None of the available Stamina heals are viable under heavy fire, Stamina healers are impossible.

Azurephoenix999

I've brought this up before and was shot down. Here, I'm going to try again and explain why I feel that this is something that we need.

Vigor simply can't stand against heavy fire (except possibly with a min/maxed build with max stamina, weapon damage/crit chance/damage all driven to their absolute limits), neither can rally, blood craze, or really any of the class-exclusive stamina heals. Even in the event a min/maxed build can get them to heal a decent amount, there's no way it would be viable for the whole team, some of which might rely heavily on heals. This is entirely due to the fact that all of the heals we have for Stamina do healing over time, rather than all at once.

With Vigor as an example, it heals from around 1-4K of health per second, depending on the stats mentioned above. Sure, it might be good enough for the solo player that knows how to dodge, but it's pretty much impossible to have a viable stamina-based healer that the team can rely on.

"Just switch to Magicka." So far, there have been stamina tanks and Magicka tanks (with damage shields and all), Stamina dps and Magicka dps, but only Magicka healers. Not once have I seen a Stamina-based healer build that's remotely good enough to compare with Magicka. It's entirely due to the lack of viable Stamina-based heals, and not "It can work, but only if I dodge and block all attacks for 5 seconds" kind of viable, I mean in an "Oh my god, we're all about to die. Quick, heal us!" kind of way. Magicka heals are more than capable of doing that, but Stamina heals aren't.

Why are viable builds possible for both attributes in 2/3 combat roles, but only one attribute in the 3rd?

I mean, we could just switch to Magicka, but this is a huge imbalance that needs to be rectified. Otherwise it's simply not fair.

"I've got 40K Stamina, high weapon damage, crit chance, etc. and my Vigor heals me 3K health every second. It's good enough." It's good for you, since you likely know how to dodge and block properly. However, there are some situations in which blocking and dodging is impossible and healing is absolutely necessary in order to prevail. Maybe a boss casts a channel spell on you that can't be interrupted, or you're getting burned alive by fire that latched onto you when you stepped in it and won't go away (White-Gold Tower has daedroth that do this, only problem is there's sometimes a bug that doesn't show the fire on the ground or around you. It looks like your health is just going down for no reason).

Even if by some inconceivable miracle you manage to survive, you can't expect it to work for everybody. There are some people who rely heavily on healing in order to maximise their contribution to the team. They won't be able to survive purely on Vigor.

We need stamina heals that affect the whole team and are viable under heavy fire.

"It doesn't make logical sense for stamina to be used for healing spells (believe it or not I've actually seen people making this argument)." What the hell do you call Vigor? Combat medics are a thing in the real world.

"Vigor/Rally will become worthless!" Vigor is dirt cheap in terms of stamina cost and takes time to heal. It has its uses, but it simply won't work in an emergency. The ability I am thinking of will have a significantly higher stamina cost, but will heal instantly so as to make it useful in scenarios where a ton of healing is necessary. Give more stamina, receive health faster. I don't see why so many people are against allowing people to make that trade. As for Rally, that could probably use a buff to keep it worth using.

EDIT: If you STILL believe that Vigor would become worthless if an ability like this were to be introduced, then why not just turn Vigor into that ability? If your response to that question was "no", then think about why that is. Congratulations, you now have your answer as to why Vigor would not be made worthless as a result of this.

I don't care what anybody says. There are a whole bunch of magicka-based healing spells that can effectively save a team from wiping out, and of the few heals we have for Stamina, none of them are instant. We NEED this, even if the puritans on this website refuse to admit it.

Lynx7386

I'm pretty certain that stamina group-healing was never intended to be possible in this game. The stamina heals currently in-game are designed for damage-dealers and tanks to use to keep themselves alive or mitigate incoming damage, not to keep the entire group alive. Vigor, being a pvp ability, heals the user as well as nearby allies, because pvp is balanced around group combat in this game. It still will never hold up to a magicka character using resto staff abilities (or templar healing abilities) though.

Working as intended, IMO.

Azurephoenix999

Lynx7386 wrote: »

I'm pretty certain that stamina group-healing was never intended to be possible in this game. The stamina heals currently in-game are designed for damage-dealers and tanks to use to keep themselves alive or mitigate incoming damage, not to keep the entire group alive. Vigor, being a pvp ability, heals the user as well as nearby allies, because pvp is balanced around group combat in this game. It still will never hold up to a magicka character using resto staff abilities (or templar healing abilities) though.

Working as intended, IMO.

