Lamia's Song set potentially infinite use?

UltimaJoe777

Just thought I'd bring this up but... Overload = infinite proc at no cost?

Junipus

Could make magicka sorcs easier in vMA

RoyJade

If I remember, you need to use some ult in order to proc the set bonus. So, you need to attack.

hrothbern

No heal in PTS

Hiero_Glyph

I'm pretty sure this was tested and debunked. AFAIK, it has zero interaction with Overload. Now that does not prevent it from being used with the 1H/S ultimate for example.

UltimaJoe777

Ok good to know it doesn't apply. However, it still makes Overload one hell of a healer when you have 1k Ultimate stockpiled lol

hrothbern

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

I'm pretty sure this was tested and debunked. AFAIK, it has zero interaction with Overload. Now that does not prevent it from being used with the 1H/S ultimate for example.

Or with Radial Sweep by a Templar

Hiero_Glyph

hrothbern wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

I'm pretty sure this was tested and debunked. AFAIK, it has zero interaction with Overload. Now that does not prevent it from being used with the 1H/S ultimate for example.

Or with Radial Sweep by a Templar

Yeah, players are already reporting a pretty crazy uptime with the right builds so I could see this set being useful in certain situations. Check out the Witchman's set for solo play though.

Dracane

As I said in another thread: Lamia existed in Beta and some time after and I remember it had a percentage restore back then. 30% health I think and yes, it worked with overload and was removed because of that.

But they changed it now as it seems.

Apherius

Junipus wrote: »

Could make magicka sorcs easier in vMA

It's already easy man xD . you take a liitle Overkill , a shield , and you have enought survive skill .

BRogueNZ

would at least free up a slot on a skill bar perhaps
its not a huge heal battle spirited but it all adds up I guess

Arciris

Tested: zero interaction with overload - of course, sorcs don't need heals, they need to feel awesome

Some sets don't really need cooldowns or have a cooldown that just renders them useless... this is exactly the kind of set that could use somewhere between 8 and 10 secs cooldown, and then there will be no need to forbid overload sorcs to use it if they so wish.

Same applies with the Witchman set: with 2H ultimate full cost refund, any 2Hander will be immortal and never dry on stam.

Sets that refund some resource on ultimate use should have a 10 sec cooldown, just my 2 cents

Hiero_Glyph

Arciris wrote: »

Tested: zero interaction with overload - of course, sorcs don't need heals, they need to feel awesome

Some sets don't really need cooldowns or have a cooldown that just renders them useless... this is exactly the kind of set that could use somewhere between 8 and 10 secs cooldown, and then there will be no need to forbid overload sorcs to use it if they so wish.

Same applies with the Witchman set: with 2H ultimate full cost refund, any 2Hander will be immortal and never dry on stam.

Sets that refund some resource on ultimate use should have a 10 sec cooldown, just my 2 cents

10s cooldown would be more than fair but it still shouldn't activate with Overload since you could just toggle it for a buff.

Another idea was to make it based on the ultimate spent so a 250 ult gives more than a 150 ult. Since Onslaught has no cost if the target dies hopefully this would exclude it as well. If the target survives, I have no issue with gaining the buff since the ult cost was removed.

Eas007

Magplar runnig Dragonset, Bloodspawn and this using Sweep ulti would be too much imo.

Hiero_Glyph

Eas007 wrote: »

Magplar runnig Dragonset, Bloodspawn and this using Sweep ulti would be too much imo.

But where would it actually matter? Btw, Shrouded is much worse.

Arciris

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

Tested: zero interaction with overload - of course, sorcs don't need heals, they need to feel awesome

Some sets don't really need cooldowns or have a cooldown that just renders them useless... this is exactly the kind of set that could use somewhere between 8 and 10 secs cooldown, and then there will be no need to forbid overload sorcs to use it if they so wish.

Same applies with the Witchman set: with 2H ultimate full cost refund, any 2Hander will be immortal and never dry on stam.

