. It works just fine being based on max mag/spell or max stam/weapon.

The current system of using max mag/stam and weapon/spell damage works fine.

Currently tanks can choose to self heal and csn choose a myriad of builds. Dps can choose to be more defensive of offensive. Granted, for challenging trials focused builds works best.

Wrong. It doesn't work fine. Even wroble recently said that focusing 100% in magicka or stamina, for simultaneous benefits in both offense and defensive capability, isn't what ESO should be about.

There needs to be a significant to reason focus on health/recovery, and more importantly, to make hybrid builds more competitive (I think soft-caps should come back - even better would be general diminishing returns instead of a specific wall).

While I'm not necessarily completely in agreement with the OP's idea of adding a healing-type stat, I will say that something is needed to change the stat system, and that you're completely wrong for saying the current system is fine.

@tnanever maybe you should pay more attention to what wrobel actually said.

He certainly didn't mean adding some absurdly complicated system to entice us to put points into health. It'll happen through a much simpler means.

@Giles.floydub17_ESO maybe you should pay attention to what I actually said, which was:
"While I'm not necessarily completely in agreement with the OP's idea of adding a healing-type stat, I will say that something is needed to change the stat system..." I never said we needed an "absurdly complicated system", or anything remotely like that.

How about you focus on reading comprehension, instead of making things up and pretending that I said them? If you want to argue against my post, then argue against my point.

idk

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Guys... he is not trying to entice people to put attribute points into health. He is trying to add another stat for healing

• magicka -> spell damage
• stamina -> weapon damage
• health -> "constitution" or healing power

This would mean there could be jewelry enchants and sets for healing power over spell damage. The heals can still scale off of magicka pool, but would no longer scale with spell damage. The idea is obviously to push for role selection. Whether this accomplishes that in a reasonable way was the discussion the OP was trying to start.

@Drummerx04

Sooo, rip apart the new system and make it moe chsllenging for a healer to also be a damage dealer.

Restrict the usage of our characters even more then the Chsmpion system already did.

Extreemly horrible idea all around. Short sighted and completely not needed or wanted. An idea of "let's gimp our support people" is really bad.

sly007

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Guys... he is not trying to entice people to put attribute points into health. He is trying to add another stat for healing

• magicka -> spell damage
• stamina -> weapon damage
• health -> "constitution" or healing power

This would mean there could be jewelry enchants and sets for healing power over spell damage. The heals can still scale off of magicka pool, but would no longer scale with spell damage. The idea is obviously to push for role selection. Whether this accomplishes that in a reasonable way was the discussion the OP was trying to start.

@Drummerx04

Sooo, rip apart the new system and make it moe chsllenging for a healer to also be a damage dealer.

Restrict the usage of our characters even more then the Chsmpion system already did.

Extreemly horrible idea all around. Short sighted and completely not needed or wanted. An idea of "let's gimp our support people" is really bad.

Players are fond of being able to do multiple roles without having to spec into them. Taking that away will be a step in the right direction.

SirAndy

I'd rather see a 4th resource pool for things like block/dodge/sprint etc.

Right now, you can make a pure stamina build that will never use any magicka at all but you can't make a magicka build that will never use any stamina.

This is the main reason why ZOS has not been able to balance classes in the 3 years i have been playing this game ...

sly007

SirAndy wrote: »

I'd rather see a 4th resource pool for things like block/dodge/sprint etc.

Right now, you can make a pure stamina build that will never use any magicka at all but you can't make a magicka build that will never use any stamina.

This is the main reason why ZOS has not been able to balance classes in the 3 years i have been playing this game ...

I agree that the important of a stamina pool is much higher for a magicka build than magicka for stamina build. But I think that magicka builds can overcome that challenge by putting some points into breakfree cost reduction.

Mic1007

We're missing two stats, with sets already named after them:

Agility, which controls your ability to roll dodge, sprint, break free, etc. This would help Magicka builds out with there 'Stunned = Dead' Problem that Stamina builds are currently immune to, and make it harder for anyone to endlessly dodge roll.

