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One small way to help Balance Magicka build with Stamina Builds.
manny254
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So this is just a small change with big effects, but I think it could help balance magicka and stamina.
Make all the melee based weapons light/heavy attacks have the option to scale off magicka, spell damage, spell crit, and spell pen. This could function similarly to how ultimate scales off the highest stat. It could also be an optional passive or a toggle option similar to how you can toggle your role in the group frame (even though this actually does nothing). They could even add a magic looking effect on the weapons similarly to how some of the old trials weapons glow. They could even give each class its own aura for the weapons.
Why? 3 out of 4 of the classes have iconic melee based magicka skills (Sweeps, Whip, Burning Embers, and Concealed). Light attack weaving or heavy attack combos creates a substantial dps difference, and melee based magicka builds suffer in this regard.
I think this could overall be a great benefit to magicka builds in Cyro, and the prominence of the vMA inferno staff would prevent a large difference for end game PVE.
Make all the melee based weapons light/heavy attacks have the option to scale off magicka, spell damage, spell crit, and spell pen. This could function similarly to how ultimate scales off the highest stat. It could also be an optional passive or a toggle option similar to how you can toggle your role in the group frame (even though this actually does nothing). They could even add a magic looking effect on the weapons similarly to how some of the old trials weapons glow. They could even give each class its own aura for the weapons.
Why? 3 out of 4 of the classes have iconic melee based magicka skills (Sweeps, Whip, Burning Embers, and Concealed). Light attack weaving or heavy attack combos creates a substantial dps difference, and melee based magicka builds suffer in this regard.
I think this could overall be a great benefit to magicka builds in Cyro, and the prominence of the vMA inferno staff would prevent a large difference for end game PVE.
- Mojican
15
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Magus✭✭✭✭✭So, to confirm my understanding of this new user story, you would like for using a stamina based weapon like dual wield to scale the light/heavy attack damage off the higher resource pool between magicka and stamina, and higher crit chance % between spell and weapon crit - this starts to get a wonky with some of the weapon skill lines passives but fine shouldn't be an issue, spell pen translating to armor pen for these weapons might be pretty strong - like a substantial DPS increase.
However, this is a reasonable request, it will be added to the backlog. It will rolled out in a later sprint to be tested on PTS to see how well it performs and what sort of DPS increase there is, specifically by stacking spell pen. We wouldn't want to see some crazy heavy attack builds stacking with other mechanics like elegant set bonuses. After thorough testing and review of bug reports, we will then make a determination of whether to roll out this change to production environment or not.
Wait nevermind, I don't work here.Duraeon / Maoh
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manny254✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So, to confirm my understanding of this new user story, you would like for using a stamina based weapon like dual wield to scale the light/heavy attack damage off the higher resource pool between magicka and stamina, and higher crit chance % between spell and weapon crit - this starts to get a wonky with some of the weapon skill lines passives but fine shouldn't be an issue, spell pen translating to armor pen for these weapons might be pretty strong - like a substantial DPS increase.
However, this is a reasonable request, it will be added to the backlog. It will rolled out in a later sprint to be tested on PTS to see how well it performs and what sort of DPS increase there is, specifically by stacking spell pen. We wouldn't want to see some crazy heavy attack builds stacking with other mechanics like elegant set bonuses. After thorough testing and review of bug reports, we will then make a determination of whether to roll out this change to production environment or not.
Wait nevermind, I don't work here.
I don't think the passives themselves should have any change. They are already useful enough as they are. DW gives bonus damage with swords, 1h/shield gives blocking benefits, 2h gives stam regen on kill, and 2h gives bonus damage with a sword. I just think that the actual light/heavy attacks should be improved to provide the option for light/heavy weaving to be more meaningful.- Mojican0 -
Lyrander✭✭✭So this is just a small change with big effects, but I think it could help balance magicka and stamina.
Make all the melee based weapons light/heavy attacks have the option to scale off magicka, spell damage, spell crit, and spell pen. This could function similarly to how ultimate scales off the highest stat. It could also be an optional passive or a toggle option similar to how you can toggle your role in the group frame (even though this actually does nothing). They could even add a magic looking effect on the weapons similarly to how some of the old trials weapons glow. They could even give each class its own aura for the weapons.
Why? 3 out of 4 of the classes have iconic melee based magicka skills (Sweeps, Whip, Burning Embers, and Concealed). Light attack weaving or heavy attack combos creates a substantial dps difference, and melee based magicka builds suffer in this regard.
