*Remove racial passives / let us choose passives*

altemriel

Mady wrote: »

altemriel wrote: »

choosing a racial passive would totaly denies the idea of racial passives......every race is unique, so this whole tread does not make sense at all!!

It shows (again) that there's a huge gap between races. Almost everybody who plays competitive (PvE OR PvP) would choose redguard or khajiit / altmer or dunmer as their race. Why did ZOS introduce race changes? Because people wanted to change theirs to a better one. So the thread makes sense.

well no, racial passives should be fixed in my opinion, as that is the most important thing that makes each race unique. Instead, better should ZOS buff those races, that the people play the least!!

Mady

altemriel wrote: »

Mady wrote: »

altemriel wrote: »

choosing a racial passive would totaly denies the idea of racial passives......every race is unique, so this whole tread does not make sense at all!!

It shows (again) that there's a huge gap between races. Almost everybody who plays competitive (PvE OR PvP) would choose redguard or khajiit / altmer or dunmer as their race. Why did ZOS introduce race changes? Because people wanted to change theirs to a better one. So the thread makes sense.

well no, racial passives should be fixed in my opinion, as that is the most important thing that makes each race unique. Instead, better should ZOS buff those races, that the people play the least!!

So you see the thread makes sense, regardless of whether my idea is the right solution or not.

Iluvrien

Mojmir wrote: »

Which proves my point,not every nord shouldn't have the same passives. Eliminate the word racial and just make them passives or "talents". This promotes more diversity.

No it doesn't. It does the opposite. Shalidor's ability was a reflection of his active choices, the actions he undertook, not passive abilities that were reflective of his birth.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

You know the whole elves are great with magic is maiming a game thing right? Most Orcs, Nords and Redguard have no magic what so ever. Hell the main story line for AD has The Veiled Queen a HIGH ELF believed to have been without magic. There are books and NPC dialogue in every game since Morrowind about elves with no magic. Be that a throw away line or a plot point.

The way passives are now one race will always be better at something clone gear for each race in every test Orcs will run the fastest, High Elves will always do more damage with a destro staff so on and so forth. Elves with magic tend to take to it faster then human, don't mean humans can't be born with more magic then a elf it's just not as common.

All of the above, if true, is actually an argument for increasing racial passive complexity, not removing it. The situation you have described seems to be that extra abilities, above and beyond standard racials, have been added to certain unique characters.

One question though: How would you keep the proportion of people affected by these superlative mutations to something approaching a realistic figure? You see, I think that as soon as this became a possibility everyone and their dog would be picking something extra.

Iluvrien

InFernalEntity wrote: »

We still have the issue that there are basically 2 races who can stam dps, 2 races that can magicka DPS, 3/4 races that can tank + 1 of these can also DPS (Redguard). Out of 9 races (10 if we include imperial) your options for competitive DPS are 2/9 or 2/10. 20% of the races are optimised for DPS. 30% can tank if you include imperial, if you don't have imperial you have 2 maybe 3 races for tanking.

The racial issue is that builds should be competitive regardless of race. Currently there's nothing in the game that can synergize with poor racials that doesn't also synergize with the better racials so there's nothing to negate the divide between the races.

Racials need to be balanced. But not selected, otherwise people will be taking the exact same 7/8 racials out of the possible 30 to optimize their build.

Emphasis mine. This is the problem, for me. No, builds should not be competitive regardless of race. A part of the character's identity is defined in terms of the race that is selected for them. Some of that is a reflected in the game mechanics.

If your character is truly only interesting to you in terms of the numbers you use to hit/work with other collections of numbers... then why does everyone being the same race matter to you at all? You could have every represented by the pre-load silhouettes, how would that change how you view your build?

This thread seems to be talking about removing racial identity based on the argument that the people who care least about it find it displeasing to be confronted by the logical consequence of everyone "following the meta".

OrphanHelgen

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Im a main orc, I need something positive for looking like that ;D Give me physical penetration instead of 4% melee dmg plox

So you'd prefer 4% Penetration? Nah, I'd rather have the damage.

I never said 4% penetration But could be a flat value, like 2000 or something.

LaiTash

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Actually for those that think they are "loremasters", are you aware the only reason why those races even have "many" of those racials is due to their birthplace? Altmer are raised in a society of mages so naturally they would become skilled Mages where as Nords are raised in a society of warriors so naturally they would become skilled warriors, however If your Nord was born in Summerset Isle he could end up just as skilled with magic as any Altmer.

Dunmer are resistant to fire in the sense that they are used to the heat because they were born in Morrowind which as you would imagine would be very warm and humid.

