Tiny's Value 6-Pack: Which Would You Want Most?

tinythinker

Of all the suggestions I've made since the game launched in 2014, the following seem to be the most likely to be considered for implementation by ZOS given the game's development since then. There are three proposals for PvE and three for PvP.

Which is your favorite from each (PvP and PvE)?

Which is your favorite overall?




New Features for PvE

#1 Repeatable inn activities: drinking, singing, brawling, etc. Others have suggested inn activities as well. My version of this is summarized in the spoiler:

My own recommendations would be:

1. Have the events be short and repeatable with XP/gold rewards and also with achievements for successfully completing something 10, 50, and 100 times. Or 5, 15, 30 times. Or 10, 100, 200 times. Depends on the event, but you get the idea. This encourages players to come to inns for as long as they want without feeling like they have to stay a long time to get anything out of it. If the events are fun, have decent rewards, and unlock achievements with funny/clever titles, people will still visit inns more and stay longer.

2. Have some events be universal, and others rare (original new events or unique versions of universal events). Drinking contests, patterned after the event already present at Geirmund's Hall in The Rift, could be universal. Others could be rare, only spawning at certain times like the Lightbringer, Crimes Pays, Give to the Poor, and I Like M'aiq achievements. The rare ones encourage people to stop more often at different inns. Have NPC comments-in-passing come up if you get the full achievement series for one of the event types ("I heard you can really hold your mead! You're no milk-drinker!").

3. Have a focus on NPC events. That isn't to say no player vs player contests should be available, but if most or all inn events require other players to try/complete the concept will flop. Some players prefer to be solo all of the time, and some play at odd hours. Having fun, rewarding events (see #1) that have some rare, achievement based elements mixed in (see #2) will get people into the inns. But if I go in a certain inn off-hours and no one is there or they are busy, I don't want to have to wait around. Certainly though, have one or two events that players can do together with some nice rewards.

As for the event types/categories I would endorse:

- Bar Brawls. These would be fists only, no ability bar, and without pushover NPCs. You wouldn't be 100-0. You'd have to work for the wins and lose a fair amount. Special/rare version would involve getting drunk first as part of the NPC's challenge as you do in some fights in Ebonheart. The drunk versions would be like rare spawns and have their own achievement. Another rare version would be special named bar brawler champion types that are particularly tough and spawn randomly.
Rewards: XP, Gold, Credit Toward Achievement(s)

- Drinking Contests. Like Geirmund's Hall include a mechanic that allows you to not pass out (like eating food every so many drink) but with fast/hard drinking NPCs competing at the same time to make it a challenge. This one could include an option for multiple players to join in after the event is triggered but the NPCs would still compete.
Rewards: XP, Gold, Credit Toward Achievement

- Gambling. Something simple that is easy to follow with text prompt and a basic graphics display but that requires some strategy and luck, like a slightly more sophisticated version of rock-paper-scissors. It should have a chance to make a mistake/lose a round at least twice before the event ends with the player winning or losing, like picking a master lock on a door or chest. Have it be a single game so players can learn/practice it and work on the achievement anywhere in Tamriel.
Rewards: XP, Gold, Credit Toward Achievement

- Singing. Again, goes back to Geirmund's Hall (and every karaoke night in a bar ever). You pick up a job as an entertainer and have a choice to get a drink (or two, or three, or... the bottle... what was I you me?) before you proceed. You then get a glance at the lyric sheet and begin. The more you have to drink the greater the potential rewards but also the less time you have to read the lyrics at the start and the faster the text prompts go by (if you miss one the default is "..."). The more accurate you are the higher the reward.

