A solution for overland difficulty - the Curse of Clavicus Vile

Thraben

Hi!

As we all know adventuring in One Tamriel is far too easy for experienced players. As ZOS doesn´t appear to introduce a typical Elder Scrolls difficulty slider, mabe we can have this? While the greater income will be automatically reduced by higher repair costs, the purple and yellow loot is the true incencitive - not because it´s good but because we crafters want to deconstruct it


The Curse of Clavicus Vile

You have wished for great wealth - and now you will suffer for it.

Duration: 60 Minutes
Not active in instances or in Cyrodiil.

Decreases your damage by 50%.
Increases incoming damage by 50%.
Increases your skill costs by 50%.

Increases the money you earn by defeating enemies by 100%.
Increases the chance to get loot of purple or gold quality from defeated enemies.

You can be cursed after praying at a Daedric Shrine of Clavicus Vile.

Darlon

Increasing skill cost has nothing to do with increasing difficulty. It just makes fights tedious. Also it will hit some classes way harder than others, no thanks.

DKsUnite

Darlon wrote: »

Increasing skill cost has nothing to do with increasing difficulty. It just makes fights tedious. Also it will hit some classes way harder than others, no thanks.

its a optinal debuff.... if you dont want it, you dont need to pick it up

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

This one would remove the skill cost increase from this, but other than that this one would approve of such a measure. And humble Khajiit does want some of the overland sets and hopes that the jewellery is purple or gold.

Besides, any repeatable which offers more difficulty would be nice.

Mojmir

Uhm,hell no.

Doctordarkspawn

No reason.

No purpose other than to please a demographic that is that 1% of the playerbase that want difficult content as if this is a singleplayer game.



Why do these people keep making these sorts of demands as if this is a singleplayer game that needs more difficulty? I dont -get it-. Has it never occured to you guys what you want isn't provided by MMO's and thus maybe the genre isn't for you? Dark souls this is not. Dark souls this has never been. Quit asking for it to be.

You are proposing a solution for something that isn't a problem for most if not almost the entirety of the playerbase. If you want to be challenged as an individual, there are plenty of games, single player games, that give you that. Fallout New Vegas hardcore mode. The Dark souls series. Take your pick, but given the ammount of tireless attempts to try and get this game harder that have gone ignored, It's very clear this game will not be one of them.

And I hope it never is.

Ankael07

Or simply deactivate CP as a part of the debuff.

Erasure

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Because it'd be fun, that's why. Imagine the scene: Hey man, my 4man cleared out some dolmens while Cursed last night, look at all this loot! It was tough, but more than worthwhile; we got 4 hours worth of loot in 2 by being able to handle the challenge.

Risk to reward tweak, eh? It would even be simple to add this, it really only needs one npc (the shrine), a few lines of dialog, and the character status effect.

Doctordarkspawn

Erasure wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Because it'd be fun, that's why. Imagine the scene: Hey man, my 4man cleared out some dolmens while Cursed last night, look at all this loot! It was tough, but more than worthwhile; we got 4 hours worth of loot in 2 by being able to handle the challenge.

Risk to reward tweak, eh? It would even be simple to add this, it really only needs one npc (the shrine), a few lines of dialog, and the character status effect.

It'd be fun, and then no one would use it. Dev time, people in a recording studio, code work, for something that will barely be used.

Wasted. Resources.

Erasure

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

It'd be fun, and then no one would use it. Dev time, people in a recording studio, code work, for something that will barely be used.

Wasted. Resources.

There is an active endgame pve community to whom overland content is already wasted resources, because it's easy to the point of being dull. It's alright if you're not part of it and see no benefit for yourself, but I and many others would enjoy something like this.

But this is just spitballing anyway, it's the final PTS iteration, nothing like this will come to the game in October. January, though, maybe?

Doctordarkspawn

Erasure wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

It'd be fun, and then no one would use it. Dev time, people in a recording studio, code work, for something that will barely be used.

Wasted. Resources.

There is an active endgame pve community to whom overland content is already wasted resources, because it's easy to the point of being dull. It's alright if you're not part of it and see no benefit for yourself, but I and many others would enjoy something like this.

But this is just spitballing anyway, it's the final PTS iteration, nothing like this will come to the game in October. January, though, maybe?

Oddly enough, no. The overland content isn't a wasted resources. They've been campaigning for harder worldbosses, a point I'm actually -with- them on for the most part.

