2-Handed Ultimate Not Bypassing Important Resistances

Recremen

Did a little bit of testing last night, and it seems that the 2-handed ultimate only bypasses armor. Both blocking and flat damage reduction (such as Nord racials or the Major Protection buff) reduce the damage. Damage can also be absorbed with damage shields.

Now I'm not saying that the ult should absorb block protection, damage reduction, or damage shields, but if it doesn't bypass them then it's honestly not that strong of an ultimate. It still seems like it will get outperformed by other available ultimates. Whatever nonsense people are saying about it being overpowered seems to be stemming from a complete lack of actual testing. 150 ultimate for a rather low-damage single-target ultimate seems, frankly, a bit weak. It is possible that it would be nice in certain PvE contexts, but I haven't tested that yet.

And for the record I'm not comparing it to other weapon ultimates, I too feel that Destruction Staff got the short end of the stick and will address that later.

RoyJade

It's also a great defensive ultimate on a pure offensive weapon who only have one downside (defense). With the 8 second anti-CC and the great defense boost, it's perhaps too much.

I'ld like to see the defense stealing part as a morph, and a ultimate refund (not all, but some) as the second morph.

Drummerx04

My main concern with it is the additional ganking potential. Imagine a max weapon damage, empowered, clever alchemist, buffed, instantly refundable ultimate used from stealth on a siege line. Not that the ridiculous stacking set damage for stamina isn't already ridiculous, but this is just another option for stamina to instantly kill people.

Recremen

Drummerx04 wrote: »

My main concern with it is the additional ganking potential. Imagine a max weapon damage, empowered, clever alchemist, buffed, instantly refundable ultimate used from stealth on a siege line. Not that the ridiculous stacking set damage for stamina isn't already ridiculous, but this is just another option for stamina to instantly kill people.

That's something only a Nightblade is likely to get away with if we're talking about ganking, and ZOS has made it abundantly clear that they're fine with Nightblades killing people instantly and in droves. In fact, this is completely underpowered in a Nightblade's hands, if they went Magicka they could just proxy bomb and wipe 20+ instantly.

Recremen

RoyJade wrote: »

It's also a great defensive ultimate on a pure offensive weapon who only have one downside (defense). With the 8 second anti-CC and the great defense boost, it's perhaps too much.

I'ld like to see the defense stealing part as a morph, and a ultimate refund (not all, but some) as the second morph.

It's really not that huge of a defensive boost since it's reliant on you hitting someone with high armor. I'd frankly be 100% fine with getting rid of the defense bonus in exchange for something like a useful amount of damage, or at least actually bypassing some of the more important types of mitigation.

BohnT

This defense bonus should be linked to one morph and the other should refine 25% of the ultimate cost if you kill an enemy. The skill is simply broken as it is now. Incap is not even close to the power of it and most people consider incap as broken. (imo it is fine for most of the time)
If the skill bypasses block or shields its a I-win-button for almost 90% of the time. It takes the opportunity of everyone to negate some amount of damage if you want to and have the resources to do so.

leepalmer95

BohnT wrote: »

This defense bonus should be linked to one morph and the other should refine 25% of the ultimate cost if you kill an enemy. The skill is simply broken as it is now. Incap is not even close to the power of it and most people consider incap as broken. (imo it is fine for most of the time)
If the skill bypasses block or shields its a I-win-button for almost 90% of the time. It takes the opportunity of everyone to negate some amount of damage if you want to and have the resources to do so.

Whats broken on incap is the cheap cost combined with the 2 powerful effect, the high dmg and the cc.

Now the cc needs to go or be changed to how it used to be.

silky_soft

I find it very underwhelming too. It says all mitigation and block is mitigation. I expect it to go through mist form too and it doesn't.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

This defense bonus should be linked to one morph and the other should refine 25% of the ultimate cost if you kill an enemy. The skill is simply broken as it is now. Incap is not even close to the power of it and most people consider incap as broken. (imo it is fine for most of the time)
If the skill bypasses block or shields its a I-win-button for almost 90% of the time. It takes the opportunity of everyone to negate some amount of damage if you want to and have the resources to do so.

Whats broken on incap is the cheap cost combined with the 2 powerful effect, the high dmg and the cc.

Now the cc needs to go or be changed to how it used to be.

Male youke own topic. This is about 2h ultimate.

leepalmer95

silky_soft wrote: »

I find it very underwhelming too. It says all mitigation and block is mitigation. I expect it to go through mist form too and it doesn't.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

This defense bonus should be linked to one morph and the other should refine 25% of the ultimate cost if you kill an enemy. The skill is simply broken as it is now. Incap is not even close to the power of it and most people consider incap as broken. (imo it is fine for most of the time)
If the skill bypasses block or shields its a I-win-button for almost 90% of the time. It takes the opportunity of everyone to negate some amount of damage if you want to and have the resources to do so.