I think this could overall be a great benefit to magicka builds in Cyro, and the prominence of the vMA inferno staff would prevent a large difference for end game PVE.
yeas!
then my magicka build can maybe hand out 1xk heavy attacks too????
uhm...but wouldnt that be OP, cause i dont even have to be close to the target to do so? (staff using)
on the other hand...i want to smack 15k heavy attacks back at them >.<0 -
Magus✭✭✭✭✭So, to confirm my understanding of this new user story, you would like for using a stamina based weapon like dual wield to scale the light/heavy attack damage off the higher resource pool between magicka and stamina, and higher crit chance % between spell and weapon crit - this starts to get a wonky with some of the weapon skill lines passives but fine shouldn't be an issue, spell pen translating to armor pen for these weapons might be pretty strong - like a substantial DPS increase.
However, this is a reasonable request, it will be added to the backlog. It will rolled out in a later sprint to be tested on PTS to see how well it performs and what sort of DPS increase there is, specifically by stacking spell pen. We wouldn't want to see some crazy heavy attack builds stacking with other mechanics like elegant set bonuses. After thorough testing and review of bug reports, we will then make a determination of whether to roll out this change to production environment or not.
Wait nevermind, I don't work here.
I don't think the passives themselves should have any change. They are already useful enough as they are. DW gives bonus damage with swords, 1h/shield gives blocking benefits, 2h gives stam regen on kill, and 2h gives bonus damage with a sword. I just think that the actual light/heavy attacks should be improved to provide the option for light/heavy weaving to be more meaningful.
Right, I don't see any issues there. Only thing that might get weird results is if it scales the light/heavy attack off of your spell penetration turning it into physical penetration (but I might have misunderstood you), so that you could get some crazy penetration if you stack it the right way and enhance your heavy attacks with CP. Like say you used a 2h maul in light armor in an elegant set with CP to boost damage of heavy attacks.... I mean, if everyone was running around using heavy attacks, it would significantly improve lag and you can't block cast it, so it solves some issues. Can already picture light armor nightblades using bow to gank.Duraeon / Maoh
Former Emperor of Haderus, Trueflame, and Azura's Star
PC/NA0 -
manny254✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So, to confirm my understanding of this new user story, you would like for using a stamina based weapon like dual wield to scale the light/heavy attack damage off the higher resource pool between magicka and stamina, and higher crit chance % between spell and weapon crit - this starts to get a wonky with some of the weapon skill lines passives but fine shouldn't be an issue, spell pen translating to armor pen for these weapons might be pretty strong - like a substantial DPS increase.
However, this is a reasonable request, it will be added to the backlog. It will rolled out in a later sprint to be tested on PTS to see how well it performs and what sort of DPS increase there is, specifically by stacking spell pen. We wouldn't want to see some crazy heavy attack builds stacking with other mechanics like elegant set bonuses. After thorough testing and review of bug reports, we will then make a determination of whether to roll out this change to production environment or not.
Wait nevermind, I don't work here.
I don't think the passives themselves should have any change. They are already useful enough as they are. DW gives bonus damage with swords, 1h/shield gives blocking benefits, 2h gives stam regen on kill, and 2h gives bonus damage with a sword. I just think that the actual light/heavy attacks should be improved to provide the option for light/heavy weaving to be more meaningful.
Right, I don't see any issues there. Only thing that might get weird results is if it scales the light/heavy attack off of your spell penetration turning it into physical penetration (but I might have misunderstood you), so that you could get some crazy penetration if you stack it the right way and enhance your heavy attacks with CP. Like say you used a 2h maul in light armor in an elegant set with CP to boost damage of heavy attacks.... I mean, if everyone was running around using heavy attacks, it would significantly improve lag and you can't block cast it, so it solves some issues. Can already picture light armor nightblades using bow to gank.
I am not exactly sure what you mean, but I intend for it to work like this. So if your magicka stats are higher it scales off the users spell penetration, and is mitigated by the targets spell resistance.
The physical penetration on a maul is an effect of passives in 2h/DW. I do no think the actual passives need to be changed at all. What you said about ganking does not apply either. Attacks that scale off magicka do not get stealth bonus damage. So nothing about bow would benefit a magic build from it for ganking over inferno staff.- Mojican0 -
Magus✭✭✭✭✭So, to confirm my understanding of this new user story, you would like for using a stamina based weapon like dual wield to scale the light/heavy attack damage off the higher resource pool between magicka and stamina, and higher crit chance % between spell and weapon crit - this starts to get a wonky with some of the weapon skill lines passives but fine shouldn't be an issue, spell pen translating to armor pen for these weapons might be pretty strong - like a substantial DPS increase.
