PVP Imbalance Discussion - Magicka vs Stamina Resource Pools

Cronopoly

I wrote a version of this in another thread specific to Sorcs but it applies to all Magicka classes in PVP:

Prior to Dark Brotherhood the too powerful Shield Stacking that was used hid an underlying major problem. The imbalance of resource pools in PVP.

Magicka Classes don't have the Stamina pool to really do well in a core combat PVP requirement (Dodge, CC break, Sprint), and if a Magicka player buffs their Stamina resource pool to support these, its at the expense of their Magicka pool and they lose "precious" damage.

Stamina toons can rely on simply just 1 main resource pool and not get bogged down micromanaging resources:
Damage
Dodge
CC break
Sprint
Heal

"Most" Magicka toons typically spec just in 1 main pool supporting their damage and healing abilities, and this leaves them highly free AP in open world PVP.
Damage
Heal
CCbreak- highly limited
Sprint - highly limited
Dodge - highly limited

Prior to Dark Brotherhood, with 2 or 3 shields, many average to good Sorcs definitely lived longer in close combat than they should have, and this was rightfully frustrating to many a Stamina toon trying to Wrecking Blow a Sorc etc who could not be damaged with Stacking Shields.

Now:
With Shields basically gutted in duration, it's not worth it to cast more than 1 most times. One went from a Sorc who could prior get hit on for 3 - 7 seconds in close combat or ranged without refreshing shields, to today having no choice but to refresh Shield & Heal constantly with paper armor when under Tactical Pressure otherwise you'll be 1 or 2 shot.

Stamina toons love not having to micromanage and can apply Tactical Pressure with little worries. At 28m Dodge roll, (2 seconds 100% immunity, what's not to love), Gap Close, CC/WB spam...they don't have to let up the Tactical Pressure and good PVP'ers know this. If you go full defensive first typically you die.

A normal Sorc trying to apply Tactical Pressure has some issues to come to grips with. They have no spammable class DD ability, and most if not all skills are dodgeable. Once they CC break, Dodge, or sprint to reposition they are free again AP. Many lead with a streak into enemies, which they break easily, and since they now have CC immunity, it's on. Gap close rinse repeat.

Some have been trying Lightning staff builds to use the Heavy attack. Looks great on paper, but Vigor can just tick right on beside it...Burst seems lacking in practice in PVP. For a Sorc many times, a procced Crystal Frag is coming home to mama as its reflected. Negate bot indeed. Streak was good at one time, but now it's just waiting to be gap closed as you get rooted at the end for 1 second. Mines...good melee players have long since adjusted to Mines, and easily rotate around them or just eat one.

Oh and Pets...

In summary there's some room for further discussion...

Specific for Sorcs PVP "required" skills imbalance (CCbreak, Hard Dodge, Sprint) are the problem and were highly masked by stacking shields. Now that this is clearly exposed, some middle ground is desired...

I have mained my Sorc for some time hence feel I can talk to this moreso than other Magicka classes. Mag Templar seems likely exempt for obvious non-dieing, hard for them to complain about anything lol. They rarely die unless seriously focused. I'm sure Magicka DK's, and Nightblades share some of these vulnerabilities in PVP.

Dracane

Single shields need to get buffed as defensive mechanics, they are too weak.
Magicka users, now mainly speaking of Sorcerers, can't dodge if they want to be able to break CC.
They wear light armor, so they are one shots when they are unportected.

Shields are not like block, dodge, reflects and even heals.
You must take all CCs, all damage. Block makes you immune to almost all CCs, dodge roll even totally negates as good as all CCs and damage and heals truly keep you alive, while shields only are a virtual health, not actual health.

Single shields are the worst defensive mechanic in the game. You get punished for using single shields, you must shieldstack to be able to survive and then ? You spend all your time spamming shields and the next CC will still kill you.
Tell me @ZoS : Is that the way it was intended ? You wanted to reduce shieldstacking. Yet with each patch/nerf, you just make it so, that people are forced even more into it.

Remove shieldstacking already. No critable shields or all this non sense, just disable shieldstacking and buff single shields.
Or simply remove the 50% shield debuff from battle spirit after disabling shieldstacking.

psychotic13

The new amberplasm set could be a big help to sorcs, we'll have to see though.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Just curious, have you ever played a stam build in pvp? From my personal experience my magplar and magblade are currently both easier to play than my stamplar and stamblade. Not sure about the other classes though since my stam sorc is only lvl 10 and my mag dk hasn't been to pvp for ages.

Omgwtfbbq321

As a magicka sorc for over 3k hours, I can survive in pvp. But surviving is about all I so in most CP-501 encounters.

Most of the problem seems to stem from the fact the meta appears to be "everyone run a stam buuld and Shuffle/Dodge roll about".

Being a magicka sorc, very few useful abilities I have access to hit these targets. C-Shards, ForceShock, MagesFury, (most) light and heavy attacks, Overload, and DestructiveTouch all are likely to miss due to dodgeRoll or DodgeChance.

Making matters worse, it is far more effective to open on me with Skill->Dawnbreaker-> Execute, than it is for me to try to time the obvious Cruse->Shard->Comet (All of which have warning time before impact).

Shield changes did nothing but force me to make use of the now "covers all" Annulment and ShieldStack. The shield time change really only makes ganking a sorc easier, as fighting normally means casting much more frequently than 6 seconds.

I belive in having at least 1300 stam recovery to endlessly break, but if I could throw that into magicka recovery and use that to break/roll/block/run, id do it in a heart beat.

I also have a magicka Templar. It feels like he can do anything my sorc can do, but better.

I don't feel like stamina needs to be changed, but I would prefer some class skills that were a little more "surpise" than "He cursed me...better block the incoming Shard".

thankyourat

Yea I main a magblade and it's a lot harder to play than my stamblade, but it's much more fun and rewarding. Stamina has too much going for it right now. More mobility, more damage, better armor, better heals. I'm fine with stamina having more mobility but I think magic classes should have better dps than stamina classes to help balance out the game. That way each spec will have to give up something. Stamina classes will give up some burst to have more mobility and survivability while magicka classes will give up mobility for more damage. Another thing is shuffle is just too good it needs to be changed to just snare immunity and snare removal no need for extra dodge chance. Light armor also doesn't protect you from anything you might as well be naked in cyrodiil.