Whats broken on incap is the cheap cost combined with the 2 powerful effect, the high dmg and the cc.

Now the cc needs to go or be changed to how it used to be.

Male youke own topic. This is about 2h ultimate.

The 2h ult was compared to incap, i just carried on from that.

Also, *Make and *your.

Also it's strong enough as it is, nothing that damages, especially a hard hitting ult should go through block? Thats is just a stupid idea.

Shields have 0 armour so yes, it's not going to be useful via anyone who uses that.

No... it should not go through mist form..

It's not going to be one of these ult's people use for everything such as dawnbreaker and incap etc... People are spoiled with them, same with meteor, there is literally no tactical though't into using them most of the time, people just stack damage, hit a person once, ult and then execute.

But some of these new ult's are very situational, the 2h ult is a very good ult, hits hard enough, the fact it ignored armour and adds it to yours is super good. The morph where you can regain you ult back 100% is very good * a bit too good), the other morph where you get free cc immunity is good.

The resource return when combined with a stam dk is great, you can literally just attack and add or a spawning dwemer and use your ult for free sustain, there is even a set that gives like 7k stamina on ult use.

The fact you can gain like 30k armour off tanks is just great as well, you can go from like 15-20% armour dmg reduction to 50% easy for 8s. Combined with imovable morph and you basically because a tank on a full dps character after hitting someone very hard with an ult.

Strider_Roshin

leepalmer95 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

This defense bonus should be linked to one morph and the other should refine 25% of the ultimate cost if you kill an enemy. The skill is simply broken as it is now. Incap is not even close to the power of it and most people consider incap as broken. (imo it is fine for most of the time)
If the skill bypasses block or shields its a I-win-button for almost 90% of the time. It takes the opportunity of everyone to negate some amount of damage if you want to and have the resources to do so.

Whats broken on incap is the cheap cost combined with the 2 powerful effect, the high dmg and the cc.

Now the cc needs to go or be changed to how it used to be.

The ONLY thing I would change about Incap is that bloody CC. I would take anything over the knockdown, and I think it would make everyone happy.

Strider_Roshin

Okay, for one the 2H ultimate is now the hardest hitting single target ultimate in the game. That's okay though, I really don't mind that.

What makes this move OP however, is the fact that you're unkillable for the following 8 seconds AND with a build that's 100% invested into damage, and ganking; you could Ambush to Shadowy Disguise to Onsalaught, and repeat on every enemy you come across; while remaining unkillable throughout the process.

IMO the damage mitigation duration should be reduced 4 seconds, and get rid of the ultimate refund morph, and instead reduce the ultimate's cost from 150 to 125

You need to think about this ability's potential. Because regardless of whether or not you'll reach that potential; many others will.

Recremen

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Okay, for one the 2H ultimate is now the hardest hitting single target ultimate in the game. That's okay though, I really don't mind that.

What makes this move OP however, is the fact that you're unkillable for the following 8 seconds AND with a build that's 100% invested into damage, and ganking; you could Ambush to Shadowy Disguise to Onsalaught, and repeat on every enemy you come across; while remaining unkillable throughout the process.

IMO the damage mitigation duration should be reduced 4 seconds, and get rid of the ultimate refund morph, and instead reduce the ultimate's cost from 150 to 125

You need to think about this ability's potential. Because regardless of whether or not you'll reach that potential; many others will.

I'm pretty sure the bow ultimate hits harder, fyi. What's messed up is that you have other ultimates which are AoE but hit for even harder, like Take Flight. Take flight also costs less, a whole 40 ultimate less. I really don't see the concern with giving Nightblades another tool for their arsenal when they already have ways to kill you easily if they're built right, or you and 19 friends if they're Magicka and built right. To be fair, though, I'd totally settle for not having the mitigation absorption if it would, in turn, actually bypass all mitigation. This looks like it was meant to be a tankkiller, but many tanks are relying on sources of mitigation other than just heavy armor. As such, I think the skill is missing its mark.

BlackMadara

People seem to think that because it's toll tip is lower than other ults, that it is a low damage ulitimate. It bypasses all resistances, it will do more damage than others. The stealing resistances mechanic is silly and overpowered for an offensive ultimate. Lowering the duration would be ok but I'd rather see it replaced with some other effect.

Strider_Roshin

Recremen wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Okay, for one the 2H ultimate is now the hardest hitting single target ultimate in the game. That's okay though, I really don't mind that.