Nords are only resistant to the cold because they are used to the cold weather of skyrim.

A better idea would be to give every race 1 or two racial passives and the players can choose the other 2.

Well, first of all, mer, men, khajiit and argonian are different species, so it's not their birth place that gives them their traits. Seconds, in our world different rices have slightly different traits as well, independent of their place of birth. Finally, even if you're right, i still beleive MOST nords were not born in Summerset, and if this proposal is accepted and everyone becomes a nord mage it would break immersion.

Still, if you want it so badly, it could be a nice addition to the crown store. You want a nord mage - 1000 crowns and you get altmer passives. As stupid as it sounds, it's a compromise.

InFernalEntity

Iluvrien wrote: »

InFernalEntity wrote: »

We still have the issue that there are basically 2 races who can stam dps, 2 races that can magicka DPS, 3/4 races that can tank + 1 of these can also DPS (Redguard). Out of 9 races (10 if we include imperial) your options for competitive DPS are 2/9 or 2/10. 20% of the races are optimised for DPS. 30% can tank if you include imperial, if you don't have imperial you have 2 maybe 3 races for tanking.

The racial issue is that builds should be competitive regardless of race. Currently there's nothing in the game that can synergize with poor racials that doesn't also synergize with the better racials so there's nothing to negate the divide between the races.

Racials need to be balanced. But not selected, otherwise people will be taking the exact same 7/8 racials out of the possible 30 to optimize their build.

Emphasis mine. This is the problem, for me. No, builds should not be competitive regardless of race. A part of the character's identity is defined in terms of the race that is selected for them. Some of that is a reflected in the game mechanics.

If your character is truly only interesting to you in terms of the numbers you use to hit/work with other collections of numbers... then why does everyone being the same race matter to you at all? You could have every represented by the pre-load silhouettes, how would that change how you view your build?

This thread seems to be talking about removing racial identity based on the argument that the people who care least about it find it displeasing to be confronted by the logical consequence of everyone "following the meta".

I'd like to retaliate by saying for me it's not a case of numbers. It's a case of that people can and will kick you from a group in a trial if you are not the right race/class/set, at least for the harder content.
No one deserves to not be able to enjoy content with random player because of a decision they made at the start of the game picking their favourite race. And sure you can change it if you want to play the game on numbers...but most people just want to pick a race and a playstyle and have it work without being funnelled in to this niche "2/10 races have blatantly evident advantages" system.

I'm not saying all 10 races need to be able to tank, heal and DPS, both with magicka and stamina. I'm saying that all races should be able to pull off 2 of these roles just as well as the 4 most popular races are doing right now.
There are 4 classes, 3 playstyles and 9/10 races + a magicka stamina split. Overall that's roughly 120 different combinations of passives you can have for a build before even getting to the stamina magicka split. And the current racial imbalance has narrowed it down from 120 to about 16/20 optimal race/class combos.

Dunmer,Altmer, Khajiit and Redguard are the 4 races every meta build suggests. For PVP and PVE. Some deem them necessary. And when half the races are dropped from the meta for ANY build, that's a problem.All races should be able to compete in the meta. All races should be competitive in meta. Not all races should be able to compete as DPS, Tank + Healer. However, All races should be able to compete as at least one of these if not two and currently half the races just aren't on the same competitive level. Race shouldn't put you at a disadvantage for every build you can make compared to another character, which currently, for some races is what's happening.

TL;DR There shouldn't be a best race for any one class. There should be genuine choices to make.

Edit: I'd also like to add for the first part of your comment that I still want racial passives to be part of character identity, I just don't want some races being obsolete entirely in the meta because the passives are incredibly imbalanced. There are lore friendly changes that can be made to balance the races more. My suggestion is adding 2 more passives to the characters that are lore friendly and would give more beneficial passives with comparisons to other passives to the weaker races.
Example: Khajiit's carnage could equally be applied to Argonians because shadowscales.
Example 2: Dunmer's Dynamic could be given to Wood Elves because Spinners.
It's not completely impossible to try and buff up some of the weaker races with existing yet relative passives.

TheSeer

Skcarkden

Iluvrien wrote: »

Skcarkden wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

I honestly see no reason why people would be opposed to this, doesn't change the meta at all while allowing for you to choose the race that you like instead of the race that works the best for your build.

Because it breaks lore. That alone is reason enough. The Elder Scrolls doesn't have races just so you can min/max.

Gameplay>lore. Having racials in the single player games made sense because you weren't competing with anybody else, but in an MMO like ESO you are. As an avid fan of the single player games, I'd much rather be able to make my orc a mage without severely gimping myself than to preserve the "sanctity of the lore."