Dracane

Omgwtfbbq321 wrote: »

As a magicka sorc for over 3k hours, I can survive in pvp. But surviving is about all I so in most CP-501 encounters.

Most of the problem seems to stem from the fact the meta appears to be "everyone run a stam buuld and Shuffle/Dodge roll about".

Being a magicka sorc, very few useful abilities I have access to hit these targets. C-Shards, ForceShock, MagesFury, (most) light and heavy attacks, Overload, and DestructiveTouch all are likely to miss due to dodgeRoll or DodgeChance.

Making matters worse, it is far more effective to open on me with Skill->Dawnbreaker-> Execute, than it is for me to try to time the obvious Cruse->Shard->Comet (All of which have warning time before impact).

Shield changes did nothing but force me to make use of the now "covers all" Annulment and ShieldStack. The shield time change really only makes ganking a sorc easier, as fighting normally means casting much more frequently than 6 seconds.

I belive in having at least 1300 stam recovery to endlessly break, but if I could throw that into magicka recovery and use that to break/roll/block/run, id do it in a heart beat.

I also have a magicka Templar. It feels like he can do anything my sorc can do, but better.

I don't feel like stamina needs to be changed, but I would prefer some class skills that were a little more "surpise" than "He cursed me...better block the incoming Shard".

Well said. Sorcerer is supposed to be bursty. Yet it's the most predictable class and even if our "burst" combo works in 100 years, it still doesn't kill anyone. Compared to nightblades, who have 100% unpredictable burst. Hell even dragon jump WB combo is less predictable.

I think, Sorcerer has hard times killing anyone with their available abilities. 2 classes totally hardcounter Sorcerer: DK with scales and Templar with purge. I don't see, how some people can call the current state of Sorcs in pvp "fine" or even say, pvp is their main strenght. When I look at what is available, I say that PvP is hell for Sorcerers.

thankyourat

Dracane wrote: »

Omgwtfbbq321 wrote: »

As a magicka sorc for over 3k hours, I can survive in pvp. But surviving is about all I so in most CP-501 encounters.

Most of the problem seems to stem from the fact the meta appears to be "everyone run a stam buuld and Shuffle/Dodge roll about".

Being a magicka sorc, very few useful abilities I have access to hit these targets. C-Shards, ForceShock, MagesFury, (most) light and heavy attacks, Overload, and DestructiveTouch all are likely to miss due to dodgeRoll or DodgeChance.

Making matters worse, it is far more effective to open on me with Skill->Dawnbreaker-> Execute, than it is for me to try to time the obvious Cruse->Shard->Comet (All of which have warning time before impact).

Shield changes did nothing but force me to make use of the now "covers all" Annulment and ShieldStack. The shield time change really only makes ganking a sorc easier, as fighting normally means casting much more frequently than 6 seconds.

I belive in having at least 1300 stam recovery to endlessly break, but if I could throw that into magicka recovery and use that to break/roll/block/run, id do it in a heart beat.

I also have a magicka Templar. It feels like he can do anything my sorc can do, but better.

I don't feel like stamina needs to be changed, but I would prefer some class skills that were a little more "surpise" than "He cursed me...better block the incoming Shard".

Well said. Sorcerer is supposed to be bursty. Yet it's the most predictable class and even if our "burst" combo works in 100 years, it still doesn't kill anyone. Compared to nightblades, who have 100% unpredictable burst. Hell even dragon jump WB combo is less predictable.

I think, Sorcerer has hard times killing anyone with their available abilities. 2 classes totally hardcounter Sorcerer: DK with scales and Templar with purge. I don't see, how some people can call the current state of Sorcs in pvp "fine" or even say, pvp is their main strenght. When I look at what is available, I say that PvP is hell for Sorcerers.

I think when people say sorcs are fine they are saying it in regard to the other magicka classes. Sorcs aren't fine but they are better than the other three magicka classes at the moment. Especially magplar and mag dk (I'm only speaking from a solo PvP perspective) a lot of people think magplar is really strong but it's struggling alot as well for 1vX it just doesn't have the burst. I can stand in a magplars jabs and not even worry about dying I can just heal through it lol.

psychotic13

Dracane wrote: »

Omgwtfbbq321 wrote: »

As a magicka sorc for over 3k hours, I can survive in pvp. But surviving is about all I so in most CP-501 encounters.

Most of the problem seems to stem from the fact the meta appears to be "everyone run a stam buuld and Shuffle/Dodge roll about".

Being a magicka sorc, very few useful abilities I have access to hit these targets. C-Shards, ForceShock, MagesFury, (most) light and heavy attacks, Overload, and DestructiveTouch all are likely to miss due to dodgeRoll or DodgeChance.

Making matters worse, it is far more effective to open on me with Skill->Dawnbreaker-> Execute, than it is for me to try to time the obvious Cruse->Shard->Comet (All of which have warning time before impact).

Shield changes did nothing but force me to make use of the now "covers all" Annulment and ShieldStack. The shield time change really only makes ganking a sorc easier, as fighting normally means casting much more frequently than 6 seconds.

I belive in having at least 1300 stam recovery to endlessly break, but if I could throw that into magicka recovery and use that to break/roll/block/run, id do it in a heart beat.

I also have a magicka Templar. It feels like he can do anything my sorc can do, but better.

I don't feel like stamina needs to be changed, but I would prefer some class skills that were a little more "surpise" than "He cursed me...better block the incoming Shard".

Well said. Sorcerer is supposed to be bursty. Yet it's the most predictable class and even if our "burst" combo works in 100 years, it still doesn't kill anyone. Compared to nightblades, who have 100% unpredictable burst. Hell even dragon jump WB combo is less predictable.

