Be Honest... Sorcerers Got Hit Too Hard? (or didn't)

kaithuzar

lets be honest,

only bad sorcs are complaining it's not fotm anymore

Khaos_Bane

Yes, the nerf was over-the-top .

But hey, as long as STA DKs keep getting buffed Wrobel is happy.

DenMoria

Y'all are depressing. I'm running sorcerers right now and this is very discouraging.

Lord_Eomer

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

Yes, the nerf was over-the-top .

But hey, as long as STA DKs keep getting buffed Wrobel is happy.

Yea @Wrobel seems working only for buff stamina builds

Forestd16b14_ESO

No not really

TheHsN

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Molag_Crow wrote: »

I know it's a little old now but who else thinks Magicka Sorcs got hit too hard? specifically their shield duration, from 20 to 6 seconds (Not talking about the other morph.) that's a bit ridiculous to be honest I'm a Templar as well, I don't even play my Sorc, just saying..

are you for real? you got elegant set just last update. -.-

also, my stam dps probably has the same hp you do, and NO shield and I guarantee dies way less than you do.

l2p w/ mechanics -.-

i think u need to learn how to play!!! what with elegant set he always spam one button..if u want take that set u can have it

Xeven

If you compare the top stam sets to the top magicka sets, stam wins. If you compare the cost of stam abilities to the cost of magicka abilities, stam wins. If you compare the damage of stam abilities to the damage of magicka abilities, stam wins. If you compare the mobility of stam builds to the mobility of magicka builds, stam wins yet again.

The idea that magic has range so melee needs to be stronger is a fallacy, in this game at least. Most magicka builds are melee ranged anyway (magiblades/magiplars/magidks), and with the extremely powerful and wide variety of gap closers, all stam builds have no problems whatsoever remaining permanently glued to your face. The traditional advantages that ranged abilities have given in other games are greatly diminished under the combat mechanics of ESO.

That said I think stamina is generally in a good place, and magicka could use a slight buff across the board. I think Sypher said it best in his recent video. The gap between top end PvP damage and low end PvP damage is quite large. I think bringing the lower end of the damage spectrum up without nerfing the high end would go a long way towards balancing magicka vs stamina.

EDIT:
Posted this in wrong thread but still relevant. Reposting in mag vs stam thread.

Jimbullbee85

One got hit really hard with my soul strike this morning first time I've ever one hitted a sorc mwahaha. I'm loving it after all the misery that class caused in PVP. Git to admit though ZOS did go a bit OTT.

Khaos_Bane

Xeven wrote: »

If you compare the top stam sets to the top magicka sets, stam wins. If you compare the cost of stam abilities to the cost of magicka abilities, stam wins. If you compare the damage of stam abilities to the damage of magicka abilities, stam wins. If you compare the mobility of stam builds to the mobility of magicka builds, stam wins yet again.

The idea that magic has range so melee needs to be stronger is a fallacy, in this game at least. Most magicka builds are melee ranged anyway (magiblades/magiplars/magidks), and with the extremely powerful and wide variety of gap closers, all stam builds have no problems whatsoever remaining permanently glued to your face. The traditional advantages that ranged abilities have given in other games are greatly diminished under the combat mechanics of ESO.

Great post and absolutely agree on bolded statement. This game will always be STA focused with DK at the top of the food chain unless @Wrobel decides to move on to doing something else.

After the STA buffs I MUCH rather have a STA DPS group than magicka playing healer. STA does so much more damage.

raidentenshu_ESO

Yeah pretty much the DPS Sorcs got nerfed. I've always played as a mage in games that includes a mage class character and this game is the only game that I find it to be very unpleasant.

It isn't a learn to play moment but poor game mechanics. I firmly believe that PvP has a lot to do with this considering the fact that the company wants to "balance" things out.

Minalan

I changed my build, and I'm doing 'better' than I did before the patch. Most of that is because my play improved. My play improved because I'm using more skills and utilities to survive, and I'm paying closer attention to where I am and what I'm doing. Adaptation: confirmed.

The problem is that the time and gold investment in completely new gear, top end legendary everything, getting every single passive, etc. it's necessary to have a competitive Magicka sorc. Then after all that. I still do better with a half geared Templar.

The average sorc players are gone, because they couldn't perform at a decent level with this class. The skill floor increased, Templar and Nightblade are so easy to do well, there's no compelling reason to play something more difficult.

Of course great sorc players are still wrecking, they would wreck even with a naked Magicka DK. They know how to play. They know your weaknesses. They animation cancel. They have great reflexes.

Sorc isn't 'lol dead'! It needs a few tweaks to our passives for better Magicka cost and damage. It could use a tweak to our toggles, making them better and more balanced for the slot price. Shields could use an increase to 8 seconds, so that we don't have to stack as much sustain, and make it easier for an average player to avoid a stun gank. It needs a LITTLE smoothing out to be friendlier to a new player, and more attractive to everyone - not just an elitist few.