But then again, it's a push for difficulty when the difficulty isn't the problem. The problem is players wanting these challenges because they've become bored running the same content over and over, mastering the game and such.

It's not going to be solved with this. It wasn't solved with the shadow of the hist dungeons. It will -never- be solved. Because you cannot 'solve' burnout. And that's what it is, burnout. But instead of recognizing it and taking a break, people just demand harder content to fill a sudden void, and no content, nor changes to it, will fill that void.

Erasure

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

It will -never- be solved. Because you cannot 'solve' burnout. And that's what it is, burnout.

True enough, and I agree with that sentiment, but that's not why I like this idea. Increased rewards for increased skill to obtain them is a positive for me. I'm a great supporter of vMA and hardmode Trials for that reason. They are optional modes for people who want a tougher fight, and if there were something like that for overland as well, I think it would get used pretty often. As long as it stays optional, of course.

Doctordarkspawn

Erasure wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

It will -never- be solved. Because you cannot 'solve' burnout. And that's what it is, burnout.

True enough, and I agree with that sentiment, but that's not why I like this idea. Increased rewards for increased skill to obtain them is a positive for me. I'm a great supporter of vMA and hardmode Trials for that reason. They are optional modes for people who want a tougher fight, and if there were something like that for overland as well, I think it would get used pretty often. As long as it stays optional, of course.

At the start of things, I was a supporter of hardmode trials and such things. (VMA less so, but then again, I've allways thought VMA's design is fundementallly borked and needs changed, but that's neither here nor there.) As time has gone on and I've seen the ammount of people that actually do them, and I'm not saying there's not a market for them, that support has started to waver.

My resistance to this kind of idea comes from two places.

One, the aforementioned burnout crowd, who keep pushing for Difficulty for a game they no longer want to play.

Two. Exactly -how- Zos has done difficulty in the past, and I disagree with how it's been done. The Shadow of the Hist dungeons were a great example. Look at the final boss hardmode of Mazzatun. The healer gets statue duty, the totem comes up, and then Mighty Chuldan comes up. A well trained group could do it, and did on PTS. Everyone else, settles for the normal.

They overchallenge, and that's why I dont trust this idea. If I were more confident of ZOS's abilities, I would be shouting my support, but as such all I see are what can go wrong.

That's just my view on the idea itself, of course.

(PS, Kudos for your tone about the entire exchange, I may be sick and grouchy but this was a refreshing change.)

Enodoc

I like the idea to give people the option of increasing difficulty, and the connection with Clavicus Vile through his "pacts with mortals" is a good one. Personally I don't think increasing skill costs is necessary, but perhaps instead of increased damage and increased skill cost, there is a percentage reduction in max health/magicka/stamina.

What other things could be considered as contributing to an 'increased difficulty' option, since that seems to be the general purpose of this idea?

CasNation

I like the idea. To those who don't think it wouldnt be used: you are all fools. Every player worth their salt would be running the curse to get that chance at gold loot drops. Do you have any idea how much end game players care about gold jewelry? Do you have any idea how much serious farmers can sell that stuff for? Do you have any idea how many crap players who think they are good will buy it or farm for it anyways? It would be used plenty, trust me. As for dev time argument...seriously? It would basically just be applying an adjusted battle spirtit for a duration. They already have most of the tech for that.

Darlon

CasNation wrote: »

I like the idea. To those who don't think it wouldnt be used: you are all fools. Every player worth their salt would be running the curse to get that chance at gold loot drops. Do you have any idea how much end game players care about gold jewelry? Do you have any idea how much serious farmers can sell that stuff for? Do you have any idea how many crap players who think they are good will buy it or farm for it anyways? It would be used plenty, trust me. As for dev time argument...seriously? It would basically just be applying an adjusted battle spirtit for a duration. They already have most of the tech for that.

It wouldn't really make the game difficult though, just tedious... And like you said, you would have to use the buff to get gold rewards (and everyone 'worth their salt' like you call it wants those), so you would basically 'force' this tedious game mode on the playerbase -> people burn out even faster

No thanks

Soella

I am a pretty average player, but I would definitely welcome ability to choose such curse. I don't see big deal with implementing it - debuffs are already implemented, so adding couple more should not be a big deal. Chance on drop already is per person - so no big deal as well.

As for curing burning out - I think the main reason for it is endless farm. Ability to increase difficulty on demand to shorten farm will definitely help with it.

deadlychaos1991

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

No reason.