I think, Sorcerer has hard times killing anyone with their available abilities. 2 classes totally hardcounter Sorcerer: DK with scales and Templar with purge. I don't see, how some people can call the current state of Sorcs in pvp "fine" or even say, pvp is their main strenght. When I look at what is available, I say that PvP is hell for Sorcerers.

I agree that a sorc is pretty predictable, but I can still easily kill people. I don't think the Templar purge is a problem for us really, DKs and flappy wings though, yeah that's annoying as hell, since that totally negates the pressure we have to keep up to stand a chance, and were left to resto/lightning staff them with curse and I don't run resto or lightning staff so it's even more annoying!

Sorcs can be made on par with 2 changes, and no leave the shields they're fine. We need a DoT that sticks to the enemy to provide us with some extra healing from surge, and dark exchange needs to loose the cast time, or make it scale or something.

xericdx

I think that the point of this thread is not about sorcs (there are other posts on this). Also, we all know that you will always find good sorc/bad sorc/good NB/Bad NB, etc. (personally I think the imbalance is not that bad in ESO)

It's about the general (in)balance between Stamina and Magicka-based pools in PvP.

I have a MagSorc and I enjoy it.

However, I can feel this imbalance on my other char (Stamina DK).

I like both but feel like I have much more options available on my Stam for self-defense while also keeping the pressure on the opponent. It's more fun, it's easier, it's more effective.

The only reason I can see for this is that my Stam char (as many others) has to be in close combat to be effective and for that I do understand the need for some more love. However, I do not feel that it is not balanced correctly at the moment.

Dracane

psychotic13 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Omgwtfbbq321 wrote: »

As a magicka sorc for over 3k hours, I can survive in pvp. But surviving is about all I so in most CP-501 encounters.

Most of the problem seems to stem from the fact the meta appears to be "everyone run a stam buuld and Shuffle/Dodge roll about".

Being a magicka sorc, very few useful abilities I have access to hit these targets. C-Shards, ForceShock, MagesFury, (most) light and heavy attacks, Overload, and DestructiveTouch all are likely to miss due to dodgeRoll or DodgeChance.

Making matters worse, it is far more effective to open on me with Skill->Dawnbreaker-> Execute, than it is for me to try to time the obvious Cruse->Shard->Comet (All of which have warning time before impact).

Shield changes did nothing but force me to make use of the now "covers all" Annulment and ShieldStack. The shield time change really only makes ganking a sorc easier, as fighting normally means casting much more frequently than 6 seconds.

I belive in having at least 1300 stam recovery to endlessly break, but if I could throw that into magicka recovery and use that to break/roll/block/run, id do it in a heart beat.

I also have a magicka Templar. It feels like he can do anything my sorc can do, but better.

I don't feel like stamina needs to be changed, but I would prefer some class skills that were a little more "surpise" than "He cursed me...better block the incoming Shard".

Well said. Sorcerer is supposed to be bursty. Yet it's the most predictable class and even if our "burst" combo works in 100 years, it still doesn't kill anyone. Compared to nightblades, who have 100% unpredictable burst. Hell even dragon jump WB combo is less predictable.

I think, Sorcerer has hard times killing anyone with their available abilities. 2 classes totally hardcounter Sorcerer: DK with scales and Templar with purge. I don't see, how some people can call the current state of Sorcs in pvp "fine" or even say, pvp is their main strenght. When I look at what is available, I say that PvP is hell for Sorcerers.

I agree that a sorc is pretty predictable, but I can still easily kill people. I don't think the Templar purge is a problem for us really, DKs and flappy wings though, yeah that's annoying as hell, since that totally negates the pressure we have to keep up to stand a chance, and were left to resto/lightning staff them with curse and I don't run resto or lightning staff so it's even more annoying!

Sorcs can be made on par with 2 changes, and no leave the shields they're fine. We need a DoT that sticks to the enemy to provide us with some extra healing from surge, and dark exchange needs to loose the cast time, or make it scale or something.

Purge removes daedric curse, Sorcerers can barely kill without curse. I think that Purge is just as evil as wings .

Regarding the dot problem. I wish, in addition to exploding, daedric curse would also deal reasonable dot damage in the meantime. Dark Exchange should not only restore ressources on cast, but also a few ressources over the next few seconds and the cast time needs to go obviously. But I don't think that a dot and dark exchange are the things that safe this class.

GrigorijMalahevich

If I have time to CC break and then go defensive - in 1x1 situation I will not die, but apply 2 shields, defensive rune and instantly go on offensive with streak and then curse + frag and frag again if there is an opportunity.

For my 5 cents, people need to learn how to play better. Nobody can apply pressure on a magicka sorc for a long time or you are just bad, sorry.

Tactical pressure can be turned around with streak.

I do agree that this shield change has created a stupid mechanic, but I disagree on the result of it, as I think it actually improved Sorcs defensive abilities against bursts, just for a very short time and it requires a lot of micromanagement.

I personally changed to lightning staff and love it, though I think implosion or whatever it is called, should get buffed regarding the percentage (6% chance on 15% health is just stupid, I am better of using any other skill and not play this random).

For another my 5 cent, Light armor should have the biggest damage output it is just common sense, I can't believe that it is not the case at the moment... Magicka reduction/magicka regen/ spell penetration / crit chance and definitely bigger damage buff with 5 item set than Medium or Heavy or it should have the same defense rating as at least medium, because that is fair and that is common sense.

I don't feel that Magicka Sorc has become more difficult to play, but fighting DK's in heavy armor is just pain and I usually just ignore people in heavy armor and move along, they can't do anything to me anyway.

P.S. OP should read your text twice, a lot of your arguments are just irrelevant.
"Prior to Dark Brotherhood, with 2 or 3 shields, many average to good Sorcs definitely lived longer in close combat than they should have, and this was rightfully frustrating to many a Stamina toon trying to Wrecking Blow a Sorc etc who could not be damaged with Stacking Shields."

against wrecking blow you used to have only 1 shield... for healing ward to be effective you had to cast it on top of lost health, so it is irrelevant, you just proved the point that sorcs got buffed.