That's the thing, we have magicka and stamina versions of the other roles, why does healer have to be a magicka-exclusive role? There's got to be a reason behind ZOS' decision.

Lynx7386

There probably is a reason, but they arent going to give it to us.

Brutusmax1mus

Changing anything at this point will make the game explode . No more changes until everything is fixed in terms of lag, skills, bugs.

Either way i don't like this idea. Stamina is about physicality.

Amdar_Godkiller

What about that new set that boosts AOE, Varen's Legacy I think, could that be used in conjunction with echoing vigor and/or a another set to ,make echoing Vigor a viable PVE heal? I've never made a healer, but was wondering about this today.

code65536

I would rather that stamina and magicka retain what little distinction that remains.

We neither need nor want stamina to just be magicka with different cosmetic dressing.

Azurephoenix999

code65536 wrote: »

I would rather that stamina and magicka retain what little distinction that remains.

We neither need nor want stamina to just be magicka with different cosmetic dressing.

Oh sure, by all means. Take one of the three combat roles, the one that's arguably the most important, and make it Magicka exclusive for the sake of making things "different".

By that logic, I suppose that means tanking should become Stamina exclusive, to balance things out.

Oh, and be careful how you respond to this proposal, because you could end up looking like a hypocrite.

Smasherx74

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I would rather that stamina and magicka retain what little distinction that remains.

We neither need nor want stamina to just be magicka with different cosmetic dressing.

Oh sure, by all means. Take one of the three combat roles, the one that's arguably the most important, and make it Magicka exclusive for the sake of making things "different".

By that logic, I suppose that means tanking should become Stamina exclusive, to balance things out.

Oh, and be careful how you respond to this proposal, because you could end up looking like a hypocrite.

I don't understand your analogy, can you explain?

I suppose you're trying to get across

Tank = Stam/Magicka
DPS = Stam/Magicka
Healer = Magicka

We have stamina self heals and vigor as the group heals. Vigor alone cannot heal a group and unless we devote a weapon tree's abilities to stamina heals/buffs stams will never heal.

Destruent

Vigor is extremely strong. You can definitely heal vet-dungeons with vigor, for vICP and vWGT you would need one or 2 more vigor users, but it's doable. we also did vDSA without any magicka builds which results in higher DPS, better sustain and better healing in most situations.
Vigor is strong. If not, you and your team have to adjust their builds and playstyle.

Steel_Brightblade

I've healed pick up groups on pledges with my stamina sorcerer using just vigour, wouldn't have trusted it on vicp and and wgt though Niue they've been nerfed it could be worth a shot. As a stamina sorcerer I guess I could rely on pet, wouldn't be ideal as its based of magic but could be enough while using vigour to complement each other. But OP is right in that I am over 40K stamina near perfect gear for high damage and high crit chance.

Vangy

Destruent wrote: »

Vigor is extremely strong. You can definitely heal vet-dungeons with vigor, for vICP and vWGT you would need one or 2 more vigor users, but it's doable. we also did vDSA without any magicka builds which results in higher DPS, better sustain and better healing in most situations.
Vigor is strong. If not, you and your team have to adjust their builds and playstyle.

2 vigor users won't help I think. It dosent stack with itself. I've done pledges with no healers before though. Granted it was all experienced players and was no where near as hard as the initial vICP or vwgt.

WhoThenNow7

Healing seems more like a magic ability than a stamina ability.. I mean you want to know why, well because that's just the way it is. And if everything was equal then honestly what would be the paint in there even being magic and stamina?

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Honestly strong stamina based heals really don't make any sense to me. Magicka based players can do massive heals because they cannot block or dodge as much. Stamina users can dodge and/or block a lot, mitigating damage, thus not needing super strong heals.

This is the balance in just about every game out there. Vigor is already insanely strong. Heck, even in PvP where the healing is reduced I get 2.2k ticks (crit) and that's with a heavy armor tank build. Even when I play damage dealer I still was only hitting around 2.4k tics (crit) in PvP, that was with 4.1k weapon damage and 30k stamina (I run drinks so stam is lower).

That's just talking PvP. In PvE stamina heals are amazing! Vigor+rally+blood thirst=you will never die. Plus having shuffle up and dodge rolling like a stamina class is meant to do you will do fine. If you are a stamina user trying to heal a group you are just wrong. You can make any excuse or argument you want but in the end it's ridiculous to expect to be able to do EVERY possible job/roll. You might as well get rid of stamina and magicka and have just one type of resource pool. That over simplifies the game and the game will be worthless.

code65536

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I would rather that stamina and magicka retain what little distinction that remains.