No purpose other than to please a demographic that is that 1% of the playerbase that want difficult content as if this is a singleplayer game.



Why do these people keep making these sorts of demands as if this is a singleplayer game that needs more difficulty? I dont -get it-. Has it never occured to you guys what you want isn't provided by MMO's and thus maybe the genre isn't for you? Dark souls this is not. Dark souls this has never been. Quit asking for it to be.

You are proposing a solution for something that isn't a problem for most if not almost the entirety of the playerbase. If you want to be challenged as an individual, there are plenty of games, single player games, that give you that. Fallout New Vegas hardcore mode. The Dark souls series. Take your pick, but given the ammount of tireless attempts to try and get this game harder that have gone ignored, It's very clear this game will not be one of them.

And I hope it never is.

You obviously have never played ANY actual MMO. Difficult content appeals to end game players who don't want everything handed to them on a silver platter. Eso is tailoring itself to casual scrubs and is turning into a joke of an MMO.

Let's take a look at the staple-mark of ALL MMO's, world of Warcraft. It cyclically creates new content that tailors to all 3 types of players. They have a large new region that has a bunch of casual scrub solo content, usually a new raid with like 4 different difficulties (pick up group, normal, heroic, and mythic, the latter 2 being REALLY challenging and rewarding) and new battlegrounds, arenas and tournaments for all the pvp enthusiasts.

There's a reason WoW is still going VERY strong after 12 years and eso lost almost all its initial followers after 6 months and has to appeal to new customers now.

Faulgor

That sounds like a really great addition, but

- 100% more gold will still be negligible
- Gold gear should never drop from normal mobs

I think a moderate exp and overall drop chance (similar to the Treasure Hunter perk) increase would be appropriate.

Also, it would be amazing if there were a lot of new achievements tied to this. The most difficult one could possibly reward you with the Masque of Clavicus Vile as a costume piece? Like completing all delves and world bosses with the curse active. That would be fun!

Sentinel

I'm just going to put these here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWFzFsHc75U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6UuRTjkKs

Watch at your discretion. It seems relevant.

TheValkyn

I love your idea and to tie it to Clavicus Vile's shrine is one of the most thoughtful concepts this game would have seen since it's release. The devs are certainly not this creative but you are. Maybe you should think about a change in your career?

Yirarax

I like the idea, but I think there are several problems with this:

1. What stops a group from only giving 1 the buff and then letting this one getting the good loot for the group, while the rest isn't affected by the difficulty increase? Make it groupcentered? Doesn't work, as the same (though without the option of others potentially getting the stuff too) also exists when players are not in the same group. Should these people with the curse now get a different phase from the rest, so only they could play with each other, to avoid exploits with the loot? This solution wouldn't be something ZOS would likely approve ...

2. The time limit would also cause problems. Besides making phasing issues with the solution above (Who goes when where and why the resulting loading screens are bad), it also could make things really frustration. Defeat a boss, time runs out a second before it is dead and you'll lose the bonus. I think it should be more like a mix between werewolf/vampire and a Mundus stone, in a sense that it would be activated like a stone (dialog or touching an altar) and appear as a permanent buff in the status window. To get rid of it, you would need to get to a priest to cleanse the curse. (Maybe even for some gold, to add a goldsink and to make the decision harder)

3. Gold quality. I think there should be some restrictions to that part. Just being able to get gold stuff from any mob in the game? No. (Was written like that, sorry if I misunderstood it. English isn't my first language and I'm not so good at it either) I think though that making it possible to get gold stuff very rarely from worldbosses and ankers would be great, provided it could be made exploit save. (Also, only set items I think, as making it really rare as required would also make players really frustrated to get one without a set bonus.) Though this brings us back to Number one, which I think would require ZOS's input on that matter. Then again, I could be wrong ...