Cronopoly

I'm definitely not calling for discussion of any Nerf for Stamina classes, as They are ok in my opinion, or a hell of a lot better off in PVP. I feel like an energizer battery when playing them in PVP. I just want to compete.

On my Stamina toons I typically get killed from being out of position, outplayed, or outmanned, but NEVER an empty Stamina resource pool preventing me from CCBreaking, Dodging, or sprinting. So that begs the question, is it viable to go Hybrid just to try to survive? And is that the adjustment we should be making?

Thinking out loud...:
I haven't run any of the numbers but I'm musing about Twice Born Star? Hybrid? Bah while the set has it's uses no one see's it as a panacea. Malubeth? It seems a broken proc at the moment eventually to be put in the same Olympic Medal stand as Proxi Detonation as insanely overpowered sets for everyone that has been let go on for far too long. forget I mentioned it....

Since Dark Brotherhood, I don't think we've seen ANY magicka Sorc PVP 1vX videos from any of the usual sources. Please let us know from an entertainment standpoint if there's some Master out there that has the secret sauce. We're all here to learn.

Leandor

Search forums, there's plenty of discussions stating that stamina builds have terrible sustain problems since they need to base their defense on the same resource pool as their offense.

Any of these topics, I just think:

*specs for full damage*

*can't survive a rat's fart*

*complains on forum*

Maybe max dps meta is not for everyone?

Cronopoly

Leandor wrote: »

Search forums, there's plenty of discussions stating that stamina builds have terrible sustain problems since they need to base their defense on the same resource pool as their offense.

I'll take your word for it that these threads do exist. Since Dark Brotherhood came out and with so many good gear combinations with 3K+ weapon damage and 2K plus regen, i'm just surprised if those threads were recent. They may be...

Dracane

Valera Progib wrote: »

If I have time to CC break and then go defensive - in 1x1 situation I will not die, but apply 2 shields, defensive rune and instantly go on offensive with streak and then curse + frag and frag again if there is an opportunity.

For my 5 cents, people need to learn how to play better. Nobody can apply pressure on a magicka sorc for a long time or you are just bad, sorry.

Tactical pressure can be turned around with streak.

I do agree that this shield change has created a stupid mechanic, but I disagree on the result of it, as I think it actually improved Sorcs defensive abilities against bursts, just for a very short time and it requires a lot of micromanagement.

I personally changed to lightning staff and love it, though I think implosion or whatever it is called, should get buffed regarding the percentage (6% chance on 15% health is just stupid, I am better of using any other skill and not play this random).

For another my 5 cent, Light armor should have the biggest damage output it is just common sense, I can't believe that it is not the case at the moment... Magicka reduction/magicka regen/ spell penetration / crit chance and definitely bigger damage buff with 5 item set than Medium or Heavy or it should have the same defense rating as at least medium, because that is fair and that is common sense.

I don't feel that Magicka Sorc has become more difficult to play, but fighting DK's in heavy armor is just pain and I usually just ignore people in heavy armor and move along, they can't do anything to me anyway.

P.S. OP should read your text twice, a lot of your arguments are just irrelevant.
"Prior to Dark Brotherhood, with 2 or 3 shields, many average to good Sorcs definitely lived longer in close combat than they should have, and this was rightfully frustrating to many a Stamina toon trying to Wrecking Blow a Sorc etc who could not be damaged with Stacking Shields."

against wrecking blow you used to have only 1 shield... for healing ward to be effective you had to cast it on top of lost health, so it is irrelevant, you just proved the point that sorcs got buffed.

I never considered the annulment change a buff, it's a hard nerf in my book.
Hardened ward and annulment are way too expensive together

Prior to DB, harness magicka restored magicka even on stamina attacks. Now since it doesn't do this anymore it has become impossible to maintain vs stamina, I can't use both shields against stamina builds. Spamming hardened ward is cheaper and the same protection. In fact, i stopped using annulment after this change. I want the old annulment back.

psychotic13

Leandor wrote: »

Search forums, there's plenty of discussions stating that stamina builds have terrible sustain problems since they need to base their defense on the same resource pool as their offense.

Any of these topics, I just think:

*specs for full damage*

*can't survive a rat's fart*

*complains on forum*

Maybe max dps meta is not for everyone?

Sure my Magicka Sorcs shields cost Magicka? We to base our defence on the same pool as offence.

Dracane

psychotic13 wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Search forums, there's plenty of discussions stating that stamina builds have terrible sustain problems since they need to base their defense on the same resource pool as their offense.

Any of these topics, I just think:

*specs for full damage*

*can't survive a rat's fart*

*complains on forum*

Maybe max dps meta is not for everyone?

Sure my Magicka Sorcs shields cost Magicka? We to base our defence on the same pool as offence.

Of course we do. Don't even listen to their weird statements.
Magicka users use their main pool for offense and defense, just like stam.
However the mighty benefit that stamina users have, they can use magicka dumps. Because magicka is not an important pool for them, they can use things like scales, purge, cloak, bolt escape etc.

Magicka builds can't do this. If we are out of magicka, we are dead. if we are out of stamina, we are dead. If stam is out of magicka, they live just as long as they usually would.

The balance between magicka and stamina is non existing. Stamina is clearly superior and magicka needs serious adjustments to be brought on par.
An important start is to buff light armor, like someone else in this thread mentioned. Light armor is equal to running around naked, yet it doesn't offer more sustain or damage than medium armor does and medium armor also offers much more defense.

GrigorijMalahevich

If CC break and roll dodge is stamina, maybe make all heals magicka based?

Forestd16b14_ESO

So this is a nerf stamina and buff magikca thread right ?

Look shields are still OP and that 1 resource reliability or what every hurts stamina users alot for that they need stamina for both attacking and everything else which can drain stamina pretty fast and it doesn't help Wrobel increased the cost of blocking, sprinting, stealth, and break free. Stamina is now at the point you have to invest everything into 1 of those 5 things just to use it more than 2 or 3 times.

Like blocking for example you have to pool everything CP, traits, and enchantments into reducing block cost just to block for a reliable amount of time.