However, this is a reasonable request, it will be added to the backlog. It will rolled out in a later sprint to be tested on PTS to see how well it performs and what sort of DPS increase there is, specifically by stacking spell pen. We wouldn't want to see some crazy heavy attack builds stacking with other mechanics like elegant set bonuses. After thorough testing and review of bug reports, we will then make a determination of whether to roll out this change to production environment or not.
Wait nevermind, I don't work here.
I don't think the passives themselves should have any change. They are already useful enough as they are. DW gives bonus damage with swords, 1h/shield gives blocking benefits, 2h gives stam regen on kill, and 2h gives bonus damage with a sword. I just think that the actual light/heavy attacks should be improved to provide the option for light/heavy weaving to be more meaningful.
Right, I don't see any issues there. Only thing that might get weird results is if it scales the light/heavy attack off of your spell penetration turning it into physical penetration (but I might have misunderstood you), so that you could get some crazy penetration if you stack it the right way and enhance your heavy attacks with CP. Like say you used a 2h maul in light armor in an elegant set with CP to boost damage of heavy attacks.... I mean, if everyone was running around using heavy attacks, it would significantly improve lag and you can't block cast it, so it solves some issues. Can already picture light armor nightblades using bow to gank.
I am not exactly sure what you mean, but I intend for it to work like this. So if your magicka stats are higher it scales off the users spell penetration, and is mitigated by the targets spell resistance.
The physical penetration on a maul is an effect of passives in 2h/DW. I do no think the actual passives need to be changed at all. What you said about ganking does not apply either. Attacks that scale off magicka do not get stealth bonus damage. So nothing about bow would benefit a magic build from it for ganking over inferno staff.
I got you then, misunderstood you before. Spell pen to spell resist, that part clears it up for me.
Now (with stam weapons) = stam, WD, weapon crit, phys pen mitigated enemy phys resist
New (if higher stats) = , magicka, SD, spell crit, spell pen against enemy spell resist
Adding that mitigation part of the equation clears up what you meant to me now.Duraeon / Maoh
Former Emperor of Haderus, Trueflame, and Azura's Star
PC/NA0 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This has been on my mind for a while. I think Pelinal's Aptitude was intended to provide this option as Light and Heavy attack damage is more weighted towards Spell/Weapon Damage than abilities are. I tested this set with a DW Magicka build and it was beneficial, but not to the point I felt it was viable. I think if the set also equalized Crit rate and Penetration, it might become favorable.
IMO, there should be Magicka morphs for DW and 1HS or a new magic-based melee weapon line should be introduced.Edited by zyk on August 16, 2016 7:29PM1 -
Manoekin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Slap a new skill line on the UI and call it Conjuring/Conjured Weapon (Conjuring leaves it open for adding other skills in the future). It fits the lore, boom, call it a day and go home.
It's actually ruining my immersion that I can't conjure swords.3 -
Magus✭✭✭✭✭Slap a new skill line on the UI and call it Conjuring/Conjured Weapon (Conjuring leaves it open for adding other skills in the future). It fits the lore, boom, call it a day and go home.
It's actually ruining my immersion that I can't conjure swords.
Try out stamplar and slot morkuldin. You get to conjure your swords and spice up the game for you, since I think you've mostly played magplar. When game starts to get stale, I just hop onto another class or magicka/stamina build.Duraeon / Maoh
Former Emperor of Haderus, Trueflame, and Azura's Star
PC/NA1 -
KenaPKK✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Should have been done from the start.Kena
Former Class Rep
Former Legend GM
Beta player0 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »Or how about nothing because the 2 are already matched.
no they're not. Magicka is way behind stamina. get outta here dude.Invictus3 -
NeillMcAttack✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm sorry, but I find this to be a ridiculous request. If you want balanced dueling then maybe you should level a stam toon. Magicka and stamina are different, and for good reason. Magicka builds are supposed to be more support and stamina are supposed to bring greater DPS.