What makes this move OP however, is the fact that you're unkillable for the following 8 seconds AND with a build that's 100% invested into damage, and ganking; you could Ambush to Shadowy Disguise to Onsalaught, and repeat on every enemy you come across; while remaining unkillable throughout the process.

IMO the damage mitigation duration should be reduced 4 seconds, and get rid of the ultimate refund morph, and instead reduce the ultimate's cost from 150 to 125

You need to think about this ability's potential. Because regardless of whether or not you'll reach that potential; many others will.

I'm pretty sure the bow ultimate hits harder, fyi.

I was thinking more along the lines of an instant cast single target ultimate. Sorry, I should have clarified.

Recremen

BlackMadara wrote: »

People seem to think that because it's toll tip is lower than other ults, that it is a low damage ulitimate. It bypasses all resistances, it will do more damage than others. The stealing resistances mechanic is silly and overpowered for an offensive ultimate. Lowering the duration would be ok but I'd rather see it replaced with some other effect.

I'd rather see it replaced with the ability to actually bypass all resistances, including block and flat DR percents. Keep it possible to miss via roll dodge, keep the ability for damage shields to work on it, bam, balanced ult.

Recremen

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Okay, for one the 2H ultimate is now the hardest hitting single target ultimate in the game. That's okay though, I really don't mind that.

What makes this move OP however, is the fact that you're unkillable for the following 8 seconds AND with a build that's 100% invested into damage, and ganking; you could Ambush to Shadowy Disguise to Onsalaught, and repeat on every enemy you come across; while remaining unkillable throughout the process.

IMO the damage mitigation duration should be reduced 4 seconds, and get rid of the ultimate refund morph, and instead reduce the ultimate's cost from 150 to 125

You need to think about this ability's potential. Because regardless of whether or not you'll reach that potential; many others will.

I'm pretty sure the bow ultimate hits harder, fyi.

I was thinking more along the lines of an instant cast single target ultimate. Sorry, I should have clarified.

Ah, fair enough.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

Recremen wrote: »

Did a little bit of testing last night, and it seems that the 2-handed ultimate only bypasses armor. Both blocking and flat damage reduction (such as Nord racials or the Major Protection buff) reduce the damage. Damage can also be absorbed with damage shields.

Now I'm not saying that the ult should absorb block protection, damage reduction, or damage shields, but if it doesn't bypass them then it's honestly not that strong of an ultimate. It still seems like it will get outperformed by other available ultimates. Whatever nonsense people are saying about it being overpowered seems to be stemming from a complete lack of actual testing. 150 ultimate for a rather low-damage single-target ultimate seems, frankly, a bit weak. It is possible that it would be nice in certain PvE contexts, but I haven't tested that yet.

And for the record I'm not comparing it to other weapon ultimates, I too feel that Destruction Staff got the short end of the stick and will address that later.

you cant just disregard 8 seconds of cc AND snare immunity on top of it, cycling this, immovable pot and a single break free you can have massive cc immunity. now dawnbreaker overperforms so much there really isnt any reason to use other stam ults but if was actually brought in line with what its cost should look like, this ult would be very strong.

ya and destro is a sick joke. just a slap in the face, the literal last thing magica needs

leepalmer95

Recremen wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

People seem to think that because it's toll tip is lower than other ults, that it is a low damage ulitimate. It bypasses all resistances, it will do more damage than others. The stealing resistances mechanic is silly and overpowered for an offensive ultimate. Lowering the duration would be ok but I'd rather see it replaced with some other effect.

I'd rather see it replaced with the ability to actually bypass all resistances, including block and flat DR percents. Keep it possible to miss via roll dodge, keep the ability for damage shields to work on it, bam, balanced ult.

Balanced? You want some hard hitting ult to ignore block? To ignore passives/ skills and racials?

Sounds so balanced. Good job you aren't balancing the game.

Recremen

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

People seem to think that because it's toll tip is lower than other ults, that it is a low damage ulitimate. It bypasses all resistances, it will do more damage than others. The stealing resistances mechanic is silly and overpowered for an offensive ultimate. Lowering the duration would be ok but I'd rather see it replaced with some other effect.

I'd rather see it replaced with the ability to actually bypass all resistances, including block and flat DR percents. Keep it possible to miss via roll dodge, keep the ability for damage shields to work on it, bam, balanced ult.

Balanced? You want some hard hitting ult to ignore block? To ignore passives/ skills and racials?

Sounds so balanced. Good job you aren't balancing the game.