Magicka users are fine if not even more powerful from annulments buff and stamina users are still getting kicked in the gut cause ZoS logic.... No not ZoS logic Wrobels logic.

Also don't even bring up the perma-blocking Malubeth users ok ? Malubeth is OP just leave it at that.

Vangy

........... Sneaking = no stam regen
............blocking = no stam regen
............doge roll = increasing cost.....

What's next? No stam regen when my toon takes a fart?

Bear in mind, 2 of the above are core mechanics of stamina defence...... And let me get this right... Magicka users want to be like stamina users?? How about when u block it costs magicka but you get no regen? When shields are on you get no regen? Dodge roll you can pay magicka but you pay more and more just like stam toons..... And while we are at it lets make all class skills and weapon lines 50/50 for magicka and stamina morphs.

This is a slippery path and will see no end. Magicka is fine. Stamina is fine. Short of the malu cheese templars (who are magicka btw), this game is starting to see reasonable balance.

Barlthump

Dracane wrote: »

Single shields need to get buffed as defensive mechanics, they are too weak.
Magicka users, now mainly speaking of Sorcerers, can't dodge if they want to be able to break CC.
They wear light armor, so they are one shots when they are unportected.

Shields are not like block, dodge, reflects and even heals.
You must take all CCs, all damage. Block makes you immune to almost all CCs, dodge roll even totally negates as good as all CCs and damage and heals truly keep you alive, while shields only are a virtual health, not actual health.

Single shields are the worst defensive mechanic in the game. You get punished for using single shields, you must shieldstack to be able to survive and then ? You spend all your time spamming shields and the next CC will still kill you.
Tell me @ZoS : Is that the way it was intended ? You wanted to reduce shieldstacking. Yet with each patch/nerf, you just make it so, that people are forced even more into it.

Remove shieldstacking already. No critable shields or all this non sense, just disable shieldstacking and buff single shields.
Or simply remove the 50% shield debuff from battle spirit after disabling shieldstacking.

Oh I use stamina to dodge roll, cc break, sprint and CAST SPELLS. Your argument is so weak that it just looks like you can't adapt to the new playstyle. I'm assuming you haven't tried drink? Green max magicka food ain't gonna sustain you anymore my friend. Maybe go with some health enchants too. Whats your max stamina? 10k? With what, 500 recovery?

Cronopoly

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

So this is a nerf stamina and buff magikca thread right ?

No one said Nerf Stamina. what did you read? We said specifically Stacked shields had prior gave Magicka classes, specifically Sorcs a crutch and now that it's largely nerfed to hell, they have to find a way to adjust to the obvious resource pool Imbalance. At least Stamina toons can easily benefit from their primary pool to CCbreak, near Perma Dodge., and reposition with Sprint easily. Stamina toons that have resource issues are choosing to play at that limit...

Again Tactical Pressure in PVP does not mean spending 2/3rds of your time casting shield over and over while 100% defensive.

We all play Stamina toons as well and find it much easier to NOT have resource issues in PVP if using mainly just 1 resource pool. It is a huge disadvantage for all magicka classes unless they are predispositioned to sit on a wall of a keep.

connorw53

Vangy wrote: »

........... Sneaking = no stam regen
............blocking = no stam regen
............doge roll = increasing cost.....

What's next? No stam regen when my toon takes a fart?

Bear in mind, 2 of the above are core mechanics of stamina defence...... And let me get this right... Magicka users want to be like stamina users?? How about when u block it costs magicka but you get no regen? When shields are on you get no regen? Dodge roll you can pay magicka but you pay more and more just like stam toons..... And while we are at it lets make all class skills and weapon lines 50/50 for magicka and stamina morphs.

This is a slippery path and will see no end. Magicka is fine. Stamina is fine. Short of the malu cheese templars (who are magicka btw), this game is starting to see reasonable balance.

Oh god...
As if in this patch as a Stam build you sneak around and block. This is the age of the broken Shuffle and continuos dodge roll around a picket fence immortality.

The reason people are complaining is not because Stam is 'OP' or 'unbalanced'. It is because when you run out of 1 resource as a magic build you are as good as dead, and this is not the case on Stam builds as defensive skills can pool from magicka as well as stamina.

As for claiming your dodge roll costing more is a big deal, that doesn't sit right. most magic builds now can dodge roll once then they're lucky if they can break the incoming fear spam after wards. Be careful what you wish for. I wouldn't be surprised if you did fart and lose stamina soon.

Vangy

connorw53 wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

........... Sneaking = no stam regen
............blocking = no stam regen
............doge roll = increasing cost.....

What's next? No stam regen when my toon takes a fart?

Bear in mind, 2 of the above are core mechanics of stamina defence...... And let me get this right... Magicka users want to be like stamina users?? How about when u block it costs magicka but you get no regen? When shields are on you get no regen? Dodge roll you can pay magicka but you pay more and more just like stam toons..... And while we are at it lets make all class skills and weapon lines 50/50 for magicka and stamina morphs.

This is a slippery path and will see no end. Magicka is fine. Stamina is fine. Short of the malu cheese templars (who are magicka btw), this game is starting to see reasonable balance.

Oh god...
As if in this patch as a Stam build you sneak around and block. This is the age of the broken Shuffle and continuos dodge roll around a picket fence immortality.

The reason people are complaining is not because Stam is 'OP' or 'unbalanced'. It is because when you run out of 1 resource as a magic build you are as good as dead, and this is not the case on Stam builds as defensive skills can pool from magicka as well as stamina.

As for claiming your dodge roll costing more is a big deal, that doesn't sit right. most magic builds now can dodge roll once then they're lucky if they can break the incoming fear spam after wards. Be careful what you wish for. I wouldn't be surprised if you did fart and lose stamina soon.

Sometimes I wonder if all the QQ about stam being OP comes from people who even have stamina toons. Read my sig bub. I have magika toons. I PLAY magicka toons. Prolly a lot more than you do. And yes I dont zerg 24/7 so sneaking and blocking are core parts of survival in small scale. Especially more so since i have a stamina DK who is a PvP tank build to block troll with 3x cost reduction for block enchants and 5/7 heavy black rose. Why dont you actually go out there and TRY making a rolly polly stamina toon and lets see how successful you are?