Look at the spells. Look at the resources they cost. How many control spells cost stamina? Look at how many damage spells stamina, 90%!!!!!? If they both dealt the same damage why in the name of Jebus would you roll stamina when Magicka has the same DPS 'and' massive heals, tons of control, shields etc.PC EU - NoCP PvP, is real PvPTiidehunter Nord StamDK EP PvP MainLegion Commander Tresdin Stamplar DC PvE MainSephirith Altmer MagPlar EP Gondar the Bounty Hunter Khajiit StamBlade DCThe Dirge Redguard StamNecro EP Disruptor Stormcrafter Nord StamSorc ADLone Druid Bosmer Stam Warden EP Necro-Phos Argonian MagBlade AD@ McAttack in gamePlayed since beta, and then on console at release, until the game became unplayable on console.1 -
Wollust✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes please. Should have been done with 1.6 already.
Though I'd add one little thing. Let Sword and Shield gap closer have one magicka and one stam morph. Thinking about the poor magDKs here with no access to a reasonable gap closer.
Susano'o
Zerg Squad1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NeillMcAttack wrote: »I'm sorry, but I find this to be a ridiculous request. If you want balanced dueling then maybe you should level a stam toon. Magicka and stamina are different, and for good reason. Magicka builds are supposed to be more support and stamina are supposed to bring greater DPS.
Look at the spells. Look at the resources they cost. How many control spells cost stamina? Look at how many damage spells stamina, 90%!!!!!? If they both dealt the same damage why in the name of Jebus would you roll stamina when Magicka has the same DPS 'and' massive heals, tons of control, shields etc.
1. Who said magicka builds are supposed to be more supported and stamina are supposed to bring greater DPS? Was it someone from ZoS development? Or are you just imposing your own personal preference and passing it off as ZoS's word on the subject?
2. Exactly what "massive" heals does magicka non-templars get? Dragon's Blood? Have you played since 1.5? Or do you mean slotting the crummy restoration staff, gimping you spellpower by 500, losing an armor set piece bonus, just to access healing ward ... which can potentially wind up healing some PuG who insists on standing under oil instead of you?
3. Since stamina can dodge whenever they want, have no fear of not being able to CC break, can access better and more versatile heals than non magicka templars (while using their weapons of choice), easy access to the best defensive skill in the game (Shuffle), an amazing CP passive (unchained) and can attain higher damage (and burst) than magicka, why in the name of Jebus would anyone roll anything magicka other than a templar? Except for a few diehards, everyone in cyrodiil is either a Templar or stam.9 -
arkansas_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭NeillMcAttack wrote: »I'm sorry, but I find this to be a ridiculous request. If you want balanced dueling then maybe you should level a stam toon. Magicka and stamina are different, and for good reason. Magicka builds are supposed to be more support and stamina are supposed to bring greater DPS.
Look at the spells. Look at the resources they cost. How many control spells cost stamina? Look at how many damage spells stamina, 90%!!!!!? If they both dealt the same damage why in the name of Jebus would you roll stamina when Magicka has the same DPS 'and' massive heals, tons of control, shields etc.
If this is the argument you're going for, then stamina shouldn't have any heals, and magicka shouldn't have any damage. Ergo, remove Vigor and the heal from Rally. That way you'll have to group with magic builds in order to survive
(seriously though, you're on console, I get a feeling you don't understand game mechanics that well)ＦＯＲＵＭＰＬＡＲ
Grand Overlord 25/8/176 -
Ara_Valleria✭✭✭✭✭NeillMcAttack wrote: »I'm sorry, but I find this to be a ridiculous request. If you want balanced dueling then maybe you should level a stam toon. Magicka and stamina are different, and for good reason. Magicka builds are supposed to be more support and stamina are supposed to bring greater DPS.
Look at the spells. Look at the resources they cost. How many control spells cost stamina? Look at how many damage spells stamina, 90%!!!!!? If they both dealt the same damage why in the name of Jebus would you roll stamina when Magicka has the same DPS 'and' massive heals, tons of control, shields etc.
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NeillMcAttack✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »NeillMcAttack wrote: »I'm sorry, but I find this to be a ridiculous request. If you want balanced dueling then maybe you should level a stam toon. Magicka and stamina are different, and for good reason. Magicka builds are supposed to be more support and stamina are supposed to bring greater DPS.
Look at the spells. Look at the resources they cost. How many control spells cost stamina? Look at how many damage spells stamina, 90%!!!!!? If they both dealt the same damage why in the name of Jebus would you roll stamina when Magicka has the same DPS 'and' massive heals, tons of control, shields etc.
1. Who said magicka builds are supposed to be more supported and stamina are supposed to bring greater DPS? Was it someone from ZoS development? Or are you just imposing your own personal preference and passing it off as ZoS's word on the subject?