It's not a hard-hitting ult, it's a rather weak one when compared to something like Take Flight, which not only hits harder and CCs, but costs less and is an AoE. So yeah, I was expecting something a little more from it. You can still dodge it, unlike other abilities that actually hit hard (and from range) like Soul Assault and Radiant Destruction. In its current form it just doesn't look like a competitive PvP ult.

SanTii.92

Recremen wrote: »

Did a little bit of testing last night, and it seems that the 2-handed ultimate only bypasses armor. Both blocking and flat damage reduction (such as Nord racials or the Major Protection buff) reduce the damage. Damage can also be absorbed with damage shields.

Now I'm not saying that the ult should absorb block protection, damage reduction, or damage shields, but if it doesn't bypass them then it's honestly not that strong of an ultimate. It still seems like it will get outperformed by other available ultimates. Whatever nonsense people are saying about it being overpowered seems to be stemming from a complete lack of actual testing. 150 ultimate for a rather low-damage single-target ultimate seems, frankly, a bit weak. It is possible that it would be nice in certain PvE contexts, but I haven't tested that yet.

And for the record I'm not comparing it to other weapon ultimates, I too feel that Destruction Staff got the short end of the stick and will address that later.

It's not weak, just really niche. And not even close to overpower as some say here. Probably the most well balanced weapon ult. This is my ranking from strongest to weakest.

1) Shield
2) Bow
3) Two handed
4) Dual Wield
5) Destro Staff
6) Resto Staff

Recremen

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Did a little bit of testing last night, and it seems that the 2-handed ultimate only bypasses armor. Both blocking and flat damage reduction (such as Nord racials or the Major Protection buff) reduce the damage. Damage can also be absorbed with damage shields.

Now I'm not saying that the ult should absorb block protection, damage reduction, or damage shields, but if it doesn't bypass them then it's honestly not that strong of an ultimate. It still seems like it will get outperformed by other available ultimates. Whatever nonsense people are saying about it being overpowered seems to be stemming from a complete lack of actual testing. 150 ultimate for a rather low-damage single-target ultimate seems, frankly, a bit weak. It is possible that it would be nice in certain PvE contexts, but I haven't tested that yet.

And for the record I'm not comparing it to other weapon ultimates, I too feel that Destruction Staff got the short end of the stick and will address that later.

It's not weak, just really niche. And not even close to overpower as some say here. Probably the most well balanced weapon ult. This is my ranking from strongest to weakest.

1) Shield
2) Bow
3) Two handed
4) Dual Wield
5) Destro Staff
6) Resto Staff

I'm not totally sure where it's going to be useful in terms of PvP when compared to other ultimates. In a group setting you're going to be better off with an AoE ultimate. In a solo setting you're better off with something that does higher damage for less cost. Neither morph of the ult is especially helpful once you take a look at it. Just from the base ability, stealing resistances is only going to be helpful if you're not at resistance cap, and even then only for 8 seconds. If you're hitting someone in light armor then you're getting next to nothing and are very likely to just be hitting a damage shield while they block. If you're hitting medium you're getting a small boost, but are likely to have the ult either blocked or dodged. If you're fighting heavy armor then they're definitely going to be blocking, but hey at least you hit mitigation cap for 8 seconds, now you have 8 seconds of feeling what it's like to be in heavy armor.

Then there's the morphs. 8 seconds of CC immunity is pretty cool, until you realize that you just spent 150 ultimate for it plus the approximately 3k of damage it's going to do through block. Choice. Or you can refund all of your ultimate if it was the killing blow, which is frankly unlikely unless you got lucky or were fighting a scrub, but you know what else works on scrubs? Literally anything. Or just Executioner/Reverse Slice, which is normally what you'd use to finish someone off anyway.

Don't get me wrong, it's a neat ultimate idea, but if it's only going through mitigation from armor then it's not actually going to do much versus block-tanks, which is basically everyone who bothers to put on heavy armor, which seems like the exact kind of person you're "supposed" to use this ult on.

Takuto

Recremen wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, it's a neat ultimate idea, but if it's only going through mitigation from armor then it's not actually going to do much versus block-tanks, which is basically everyone who bothers to put on heavy armor, which seems like the exact kind of person you're "supposed" to use this ult on.

Personally, I got my hopes up based on the fact that the tanky meta builds are becoming more popular in recent patches. My own testing showed this ultimate hitting no harder than a single wrecking blow on a blocking meta pvp build. I suppose this is because the normal pvp build with 2h is already running a lot of armor penetration, so the ultimate itself isn't reducing that much in addition. You could probably run a nirn sword in place of a sharpened maul, and increase the damage of your ultimate, but then you'd be decreasing the damage of everything else...