Most of those roll dodge builds are running well over 3k regen to be effective with shuffle. Means you dont hit nearly as hard as you can. If you build to block like my DK, you need to give up all semblance of damage going full blown potato tank. You are pretty much group support....

Meanwhile my sorc and magblade steam roll with insane healing or shields while keeping their QQ damage. Stamina and mag are pretty balanced. Stamina tends to do better burst in 1v1s or small scale while mag still reigns king when it comes to group play. Just take a look at all the proxy, negates and meteors in PvP. Most groups run mostly mag with a few bombard spamming monkeys from stamina....

As for your mag toons not being able to dodge roll more than once, maybe its not wise to stack 45k magicka and 100 points into arcanist? Try putting some points into tumbling and slotting one or 2 hakeijo enchants. My magplar runs well over 15k stamina... And he RD's people to oblivion just fine. Run immovability pots to limit the amount of CC that comes your way. Combo this with things like 10-12k shields on a sorc for example, and you can literally be immortal just like rolly polly stam toons but without the need to stack 3k regen on your main resource.

Van_0S

@Vangy
True !
Recently, I started playing as a stamblade( lvl 47). What I noticed is that stamina toon as more survivability and quick burst than a magicka toon in this patch. ( shuffle is really good also the low lvl bonus! )
Also, the game becomes more fun while playing has a ganker.

Paraflex

I believe sorcs are fine where they are at. They are ranged and can do good dps. They have to shield to stay alive seems fair.


The real problem is Stam dps in general has the edge in almost all situations. Stam has some great synergy for ults right now. Incap and flawless are quite strong

Stamina classes should have weaker heals so they have to be even more defensive. Creating pressure on Stam nbs isn't easy right now.it's pretty easy to dodge roll away,trap beats,shuffle,vigor to a tree and LOS to pick people off


I'm a healer Templar and I think Templars in general are to strong. Everyone's running around with malubeth and heavy armor spamming Bol.

The edge right now favors stamina dps and magika healers....I have to say this is not a fair or balanced pvp patch although they made changes in the right direction. They still need to make adjustments.

thankyourat

Vangy wrote: »

connorw53 wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

........... Sneaking = no stam regen
............blocking = no stam regen
............doge roll = increasing cost.....

What's next? No stam regen when my toon takes a fart?

Bear in mind, 2 of the above are core mechanics of stamina defence...... And let me get this right... Magicka users want to be like stamina users?? How about when u block it costs magicka but you get no regen? When shields are on you get no regen? Dodge roll you can pay magicka but you pay more and more just like stam toons..... And while we are at it lets make all class skills and weapon lines 50/50 for magicka and stamina morphs.

This is a slippery path and will see no end. Magicka is fine. Stamina is fine. Short of the malu cheese templars (who are magicka btw), this game is starting to see reasonable balance.

Oh god...
As if in this patch as a Stam build you sneak around and block. This is the age of the broken Shuffle and continuos dodge roll around a picket fence immortality.

The reason people are complaining is not because Stam is 'OP' or 'unbalanced'. It is because when you run out of 1 resource as a magic build you are as good as dead, and this is not the case on Stam builds as defensive skills can pool from magicka as well as stamina.

As for claiming your dodge roll costing more is a big deal, that doesn't sit right. most magic builds now can dodge roll once then they're lucky if they can break the incoming fear spam after wards. Be careful what you wish for. I wouldn't be surprised if you did fart and lose stamina soon.

Sometimes I wonder if all the QQ about stam being OP comes from people who even have stamina toons. Read my sig bub. I have magika toons. I PLAY magicka toons. Prolly a lot more than you do. And yes I dont zerg 24/7 so sneaking and blocking are core parts of survival in small scale. Especially more so since i have a stamina DK who is a PvP tank build to block troll with 3x cost reduction for block enchants and 5/7 heavy black rose. Why dont you actually go out there and TRY making a rolly polly stamina toon and lets see how successful you are?

Most of those roll dodge builds are running well over 3k regen to be effective with shuffle. Means you dont hit nearly as hard as you can. If you build to block like my DK, you need to give up all semblance of damage going full blown potato tank. You are pretty much group support....

Meanwhile my sorc and magblade steam roll with insane healing or shields while keeping their QQ damage. Stamina and mag are pretty balanced. Stamina tends to do better burst in 1v1s or small scale while mag still reigns king when it comes to group play. Just take a look at all the proxy, negates and meteors in PvP. Most groups run mostly mag with a few bombard spamming monkeys from stamina....

As for your mag toons not being able to dodge roll more than once, maybe its not wise to stack 45k magicka and 100 points into arcanist? Try putting some points into tumbling and slotting one or 2 hakeijo enchants. My magplar runs well over 15k stamina... And he RD's people to oblivion just fine. Run immovability pots to limit the amount of CC that comes your way. Combo this with things like 10-12k shields on a sorc for example, and you can literally be immortal just like rolly polly stam toons but without the need to stack 3k regen on your main resource.

Yea I have a magblade, stamblade, and stam dk. And it's night and day the difference this patch. And the reason being is that it's just too many CCs and snares magicka builds are just too slow. shields are good to be a little tanky but mobility is a lot better than just standing there being rooted and restacking shields until you die. The burst on stamina builds is also so much higher. on my magblade to get the same burst I have on my stamblade I have to stack everything into damage were on my stamblade I can have 3.9k weapon damage and 2k regen. I think the classes are kind of close to being balanced though. If they just increase the burst damage of magicka classes to be higher than stam classes since they have the least amount of protection and mobility it will give some incentive to play magicka. Because as of right now every stam class is better than its magicka counterpart. I'm still confused as to why stamina classes hit harder than magicka classes in the first place.

Vangy

thankyourat wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

connorw53 wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

........... Sneaking = no stam regen
............blocking = no stam regen
............doge roll = increasing cost.....

What's next? No stam regen when my toon takes a fart?