So getting tanked and hitting every lyric is a big pay day. Also the drunker you are the blurrier the lyric sheet is at the start. The song book from which your selection is drawn is quite large and some songs are region specific. Achievements for completing songs, completing songs totally wasted, completing songs perfectly, completing songs perfectly while totally wasted, and a single achievement for gloriously blowing a song while totally wasted are included.
Rewards: XP, Gold, Credit Toward Achievement(s)

#2 Adding Mages Guild/Fighters Guild Daily Quests. Others have suggested inn activities as well. My version of this is summarized in the spoiler:

My own recommendations would be:

A new DLC zone or two could be added to give these guilds a "headquarters", but honestly the Mages Guild already has this with Eyevea and the Fighters Guild with the Earth Forge. If you have to complete the storylines of these guilds to get repeatable quests there is no problem, and this would be a good reward for doing so and make these mini-zones more useful and populated. An alternative to either adding a headquarters in a new zone (which wouldn't have to be all about the guild just an added bonus) or using the existing mini-zones would be adding quest-boards in all guild halls.

A compromise for all three:

-quest boards for basic quests available in all guild halls for base games and DLC zones
-special quests available only in Eyevea/the Earth Forge.

For the Fighters Guild, the contract against the daedra is still in place, so either these are all still related to that (daedra have appeared outside of some town, a portal to Oblivion has spawned in some little old lady's basement, etc) or maybe there is room for a little something different. Two types of special quests that occurred to me are training missions and hunts. Feel free to add your own ideas for types of special FG quests, but first read the spoiler-based concept I propose below which is hidden for new players who haven't done that guild's storyline or the main storyline:

The FG lost members like the traitor Aelif and got a new Guild Master when Merrick took over, and also suffered heavy losses as part of the invasion force that struck deep into Coldharbour but also gained members such as Skordo the Knife. Skordo is the one who runs the dailies, and has a quest type to help rebuild the Guild by assisting in the training of new (NPC) recruits. So you go out and help these NPCs with their missions. This doesn't have to mean escort quests!

Another special quest type for those who complete the Guild storyline is a separate board for really big monsters. They may or may not be daedra but they are all dangerous and need to be dealt with. Some can be soloed by pretty much anyone if you take long enough, some may require 2-4 players (unless you are just soooo good), and some may require 4-8 players (again your mileage may vary). You can pick which of each type to do (some or all) that are currently available, but they spawn in random places so there is also a hunting element involved. You would know the zone, but have to look for the beast. These would clearly have big rewards.

The Mages Guild would be similar to Fighters but without the restrictions the current setting/lore has on the targets of the Fighters Guild. These quests could be highly variable, from gathering ingredients in dangerous areas to rescuing researchers and so on. I have no particular ideas at the moment for the special quest types you unlock at the end of the Mages Guild storyline, but I am sure some fun things could be added. Not sure who the quest giver should be for those (Valaste doesn't make sense as she was important for her translating, so someone else should do this).

These new Fighters and Mages guild quests can be broad and creative, with jokes and nostalgia pulled from prior games as well as new things to fit the current era.

#3 Bonus for hard to find roles in LFG queue and a commendation system. My version of this is summarized in the spoiler:

The bonus for using Group Finder is nice. The bonus for doing a random dungeon is nice. Now go the next step and add a bonus for a role (tank, healer, damage dealer) that is in short supply when someone joins the queue. This encourages more people to play as certain roles, while vote-kick can be used for those who abuse the system. But that's only part of the idea being shared and is optional.

Would you like to be able to give someone a at the end of a successful run with a random group for a random dungeon? If so, what about people who acquire a certain rep level being given mentor status to help newer/less experienced players? I kind of miss being able to give a to a player from a random queue who did a good job or who showed that they were new but trying/learning and pushed through their mistakes.

There are lots of ways to do a commendation system, and naturally some folks who hear about my idea assume one of those ways and judge it on that basis. In fact, when I first thought of it in another post, I had the idea of it being an up-vote/down-vote system. Didn't take me long to scrap that, and I didn't bring that concept here, but, it seems like it's something people are worried about anyway. It's not what I'm suggesting.

Another thing people are worried about is that it would be part of a public ranking system that could further encourage elitism. So let me be clear that the way I would add this system this would *not* be the case. More on how I avoid that and what such a system could look like below...