Sets that refund some resource on ultimate use should have a 10 sec cooldown, just my 2 cents

10s cooldown would be more than fair but it still shouldn't activate with Overload since you could just toggle it for a buff.

Another idea was to make it based on the ultimate spent so a 250 ult gives more than a 150 ult. Since Onslaught has no cost if the target dies hopefully this would exclude it as well. If the target survives, I have no issue with gaining the buff since the ult cost was removed.

I main a DK now mostly, former Templar... but I think it should be activating with overload as long as ultimate is actually spent (not just activate in that case) afterall, there are cheaper ultis in the game, with a proper build you can have them ready every 10 secs easily. The cooldown can prevent any overload or Onslaught abuse, in my opinion.
As for basing it on Ulti cost, it's a nice idea, kind of a battle Roar for everyone, except it doesn't return all resources so the ratio of the return would need to be adjusted accordingly.

Qyrk

Actually, I thought the same exact thing on this set as it used to be similar set up for Shrouded Armor set before they placed a cool down. i am quite glad it doesn't interact with Overload - either by just activating the bar or using the attack.

BRogueNZ

<delete>

Arciris

Qyrk wrote: »

Actually, I thought the same exact thing on this set as it used to be similar set up for Shrouded Armor set before they placed a cool down. i am quite glad it doesn't interact with Overload - either by just activating the bar or using the attack.

I can't understand the reason behind your statement. Incap Strike - just for example - is cheaper than Overload, and with a NB ulti regen, a sap tank/heal could easily spam this every 10s, if a 10s cooldown was added to those sets.
I really can't see why Sorcs should be left out. If a cooldown was added and the resource return was based on ultimate being depleted rather than activated, Overload is just another ultimate one can choose to use (or not, there are better choices out there)
Personally, I don't like when there's segregation in a game. Having mained a Templar since closed beta, I hated when Bolt Escape had a penalty added (still do). It sets out bad precedents.
So No to segregation: either a set bonus is available to everyone or it should simply be removed from the game entirely.

Draxys

Arciris wrote: »

Qyrk wrote: »

Actually, I thought the same exact thing on this set as it used to be similar set up for Shrouded Armor set before they placed a cool down. i am quite glad it doesn't interact with Overload - either by just activating the bar or using the attack.

I can't understand the reason behind your statement. Incap Strike - just for example - is cheaper than Overload, and with a NB ulti regen, a sap tank/heal could easily spam this every 10s, if a 10s cooldown was added to those sets.
I really can't see why Sorcs should be left out. If a cooldown was added and the resource return was based on ultimate being depleted rather than activated, Overload is just another ultimate one can choose to use (or not, there are better choices out there)
Personally, I don't like when there's segregation in a game. Having mained a Templar since closed beta, I hated when Bolt Escape had a penalty added (still do). It sets out bad precedents.
So No to segregation: either a set bonus is available to everyone or it should simply be removed from the game entirely.

I think you don't get the reasoning because you misunderstood. As I'm sure you know, overload toggles on and off, and it used to proc the previous set that healed you upon using an ultimate- every time you toggled it on. Sets like that don't really work with an ultimate that doesn't cost any ultimate when you turn it on.

Arciris

If ultimate is spent/depleted and with a cooldown added to the set, I don't see an issue with Overload. Overload is what, 80 ultis? Incap Strike is 50. Why a 50 ult is able to proc those sets when a 80 ult is not?
Of course, in their current form, I am glad it doesn't work with Overload. But I'm not glad it works with Onslaught, for example.
With a few adjustments to the mechanics of the proc (i.e: ultimate spent and a cooldown) everyone will be able to wear these sets, using any ultimate = liberty, equality, fraternity for all

Cronopoly

Arciris wrote: »

If ultimate is spent/depleted and with a cooldown added to the set, I don't see an issue with Overload. Overload is what, 80 ultis? Incap Strike is 50. Why a 50 ult is able to proc those sets when a 80 ult is not?

Its that you can toggle Overload on and off like a lightswitch and not deplete anything.