Bear in mind, 2 of the above are core mechanics of stamina defence...... And let me get this right... Magicka users want to be like stamina users?? How about when u block it costs magicka but you get no regen? When shields are on you get no regen? Dodge roll you can pay magicka but you pay more and more just like stam toons..... And while we are at it lets make all class skills and weapon lines 50/50 for magicka and stamina morphs.

This is a slippery path and will see no end. Magicka is fine. Stamina is fine. Short of the malu cheese templars (who are magicka btw), this game is starting to see reasonable balance.

Oh god...
As if in this patch as a Stam build you sneak around and block. This is the age of the broken Shuffle and continuos dodge roll around a picket fence immortality.

The reason people are complaining is not because Stam is 'OP' or 'unbalanced'. It is because when you run out of 1 resource as a magic build you are as good as dead, and this is not the case on Stam builds as defensive skills can pool from magicka as well as stamina.

As for claiming your dodge roll costing more is a big deal, that doesn't sit right. most magic builds now can dodge roll once then they're lucky if they can break the incoming fear spam after wards. Be careful what you wish for. I wouldn't be surprised if you did fart and lose stamina soon.

Sometimes I wonder if all the QQ about stam being OP comes from people who even have stamina toons. Read my sig bub. I have magika toons. I PLAY magicka toons. Prolly a lot more than you do. And yes I dont zerg 24/7 so sneaking and blocking are core parts of survival in small scale. Especially more so since i have a stamina DK who is a PvP tank build to block troll with 3x cost reduction for block enchants and 5/7 heavy black rose. Why dont you actually go out there and TRY making a rolly polly stamina toon and lets see how successful you are?

Most of those roll dodge builds are running well over 3k regen to be effective with shuffle. Means you dont hit nearly as hard as you can. If you build to block like my DK, you need to give up all semblance of damage going full blown potato tank. You are pretty much group support....

Meanwhile my sorc and magblade steam roll with insane healing or shields while keeping their QQ damage. Stamina and mag are pretty balanced. Stamina tends to do better burst in 1v1s or small scale while mag still reigns king when it comes to group play. Just take a look at all the proxy, negates and meteors in PvP. Most groups run mostly mag with a few bombard spamming monkeys from stamina....

As for your mag toons not being able to dodge roll more than once, maybe its not wise to stack 45k magicka and 100 points into arcanist? Try putting some points into tumbling and slotting one or 2 hakeijo enchants. My magplar runs well over 15k stamina... And he RD's people to oblivion just fine. Run immovability pots to limit the amount of CC that comes your way. Combo this with things like 10-12k shields on a sorc for example, and you can literally be immortal just like rolly polly stam toons but without the need to stack 3k regen on your main resource.

Yea I have a magblade, stamblade, and stam dk. And it's night and day the difference this patch. And the reason being is that it's just too many CCs and snares magicka builds are just too slow. shields are good to be a little tanky but mobility is a lot better than just standing there being rooted and restacking shields until you die. The burst on stamina builds is also so much higher. on my magblade to get the same burst I have on my stamblade I have to stack everything into damage were on my stamblade I can have 3.9k weapon damage and 2k regen. I think the classes are kind of close to being balanced though. If they just increase the burst damage of magicka classes to be higher than stam classes since they have the least amount of protection and mobility it will give some incentive to play magicka. Because as of right now every stam class is better than its magicka counterpart. I'm still confused as to why stamina classes hit harder than magicka classes in the first place.

What they truly need to fix is out of whack penetration. This is by far the most punishing aspect of going light armour. With around 10k resists, every single DPS toon can turn u into a naked willy billy. 5000+ from sharpened, 5000+ from 5 LA, or maces etc combo'ed with CP in penetration..... broken as hell. As long as they tune back penetration, magicka will be fine. Wont feel like you are getting trucked without shields. Also, stam toons tend to hit harder to make up for the fact that they have crappy AOE capabilities. Short of bombard, there's really not much to go on. Spin2Win dosent compare in anyway to things like standard, meteor, negate, proxy and VD. I do think magicka toons can get a wee bit little more spell power though. However, for the most part, magicka and stamina are pretty balanced this patch. I dont get why people act like stam is king over end all be all tho.

As for stamina always being better than their magicka counter parts im not too sure. Imo;

For temps, I love my magplar over my stamplar.
For NB, its kinda even steven. Stam-gankblade is good ganking scum while mag-blade is pretty amazing for open world and group VD burst.
For DK, well.... magDK is crap for open world solo... StamDK is really good in small scale but tends to be kinda useless in group play. I still vote stamDK here tho.
For sorc, stamsorc is awesomely mobile and does great damage making it really good for small scale. In group play tho, negate from mag sorc is way too OP and I love it. My vote falls with magsorc.

Dracane

Barlthump wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Single shields need to get buffed as defensive mechanics, they are too weak.
Magicka users, now mainly speaking of Sorcerers, can't dodge if they want to be able to break CC.
They wear light armor, so they are one shots when they are unportected.

Shields are not like block, dodge, reflects and even heals.
You must take all CCs, all damage. Block makes you immune to almost all CCs, dodge roll even totally negates as good as all CCs and damage and heals truly keep you alive, while shields only are a virtual health, not actual health.

Single shields are the worst defensive mechanic in the game. You get punished for using single shields, you must shieldstack to be able to survive and then ? You spend all your time spamming shields and the next CC will still kill you.
Tell me @ZoS : Is that the way it was intended ? You wanted to reduce shieldstacking. Yet with each patch/nerf, you just make it so, that people are forced even more into it.

Remove shieldstacking already. No critable shields or all this non sense, just disable shieldstacking and buff single shields.
Or simply remove the 50% shield debuff from battle spirit after disabling shieldstacking.

Oh I use stamina to dodge roll, cc break, sprint and CAST SPELLS. Your argument is so weak that it just looks like you can't adapt to the new playstyle. I'm assuming you haven't tried drink? Green max magicka food ain't gonna sustain you anymore my friend. Maybe go with some health enchants too. Whats your max stamina? 10k? With what, 500 recovery?