So, as for reps/rec/coms, or reputations/recommendations/commendations, whichever term is used:

-you would only get them from random groups, not pre-made groups.
-having lots of them would not get you shorter dungeon queues.
-they would not be a badge of superiority/people couldn't see your number of commendations.

Those to me would be non-negotiable, as the whole point is to be friendly, welcoming, encouraging, etc. Boosting elitism is the opposite of those things. The commendation is something given as a thanks or an encouragement, a kind pat of the back, not a "I'm so much more awesome than you" kind of deal.

Now, at the most basic level, you simply get commendations, only you can see them, and they are a form of positive reinforcement for trying your best with random groups for dungeons using the group-finder tool. That is the bare minimum of the idea presented in the original post I made above. That's it.

Yes, I have mentioned a mentoring system before, and I hinted that a commendation system could be tied to it in the original version of this post, but again, that would not be a system of superiority but of service.

Before reading further, keep the vision laid out above in mind.

Commendations

How would I go about building a system to make random groups/dungeons more fun, welcoming, and social? For one thing, give people achievements for their commendations. Hold on, tiny! you may be thinking That would lead to achievement checks and elitism! In my view, elitists gonna elite. They can already ask you to show achievements or titles for Undaunted/Vet Dungeon stuff, or for running arenas, and so on. They can ask for your DPS. But you can tell them "no", and you can report them if they try to kick you for refusing to answer.

Players like achievements. Getting commendations from strangers you got grouped with in group finder, and getting enough for an achievement, is going to give a lot of new or "inexperienced with dungeons" type players a great feeling. I've written guides for such players before and encouragement really helps. We want *more* regular, fun players getting into these groups, so reward them for it.

There's more though. Because in my system, players with low Undaunted levels/rank would offer increased rewards to the whole party upon completing that random dungeon. If you want a super-speed or farming run, use /zone or /guild. The obvious pitfall here is that some people would just make alts to get the bonuses, so take it easy, because this would be like the dye system: account-wide. It goes off the highest Undaunted rank any character has. So if people want to delete their established characters for a dungeon run bonus, be my guest!

In this same pattern, each time you get a group dungeon achievement in a random-dungeon group for the first time on your account, the whole party gets another bonus at the end of a completed run. This means that other players have a real interest in helping each other, but especially newer/less experienced players. There is an incentive to be helpful and patient and to celebrate the little victories of other players.

Oh, and did I mention that if you abandon a group once it is formed that A.) you are locked out from running in a random dungeon for 30 minutes and that B.) you lose those extra group rewards for an hour? If a group is really that bad and you are that impatient to leave it go ahead, but there is a cool-down period. Rage-quitters and those looking for whatever they consider to be a better group get a time out.

Mentoring

As for mentoring, it isn't a badge of being the best and "let's all celebrate my snobbishness". It means you've run a LOT of random dungeons under the conditions given above. That means you had or have developed patience, a knack for giving friendly advice and for tolerating mistakes by less experience players, and so on, and you really like meeting people and working as a part of a team. How else would you get the number of commendations needed to qualify? (I'm thinking between 500 and 1000).

Mentors get their own achievements, so right there is more positive reinforcement for being friendly and helpful. For functionality, it would mean a player is, when possible, paired with less experienced players *if* they enter the queue as a mentor. This does not get them into a group faster with the random dungeon selector, it just means they can choose to be paired, when available, with people who likely need more help. But if you want, you can deselect the "group as a mentor" option in the group-finder tool. You choose if and when you want to put yourself out there as available for that.

This is still a brief sketch. Unanswered questions I am looking at include ones like, "Should someone who has earned mentor status and chooses to run as a mentor get some extra rewards at the end of a random dungeon run?" So, that is something I'd especially appreciate opinions/feedback on.

Thanks for reading. Comments go below. Don't forget to rate this post if you like it

New Features for PvP

#4 Add "moving flags" (supply transports, prisoner marches) to Cyrodiil for small group objectives. Original post is here, or you can read about it in the spoiler below.