UltimaJoe777

No, I do not think they got hit hard. In fact, you can run Empowered Ward if you want extra duration. It lasts 10 seconds!

Minalan

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

No, I do not think they got hit hard. In fact, you can run Empowered Ward if you want extra duration. It lasts 10 seconds!

It's also a third weaker, about 8k. That's about one heavy attack and most other hits eat far into health. Most of us run one shield and maybe healing ward in DB because stacking two shields is too difficult to sustain in both cost and time.

Empowered ward is great for PVE though.

UltimaJoe777

Minalan wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

No, I do not think they got hit hard. In fact, you can run Empowered Ward if you want extra duration. It lasts 10 seconds!

It's also a third weaker, about 8k. That's about one heavy attack and most other hits eat far into health. Most of us run one shield and maybe healing ward in DB because stacking two shields is too difficult to sustain in both cost and time.

Empowered ward is great for PVE though.

I run Hardened Ward myself for the extra shield strength since my Sorc running it is pure DPS and 6 seconds is plenty of duration. I do wonder if there is a Damage Shield cap though...

BlackguardBob

ESO is too old now for balance changes imo. After over two years of the same four classes the devs ought to have got this figured out well before this time and let us, the paying players, get on with our play style.

Ongoing balances of classes is now looking like interference from the designers of this game since its inception almost a decade ago!

We don't all get things right first time and I am happy with any and all changes, good and bad, if it is in the best interest of the game as a whole for the long term future. But to make a career of nerfing and buffing as a matter of routine is to me, unsatisfactory.

My main is a pet mage and I do know how to play this class in most situations. I have spent lots of real money, game money real time and real effort (as most of you have) to try to as some of you put it, "git gud" I have tried to L2P ESO because I was not born with the ESO hand guide attached to my wrist. I play solo and learn my way.

So when I begin to understand a class it is annoying to have to adjust my play style in a way that is alien to me, I begin to lose the will to live.

Currently, I have gone from being a flashy wizard that has conquered in a completely solo career everything PvE with a pet mage (I don't use my back bar or a resto staff), to one that is playing very defensively, dodge rolling and healing, with the occasional spell thrown in. Rinse and repeat.

My class is useless in PvP and is easily one-shotted but then I don't play there (anymore).

So if I want to play with my pet mage in the gigantic land of Tamriel in doing the stuff that ESO throws at me every day and happy to do so, what's with the interference from the game makers? What is it to them? They would do well to fix ESO and play about with their Crown Store and leave all things classes be.

I played Skyrim for 3 1/2 years (right up to the eve of console launch) and thoroughly enjoyed it. Skyrim was buggy as hell but I could play this game without interference. I made adjustments to counter the bugs, but what I cannot do is play with a mage of my own creating, with much love, a labour of love, and then curse my luck when I see that changes to the class have been made after all this time the game has been in the public domain.

We were told last year that it was "time to let the game breathe" after drastic wholesale changes were made to ESO. That's fine then but us players need to play with our loved characters, for which we put so much effort into, we would just prefer that as paying customers, that we be left to enjoy ESO.

Fix the game but leave the classes.

Egonieser

Molag_Crow wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

Sorcerers are still #1 in Veteran Maelstrom and still considered easy and that is the hardest content there is for solo...

So they did not get hit that hard and shields had to go, you had them tanking anything and while they still can do it the duration makes mistakes more likely to happen.

In the end they can still pop a shield and laugh at the opposition, but it now requires better timing and can`t be on 24/7.

I doubt they will see buffs when they can top the charts...

True that. Almost every single Flawless Conq I've seen is a Sorc ^^

Yeah, which they acquired before the sorcerer nerf, which was a number of months to achieve it in.

Father_X_Zombie

Doncellius wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

The good Sorcs are still good and the bad Sorcs are no longer playing Sorcs.

You are half right.....

The (few) good Sorcs are still good.

The bad sorcs can no longer play that class half-decently anymore.

Both good and bad sorcs are often rerolling to the other three classes which were all buffed significantly, rather than nerfed. Vet rank removal also made this easy and gave people the ability to easily switch out of Sorcerer to try new classes. Many good Sorcs are playing other classes now too because they're good players who play by the meta.

Now Sorcerers are rare in Cyrodiil. If I had to realisticly lay this out, I'd say the general Cyrodiil population these days is around:
Dragonknights: 23%
Nightblades: 35%
Templars: 32%
Sorcerers: 10%

Shield duration nerf should not apply to PvE. Surge needs to be buffed. Pets need to get massive buffs. Bound Armaments needs a buff..... nothing's gonna happem though

Nbs seem to be 70% from what I've seen

Grao

'Some classes are just better than others'

- Balance by @Wrobel - 2016

Tryxus

Grao wrote: »

'Some classes are just better than others'

- Balance by @Wrobel - 2016

I kinda wonder now: if the meta shifts and either DK or NB become the worst classes, are they gonna quote that too?