We neither need nor want stamina to just be magicka with different cosmetic dressing.

Oh sure, by all means. Take one of the three combat roles, the one that's arguably the most important, and make it Magicka exclusive for the sake of making things "different".

By that logic, I suppose that means tanking should become Stamina exclusive, to balance things out.

Oh, and be careful how you respond to this proposal, because you could end up looking like a hypocrite.

Bah, that's a red herring. Tanks are hybrids. A "magicka" tank should have lots of stamina and a "stamina" tank should have lots of magicka. And all tanks have a lot of that other stat, you know, the red one.

You're just arguing for stamina heals out of a misguided sense of "balance"--the kind of useless "balance" that removes meaningful distinctions and variety from the game and makes everything just a flavor reskin. If you want to be a group healer, roll magicka. There is--and absolutely should be--limits to "play how you want" lest it gets ridiculous.

Stannum

Have you ever seen how vSoA is nuked with 4 stamina DD with vigor in about 15 minutes?

tnanever

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

I've brought this up before and was shot down. Here, I'm going to try again and explain why I feel that this is some

Vigor simply can't stand against heavy fire (except possibly with a min/maxed build with max stamina, weapon damage/crit chance/damage all driven to their absolute limits), neither can rally, blood craze, or really any of the class-exclusive stamina heals. Even in the event a min/maxed build can get them to heal a decent amount, there's no way it would be viable for the whole team, some of which might rely heavily on heals. This is entirely due to the fact that all of the heals we have for Stamina do healing over time, rather than all at once.
.
.
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I'm not necessarily against stamina-based primary healers, but I am against it as the game stands now due to the fact that blocking/breakfree/dodge is based on that same resource, meaning magicka-focused healers make that significant sacrifice, while stamina-based healers would not.

This is a symptom of a larger issue - resource stacking for skill effectiveness. We either need to decouple, or implement diminishing returns (or softcaps).

Nirnrotten

We need a new class with Stamina heals. That nature based, spinner/shaman/druid with stamina heals n buffs for the party. It's in the works ;-) but shhhhhhhhh!!

holosoul

Nirnrotten wrote: »

We need a new class with Stamina heals. That nature based, spinner/shaman/druid with stamina heals n buffs for the party. It's in the works ;-) but shhhhhhhhh!!

very funny
would be OP as !@#$

Amdar_Godkiller

It wouldn't require reinventing the wheel. Just a couple solid sets designed to facillitate stamina heals. 

One set could increase the size of the area of effect, and another the strength of HOTs by 50%, providing stam regen, weapon's crit, weapon's damage, healing done, and max stam as well. 

And Circle of Protection could have one morph converted into a wide area weak heal. For the amount of resources it costs, that seems reasonable. And Momentum's other Morph could become a +1 heal.

Another possibility would be to give echoing vigor a synergy-like effect when two group members have it running at the same time.

As though the two heals were "echoing" and amplifying one another.

Lynx7386

Nirnrotten wrote: »

We need a new class with Stamina heals. That nature based, spinner/shaman/druid with stamina heals n buffs for the party. It's in the works ;-) but shhhhhhhhh!!

That could certainly be an option but I dont see it happening.

Talyena

Stamina healers will just have to suck it up and use some magica the same way magica tanks have to use stamina to block, break free and roll dodge. Healing springs returns magic based on the number of people healed. Honor the dead for templars returns 60% of the cost if you heal someone under 75% health. The idea of not using any magica to heal is as big a stretch as not using any stamina to tank. A stamina healer is just going to have to mix it up the same way a magica tank does.

Shaun98ca2

So once upon a time there was a difference between Magicka and Stamina.

Magicka was DPS that was Frontloaded Burst damage that drops to nonexistent when the user ran out of Magicka.

A Stamina User had Sustained damage and Utility and increased survivability via Magicka abilities + Stamina abilities + increased dodge roll and block.

When a Magicka user ran outta Magicka DPS would fall off the map as opposed to a Stamina user who had increased Weapon Damage on top of Magicka and Stamina abilities due to it was never meant to be Magicka Frontloaded Burst damage.

Problem was Magicka for pure Magicka users NEVER ran out. So the fix was Stamina never runs out. Now the lines between Magicka and Stamina are just a blur as now we have our class abilities turning to Stamina.

I say the fix was wrong a long time ago. Stamina needed some boosts, While Magicka needed some Nerfs but there should have been a different play style between the 2.

While we were supposed to get Spellcrafting to increase Magicka we should have also gotten Thieves Guild and Dark Brother Hood as Stamina Lines, as well as Fighters Guild Should have also been a Stamina Line with probably some very different abilities.