Original Thread

An idea came up in an excellent thread about adding/changing things in PvP, and I wanted to give the idea its own thread for review and feedback. Someone suggested the general notion of escort quests, which lead me to consider the following:

There was a thread about supply lines a good while back, but it was more about capping stronghold resources. What if there were supply convoys, like a wagon, that acted like a moving "flag" to be defended or capped, no new quest needed. They would periodically leave from one stronghold or town to a destination with a contingent of NPC guards. You could choose to escort or not at any time, either because you planned to or just ran across one of them. They would stop moving when attacked, and you would get an O-tick for capturing the wagon or a D-tick for defending it, just like a stronghold or outpost.

There are already NPC guards who escort captured NPC prisoners in Cyrodiil, so that could be added as another type of "moving flag".

Capping these moving flags could have benefits beyond AP, such as loot. But capping and defending them could also have additional effects, either on resources, strongholds, or the players involved in he fight. Buffs, debuffs, etc.

Would you like to have new objectives/opportunities such as this, especially those suited to small groups, that can impact the flow of the war and have effects on the strategic moves of an Alliance? Is there anything you'd add or modify to this kind of idea?


Further Elaboration/Examples

Imagine then a supply caravan en route between Roebeck and Brindle. There are several tough NPC guards escorting it. You and a few allies decide to hit it. Once you start your attack it shows up on the map of the Alliance associated with the caravan. It was on no ones map before that. So you've got a time table. If you can cap it quickly enough, you get whatever the rewards are (see above). If not, and some folks from the defending Alliance are nearby, they have a shot at driving you away and, after a minute, getting a defense tick.

While you are hitting the caravan an NPC jumps down and sprints away. It's a courier, who functions like an IC treasure scamp. If you can chase him down before s/he get away there is a big bonus. Similarly, spies creeping around near strongholds would work the same way as couriers but without being tied to a mobile flag.

Now picture going after a prisoner transport. It follows the same basic mechanics as a supply caravan encounter, only substitute intelligence officer for courier. The rewards (loot, buffs/debuffs, etc) would be distinct, and visually they would have some differences. The NPC arrangement and composition could be different to give the fights a different feel.

These encounters would come with a new set of achievements, and could also have their own quests from the mission boards.

#5 Cloud Ruler Temple as a PvP Trial-Style Battleground *or* a conventional Battleground. Original post is here, or you can read about it in the spoiler below.

Cloud Ruler Temple as a PvP Trial-Style Battleground

Basics: An eighteen player trial with three starting points for three groups of six and places where the paths of each group intersect. If you stop to ambush you might get an advantage unless you lose or the other groups already went by. Once a group leaves a spot where the paths intersect enemy players can't follow. Choose your strategy but be prepared.

Details: The reason for groups of six is to make it easier to get a group together. It could also be set to three sets of four players to make a group even easier to put together, as this is key. You need to have three different groups going in together so getting in without huge queues is a must.

The idea of a PvP trial is essentially an elaborate battleground in which each team has a path they have to follow. There are options as you proceed in terms of diverging paths and different obstacles along the alternatives. These also offer different buffs or scenarios that are used where the paths of different teams cross. So it isn't just a PvE/PvP mixer with incongruous elements thrown in. The focus is PvP, and the PvE elements are there to support that. The choices you make in the PvE sections directly affect how PvP plays out when you meet one or both of the other teams.

The PvE element adds strategy and tactics by giving an advantage to those teams that synergize their strengths/weaknesses with the options presented, yet in the end the rock-paper-scissors element of those PvE choices add some unpredictability as well. The story involves trying to be the first to reach some lore-based MacGuffin that could turn the tide of the war for the Alliance possessing it. Teams who reach certain checkpoints have members spawn at those locations when they die. Some are unique to each path, some are open to any team (first come, first to claim, but claiming takes time while the flag is capped...).