Gameplay IS lore. This whole game cares more about its lore than the fact it's an MMO. Unfortunately, it also skates on thin ice at times to do things like One Tamriel. Flat-out breaking lore though? Never gonna happen. You may not care about the lore, but plenty of others do. This is The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited, not The Elder Scrolls Online: Races Unlimited.

Arguing foregoing the racial traits is lore breaking because previous Elder Scrolls games use them is like arguing immortal guards that can't be killed is lorebreaking because they could always be killed in all previous games.

Come to think of it, the whole multiplayer aspect must be lore breaking then too! Wow, who'd a thought?

I'm not fussed about this suggestion one way or the other, but i find the lore argument on this is a real stretch. "Orcs can't be mages, they are warriors!" "All nords ever use are 2-handers, nothing else, cause lore!"

Except that most of the people in this thread arguing against meaningless races are actually saying the opposite of these highlighted sections. They are saying that is entirely reasonable for an Orc to be a mage, just just won't find it as inherently easy as a Altmer. The same thing goes for the nord example you cited.

I know what most people are saying, I was spouting the racial passives as rhetoric to make a point so it's kind of you to agree orcs can be mages and are thus not strictly limited to just melee combat etc due to racial passives so the set in stone race passives don't need to be set in stone.

There's no harm in it, other than people thinking "oh my gosh, his freedoms are affecting my freedoms! better claim gameplay mechanics are lore!"

dodgehopper_ESO

I'd rather see diminishing returns on racial benefits. This is perhaps the first thing that bothered me about ZoS' choice to remove overcharging in the game.

Artis

Abeille wrote: »

Sure. But change the name and the setting of the game too, so it is not TES anymore.

Of course it is. In TES races were always visual. In the end game every race had the same cap of stats. Now, in this game redguards will have more stamina than bretons, for example, and that difference is not flat, it's %, which is even worse since it stays that way in the end game too.

According to your logic, you need to admit that ESO is not TES.

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Riiiiggghhhtttt. So every stam player can choose.

Max stam 10%.
Crit chance 8%
Stam recovery 10%

Good one.

It is great. NO sarcasm relevant here. If ZOS made passives so unbalanced and can't invent new ones to balance the existing out AND remove soft caps so our choices lost their value and we're *** now - then should give us an opportunity to change the passives. If everyone will pick the same set - well that's a hint for zos that something has to be changed. No reasons to make paying players suffer.

Asardes wrote: »

Magicka builds: Altmer, Dunmer (got buffed), Breton and even Argonian (got buffed)
Stamina builds with burst/sustain: Redguard, Bosmer (got buffed), Khajiit

You mean, Altmer for sorcs and dunmer for everyone else.
And Khajit only and maybe redguard for sustain.

All other races/stats = you lower your dps.

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Gameplay IS lore. This whole game cares more about its lore than the fact it's an MMO. Unfortunately, it also skates on thin ice at times to do things like One Tamriel. Flat-out breaking lore though? Never gonna happen. You may not care about the lore, but plenty of others do. This is The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited, not The Elder Scrolls Online: Races Unlimited.

BS. Races in TES never mattered in endgame. What racials gave you is only a small bonus in the beginning and in the end game all numbers would be the same.

Iluvrien wrote: »

Except that most of the people in this thread arguing against meaningless races are actually saying the opposite of these highlighted sections. They are saying that is entirely reasonable for an Orc to be a mage, just just won't find it as inherently easy as a Altmer. The same thing goes for the nord example you cited.

Exactly. It will be harder to start and take longer to study, but in the end all the numbers were equal in TES games. Here - no, redguard will always have more stamina than breton (it's not even flat difference - it's %)

kargen27 wrote: »

Nah we got it. You want to do some min/max cookie cutter build but look different than everybody else doing that same cookie cutter build.

So, this is a good thing if we have more diversity in races, right? So why not do what he asks?

Ackwalan wrote: »

It wouldn't create more diversity, it would just funnel people into whatever was the 'build' of the month.

It happens already. At least we wouldn't have altmer and khajit only running around. How is that a bad thing?

AshTal

I support this because even after loads of improvements Argonian's still have terrible racial let me pick the ones I want if we can not balance them.

Chairo_Kuma

NoooooOOOOOOOOpppPPE.

TankHealz2015

Mady wrote: »

This would:

• eliminate an 'op' race
• lead to equal races
• add more variety
• improve hybrid builds
• fulfill the 'play how you want and what you want' - promise
• not change the meta
• make Argonians to the master race because....tails....