ESO was once upon a time too much Magicka based. Now its just too focused on DPS. Personally I would have much more enjoyed an MMO that didn't focus on DPS.

NativeJoe

Well... I'm sure you can figure out a wierd way to it sir. I for one figured out a way to Tank without HP and full magicka build, and not need a healer. I can heal at a constant rate of about 30k per sec, with bursts up to 75k ish region per sec. and For a dream build combat physician +trinimac would be my healing set as a sorc since I already stack bastion and it was be an insane combo. ( I'm a magicka sorc)

likewise I'm sure you could figure out a wierd combo. I can't simply pick up a restoration staff and call myself a healer anymore then you can pick up vigor and do the same. I'm sure there is something outlandish you can do, or have the group do. VMOL has some wierd on synergy heals, There's trinimac which on shield drops a healing totem (boneshield counts! and on synergy it applies to the whole group so... perhaps...twilights remedy and trinimac... idk just throwing it out there off the top of my head. slot blood fountain too..and u can prolly keep a group up. the synergy would provide burst heal and damage mitigation, ur vigor and blood fountain would supply healing over time...and I think it would definitely be good enough for SO.

and come on I deserve an insightful for this tid bit of theory crafting a stamina based healer :"P ... don't be put off by the magicka sets... I wear stamina based sets in pvp and wreck people as magicka sorc lol

But I stand by my conclusion. A stamina based healer is COMPLETELY POSSIBLE! you just have to think a bit outside the meta FOTM box.

Waffennacht

I can tell you right now: PvP

Give a class higher armor, more damage, more abilities, shuffle, cc break, roll AND a heal as good as the best magicka move

Not even a remote chance of balance

Shaun98ca2

Then I would make something between a Medium Armor Tank, Templar, Bow/Restro Staff build. Maybe a mix of Mostly Medium Armor with Heavy Armor.

Amdar_Godkiller

What about Trinimac?

A Stam DK could probably run  trinimac and alternate between Igneous Shield (casting 4 damage shields on 
yourself and your group that hopefully all attempt to proc Trinimac's passive; grant major mending [+30% healing]
and return 5% of max stamina ),then  Igneous weapons (Grants your whole group Major Brutality and Major Sorcery 
which buffs healing another 20% or so and gives you minor brutality plus another 5% stamina return), and then 
cast fully buffed Vigor.

5 Hundling
1 Kena
1 Trinimac

1 Agility Necklace
2 Trinimac Rings

Trinimac S&B

Agility DW

Faulgor

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

"It doesn't make logical sense for stamina to be used for healing spells (believe it or not I've actually seen people making this argument)."

I believe it, because it's the argument I'd make.

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

What the hell do you call Vigor?

A huge mistake by the developers that homogenized builds and prioritized solo over group play.


Vigor is already the strongest HoT in the game. If you want to make a stamina-based healer, you'll find a way.

Amdar_Godkiller

Talyena wrote: »

The idea of not using any magica to heal is as big a stretch ...

I disagree. Healing =/= magic. I'm 90% sure my doctor is not a black magician, but the man can heal with the best of them.

The one issue I do have is with magic and stam heals scaling to spell power/weapon damage. This is abusrd

Heals should scale to max resources alone. For Stam Heals it should scale to Max Stam and Max Health and for magic heals, Max Magic and Max Health.

Healing needs to be liberated from the damage dealing equations.

coyteriarwb17_ESO

This is the problem with this game. Stamina abilities shouldnt have healing abilities. It shouldn't have any ability that logically should require magicka.

coyteriarwb17_ESO

ZoS do not know how to prioritise the classes properly hence the stupidity that is stamina sorcerer. It should have been exclusive to magicka. night blade should have been stamina. Dragon knight should have been stamina. Templar should have been magicka. Not some abominations.

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

I'm pretty certain that stamina group-healing was never intended to be possible in this game. The stamina heals currently in-game are designed for damage-dealers and tanks to use to keep themselves alive or mitigate incoming damage, not to keep the entire group alive. Vigor, being a pvp ability, heals the user as well as nearby allies, because pvp is balanced around group combat in this game. It still will never hold up to a magicka character using resto staff abilities (or templar healing abilities) though.

Working as intended, IMO.

That's the thing, we have magicka and stamina versions of the other roles, why does healer have to be a magicka-exclusive role? There's got to be a reason behind ZOS' decision.

Why does blocking, cc break/roll dodge have to be stamina exclusive?