2. Exactly what "massive" heals does magicka non-templars get? Dragon's Blood? Have you played since 1.5? Or do you mean slotting the crummy restoration staff, gimping you spellpower by 500, losing an armor set piece bonus, just to access healing ward ... which can potentially wind up healing some PuG who insists on standing under oil instead of you?
3. Since stamina can dodge whenever they want, have no fear of not being able to CC break, can access better and more versatile heals than non magicka templars (while using their weapons of choice), easy access to the best defensive skill in the game (Shuffle), an amazing CP passive (unchained) and can attain higher damage (and burst) than magicka, why in the name of Jebus would anyone roll anything magicka other than a templar? Except for a few diehards, everyone in cyrodiil is either a Templar or stam.
Firstly, I have to say, I am genuinely baffled, yet, not completely surprised that so many experienced players see the game as something 'not' designed completely around 'TEAM/GUILD' Fighting.
1. Uhmm! The blatant design!! The spells. Are you honestly saying that stam builds have more utility than mag!!?
2. What's the next best thing to a heal? A damage shield. Perma Invis maybe! No, Tankiness and control!! Or maybe you feel that not only should mag and stam be the exact same.. but all classes too!!! And if you think that your healer should be running dual wield swords and spending all his mag on two person heals for 10% of his mag pool instead of non-stop tick heals and the strongest/cheapest AOE heal in the game something tells me that you may not last as long as most.
3. The balance is not there yet. I'll grant you that. But come on. You can't say that stam can dodge "whenever they want". You also can't say that shuffle is the strongest defensive skill in the game, that is roll dodge! And you know what? I also hate champ points. But regardless, your point here is totally moot because you are talking about how you feel with this particular patch. AND you are clearly talking beyond a team fighting situation. When was the last time you seen 8 Stam builds out sustain a more well rounded team?? If recently, then it's not the fault of mag not having enough DPS, it's actually that the game isn't as balanced around team fighting as it should be. Deny it or not but mag builds are harder to build because they don't have the DPS of stam. More so that they are harder to build because they rely more on reactionary gameplay, utility, control, even resource management. The spells are what tell me that, not some ZOS employee.
If you deny that the spells determine builds and not effective DPS, while that may currently or situationally be the case, then there is no point in me arguing with you lest you try to convince me that all classes or even all builds be able to fulfill all roles equally effectively.PC EU - NoCP PvP, is real PvPTiidehunter Nord StamDK EP PvP MainLegion Commander Tresdin Stamplar DC PvE MainSephirith Altmer MagPlar EP Gondar the Bounty Hunter Khajiit StamBlade DCThe Dirge Redguard StamNecro EP Disruptor Stormcrafter Nord StamSorc ADLone Druid Bosmer Stam Warden EP Necro-Phos Argonian MagBlade AD@ McAttack in gamePlayed since beta, and then on console at release, until the game became unplayable on console.0 -
NeillMcAttack✭✭✭✭✭
✭arkansas_ESO wrote: »NeillMcAttack wrote: »I'm sorry, but I find this to be a ridiculous request. If you want balanced dueling then maybe you should level a stam toon. Magicka and stamina are different, and for good reason. Magicka builds are supposed to be more support and stamina are supposed to bring greater DPS.
Look at the spells. Look at the resources they cost. How many control spells cost stamina? Look at how many damage spells stamina, 90%!!!!!? If they both dealt the same damage why in the name of Jebus would you roll stamina when Magicka has the same DPS 'and' massive heals, tons of control, shields etc.
If this is the argument you're going for, then stamina shouldn't have any heals, and magicka shouldn't have any damage. Ergo, remove Vigor and the heal from Rally. That way you'll have to group with magic builds in order to survive
(seriously though, you're on console, I get a feeling you don't understand game mechanics that well)
You realize that the game isn't just 1v1's in Cyro right!!?
And funny you should say it, because before all the power creep you actually DID have to group with magicka builds to survive. Friggin everywhere! Normal and vet Dungeons. To attain any master weapons (yes, even in cyro). Often even against world bosses.