Make races just a visual thing. Like.... Orcs are ugly....you know.

Rename the passives, so it kinda fits the lore.

Zenimax could still sell race changes, but instead of the race they would let you change your passives.
They would probably sell more of those changes than race changes now.

A long time ago.... a game called "SHADOWBANE" had a similar system of what you describe:

You had X number of points at creation and you could purchase your traits from a list.. strong traits cost more than weaker traits, etc. Left over points were then credited to you character as either training points or stats points.

Very cool that you could pick and choose your character traits... it was really awesome actually.

You could "Spec Build" ...

Abeille

Artis wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Sure. But change the name and the setting of the game too, so it is not TES anymore.

Of course it is. In TES races were always visual. In the end game every race had the same cap of stats. Now, in this game redguards will have more stamina than bretons, for example, and that difference is not flat, it's %, which is even worse since it stays that way in the end game too.

According to your logic, you need to admit that ESO is not TES.

Strawman. You are pretending OP's argument is pro-caps as to pretend mine is against it so you can distort it and refute what you made of it. I never claimed the final cap being different was lore-friendly. Quite the opposite, I am one of the few people in this forum who still insists on putting the soft caps back in place, because that would solve the issue in the most lore-friendly way, unlike what the OP is proposing.

By the way: Nowadays, to introduce the soft caps back to the gsme, the values and the racials would have to be severely tweaked for it to work. I am aware of this. But I think it is worth it.

Artis

Abeille wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Sure. But change the name and the setting of the game too, so it is not TES anymore.

Of course it is. In TES races were always visual. In the end game every race had the same cap of stats. Now, in this game redguards will have more stamina than bretons, for example, and that difference is not flat, it's %, which is even worse since it stays that way in the end game too.

According to your logic, you need to admit that ESO is not TES.

Strawman. You are pretending OP's argument is pro-caps as to pretend mine is against it so you can distort it and refute what you made of it. I never claimed the final cap being different was lore-friendly. Quite the opposite, I am one of the few people in this forum who still insists on putting the soft caps back in place, because that would solve the issue in the most lore-friendly way, unlike what the OP is proposing.

By the way: Nowadays, to introduce the soft caps back to the gsme, the values and the racials would have to be severely tweaked for it to work. I am aware of this. But I think it is worth it.

Ahahah is strawman like a new popular word among hipsters this year? No, it's not strawman. Google what it is. I address exactly what you said, no strawmen here.

Even soft caps mean that some races will reach them faster or will be able to go further beyond them. And, as we all know, that wasn't the case in TES games. All races were equal in the end-game.

That being said, softcaps is better than nothing - that is AT LEAST an attempt to make things the way they should be (race = appearance only in end game), but that won't happen any time soon

ThePaleItalian

Me Orc...me have shield, me hit things with sharp things to kill things...

O and I can make you some exquisite armor

EZgoin76

UMmmm. No. I'll admit I didn't read many of the post in this thread, so I've no idea if this has been said but, all magic users would use the same 3 and all stamina users would use the same 3.

There would be no diversity. Whatever the best 3 is for whichever resource your using is the same as everyone else.

The passive may vary slightly, depending on gear and cp. Probably not by much though.

Abeille

Artis wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Sure. But change the name and the setting of the game too, so it is not TES anymore.

Of course it is. In TES races were always visual. In the end game every race had the same cap of stats. Now, in this game redguards will have more stamina than bretons, for example, and that difference is not flat, it's %, which is even worse since it stays that way in the end game too.

According to your logic, you need to admit that ESO is not TES.

Strawman. You are pretending OP's argument is pro-caps as to pretend mine is against it so you can distort it and refute what you made of it. I never claimed the final cap being different was lore-friendly. Quite the opposite, I am one of the few people in this forum who still insists on putting the soft caps back in place, because that would solve the issue in the most lore-friendly way, unlike what the OP is proposing.

By the way: Nowadays, to introduce the soft caps back to the gsme, the values and the racials would have to be severely tweaked for it to work. I am aware of this. But I think it is worth it.

Ahahah is strawman like a new popular word among hipsters this year? No, it's not strawman. Google what it is. I address exactly what you said, no strawmen here.

Even soft caps mean that some races will reach them faster or will be able to go further beyond them. And, as we all know, that wasn't the case in TES games. All races were equal in the end-game.