4. While not technically a problem, I think there should or could be some changes to the effects. 100% more gold and better/more rare items are nice, though I think there should also be something regarding motives and the like in there. Maybe drop chance of materials, or little treasure chests (totally made up, though I think they should have a chance at containing some stuff like motives, pages, and other stuff) would be nice. Which, interestingly brings me to a possible solution to the first problem: Just give players with the buff the chance to get these little treasure chests, which could contain all the stuff wanted in it (Purple and/or gold equipment, crafting stuff, costumes, etc.). Then make these things bound and operation under the rule of only being tradeable under the current group trading of bound stuff rules plus only if the player on the receiving end also has the buff applied at the moment of the drop. Or perhaps something else ... btw. this isn't the only concern. I feel like, since this is PvE, and dying only has the armour penalty, maybe a debuff for reviving could be added? I mean, it would make things technically harder, no? Like 1% global stat decrease for every death, maximum at 10% or 15% with a duration of 1h? I don't know if that's a good idea, but it sounds like a good substitute for the fact that PvE can respawn almost always a few meters away and got nothing like soul reservoir going in the overworld.

Doctordarkspawn

deadlychaos1991 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

No reason.

No purpose other than to please a demographic that is that 1% of the playerbase that want difficult content as if this is a singleplayer game.



Why do these people keep making these sorts of demands as if this is a singleplayer game that needs more difficulty? I dont -get it-. Has it never occured to you guys what you want isn't provided by MMO's and thus maybe the genre isn't for you? Dark souls this is not. Dark souls this has never been. Quit asking for it to be.

You are proposing a solution for something that isn't a problem for most if not almost the entirety of the playerbase. If you want to be challenged as an individual, there are plenty of games, single player games, that give you that. Fallout New Vegas hardcore mode. The Dark souls series. Take your pick, but given the ammount of tireless attempts to try and get this game harder that have gone ignored, It's very clear this game will not be one of them.

And I hope it never is.

You obviously have never played ANY actual MMO. Difficult content appeals to end game players who don't want everything handed to them on a silver platter. Eso is tailoring itself to casual scrubs and is turning into a joke of an MMO.

Let's take a look at the staple-mark of ALL MMO's, world of Warcraft. It cyclically creates new content that tailors to all 3 types of players. They have a large new region that has a bunch of casual scrub solo content, usually a new raid with like 4 different difficulties (pick up group, normal, heroic, and mythic, the latter 2 being REALLY challenging and rewarding) and new battlegrounds, arenas and tournaments for all the pvp enthusiasts.

There's a reason WoW is still going VERY strong after 12 years and eso lost almost all its initial followers after 6 months and has to appeal to new customers now.

I've played a few MMO's, and my statements are actually made off the observations I made playing them.

Lets take the pledges as an example. On NA DC, before One Tam, I'm sure the number of runners will get higher once we get access to more experienced dungeon runners it'll likely increase. But until then, every time ICP comes up zone chat is dead. No one is pugging it. No one is doing it. Maz and COS are done regular instead of hardmode style because no one can even -do- the hardmode.

Let me let you in on a little secret as to ESO's original followers. They wanted a different game than I did. With the release of Tamriel unlimited I gave this game another chance to see if the difficulty had gone from "Vet zones need the holy trinity" to "Something manageable". I was one of those people who suffered through a hard game, enjoyed time spent, vanquished the god of schemes...then got the *** kicked out of me by Veteran Glenumbra and ragequit because "HOW ARE THESE JACKHOLES HARDER THAN A GOD!?" Difficulty all day every day wasn't what I wanted then and it's not what I want now. I'm one of the second wave and many of my friends are too. After Tamriel Unlimited launched, the game boomed with some of the most success it's had. Why? Part of it was the subscription drop. Part of it, was the switch in focus from difficult to detailed.

The difficult audience is a fickle audience. The second they have mastered something they leave. It is pointless pandering to a market like that unless you make something so in depth and layered difficulty-wise as dark souls, you will never hold their attention. The reason Warcraft can -Afford- to do it's Mythic raids, is because the people playing WoW were the same people playing it ten years ago.

Comparing ESO to WoW only serves to strengthen my point. People go to WoW because the hard raids is what they want and they dont see another game that does it better. This isn't to say this game does not have difficult content, Maw is pretty much the pinacle and we're likely going to see more in it's vein, but for the most part, dont expect the game to pander to an audience it is -very- hard to keep entertained without losing the -rest- of your audience.

Rex-Umbra

Thraben wrote: »

Hi!

As we all know adventuring in One Tamriel is far too easy for experienced players. As ZOS doesn´t appear to introduce a typical Elder Scrolls difficulty slider, mabe we can have this? While the greater income will be automatically reduced by higher repair costs, the purple and yellow loot is the true incencitive - not because it´s good but because we crafters want to deconstruct it


The Curse of Clavicus Vile

You have wished for great wealth - and now you will suffer for it.