And you can check my profile. I've been around awhile. But spent most my time playing MOBA's and Destiny (still a massive halo fan) before console release.PC EU - NoCP PvP, is real PvPTiidehunter Nord StamDK EP PvP MainLegion Commander Tresdin Stamplar DC PvE MainSephirith Altmer MagPlar EP Gondar the Bounty Hunter Khajiit StamBlade DCThe Dirge Redguard StamNecro EP Disruptor Stormcrafter Nord StamSorc ADLone Druid Bosmer Stam Warden EP Necro-Phos Argonian MagBlade AD@ McAttack in gamePlayed since beta, and then on console at release, until the game became unplayable on console.0 -
IxSTALKERxI✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭A wild Mojican appears.NA | PC | Aldmeri DominionLaser Eyes AR 26 Arcanist | Stalker V AR 41 Warden | I Stalker I AR 42 NB | Stalkersaurus AR 31 Templar | Stalker Ill AR 31 Sorc | Nigel the Great of BlackwaterFormer Emperor x11 campaign cyclesVenatus Officer | RIP RÁGE | YouTube Channel0 -
arkansas_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭NeillMcAttack wrote: »arkansas_ESO wrote: »NeillMcAttack wrote: »I'm sorry, but I find this to be a ridiculous request. If you want balanced dueling then maybe you should level a stam toon. Magicka and stamina are different, and for good reason. Magicka builds are supposed to be more support and stamina are supposed to bring greater DPS.
Look at the spells. Look at the resources they cost. How many control spells cost stamina? Look at how many damage spells stamina, 90%!!!!!? If they both dealt the same damage why in the name of Jebus would you roll stamina when Magicka has the same DPS 'and' massive heals, tons of control, shields etc.
If this is the argument you're going for, then stamina shouldn't have any heals, and magicka shouldn't have any damage. Ergo, remove Vigor and the heal from Rally. That way you'll have to group with magic builds in order to survive
(seriously though, you're on console, I get a feeling you don't understand game mechanics that well)
You realize that the game isn't just 1v1's in Cyro right!!?
And funny you should say it, because before all the power creep you actually DID have to group with magicka builds to survive. Friggin everywhere! Normal and vet Dungeons. To attain any master weapons (yes, even in cyro). Often even against world bosses.
Aha, so you agree! In which case, let's start balancing the game like Overwatch, where high DPS heroes (Genji, McCree) are entirely reliant on healers to survive (and there's health packs they can pick up, but that's besides the point.) Again, using your logic of "Magicka builds are supposed to be more support and stamina are supposed to bring greater DPS" then stamina's heals will need a harsh nerf (no more Vigor, no more Rally heal, hell, let's go ahead and remove Crit Surge and Major Mending from Stamplar/stam DK while we're at it) in order to balance the game. After all, why bring along a support character with low DPS, when you could bring along a high DPS character that can also support?
...Seriously though, magic shouldn't be pigeonholed into Breath of Life/purge spammers like you want them to be, and stamina shouldn't be reduced to snipe spammers hugging their healers in the middle of a zerg.Edited by arkansas_ESO on August 18, 2016 8:28AMＦＯＲＵＭＰＬＡＲ
Grand Overlord 25/8/171 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭NeillMcAttack wrote: »I'm sorry, but I find this to be a ridiculous request. If you want balanced dueling then maybe you should level a stam toon. Magicka and stamina are different, and for good reason. Magicka builds are supposed to be more support and stamina are supposed to bring greater DPS.
Look at the spells. Look at the resources they cost. How many control spells cost stamina? Look at how many damage spells stamina, 90%!!!!!? If they both dealt the same damage why in the name of Jebus would you roll stamina when Magicka has the same DPS 'and' massive heals, tons of control, shields etc.
Magicka is not supposed to be more supportive and Stamina is not supposed to be more offensive. the only reason one would/should choose between the two is because of the gameplay they offer not because Stamina has broken Damage compared to magicka.Invictus3 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Templars and DKs have no gap closer*, so they can't use a Destro staff like a NB or Sorc. So we are stuck with melee weapons for a working gap closer, and so reduced to lower light/heavy attack damage.
Maybe they could move penetration to axes, and make maces a magickal sourced weapon. Maces have traditionally been identified with magicka knights, paladins, healers etc. Add weapon lines to the sword and board line as well.Edited by Armitas on August 18, 2016 10:25AMRetired.
Nord mDK0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NeillMcAttack wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »NeillMcAttack wrote: »I'm sorry, but I find this to be a ridiculous request. If you want balanced dueling then maybe you should level a stam toon. Magicka and stamina are different, and for good reason. Magicka builds are supposed to be more support and stamina are supposed to bring greater DPS.