That being said, softcaps is better than nothing - that is AT LEAST an attempt to make things the way they should be (race = appearance only in end game), but that won't happen any time soon

It is strawman because you applied what I said to an idea different to the one I was replying to, distorting what I said, therefore not addressing what I actually said at all. It is like if OP said "Vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate", I said "No, it is not" and you quoted me and said "No. Chocolate is NOT better than Strawberry". It wasn't what I was disagreeing with, therefore it didn't address what I said.

To make it clearer if there is still any confusion, what I said is that OP's idea of cherry-picking passives isn't a TES thing. And it isn't. That's completely different from having all races be able to reach cap.

Soft caps mean some races will have a headstart, and yes, that was actually the case in TES games. A headstart, that's all. They won't get to the cap "faster" per se (well, depends on how fast you can get which sets, I guess, depending on the situation in the end), they will get to the cap with a certain setup while other races will get to the cap with a different setup, they all being about the same in the end-game, which is what we both want.

biovitalb16_ESO

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

I honestly see no reason why people would be opposed to this, doesn't change the meta at all while allowing for you to choose the race that you like instead of the race that works the best for your build.

Because it breaks lore. That alone is reason enough. The Elder Scrolls doesn't have races just so you can min/max.

And? Lore has been meaningless in ESO since beta.

WalksonGraves

Hells no, Argonian master race ftw.

newtinmpls

Abeille wrote: »

Although not in the subject of the thread, I will just say that I would like a Cryomancy skill line very much (and incidentally, I do have a Nord Ice Mage).

Ooohhh

I have a "Maomer" sorc who pretty much only uses the flashy lightning "storm" abilities.

I like your idea!

Pangnirtung

As a DK Nord for one of my mains since release I say NO.

Everyone knows that Nords are the most OP race in the game. Give me an amen.

/off sarcasm

newtinmpls

Iluvrien wrote: »

This thread seems to be talking about removing racial identity based on the argument that the people who care least about it find it displeasing to be confronted by the logical consequence of everyone "following the meta".

Wow.... that's the most concise summary of this topic I have ever heard.

EsoRecon

ugh boring

dodgehopper_ESO

Easiest way to solve the problem is have racial bonuses be a flat # not a %. It can scale with cp or level, but beyond that that should be it. The way the numbers are now are too good. They should be like ENCHANTMENT BONUSES, nothing more.

Comrey

From what I've seen in this thread, there is one main argument for each side of the spectrum.
- Those that want racial passives removed want it because some racials are simply better in combat than others, thus binding certain play-styles to certain races for the best combat advantage, and that is not cool. I agree with this.
- Those that want racial passives to stay, want it because racials are an important part of Elder Scrolls lore and help make the races more unique. I also agree with this.

The truth is, while ESO is a very lore heavy MMORPG, it's still an MMO and MMOs require balance when it comes to combat, whether it be PvE or PvP. No matter what, if there are racials with combat bonuses then the most hardcore of the hardcore guilds will require you to have the most optimal ones for your class.If things can be min/maxed, players will min/max.

Thus, my proposition is essentially a compromise between the two main arguments (lore vs combat advantage): Remove all current racials, and make new, lore-friendly ones that have no effect on combat. The idea is to keep every race unique and with their own strengths, but without it impacting combat to the point where some races are better than others. These racial passives you will automatically have from level 1, without the need of putting Skill Points into them.

Here are some lore-friendly non-combat racials I can think of from the top of my head:

Argonian
Amphibian - 50% faster swimming speed.

Imperial
Diplomat - Sold items give 15% more gold. Repairs cost 15% less gold.

Khajiit
Feline Touch - Pickpocket chance increased by 10%. Lockpicking timer 5 seconds longer.

Altmer
Discipline - 20% increased Magicka regen when out of combat.

Bosmer
Swift - 15% increased movement speed out of combat.

Orsimer
Skilled Craftsman - Slightly higher chance of extracting Tempers, Tannins and Resins when deconstructing or processing materials.

Dunmer
Indomitable Will - 10% increased Magicka, Stamina and Health regen when out of combat.

Nord
Mighty - 20% increased Health regen when out of combat.

Redguard
Tireless Body - 20% increased Stamina regen when out of combat.

Breton
Gifted Enchanter - Slightly higher chance of getting better runes when extracting glyphs carving runestones.


Needless to say all of these are examples of lore-friendly racial passives that do not affect combat. Sure, there are some that may, in highly situational circumstances, indirectly impact combat (such as Bosmer reinforcements arriving faster, or Argonians swimming away from danger), but no passives directly impact combat on any meaningful level and thus no race is "overpowered" or "gimped" for any possible class/build combo both in PvE and PvP - all while keeping within the boundaries of lore.

I'd like to see something like this happen.