Grao

Tryxus wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

'Some classes are just better than others'

- Balance by @Wrobel - 2016

I kinda wonder now: if the meta shifts and either DK or NB become the worst classes, are they gonna quote that too?

They should. DPS balance is not something easy to achieve and I understand that, but what we have right now is a complete disaster, not just with sorcerers, but Magika builds in general are struggling. One thing I don't understand though, this game prides it self in allowing every class to play very well in multiple roles, but at least when sorcerers are concerned, @Wrobel has hugely failed. We are the worse tanks, our healing is reliant on a toggle pet with 8k health... It just doesn't work.

The way I see it every class in ESO should shine in one PvE role, there are mainly 4 roles and there are 4 classes, so it should be easy, unfortunately what we have:

Dragonknights: Best Stamina DPS / Best Tanks
Templars: Best Healers / Best Magika DPS (probably)
Nightblades: ??? / Best in PvP?
Sorcerers: ??? / ???

I also believe each class should have at least one strong DPS alternative and one other strong role. This is how I think it should be:

Dragonknights: Stamina DPS / Tank
Templars: Magika DPS / Healers
Nightblades: Stamina DPS / Tank (or Healer)
Sorcerers: Magika DPS / Healer (or Tank)

As for how I think DPS should work:

Melee Magika DPS = Melee Stamina DPS + 1k = Ranged Magika DPS + 2k = Ranged Stamina DPS + 3k

The reasoning being that melee builds should always do more DPS as they are at greater risk and that magika builds are obviously more fragile and usually build as 'glass cannon'.

We couldn't be further from any ideal scenario and yet a DLC is being released soon without a single balance change to any class. For me it looks like @Wrobel gave up on balancing the game, even the changes to racial passives are not finely tuned.

Sigma957

I'm having fun in pvp with a sorc magic build, she's got mobility and hits hard. I use surge mainly for the 20% extra spell damage plus having it slotted gives you increase weap/spell damage. Shields only come into play when you need to escape or mitigate some damage.

Sandman929

My mag sorc is now a heavy armor AoE breach monster, Wall of Elements, Lightning Flood, the occasional Negate as the horde tries to push in and of course many disintegrations. Loads of fun...people need to trying making a few builds that aren't about THEM winning, but about US winning.

Kammakazi

and my proudest score :') 3rd run ever on my converted Breton Stamina Sorcerer

Mojmir

honestly,no sorcs are fine

leepalmer95

Sorc are still fine, the good ones actually got a buff this patch, now they can stack their 25k-30k shields against stamina builds.

People complain about shield stacking, zos buff's it.

#ZosLogic.

Averya_Teira

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

Healing and shields and blocking has been nerfed and dodging got a buff.

Time to add a cool down between dodging attacks me thinks!

I think dodge/block/break free should use a third stat....

It's cool and all to try and follow the ES lore with stamina, but it just doesn't work in an MMO environment, too difficult to balance stuff.

Averya_Teira

Grao wrote: »

'Some classes are just better than others'

- Balance by @Wrobel - 2016

Did the lead class dev (or whatever his title is) really say that ?

His WHOLE JOB is that this quote DOESN'T HAPPEN.....

Averya_Teira

Kammakazi wrote: »

and my proudest score :') 3rd run ever on my converted Breton Stamina Sorcerer

That's a solo instance.... You can't balance an MMO with solo content....

Flaminir

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sorc are still fine, the good ones actually got a buff this patch, now they can stack their 25k-30k shields against stamina builds.

People complain about shield stacking, zos buff's it.

#ZosLogic.

I really don't have a problem with the shield nerf... I don't like it.... but have learnt to adapt.... but I really do have to say here that to describe it as a buff is horribly out of tune in reality rather than looking at it on paper.

Shield stacking is very much a PvP thing I'm sure we can agree....

If in the heat of a PvP battle you think it's a 'buff' to have to bar swap, cast two skills, and the swap to your attack bar... throughout the lag, and an opponent attacking you.... all in the knowledge that the shield you cast 3 or 4 seconds ago is about to expire in another 2-3 seconds (& requires you to swap bars & start all over again) then I think you are very much mistaken.

Its a nerf plain and simple.

Higher magicka cost due to constant recasting, far more attention required.... having to use a shield more as a reactive defense rather than pro active (Which is a HUGE problem in the current meta of high burst damage stamina builds, and low resistance light armor/magicka builds).

imredneckson

I hate playing a sorc but wow whos idea was it to nerf sorc shields down to 6 seconds (just going to guess it was the same person who nerfed DKs to what they have been for the past year). It was too much imo and I hate fighting/playing a sorc.

Idea for changing it -- give their shields back some better time 10 seconds at the least or just double it to 12 seconds......AND BUFF DK's DRAGONS BLOOD ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!