Look at the spells. Look at the resources they cost. How many control spells cost stamina? Look at how many damage spells stamina, 90%!!!!!? If they both dealt the same damage why in the name of Jebus would you roll stamina when Magicka has the same DPS 'and' massive heals, tons of control, shields etc.
1. Who said magicka builds are supposed to be more supported and stamina are supposed to bring greater DPS? Was it someone from ZoS development? Or are you just imposing your own personal preference and passing it off as ZoS's word on the subject?
2. Exactly what "massive" heals does magicka non-templars get? Dragon's Blood? Have you played since 1.5? Or do you mean slotting the crummy restoration staff, gimping you spellpower by 500, losing an armor set piece bonus, just to access healing ward ... which can potentially wind up healing some PuG who insists on standing under oil instead of you?
3. Since stamina can dodge whenever they want, have no fear of not being able to CC break, can access better and more versatile heals than non magicka templars (while using their weapons of choice), easy access to the best defensive skill in the game (Shuffle), an amazing CP passive (unchained) and can attain higher damage (and burst) than magicka, why in the name of Jebus would anyone roll anything magicka other than a templar? Except for a few diehards, everyone in cyrodiil is either a Templar or stam.
Firstly, I have to say, I am genuinely baffled, yet, not completely surprised that so many experienced players see the game as something 'not' designed completely around 'TEAM/GUILD' Fighting.
1. Uhmm! The blatant design!! The spells. Are you honestly saying that stam builds have more utility than mag!!?
2. What's the next best thing to a heal? A damage shield. Perma Invis maybe! No, Tankiness and control!! Or maybe you feel that not only should mag and stam be the exact same.. but all classes too!!! And if you think that your healer should be running dual wield swords and spending all his mag on two person heals for 10% of his mag pool instead of non-stop tick heals and the strongest/cheapest AOE heal in the game something tells me that you may not last as long as most.
3. The balance is not there yet. I'll grant you that. But come on. You can't say that stam can dodge "whenever they want". You also can't say that shuffle is the strongest defensive skill in the game, that is roll dodge! And you know what? I also hate champ points. But regardless, your point here is totally moot because you are talking about how you feel with this particular patch. AND you are clearly talking beyond a team fighting situation. When was the last time you seen 8 Stam builds out sustain a more well rounded team?? If recently, then it's not the fault of mag not having enough DPS, it's actually that the game isn't as balanced around team fighting as it should be. Deny it or not but mag builds are harder to build because they don't have the DPS of stam. More so that they are harder to build because they rely more on reactionary gameplay, utility, control, even resource management. The spells are what tell me that, not some ZOS employee.
If you deny that the spells determine builds and not effective DPS, while that may currently or situationally be the case, then there is no point in me arguing with you lest you try to convince me that all classes or even all builds be able to fulfill all roles equally effectively.
1. So, yes, nobody at ZoS said it. It's you imposing your own preference. You ignore that Stam has the actual utility raid leaders want. I have been asked to slot Circle of Protection, Rapid Manuevers, Caltrops, etc. many times. One look at the Trapping Webs skill (once a magicka skill, since changed to a stamina movement inhibiting / fearing utility spell) reveals your claim is just totally made up and nonsense.
2. Bone shield is the same duration and strength shield as my blazing shield and igneous shield. Actually, wait, it's better because it has an amazing synergy for group members. Oh, look at that, a stamina skill that has (useful) utility for the group. Tankiness and control? Rally+vigor+shuffle+dodge+bombard+caltrops. Oh, and a little piece of advice from someone who has healed once or twice. Healers don't use two swords. They use a shield because they get targeted and have to survive. Also halfway decent players move unlike PvE raid bosses.
3. OK, you're right, shuffle isn't the strongest skill in the game, roll dodge (which is not a skill by the way) is. Only stam users need apply for either. This patch is precisely what's under discussion and what is relevant. I care about how the game is actually being played, not what it was or what you think it ought to be, and that means right now, this patch. I don't agree that magicka relies more on "reactionary gameplay" (if anything, I would argue stamina play does since their offense is typically close quarters and dodge requires precise timing), this is just more of your opinion that you are passing off as ESO fact.
Nobody here (at least I don't think and am certainly not) is arguing for homogenization, which you keep bringing up as a strawman. Most people here rightly recognize that balance is askew and are trying to communicate that to @Wrobel and Zos.