Willpower, which controls your Healing abilities. Example, Breath of Life would scale off Willpower and Magicka; Spell Damage would not affect it, but your Magicka count can still make it heal enough for emergencies if you are a DPS. The same would apply for Vigor on a Stamina build.

Putting these in will make Healers important in all group content, and will finally break this 'stack-into-one-stat' problem we all have. At least that's what I believe. It'd have to be more developed that what I just came up with.

DaniAngione

SirAndy wrote: »

I'd rather see a 4th resource pool for things like block/dodge/sprint etc.

Right now, you can make a pure stamina build that will never use any magicka at all but you can't make a magicka build that will never use any stamina.

This is the main reason why ZOS has not been able to balance classes in the 3 years i have been playing this game ...

I'm not sure I agree.

This balances itself by the fact that stamina users must control their damage output to "reserve" their main resource for CC breaks and rolls.

When playing my magicka character, I can always attack full power and will have stamina for a break or roll if necessary.

So yes, stam is much more important for magicka characters than magicka is for stamina characters, however magicka characters have the advantage of not needing to "save" magicka for CC Breaks and rolls and control its use as much as stamina characters do.

STEVIL

sly007 wrote: »

An issue being faced by the devs is the strong correlation between resources, damage, and healing. Magicka builds with high maximum magicka and spell damage not only do great damage but can also heal themselves very well. The same is true about stamina builds. With high enough resource pools and damage, a player can become a mighty foe with high survivability without speccing into defences or health due to great heals.

This brings me to the missing stat I am referring to. We have stamina, weapon damage, and stamina recovery. They each contribute to being a stamina based character; and magicka based uses magicka, spell damage, and magicka recovery. But the same isn't true for health. There is health and heath recovery. There is a missing stat for health based characters. Now, what if this missing, let's call it constitution, was placed into the game.

This new stat can work just like every other stat in the game. Currently, increasing your weapon damage increases your damage done and healing done. Instead, let's introduce constitution which will increase your healing. Therefore, the two stats, spell damage and weapon damage will not increase your healing done. If a player wants increased healing done, he/she will have to increase his/her constitution and health. Vigor, breath of life, healing ward, dragon blood, rally, healing spring, etc., will all scale with maximum health and constitution.

Albeit I haven't given this much detailed thought but consider it. Tanks roam with a variety of resources pools with health usually being the highest. Tanks though, do not use weapon and spell damage much, nor well they use the new constitution stat because just like weapon and spell damage, it will not benefit their role. Damage dealers currently do not spec into health. Most put every resource available into weapon damage/spell damage and stamina/magicka. They as well, will not spec into the new constitution stat. Healers, on the other hand, will. Healers will have to reduce their weapon/spell damage stat and increase their constitution state as well as their health in order to heal effectively.

Now, if this was applied to cyrodiil, players will have to create builds with a very specific damage dealing role or dance between decent damage and reliable self heals by speccing into both weapon damage/spell damage and constitution. Tanks can increase either their constitution, sacrificing damage to self heal or rely completely on a healer who has great heals but mininal damage.

This might fix a few problems while contributing to the player diversity we all crave. Or, it might very well destroy the game we have come to enjoy. What are your opinion?

my suggestion is to instead make health the recovery stat.

move stamina and magica recovery under health.


Also consider moving other elements like shields and maybe all heals under health WITH SOME SPECIFIC EXCEPTIONS.
Sorcerer gets a magica shield strength passive
Templat gets a magica heal strength passive
various races can get passives that also switch it up.

if you want total overhaul,
d

1. o the all recovery scales on health thing, heals scale on health, shield scale on health and make each class have its three skill lines divided between one for health, one for magica and one for stamina with a lot of differences as to how each does which.
2. then have racial

passives that adjust these.

Arora

I would like to see Spell Penetratoin