Arciris

Cronopoly wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

If ultimate is spent/depleted and with a cooldown added to the set, I don't see an issue with Overload. Overload is what, 80 ultis? Incap Strike is 50. Why a 50 ult is able to proc those sets when a 80 ult is not?

Its that you can toggle Overload on and off like a lightswitch and not deplete anything.

I am fully aware of that. That is why I boldened out spent/depleted. The mechanics of the proc need to acknowledge when ultimate was spent or not.
Example:
1 - Toggle Overload = set bonus doesn't proc
2 - Light or heavy attack with Overload » ultimate is spent » set bonus procs.
Add a reasonable cooldown to the set bonus proc and Overload is just another ultimate, with a 80 ult cost. Problem solved.

I'm a lot more worried about Whitchman and Onslaught synergy actually.
Those 2 sets need to have their proc mechanism reviewed. Cooldown and acknowledgement of when ultimate was spent. Otherwise they'll be just too OP.

susmitds

Arciris wrote: »

Cronopoly wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

If ultimate is spent/depleted and with a cooldown added to the set, I don't see an issue with Overload. Overload is what, 80 ultis? Incap Strike is 50. Why a 50 ult is able to proc those sets when a 80 ult is not?

Its that you can toggle Overload on and off like a lightswitch and not deplete anything.

I am fully aware of that. That is why I boldened out spent/depleted. The mechanics of the proc need to acknowledge when ultimate was spent or not.
Example:
1 - Toggle Overload = set bonus doesn't proc
2 - Light or heavy attack with Overload » ultimate is spent » set bonus procs.
Add a reasonable cooldown to the set bonus proc and Overload is just another ultimate, with a 80 ult cost. Problem solved.

I'm a lot more worried about Whitchman and Onslaught synergy actually.
Those 2 sets need to have their proc mechanism reviewed. Cooldown and acknowledgement of when ultimate was spent. Otherwise they'll be just too OP.

The thing is that, for Incapacitating Strike, even if you have like 1000 ultimate, you use it once and it will be finished but for Overload, you can just spam Light Attack with 1000 ultimate and keep healing.

For the second point of Onslaught, I agree though.

Arciris

susmitds wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

Cronopoly wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

If ultimate is spent/depleted and with a cooldown added to the set, I don't see an issue with Overload. Overload is what, 80 ultis? Incap Strike is 50. Why a 50 ult is able to proc those sets when a 80 ult is not?

Its that you can toggle Overload on and off like a lightswitch and not deplete anything.

I am fully aware of that. That is why I boldened out spent/depleted. The mechanics of the proc need to acknowledge when ultimate was spent or not.
Example:
1 - Toggle Overload = set bonus doesn't proc
2 - Light or heavy attack with Overload » ultimate is spent » set bonus procs.
Add a reasonable cooldown to the set bonus proc and Overload is just another ultimate, with a 80 ult cost. Problem solved.

I'm a lot more worried about Whitchman and Onslaught synergy actually.
Those 2 sets need to have their proc mechanism reviewed. Cooldown and acknowledgement of when ultimate was spent. Otherwise they'll be just too OP.

The thing is that, for Incapacitating Strike, even if you have like 1000 ultimate, you use it once and it will be finished but for Overload, you can just spam Light Attack with 1000 ultimate and keep healing.

For the second point of Onslaught, I agree though.

Thar's why a cool down is needed.
Say it takes you 10 secs to get full ulti on Incap Strike (use 3 times in a row Invigorating Drain and you have 45 in 9 secs). Now say the cool down is 10 secs. You use Incap, proc the set once, replenish ultimate, use it again and proc the bonus as well. You basically proc it every 10 secs, on cool down. Exactly the same as using Overload.
Of course, all this applies only if the proc mechanism is reworked to function only when ultimate is spent and only every X secs.
It would still be a great set, that anyone could use with any build without "classicist" restrictions.

susmitds

Arciris wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

Cronopoly wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

If ultimate is spent/depleted and with a cooldown added to the set, I don't see an issue with Overload. Overload is what, 80 ultis? Incap Strike is 50. Why a 50 ult is able to proc those sets when a 80 ult is not?