Duration: 60 Minutes
Not active in instances or in Cyrodiil.

Decreases your damage by 50%.
Increases incoming damage by 50%.
Increases your skill costs by 50%.

Increases the money you earn by defeating enemies by 100%.
Increases the chance to get loot of purple or gold quality from defeated enemies.

You can be cursed after praying at a Daedric Shrine of Clavicus Vile.

This would be a ton of fun, though would rather if it's and easy toggle on your character sheet.

tnanever

Thraben wrote: »

Hi!

As we all know adventuring in One Tamriel is far too easy for experienced players. As ZOS doesn´t appear to introduce a typical Elder Scrolls difficulty slider, mabe we can have this? While the greater income will be automatically reduced by higher repair costs, the purple and yellow loot is the true incencitive - not because it´s good but because we crafters want to deconstruct it


The Curse of Clavicus Vile

You have wished for great wealth - and now you will suffer for it.

Duration: 60 Minutes
Not active in instances or in Cyrodiil.

Decreases your damage by 50%.
Increases incoming damage by 50%.
Increases your skill costs by 50%.

Increases the money you earn by defeating enemies by 100%.
Increases the chance to get loot of purple or gold quality from defeated enemies.

You can be cursed after praying at a Daedric Shrine of Clavicus Vile.

Good idea, minus the skill resource cost.

Tannus15

I really like this concept.

I love that this is a way to have better drops on sets which are now only available on "overland". Obviously the de-buffs could be tweaked, but as a concept this is great.

Contraptions

I can picture a whole group of 24 picking up the buff, then steamrolling through public dungeons and world bosses and the like and farming tons of gold tempers in a short time. Not that I would mind, since gold tempers are really expensive now, but some people would find this to be "exploiting".

Again, given the choice between something easy and something difficult, people will always find the easy way out.

Metafae

It's an interesting idea. But I feel that would should be done is that when you pray at this shrine, you are teleported to a different instance of the zone where everything has more health more carefully selected to that enemy, and does more damage also more carefully adjusted. They could also be able to use more unique abilities that would otherwise not happen in the normal instance.

Essentially making something like Stormhaven I and Stormhaven II. Same place, different enemies/toughness. It might even be logical to add repeatable quests in the second instance.

There is clearly more room to make this a better idea. But it'll take a lot of resources to actually do this to the game, and I don't see it happening unless they really run out of ideas for an update.

Stardark

Erasure wrote: »

Because it'd be fun, that's why. Imagine the scene: Hey man, my 4man cleared out some dolmens while Cursed last night, look at all this loot! It was tough, but more than worthwhile; we got 4 hours worth of loot in 2 by being able to handle the challenge.

Risk to reward tweak, eh? It would even be simple to add this, it really only needs one npc (the shrine), a few lines of dialog, and the character status effect.

Always about the reward though isn't it?

I am all for letting you have a better gaming experience, but your reward should be the enjoyment.

Erasure

Stardark wrote: »

Always about the reward though isn't it?

I am all for letting you have a better gaming experience, but your reward should be the enjoyment.

Why not both? I mean, I enjoy solo'ing Wrothgar world bosses, but that doesn't mean I'd try to do that as my main means of obtaining Briarheart pieces. But if they had a loot system that rewarded lower body counts, I'd be all over that. Probably bring 1-3 friends to do it fast enough to avoid crowds moving in. Right now, Trials fits in the 'both' category, as it's difficult content which allows teammates to exchange their reward items, with the hardest modes giving the best items. Seeing that in overland would be pretty sweet.

If you're wanting to find people to share in goal-less multiplayer fun, you might want to try a different genre. I'd suggest shooters, but gear grinding has infected them as well lately. Mario Kart?

Thraben

TheValkyn wrote: »

I love your idea and to tie it to Clavicus Vile's shrine is one of the most thoughtful concepts this game would have seen since it's release. The devs are certainly not this creative but you are. Maybe you should think about a change in your career?

Tx, but you don´t earn enough money as a game designer - unless you own the firm

So, after reading your comments, the skill cost reduction should not come; but wat else can be done?

Even with the aforementioned debuffs, the game would only be as hard as it was a long time ago, in the late Beta.

I feel that going full Azura´s Star and ignoring Champions Points would take away the feeling of progression. And many other alternatives like a "Hardmode zone" aren´t as easy to implement as a simple debuff.