You claimed the OP has a "ridiculous" request, citing only your made up facts of what ESO is. In case you haven't heard it, the devs kind of like the idea of "Play as you want," and that has been cited as a reason for balance (see for example, @Wrobel's comments on the lastest block, heavy armor changes so as to open ESO tanking to more builds). It would be one thing if your made up facts corresponded to how ESO was actually played and designed, but they do not.0 -
Aenlir✭✭✭This is a good idea, another is to look at certain sets that are overperforming.
Black rose
Velidreth
Viper
Reactive
Malubeth (still)
also revisit balance between heavy, light and medium. Possibly buffing light.
Also...FIX DRAGONBLOOD FFS3 -
GloryClass RepresentativeThis would make certain builds that are magicka but melee have an effective way to weave attacks. As it is, stamina melee are able to put out better weaves simply due to the scaling (also includes bash...). I think to be fair they should just make all light attacks scale off of whatever is highest (if you want to use a resto staff on a stamina build? Fine!).This is a good idea, another is to look at certain sets that are overperforming.
Black rose
Velidreth
Viper
Reactive
Malubeth (still)
also revisit balance between heavy, light and medium. Possibly buffing light.
Also...FIX DRAGONBLOOD FFS
I agree with this guy, dragonblood is far too good, fix it and make it be double affected by Battle Spirit! Good suggestion Aenlir.NeillMcAttack wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »NeillMcAttack wrote: »I'm sorry, but I find this to be a ridiculous request. If you want balanced dueling then maybe you should level a stam toon. Magicka and stamina are different, and for good reason. Magicka builds are supposed to be more support and stamina are supposed to bring greater DPS.
Look at the spells. Look at the resources they cost. How many control spells cost stamina? Look at how many damage spells stamina, 90%!!!!!? If they both dealt the same damage why in the name of Jebus would you roll stamina when Magicka has the same DPS 'and' massive heals, tons of control, shields etc.
1. Who said magicka builds are supposed to be more supported and stamina are supposed to bring greater DPS? Was it someone from ZoS development? Or are you just imposing your own personal preference and passing it off as ZoS's word on the subject?
2. Exactly what "massive" heals does magicka non-templars get? Dragon's Blood? Have you played since 1.5? Or do you mean slotting the crummy restoration staff, gimping you spellpower by 500, losing an armor set piece bonus, just to access healing ward ... which can potentially wind up healing some PuG who insists on standing under oil instead of you?
3. Since stamina can dodge whenever they want, have no fear of not being able to CC break, can access better and more versatile heals than non magicka templars (while using their weapons of choice), easy access to the best defensive skill in the game (Shuffle), an amazing CP passive (unchained) and can attain higher damage (and burst) than magicka, why in the name of Jebus would anyone roll anything magicka other than a templar? Except for a few diehards, everyone in cyrodiil is either a Templar or stam.
Firstly, I have to say, I am genuinely baffled, yet, not completely surprised that so many experienced players see the game as something 'not' designed completely around 'TEAM/GUILD' Fighting.
1. Uhmm! The blatant design!! The spells. Are you honestly saying that stam builds have more utility than mag!!?
2. What's the next best thing to a heal? A damage shield. Perma Invis maybe! No, Tankiness and control!! Or maybe you feel that not only should mag and stam be the exact same.. but all classes too!!! And if you think that your healer should be running dual wield swords and spending all his mag on two person heals for 10% of his mag pool instead of non-stop tick heals and the strongest/cheapest AOE heal in the game something tells me that you may not last as long as most.
3. The balance is not there yet. I'll grant you that. But come on. You can't say that stam can dodge "whenever they want". You also can't say that shuffle is the strongest defensive skill in the game, that is roll dodge! And you know what? I also hate champ points. But regardless, your point here is totally moot because you are talking about how you feel with this particular patch. AND you are clearly talking beyond a team fighting situation. When was the last time you seen 8 Stam builds out sustain a more well rounded team?? If recently, then it's not the fault of mag not having enough DPS, it's actually that the game isn't as balanced around team fighting as it should be. Deny it or not but mag builds are harder to build because they don't have the DPS of stam. More so that they are harder to build because they rely more on reactionary gameplay, utility, control, even resource management. The spells are what tell me that, not some ZOS employee.
If you deny that the spells determine builds and not effective DPS, while that may currently or situationally be the case, then there is no point in me arguing with you lest you try to convince me that all classes or even all builds be able to fulfill all roles equally effectively.
I would argue with you, but you made such weak arguments I don't think it's worth my time.
mDK will rise again.
Rebuild Necromancer pet AI.
@Glorious since I have too many characters to list
Ádamant
Strongly against Faction Lock1