Its that you can toggle Overload on and off like a lightswitch and not deplete anything.

I am fully aware of that. That is why I boldened out spent/depleted. The mechanics of the proc need to acknowledge when ultimate was spent or not.
Example:
1 - Toggle Overload = set bonus doesn't proc
2 - Light or heavy attack with Overload » ultimate is spent » set bonus procs.
Add a reasonable cooldown to the set bonus proc and Overload is just another ultimate, with a 80 ult cost. Problem solved.

I'm a lot more worried about Whitchman and Onslaught synergy actually.
Those 2 sets need to have their proc mechanism reviewed. Cooldown and acknowledgement of when ultimate was spent. Otherwise they'll be just too OP.

The thing is that, for Incapacitating Strike, even if you have like 1000 ultimate, you use it once and it will be finished but for Overload, you can just spam Light Attack with 1000 ultimate and keep healing.

For the second point of Onslaught, I agree though.

Thar's why a cool down is needed.
Say it takes you 10 secs to get full ulti on Incap Strike (use 3 times in a row Invigorating Drain and you have 45 in 9 secs). Now say the cool down is 10 secs. You use Incap, proc the set once, replenish ultimate, use it again and proc the bonus as well. You basically proc it every 10 secs, on cool down. Exactly the same as using Overload.
Of course, all this applies only if the proc mechanism is reworked to function only when ultimate is spent and only every X secs.
It would still be a great set, that anyone could use with any build without "classicist" restrictions.

Technically, I can get Incapacitating Strike every three seconds though.

Arciris

Thank you @susmitds you just helped my point by a lot
Cool down is defenitly needed for both Lamia's Song and Whitcman's or it risks to become too OP.
As well as a proc mechanism review so all ultis can be used with them.

RoyJade

A cooldown would help, but it will kill some potential builds. A scaling on the ultimate spend (exactly like mountain roar) would be better : a overload sorc or incap NB can spam a little group heal, but a heavier ultimate like nova, standard, veil or negate would heal for a large amount.

Hiero_Glyph

So isn't the only answer to make the amount returned by activating the ultimate scale with the ultimate amount consumed? That way Overload returns nothing on activation and only very minor amounts as ultimate is consumed. Likewise, Incap Strike could be spammed but would provide minimal benefit each time.

susmitds

Arciris wrote: »

Thank you @susmitds you just helped my point by a lot
Cool down is defenitly needed for both Lamia's Song and Whitcman's or it risks to become too OP.
As well as a proc mechanism review so all ultis can be used with them.

However that's only on a ultimate regen tank, otherwise on a DPS build, it's still 10 secs.

Arciris

RoyJade wrote: »

A cooldown would help, but it will kill some potential builds. A scaling on the ultimate spend (exactly like mountain roar) would be better : a overload sorc or incap NB can spam a little group heal, but a heavier ultimate like nova, standard, veil or negate would heal for a large amount.

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

So isn't the only answer to make the amount returned by activating the ultimate scale with the ultimate amount consumed? That way Overload returns nothing on activation and only very minor amounts as ultimate is consumed. Likewise, Incap Strike could be spammed but would provide minimal benefit each time.

As a Fifth set bonus, the amounts returned should be really well scaled to make it worth over another Fifth bonus set.
Battle Roar is a class passive, it only costs 2 skill points (or 3) and returns all resources.
But a Fifth set bonus is something huge, to make it worth restoring 1 or 2 resources scaled on the cost of the ulti, the amounts would need to be even higher.
Don't get me wrong, I actually like the idea of a Battle Roar for everyone kind of set but the values should be carefully calculated and we all know how it goes...
Anyway, just for testing purposes, Lamia's could have a cool down and Whitchman's a ultimate cost scaling (or vice-versa).and then we compare the outcomes

But I think we all agree on one thing: the way those 2 sets are now working cannot go Live.