Overall the trial design emphasizes constant action that directly involves PvP or bolsters the team for the PvP action waiting right around the corner (some boons involve resource management, others focus on speed, so choose wisely). The trial can be very short if you successfully attempt all of the shortcuts and aren't thwarted by a rival group. The unique rewards (with useful PvP traits like Impen!), the shifting map (certain passageways open while others close at different times), and the multi-elevation cross-path areas with lots of cover designed for small-group battles are the big draw, as well as fun and funny achievements for the completionists.

A vitality bonus is added at the end of the run to the winning team. Other teams still get some XP and a lesser reward, but the winning team's loot is far superior, with the second place team still doing better than third place. Thus you don't waste your time if you don't come in first, but, there is a big incentive to practice and get a good team together for the big prizes.


Cloud Ruler Temple as a conventional PvP Battleground

This has a similar set-up to the Trial version, except there aren't intersecting paths to follow, no bosses to fight for buffs along the way, and so on. The story for this version is to try to claim Cloud Ruler Temple itself, yet mobs still keep spawning and there are environmental hazards as you make your way to the heart of the structure from your spawn point. There is a capture the flag mechanic that gives points the longer a flag is held, and there are also points awarded per enemy kill.

After a flag has been fully captured NPC guards spawn. Some of the flags are in interesting locations that are hard to get to and hard to defend, so teams must choose where to make their stands. Again, the structure is laid out in a multi-level fashion, so access to some flags may require moving up and down stairs. The area is still large, but not as larger as the Trial version, which is warped because of Daedric influence from Coldhabour. Each run of the Battleground is timer-based, with winners having the best score when time expires.

The group size for this version could either be twelve players, for a three-way total of thirty-six per instance, or eight players, for a total of twenty four per instance. Dead players must respawn at the fixed starting location where they entered at the start of the instance. There are buff icons that become available in random locations that function similar to Maelstrom Arena, but not nearly as powerful. Because the area is multi-elevation, boiling oil can be used on level spots near edges, some of which are over flags below...

Rewards are similar in distribution to the Trials version.

#6 Make the IC districts an open, rolling battleground. Original post is here, or you can read about it in the spoiler below.

Add periodic scoring to IC for the districts related to flag capture. The more districts you have at the end of each evaluaton period the higher the Alliance score. Give out rewards every so often (10 or 15 minutes? Maybe 20 minutes?). That gives a kind of rolling/ongoing battlegrounds feel. The rewards aren't huge but enough to get people to stick around and help capture/defend flags, and they add up fairly quickly with each cycle being 10-15 minutes. While people are there they can also do quests, kill roaving horrors, etc. Lots of PvP chaos and filled streets running with blood. Basically a non-instanced, open, rolling BG.

You can still just do ganking in IC, or focus on completing PvE quests in IC, but there will be lots more people there and you will have extra options for things to do and rewards to receive. Maybe you are dueling, fishing, questing, etc, and you notice that the eval period is ending, so you go help to take/defend the flag of the district you are in. Or maybe you spend all of your time defending/capturing flags.

This means we can give IC its own population cap and queue. You can still access it from Cyro if you want, but it will still count as a separate zone if it takes away too much from AvA in overland Cyrodiil.

ItsGlaive

The Inn stuff sounds awesome, I've asked for similar stuff in the past too. It's all QOL, and would add a nice tone to the game.

menedhyn

Although I don't presently play PvP (but read what others say with interest), #6 sounds quite appealing. Otherwise, #1 definitely sounds like fun. I quite like the thought of one of my characters getting slowly mullered whilst slurring the words of old poems, songs and chants.

Milvan

You came up with really good ideas indeed. Perharps, one day we could see them implemented. After all, this is ZOS you know, so don't get very enthusiastic.

tinythinker

Milvan wrote: »

You came up with really good ideas indeed. Perharps, one day we could see them implemented. After all, this is ZOS you know, so don't get very enthusiastic.

I've been posting ideas for the game for a long time, so I don't expect a large portion to get snapped up, but sometimes you are surprised.

Rex-Umbra

Awesome suggestions.