Do that Then your magic is weak. For everything that you take away from your magic affinity and put it into stamina sustain or health, you will only weaken your magic.

Magicka damage is pretty foolish in pvp already, I can't effort weakening myself further.
I'm talking about traditional 100% magicka and 100% stamina builds. That's how many people do it

Dracane

Vangy wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

connorw53 wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

........... Sneaking = no stam regen
............blocking = no stam regen
............doge roll = increasing cost.....

What's next? No stam regen when my toon takes a fart?

Bear in mind, 2 of the above are core mechanics of stamina defence...... And let me get this right... Magicka users want to be like stamina users?? How about when u block it costs magicka but you get no regen? When shields are on you get no regen? Dodge roll you can pay magicka but you pay more and more just like stam toons..... And while we are at it lets make all class skills and weapon lines 50/50 for magicka and stamina morphs.

This is a slippery path and will see no end. Magicka is fine. Stamina is fine. Short of the malu cheese templars (who are magicka btw), this game is starting to see reasonable balance.

Oh god...
As if in this patch as a Stam build you sneak around and block. This is the age of the broken Shuffle and continuos dodge roll around a picket fence immortality.

The reason people are complaining is not because Stam is 'OP' or 'unbalanced'. It is because when you run out of 1 resource as a magic build you are as good as dead, and this is not the case on Stam builds as defensive skills can pool from magicka as well as stamina.

As for claiming your dodge roll costing more is a big deal, that doesn't sit right. most magic builds now can dodge roll once then they're lucky if they can break the incoming fear spam after wards. Be careful what you wish for. I wouldn't be surprised if you did fart and lose stamina soon.

Sometimes I wonder if all the QQ about stam being OP comes from people who even have stamina toons. Read my sig bub. I have magika toons. I PLAY magicka toons. Prolly a lot more than you do. And yes I dont zerg 24/7 so sneaking and blocking are core parts of survival in small scale. Especially more so since i have a stamina DK who is a PvP tank build to block troll with 3x cost reduction for block enchants and 5/7 heavy black rose. Why dont you actually go out there and TRY making a rolly polly stamina toon and lets see how successful you are?

Most of those roll dodge builds are running well over 3k regen to be effective with shuffle. Means you dont hit nearly as hard as you can. If you build to block like my DK, you need to give up all semblance of damage going full blown potato tank. You are pretty much group support....

Meanwhile my sorc and magblade steam roll with insane healing or shields while keeping their QQ damage. Stamina and mag are pretty balanced. Stamina tends to do better burst in 1v1s or small scale while mag still reigns king when it comes to group play. Just take a look at all the proxy, negates and meteors in PvP. Most groups run mostly mag with a few bombard spamming monkeys from stamina....

As for your mag toons not being able to dodge roll more than once, maybe its not wise to stack 45k magicka and 100 points into arcanist? Try putting some points into tumbling and slotting one or 2 hakeijo enchants. My magplar runs well over 15k stamina... And he RD's people to oblivion just fine. Run immovability pots to limit the amount of CC that comes your way. Combo this with things like 10-12k shields on a sorc for example, and you can literally be immortal just like rolly polly stam toons but without the need to stack 3k regen on your main resource.

Yea I have a magblade, stamblade, and stam dk. And it's night and day the difference this patch. And the reason being is that it's just too many CCs and snares magicka builds are just too slow. shields are good to be a little tanky but mobility is a lot better than just standing there being rooted and restacking shields until you die. The burst on stamina builds is also so much higher. on my magblade to get the same burst I have on my stamblade I have to stack everything into damage were on my stamblade I can have 3.9k weapon damage and 2k regen. I think the classes are kind of close to being balanced though. If they just increase the burst damage of magicka classes to be higher than stam classes since they have the least amount of protection and mobility it will give some incentive to play magicka. Because as of right now every stam class is better than its magicka counterpart. I'm still confused as to why stamina classes hit harder than magicka classes in the first place.

What they truly need to fix is out of whack penetration. This is by far the most punishing aspect of going light armour. With around 10k resists, every single DPS toon can turn u into a naked willy billy. 5000+ from sharpened, 5000+ from 5 LA, or maces etc combo'ed with CP in penetration..... broken as hell. As long as they tune back penetration, magicka will be fine. Wont feel like you are getting trucked without shields. Also, stam toons tend to hit harder to make up for the fact that they have crappy AOE capabilities. Short of bombard, there's really not much to go on. Spin2Win dosent compare in anyway to things like standard, meteor, negate, proxy and VD. I do think magicka toons can get a wee bit little more spell power though. However, for the most part, magicka and stamina are pretty balanced this patch. I dont get why people act like stam is king over end all be all tho.

As for stamina always being better than their magicka counter parts im not too sure. Imo;

For temps, I love my magplar over my stamplar.
For NB, its kinda even steven. Stam-gankblade is good ganking scum while mag-blade is pretty amazing for open world and group VD burst.
For DK, well.... magDK is crap for open world solo... StamDK is really good in small scale but tends to be kinda useless in group play. I still vote stamDK here tho.
For sorc, stamsorc is awesomely mobile and does great damage making it really good for small scale. In group play tho, negate from mag sorc is way too OP and I love it. My vote falls with magsorc.

Non sense. This will not favor light armor/magicka in any way. This favors medium and heavy even more.
What magicka needs, is a damage and sustain benefit over medium armor.

Medium and heavy armor can survive damage for some time without even protecting themselves. Magicka has to spam shields and heals and can't deal any damage. What's the point of being the squishiest, when you don't get rewarded with the highest sustain or damage ? Medium armor/stamina is the king of sustain and damage and has more resistance and that's not fair at all !

Evocation should decrease the magicka cost by 4% instead of 3% and Concentration, in addtion to adding spell penetration, should add some flat spell damage.
I mean come on ! Look how almost all medium armor passives and some heavy armor passives grant 2 benefits with 1 passive. ligh armor passives only 1. Light armor needs serious love. look how heavy armor potentially offers more damage, more defense and more sustain than light armor. Just look at the Wrath and Rapid mending passive