KimberlyannKitsuragi

I don't do PvP. It's really confusing and a huge headache for me. I love your other ideas though

SlayerTheDragon

@tinythinker they could fire 10 staff members and replace them with just one of you.

Seratopia

#1 sounds fun.. If anyone here played POTCO some years ago they had bars where you sit your character down to play texas holdem and blackjack. You could bet your gold and winner takes pot. It was pretty fun, I'd like to see something similar in the inns.

Runefang

2 and 3 sound awesome, I don't care about 1,4-6 at all.

Runefang

SlayerTheDragon wrote: »

@tinythinker they could fire 10 staff members and replace them with just one of you.

It's easy to come up with ideas. Implementing them can be very difficult, nobody but the devs understand the limitations of the code/design.

tinythinker

Runefang wrote: »

SlayerTheDragon wrote: »

@tinythinker they could fire 10 staff members and replace them with just one of you.

It's easy to come up with ideas. Implementing them can be very difficult, nobody but the devs understand the limitations of the code/design.

There are always pie in the sky suggestions out there, which is why five of the six selected here primarily use code already in the game, just re-purposed & expanded for new mechanics/content. The one with the most new/original code in terms of ESO is #3, yet I've seen/used that system in other MMOs so it's definitely doable.

Sometimes it's easier to come with ideas, sometimes it's easier to code. That's why developers have teams of people who do each and leads to decided whether a good idea is worth the time to code. As a player I come up with ideas that I know can be done, either because of existing game features already in ESO or those known from other games and that seem to add something fun and give the game more depth.

It's up to the devs who read the forums for player feedback to decide which things to consider and which to ignore based on whether it fits the larger development schedule and the company's vision for the game. My goal in this thread was to share what seemed to be the most likely of my ideas to match the schedule/vision of development as indicated by ZOS' activity to date and elicit feedback from fellow players. What ZOS does with these ideas and those of other player is up to them, but it's still fun to discuss the possibilities

starkerealm

I've been asking for Fighters' Guild dailies for a couple months now... But, the Inn activities do sound like a good QoL for people.

Snowstrider

Everything but mostly PVE stuff.
Esos world does feel very dull and feels like nothing happens+could be fun to have something that brings the community together.
I always loved all events and activities most other mmos have and such a shame ZoS didnt add much life to their version of Tamriel because its one of my fav fantasy worlds

Carokube

Inn dailies, Guild dailies, whatever is great, there just needs to be *some* sort of base-game daily. Sure there are crafting writs, but those aren't exactly fun, immersive times. And yes of course Undaunted but sometimes there is not enough time for all that. I understand maybe they use the dailies as a selling point for the DLC, but if the rewards for base game dailies are things you could already find in base game what's the harm?

I am hoping they are just waiting to unleash these on us with One Tamriel, because, arguably, that would be the only way they could do them so all players found them useful and no new content needs to be built out.

tinythinker

carokubeb14_ESO wrote: »

I am hoping they are just waiting to unleash these on us with One Tamriel, because, arguably, that would be the only way they could do them so all players found them useful and no new content needs to be built out.

I had previously suggested my own version of One Tamriel to go with these ideas on the PvE side. Now there is less reason why they couldn't do them. The PvP side could get the new content/mechanics any time. They might even help out with the lag by spreading players out more

tinythinker

Snowstrider wrote: »

I always loved all events and activities most other mmos have and such a shame ZoS didnt add much life to their version of Tamriel because its one of my fav fantasy worlds

carokubeb14_ESO wrote: »

Inn dailies, Guild dailies, whatever is great, there just needs to be *some* sort of base-game daily. Sure there are crafting writs, but those aren't exactly fun, immersive times. And yes of course Undaunted but sometimes there is not enough time for all that. I understand maybe they use the dailies as a selling point for the DLC, but if the rewards for base game dailies are things you could already find in base game what's the harm?

Yeah, same. The base game needs attention, too. By improving it's value and playability, you get and keep more customers who you can then try to sell DLC to.